[BGlaze250]

I am reading through Molon Labe, for the first time, and I am really enjoying it. The only problem is, all this talk of Riflemen, and their battle rifles, is making me interested in owning a battle rifle of sorts, for my self, for protection against, well, larger threats.

I've been looking around a bit, at different rifles. The M1 Garand, the M14, the BAR, etc. all look like impressive, battle-tested weapons, worthy of any collection. So, my question to y'all, who own such firearms, is what do you suggest that I purchase for myself?

I am not looking to spend too much money (hopefully less then $800, though I can go higher if needed), the rifle would need to be chambered in a fairly common round, which cannot be too expensive, as I cannot reload. Also, the rifle needs to be rugged, and tough. I really just need something decent more powerful then my .22LR. If possible, I'd like to be able to hunt with it (larger game).

So, what do y'all suggest?

[vmfrantz]

out of those 3 i'd get the m1. but dont forget about a good pump action street sweeper shotgun for close in fighting

[Geronimo45]

You'll probably get the Garand cheaper than the M14 (seen some Garands around 800, M14s (also known as M1a) run about a thousand or more). A new AR runs around 800, and a Mini-14 or Mini-30 runs about 600. An AK comes in at 300-500.

If you want to go cheap, go for a Mil-surplus bolt-action - an SMLE, Mauser, Mosin. The SKS isn't too expensive, either.

[10-Ring]

Over the course of the last 24 months, I've become a big fan of the M1a and in the last 3 months, the ar15. Now, I'm trying to find someone w/ a Garand. If it's anything like the M1a, it should be a sweatheart of a shooter!
Tough choice, but from my experience & from your list of options, I'd go w/ the M14 ;)

[Deer Hunter]

I am of the opinion that an FAL is exactly what you need :)

http://www.dsarms.com/images/AusFALR.gif

[dragongoddess]

Does an MP5 qualify.

[HorseSoldier]

None of them are particularly well suited for personal protection against human threats at realistic home defense ranges -- all that thump from full sized .30 cal rounds comes at the expense of speed.

But they're great to shoot at the range. As for which one, it depends a lot on your budget, and whether you want a gun that's 100% out the door from the store or something that might be a bit of (or a lot of) a project gun.

[Kaylee]

Does an MP5 qualify.

I would say not. Even provided one could afford a real (meaning select-fire) MP5, it doesn't fit this role.

A "battle rifle" is a weapon for armed combat at ranges out to several hundred meters. The term has come to refer primarily to 7.62 NATO class weapons, but some also use it to describe the "intermediate class" (5.56, 7.62x39, etc) longarms as well.

The MP5, as it fires pistol rounds is at a decided power and range disadvantage to all the other longarms mentioned in this thread.

Neither are these longarms primarily intended for short-range personal/home defense. They have a very important civilian role (training, community defense, 2A) - but that's not it. And they're fun, to. :D


Finally.. to the original poster... provided hunting is a requirement for the weapon, it seems to me you're pretty much stuck with the 7.62 class. Of those available, my personal preference for a general purpose rifle is the M14 platform. Sights, handiness, appearance -- all add up to a good general purpose rifle. However that's with the caveat that a general purpose rifle doesn't do any one thing well. It isn't as good at close up defense as say an M4, it isn't as good at long range as a good heavy-barrel bolt action varmit rifle, it isn't as good for hunting as a lightweight bolt or lever rifle.. it will do all of those things, but none of them particularly well.

My two cents says go ahead and get more specialized tools over time. An AR (or whatever suits your fancy, though AR is a nice choice), a lightweight hunting rifle, etc....

[cuervo]

Pick up a CMP Service or Field Grade M1:
http://www.odcmp.com/Services/Rifles/m1garand.htm#Service

The extra money can then be spent on range ammo:
http://www.odcmp.com/ammo.htm

Feed it surplus ammo for range work and to keep the cost down. For hunting, you can purchase a box of Black Hills or something like that.

M1s are a little handier than M1As even though the ammo is a little more and a little harder to find on the surplus market.

[rbernie]

I believe that a full battle rifle is really too much weight/noise/blast for close-n-personal encounters. If hunting game is on the agenda, my solution is an AR15 in 7.62x39 - just enough, not too much. In fact, I've probably taken down more deer and hog (including a 500lb boar last spring) with this rifle than I have with any other rifle that I own:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=43698&d=1156038745

Removing the hunting requirement (or presuming that you'll not try hunting moose or something), you can always pop for an AR15 in 223:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=43697&d=1156038723

But if you must have a battle rifle - an AR10 does fine.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=43700&d=1156038762

Either of these three will shoot MilSurp ammo (or inexpensive commercial plinking ammo) and can be readily procured and supported. The AR10 will usually set you back over a grand, but you can build an AR15 to almost any reasonable spec for less than a grand if you shop wisely.

[hso]

For a battle rifle get the FAL.

More rugged than the M14.

Cheaper than the M14.

Lots of mags at lower prices than the M14.

Lots of replacement parts for cheap.

Eats almost any quality ammo with just a turn of the dial.

