[Fatelvis]

Does anyone load castbullets for use in thier Garand or M1A? If so, what bullet and load do you use? Thanks!-

[hps1]

No one that I am aware of use cast bullets in the gas guns. I suspect they would not feed reliably at the velocities you would be held to w/lead bullets. Barrel leading would also be a concern to me w/lead. JMHO, have never tried them myself.

You can get bulk 147 gr. FMJ bullets for around $67.00 per thousand and, while they are not match bullets, they are accurate enough for HP practice and/or plinking and will definately shoot as well as most service rifles that are not match tuned. These bullets are nearly identical to those used in M2 Ball and the 7.62 NATO ball ammo. There are also several sources for pulled GI 150 gr. bullets. IIRC www.ammoman.com is one of these suppliers.

Regards,
hps

[Gewehr98]

Not a good idea. Unless you're looking for a single-shot firearm within x-number of rounds. (lead fouling of the gas port in the barrel) ;)

[David Wile]

Hey Fat,

I hate to disagree with HP & G98, so I will try to do so in an agreeable manner. Concerning the use of cast bullets in the M1 Garand, I know of many folks who use cast bullets in them quite effectively. I personally use the Lyman 311466 Loverin design bullet which is gas checked, weighs almost 155 grains, and has a short ogive round nose and lots of bearing surface with lube grooves. I size them to .310, and they work quite well in all three of my Garands. They function flawlessly and do not lead the barrel. I know G98 is a pretty sharp guy, and I value his knowlegde on many things. He is wrong, however, about cast bullets making the Garand a single shot firearm. The cast bullet I described above is well lubed, and, with a gas check, gan be driven well over 2,000 FPS without leading the bore.

I have no experience with cast bullets in the M14, so I cannot comment on it. I do know G98 has a good bit of first-hand knowledge of the M14, but it may not be with cast bullets. In any case, I respectfully disagree with HP and G98 about cast bullets in the Garand. I would suspect there will be others who will comment on their use of cast bullets in the Garand.

To G98: I still have not made the leap to an M14 as yet. I just cannot bring myself to shell out what is required for an M1A, and especially with some of the problems folks seem to be reporting lately on them. I am tempted to get an Armscorp receiver for $379, but complete M14 (less receiver) parts kits have seemed to dry up now. I really would like one, but I have been retired since 1997 and spending that kind of money is a bit much for me. Maybe some day I will come across a good deal on a parts kit and finally do it. After all, I have about a dozen original GI magazines and nothing to use them in. They really need a rifle to keep them company.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

[Gewehr98]

You said the magic word - gas check.

I'll even run gas-checked bullets through my Desert Eagle, no sweat.

But 9 out of 10 times, if a person is talking about cast bullets, they usually skip that all-important little copper cup on the base of their cast bullets. It's the mark of a serious bullet caster when they add the finishing touch. I've always wondered if a well-lubed, paper-patched cast bullet would also do well in a gas-operated gun, without shaving off stuff into the gas port.

Some of my guns run a goodly amount of gas-checked bullets, to include my 10" Wichita Silhouette Pistol, Remington Model 8, and .45-70 Ruger #1S. I wouldn't dare try to run 405gr cast bullets over 2000 fps if they weren't protected on their posteriors with that little bit of copper. ;)

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/images/bullets/45RIFLE-400-LFNGC.jpg

(Nor would I run a plain-based cast bullet through a M1A/M14/M1/BM-59/AR-15/FAL/AR-10/BAR/740/AK/SKS/FN-49/DR-200/etc.)

[hps1]

Hi David:

As I said, Barrel leading would also be a concern to me w/lead. JMHO, have never tried them myself.

Your experience trumps my best guess!:) Used cast bullets many years ago but never in a gas gun. I wasn't very specific in my post but leading in the port area was my concern, also.

I have loaded some light loads for the Garand for some junior shooters but we used FMJ bullets, just reduced the load to help w/recoil. Never checked velocity, but had no function problems with those either.

Regards,
hps

[Fatelvis]

Dave&98, thanks. I did mean a gas checked bullet. Ive been reading elsewhere, that some guys are shooting more than 500 cast (and GC`ed) loads through thier Garand , before cleaning, with no malfuntions. In fact, a few experienced cast shooters say that the whole "cast bullet-in a gas gun no-no" is a myth. Im looking into it because Im really getting into casting my own bullets, and I see that in my 303s, they are slower,but more accurate than the jacketed bullets. (Even the SMK bullet). I figured in my worn, Garand barrel, it would be worth a try! I didnt plan on trying it in my $2500 match ready M1A. (Im not THAT curious!) My decision lies in what Lyman mould to buy. After all, they`re not cheap enough to buy a bunch, and try them all out!