OTOH, the Garand can be had for less than the FAL if you don't mind an ugly duckling from CMP. She's a heavy mother compared to the other 2, but certainly proven in the field.

Here's the problem though, there's not much chance that we'll be taking shots at ranges a battle rifle excels at. So, if you want it for it's historical value more than protection go for it. If protection as a civilian is the issue, there are "better" choices (AK, AR, shotty).

[rino451]

I want to get a "battle rifle" as well, but I'm waiting to see what the future holds b/c right now, in my mind the ar10 is the onyl game in town. DSA FAL's are on my list too, but I'd like to find something a little more modular, has better parts availability, and easier parts replacement. The SCAR might be the thing assuming that it's still one the drawing board.

[Manedwolf]

If you want to go cheap, go for a Mil-surplus bolt-action - an SMLE, Mauser, Mosin. The SKS isn't too expensive, either.

I'd rec the K-31 Swiss. One, it's cheap, two, it's INCREDIBLY accurate, three, it's, well...Swiss, and made like a fine watch, and STURDY...

...and four, there's something nice about the ammunition. While you can get match-grade GP-11 surplus for not much, the 7.5x55 round it uses carries what's basically a .308 bullet, giving you a choice of the entire gamut of .308 bullets if you reload. :D

Oh, yeah, also, once you get good with it, the straight-pull bolt lets you fire much, much faster (I think) than a conventional bolt, and lets you stay in the same position. A K-31 mounted with a scope is a fearsome long-range thing, indeed.

[Dienekes]

I have used the M14/M1As fairly extensively, own and shoot M1s, and the most recent member of the family is an M4gery with ACOG. Each has its particular virtues and (minor) shortcomings. I am lucky enough to be able to shoot them at close, very long, and ranges in between as I chose.

The M4 is dandy out to 150 yards as a quick, handy antipersonnel weapon. The .30 calibers are just getting going power and accuracywise where it quits, however. That may matter and it may not.

The M1 Garand is a premier battle rifle--but pulling a CMP rifle around to where you want it can easily run you $800 and up, depending on what's required to get it into first class shape. Enjoyable and educational, but not necessarily "cheap".

The M1A rifles are generally good to go as purchased and carry a warranty. If they need warranty work or you want to tweak them it's not a big deal. They will cost you $1200 plus but if you are serious about shooting you will get your money's worth over time and be glad you did it. Very likely where you would wind up anyway, and it's only money. Save on something else.

Have only a little experience with the FAL--like them, but they are long and don't have the sights or the accuracy potential of the M1A. For them what likes 'em, go ahead. I have been outshot by Canadians with their L1s, so it's more the shooter than the rifle.

Lee-Enfields ought not be underestimated, although surplus ammo has gotten hard to find. I can think of much worse rifles to be armed with, and they will do anything our .30s will do range and accuracywise. The 7.62 Indian Lee-Enfields might be an affordable way to do things.

The SKS is a very affordable piece, but it is a carbine and not a full battle rifle. Great value for the money, and will stay on a basketball at 200 yards. Probably the least accurate of all but I wouldn't want to be shot at with one.

Suggestion: check around rifle and gun clubs and see if there is a CMP highpower clinic coming up in your area, and if so get to one. You will learn more in one day there than in a year of reading posts.

[DWARREN123]

How about a Mauser, Mosin Nagant, Swiss K-31. Older tech but built to last and if in good shape they hunt too.

[HorseSoldier]

The SCAR might be the thing assuming that it's still one the drawing board.

Both the -L and -H versions of the SCAR look quite cool, but I suspect it will be years before they're available in semi-auto form for civilians (has anyone heard otherwise? FN seems to be coming back around to the potential of the civilian market with the PS90 and FS2000, but I still think SCAR will be a while getting towards civilian hands . . . )

[Eightball]

M1a or M14 would both be wonderful rifles. .308= great "Battle rifle" round, on a proven design/action.

Or an SKS, if you were really stressed for cash.

A good deal would be an AK varient in .223; lightweight, good & light round, very dependable action. You'd never have to worry--performance of .223 with AK reliability.

[student]

My 500$ service grade CMP US Springfield 1944 M1 garand came perfectly shootable. Combined with a good reliable handgun or a folder AK, they should satisfy your needs.

[Hazzard]

For an inexpensive, reliable intermediate battle rifle I'd have to second the SKS. I love mine, but then again, I've "accessorized" it

There have been many other good recommendations as well though.

[BGlaze250]

My 500$ service grade CMP US Springfield 1944 M1 garand came perfectly shootable. Combined with a good reliable handgun or a folder AK, they should satisfy your needs.

I am planning on looking into the CMP. I've heard some good things about it, and about M1 Garands in general. Failing that, I will, most likely, look around for a good deal on a M1a/M14. Thanks for the advice, everyone. I appreciate it all, even the advice I am not taking (for now :)).

[TexasRifleman]

Forget the BAR, it's not a battle rifle. It's cool, but it's just not really usable for anything other than a toy.

My vote would be for a FAL of some type unless you're determined to have a US design, then I'd find an M14/M1A.

http://homepage.mac.com/jayc67/BAR1.jpg

[mustanger98]

Forget the BAR, it's not a battle rifle. It's cool, but it's just not really usable for anything other than a toy.

I agree that the BAR is not a battle rifle. The BAR is a SAW (squad automatic weapon, for those who don't know). However, my Granddaddy was a BARman back in 1944 and while he preferred the M1 Garand, I'm sure he'd disagree with someone calling it a toy. IIRC, he told me he traded it for a Garand because it was so much heavier than a Garand, plus the full auto just told the Japanese "shoot me first".

My opinion... first pick is a CMP M1 Garand and you pick the grade. I chose a Service Grade that came back from Denmark back when those were still available. I'm satisfied. I know some M-14ers who swear by their choice. Other than those two, I seriously recommend a K98k or VZ-24... well, most large ring '98 Mauser actions in original configuration... or an '03/03A3 Springfield.

Somebody mentioned a K31 Swiss as an option... I've heard good things about those and I'm considering picking up one, but I will throw in that ammo is more pricey than .30-06, 7.62NATO, and 8mmMauser.

[BGlaze250]

My opinion... first pick is a CMP M1 Garand and you pick the grade. I chose a Service Grade that came back from Denmark back when those were still available. I'm satisfied.

What are the differences between the different grades?

[mustanger98]

The main differences between the different grades are in barrel wear (muzzle wear and throat errosion, aka MW and TE) and in price tag.

http://www.odcmp.com

FWIW, I've heard a lot of good about Rack Grades. You hear a lot of guys poo-poo'ing RG's based on description, but CMP is quite hard on the way they decribe their rifles, so you might order a RG thinking you'll get a dawg and wind up more than satisfied. I've heard from guys who bought RG's who said they shoot a lot better than it seems they should. And if you did get a shot-out barrel, you could rebarrel in 7.62x51 which is the military version of .308Winchester and have all the accuracy of '06 without quite as much felt recoil. (The two rounds use the same clips too.)

If you get into Correct and Collector grades, you'll spend a lot more money than you will on Rack, Field, and Service grades. My advise... get two or three or several lower priced shooters and enjoy. I hear Garanditis is catching and there is no cure.

[TexasRifleman]

I'm sure he'd disagree with someone calling it a toy.

No offense to your grandad, and I do have one in the safe, but unless there are hordes of Hun coming over the hill, it's a toy today. :D

plus the full auto just told the Japanese "shoot me first".

They used to choose the shortest guy in the unit to carry the BAR for just that reason, smaller target!!!!

[browningguy]

You say battle rifle so I'm going to exclude intermediate (7.62x39) and small (5.56mm adn similar) guns. The three you mentioned are all good. I personally have a FN 49 in 8mm, just to be different. Some people really like the FN-FAL types, and I've shot one Cetme that was a really nice rifle. Check the C&R forums and you'll find much deeper discussions on all of these.

[Guy B. Meredith]

For more information on the M1 Garand check out http://www.ambackforum.com/viewforum.php?f=109 or the odcmp.com forum. They can pretty up without a whole lot of effort.

Though the description of the CMP Garands seems cut and dry the actuality is that most delivered seem to be as described or better. Some real gems, but that is the luck of the draw via mail. I purchased two Field Grades, one is probably 4 MOA but the other can allow this clutzy shooter to do sub 2" groups at 100 yds with surplus ammo. The first cost me $400 with shipping to my front door last year and the second $450 this year.

[mustanger98]

Two more forums you really should look into...

http://www.m-14forum.com

http://rifle-company.com

I'm on both of 'em and recommend them.

[mordechaianiliewicz]

One possible answer is a Saiga .308 hunting rifle. Now that there is a 20 round mag out there for it, you can get one for about $350-$450. I didn't think an AK platform would be very accurate. Then, lo and behold I bought one, and discovered 2 moa at a 100 yards.

I'm gonna get a 4x scope on that bad boy, and have one heck of a battle rifle.

[Dr. Dickie]

First, IMO you have to (if you are an American) have a Garand in your life (I am pretty sure that is in the Constitution someplace:evil: ). When someone says, "Battle rifle," I am willing to bet more folks think of the M1 than even the M16.
After you have an M1, then you can start looking for an M1A at a reasonable (ha!) price, or start looking into a FAL.

[BigG]

How is a battle rifle different than a plain rifle? I guess I need to play more video games, huh? :neener:

[Manedwolf]

Somebody mentioned a K31 Swiss as an option... I've heard good things about those and I'm considering picking up one, but I will throw in that ammo is more pricey than .30-06, 7.62NATO, and 8mmMauser.

Get one quick, they're going fast, and I don't think there's any more coming in. It's harder and harder to get one without a chewed-on stock. Surplus GP-11 ammo, which is match-grade, is about 38 cents a round when bought in 60rd battlepacks. Wolf Gold is not bad either, and it's not really Wolf, it's relabeled (and reloadable) Prvi Partisan made in Serbia.

Of those, I'd pick the first two and not the last. .30-06 and .308 will always be easy to find and find components for. The K-31, you can reload with a .308 bullet with .284 win brass run through a 7.5 Swiss resizing die.

But would you be able to find 8mm Mauser? Or even .323 bullets?