[Steve Smith]

How about.....


The Speer "Plinker" bullet? It is definitely a low cost option, and I have heard of excelent 100 yard accuracy. Its a half-jacketed lead bullet.

[Fatelvis]

Steve, thats a thought! My question is: will that light of a bullet, change the weapons cyclic ability?

[Steve Smith]

I'm sure...but I'm sure that you could find a good load. Perhaps contact Speer and ask.

[David Wile]

Hey folks,

Here I go again disagreeing with someone. Again, I hope I do it in a reasonable way.

In this case, I refer to Steve's suggestion of using a half jacket bullet. If Steve is refering to the type of half jacket bullets that have been around since I started reloading, then I would disagree with that idea. Half jackets offer the worst of both worlds - cast and jacketed. The jacketed part of the bullet wears on the bore just like any full jacketed bullet. The exposed lead part of the bullet has traditionally been dead soft lead without any lube in grooves. The soft, un-lubed lead is more prone to bore leading than hard cast bullets, expecially hard cast bullets with ample lube grooves and a gas check. If the Speer half jackets are made differently today, then my thoughts on the matter may be missing the barn by about nine yards. If they are essentially the same as traditional half jackets, however, I would not suggest them.

Fat also brings up a very good point about the proper functioning of the rifle with a real light weight bullet. For most semi-auto weapons, I would think you would want to keep bullet weight within some reasonable range for which the weapon was designed. For instance, using 180 grain bullets in the M1 Garand is very likely to have deleterious effects on the op-rod due to increased pressures developed in the use of heavier bullets. Most folks stick with bullets 170 grains or less with the Garand for that reason. I do not know how low you can go in bullet weight with the Garand, but, at some point, I would suspect that reliable functioning would fall off.

Like G98 said, a gas check on a hard cast bullet makes a big difference, and, after reading his last post, I would bet G98 would not hesitate to use a hard cast gas checked bullet in his M14 or M1A also. Whether you will get as good results with a cast bullet as you do with a jacketed bullet is a whole different matter, however. Generally speaking, it is hard to beat jacketed bullet accuracy in modern firearms, and especially at long ranges. I doubt that anyone could really compete in a present day high power match while using cast bullets, but that does not mean there is no use for cast bullets in modern semi-auto rifles.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

[Steve Smith]

Half jackets offer the worst of both worlds - cast and jacketed.

Ok, I'll bite, if both copper and lead are the worst, what's best and why do we use either? What magic bullet material are you using that has neither the problems asociated with copper or lead? Why have you not patented the idea and sold rights to Sierra, Speer, Hornady, et al?

The Plinker has the copper jacketing entire bearing surface.

The purpose of the Plinker is cost savings. Yes, it will wear at the same rate as the copper jacket.

[David Wile]

Hey Steve,

I really did not mean to give any offense in my previous comments.

When I suggested that half jackets offer the worst of both worlds - cast and jacketed, I was referring to the kind of half jackets I have been familiar with since the mid 1960s. The traditional half jacket of which I am familiar had a bearing surface which was truly half copper and half pure lead. I am not familiar with a half jacket bullet that has a copper jacket along the entire bearing surface. To me, such a bullet would truly be a jacketed bullet. In the case of traditional half jackets, the lead portion of the bullet was dead soft and had no lubrication. When such a bullet went up a bore, the soft lead bearing surface contacted the lands and grooves of the bore just as the copper portion of the bullet did. Driving soft lead half jacket bullets out a rifled barrel was quite conducive to serious lead fouling, and many folks never made (or understood) a distinction between a half jacket bullet and a hard cast bullet with lubrication and a gas check.

I did not mean to suggest that copper and lead are inappropriate to use for the construction of bullet. I only meant to suggest the use of a half jacket bullet with a dead soft lead bearing surface was probably not a good idea. No, I do not have any magic material to patent. Heck, I never had an original idea in my life.

The "Plinker" you have described as having a copper jacket along the entire bearing surface certainly would not be "the worst of both worlds" as I suggested. I would, however, suggest that such a bullet certainly is not what has traditionally been considered a half jacket bullet. I do use both jacketed and cast bullets in my shooting, and I really would not want anyone to think I would suggest that either type had no value.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

[Lucky Jim]

I know lots of people say don't do it and I have asked the same question but I have and do shoot cast, gas checked, 165 grain bullets in my M1A. I simply turn the gas port off and fire away. I have never had a leading problem and it is actually pretty accurate out to 200 meters. I load single rounds only and have never tried these through a magazine. I use 28 grains of RL #7 powder, 165 grain cast-gas checked bullet I get from a local fellow that sells them to cast bullet shooters. Quite a few around these parts. I use a Winchester Large Rifle primer and usually Winchester brass. I am under 2,000 FPS with this load. I shoot twice per month in a local cast bullet Silhoutte match where many guys use M1A and Garands shooting cast bullets. I have not seen anyone have a problem. Gas checks are essential though. I know for a fact that the shooters using gas operated rifles do not push the velocities too high. Usually slower is better anyways. It can be done and with great success. Just keep them at a reasonable velocity and USE GAS CHECKS. No problem. With this load if I turn the gas on and load a single round it will fully cycle each time and lock the bolt back on an empty mag. You can shoot lead forever, it seems, and not have to worry about wear to your barrel. You may hear horror stories about plugging up your gas system but I have not seen that happen with the shooters that regularly use cast bullets. I am sure someone has had it happen and I am not saying it has not, or will not happen. It is just that I have not seen it happen and I fire over 200 rounds per month through my M1A. Gool Luck-

[Steve Smith]

Thank you for clarifying that. I felt that "worst of both worlds" was somewhat misleading.

FWIW, I would try a hard cast water dropped oven hardened lead bullet with a gas check. I think it would be fine. Worst case is that you find out is sucks and have to clean some lead out. It certainly won't hurt the gun.

If you need info on how to oven harden, let me know.

[Fatelvis]

David, I cant find that 311466 mould. Did they discontinue that style? Is the Loverin design like the "Bore Rider" design?

[David Wile]

Hey Fat,

I just looked in the Lyman 2002 Catalog, and it does seem they have dropped the 311466 from their line. That is disappointing when I consider that it was the first mould I started casting with almost forty years ago, and it has served me well in a lot of different 30 caliber rifles. If you want to see what the 311466 Loverin design looked like, check a Lyman catalog and look at bullet 323470, a 165 grain in 8MM. The 311466 looked exactly like the 323470 with the obvious exceptions for caliber and weight. If you check Lyman's internet site and get the phone number for their Customer Relations, you may find they still have some in stock or you may find they will refer you to someone who still has the mould in stock.

I checked my 2001 RCBS catalog and could not find any 30 caliber bullet similar to the old 311466 Loverin design. Lyman's 311672 is only 160 grains and has a short ogive, but it has only one or two lube grooves (depending if you use one for a crimp groove) along the whole length of that plain lead bearing surface. What is good about the Loverin design bullets with their short ogive is that the whole bearing surface is nothing but lube gooves, and that makes for no leading in the bore. I looked at what Saeco offered in the Midway catalog, and they also did not have any gas checked Loverin design mould in 30 caliber. The Lyman 311291 and 311041 bullets have more lube grooves than the 311672, but both of these are in the 170 grain range, and they have longer ogives. Because of the weights of these two bullets, I would be a little concerned about using them in an M1 Garand.

The 311466 Loverin design mould is a good shooter for the M1 as well as many other rifles. I think it might be worth the effort to call Lyman and ask if they might still have any on the shelf or where they might direct you to find one. The folks at Lyman have helped me find out of production moulds on two other occasions in past years, and they might be able to help you.

By the way, I hate to confess that I have no idea what a Bore Rider design is. Please enlighten this feeble old one.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

[hps1]

both of these are in the 170 grain range, and they have longer ogives. Because of the weights of these two bullets, I would be a little concerned about using them in an M1 Garand.

I would not worry about shooting a 170 gr. lead bullet in the Garand (Now that I have learned that hard cast, gas checked bullets do not lead up the gas port ;) :D ). It is not the heavier bullets that damage the M1, but the slower burning powders used to drive the heavy jacketed bullets. Breech pressure is not the problem with the Garand, but the high gas port pressure generated by slow powders.

US GI M 72 Match Ammo intended for use in the Garand uses 173 grain bullets loaded to 2640 fps. I have substituted 180's with faster powders for long range match shooting in the Garands and it harms them not. The slower velocities, even with the heavy lead bullets, should not be a problem as I am sure you can use 4895 or faster powder and this will hold gas port pressures within specs.

Regards,
hps

[Fatelvis]

Ive been checking into this more extensively lately. It seems that Lyman`s 311284 (210 grains), 311413 (out of production), and RCBS`s 165 silhouette bullet are favorites, using reduced charges or IMR4895 (2000 fps range) for proper functioning and accuracy. I just bought a 311413 from Ebay, and I have a 311284 on the way from Midsouth, Im going to do some experimenting. Ill be sure to write again, with my results.

[Poodleshooter]

The purpose of the Plinker is cost savings.
I never could find them for a better deal than pulled M2 150gr FMJ's for $25 or so per 500. Seems like cast or cheap pulled FMJ's are probably the best option for cost savings.