[Newton]

The bad habit that todays ammunition makers seem to have acquired is to download cartridges for legal reasons (why did we invent lawyers anyway).

To get original performance levels out of todays .38 Special and even 9mm, or so I've heard tell, you have to step up to +P loadings.

Does anyone know what the original performance of the .38 Special loads would have been and how they stack up against a box of today's plain vanilla range ammo.

[Nightcrawler]

The original .357 Magnum load, I believe, was a 158 Grain bullet at 1400 or so feet per second. That's pretty stout, and may be a bit much for your J or K frame.

However, from a GP100, Model 28, or Blackhawk, you're all set. And Georgia Arms still makes this load (they call it the Deerstopper).

[Mike Irwin]

The original .38 Spl. specifics were a 158-gr. lead round nose bullet and 21.5 grains of black powder for a nominal muzzle velocity of about 850 fps, or right about what you would expect to find from today's 158-gr. LRN range ammo.

The .38 Spl. is one round that was never really altered down much, except for the Air Force in their .38 cal. Airweight revovlers.

[Old Fuff]

Keep in mind that the older “standard” .38 Special ballistics are based on a revolver with a 6 inch barrel. Some of the 38/44 loads listed a 5 inch length. Most loads today are from a fixture using a 4 inch vented barrel to simulate a revolver. With this sort of lemons to apples mix one almost has to do their own experimenting to find out what’s what.

[444]

This is kind of off topic, but one thing that always occurs to me in discussions like this is whether an extra 50 fps or even 100 fps is all that much better. I don't have an answer I can substantiate, but I can guess. We are talking about very small differences in velocity, and in today's ammo, this decrease in velocity is more than made up for in infinitely better bullet design.

[Mike Irwin]

When you're talking about the old 158-gr. LRN bullet out of a .38 Spl. 100 fps. either way didn't mean squat.

[bpisler]

If you want a hot 38 special then cor-bon is the place to go.From a 4" barrel the 110gr jhp goes 1225 fps,the 125gr jhp goes 1100fps.
These velocitys were taken from the cor-bon website.

[Lone Star]

The lead Plus P 158 grain lead HP lists nominally at 890 FPS from a four-inch vent bbl. Actually, it usually gives well in excess of 900 FPs in four-inch. I've seen it chronographed at about 1,000 FPS from six-inch guns.

This load gives about 800 FPS in a snub, and some 850 FPS or so from a three-inch revolver. It has an excellent reputation for stopping power. Naturally, It's hard to find, and Federal and (I think, Remington) have even quit making it!

There's a rumor that manufacturers want to make people spend more to buy JHP ammo. Don't know if it's true...

I don't trust bullet integrity in weights less than 125 grains. Even f they don't seperate in animal tissue, penetration may be inadequate.

Lone Star

[chief]

In "ye olden days", when I was a rookie, most officers that worried about ammo performance had some friend handload their ammo for them. Some of our best stuff was a downsized Keith type SWC loaded with a lot of 2400 or a hard cast WC seated out to make room for more 2400. We had heard about "Super Vel" back them, but nobody had any.

[sm]

I've always liked the .38 spl. round. Mostly I shoot it from a .38spl only K frame.

Mike, so what I'm hearing the round has improved due to improved powders, bullet material and design. It may not gather the glitz and glamour of some cartridges...but it won't fade into obscurity either.

[Mike Irwin]

1973,

Of course the round has improved given the advances in bullet design and propellants.

There's one very good reason, though, why the .38 Spl. is probably going to be with us as long as there are handguns...

It's very likely that more .38 Spls. have been made than any other caliber centerfire revolver.

There's also a VERY good chance that there have been more .38 Spl. revolvers made than all other centerfire calibers COMBINED.

Hell, S&W alone has made along the lines of 20 million or more .38 Spls., the vast majority of those being K frames.

[WebHobbit]

OK, I'm going to post in this .38 love fest as the "lone dissenter".

;)


Years ago I was "Mr. 38 Special". That's all I owned & I said that's all I'd ever need.

But then S&W started making .357 J-Frames...specifically a Magnum version of my carry choice --the Centennial 640.

After much research it started to dawn on me just how ballistically WEAK the .38+p really is. It's outclassed by almost every decent SD caliber including the "lowly 9mm".

I switched to .357 and have never looked back.

Now of course there are many great old .38 only S&W revolvers, so there will always be the nostalgia factor I suppose but I contend that choosing a .38 for SD now (assuming newish gun purchase) is kinda like choosing a 2.3 litre POS 4 cylinder Mustang when you could have had a V-8 in the same exact car!

The only thing I think the .38 is really good for would be teaching the very recoil sensitive to shoot --- then I'd go with the 148 grain full Wadcutter.

Now if someone would start selling a Jacketed Wadcutter loaded in a .357 case, maybe using just a tiny bit more powder that might make a fine target/training load!


:)

[4thHorseman]

WebHobbit, I too thought EXACTLY like you did for many, many years. One day I thgought about the reason I carried. It was not terminate a life but to stop an agressor from doing harm to me or the family. I realized then it was not a matter of a huge round that I needed or I would be carrying a 44 mag. I do not look for confrontation, or a M-16 would be daily carry. The 357 has difficulty for me with follow ups also. I think follow ups are extremely important. For me to be accurate with a 357 I need a larger size gun. No dought, the 357 is ferociuos round.
The 38 +P will do the job and still is small enough to wear comfortably all day.:)

[WebHobbit]

Well the way I reason is that if I have to use my snub in SD it's going to be conversational distances anyway so I don't need too awful much accuracy & the gun only holds 5 rounds anyway. I really think under those circumstances I'd be able to crank off 5 blasts and hit a man sized target.

And if I was to miss with the bullet the flames from the muzzle blast are bound to scorch him!

:)

The last week or so I been carrying my 4 inch 686 as my beloved 640 is off at the S&W Performance Center for some trigger work and a repolish. I'm actually getting use to the extra mass and heft. I'm starting to like carrying the big gun! :uhoh:

[4thHorseman]

WebHobbit- "And if I was to miss with the bullet the flames from the muzzle blast are bound to scorch him!"


Now that's funny!!:D :D :D LOL

[444]

"Well the way I reason is that if I have to use my snub in SD it's going to be conversational distances anyway "

Not to be a jerk, but what makes you think that if you ever have to use your gun in self defense that the situation will have to fall into a certain senario that you have envisioned ? For example, what happens if you are standing at one end of a grocery store isle and you absolutely have to take a shot to the other end of the isle to save your life ?

[WebHobbit]

Well I suppose I'm mostly going by the old FBI stats that seemed to indicate 99% of (police) armed encounters were at the 7 to 21 foot range. I'll try to dig up some linkage for that if ya don't believe it.

Also, I aint sure about the grocery stores in your area but around here an aisle would probably be around 20-30 foot in length. Maybe not conversational distances but certainly a "relatively easy shot". I do practice at the range with paper plates that are set out about 25-30 feet.

I'm not a SWAT team member, just a private citizen with a CCW. If the BG gets very far off I'm running away by foot or by car!

:)

[BigG]

The older 38 Spl loads were pretty limp, as Saxonpig noted (158 gr 800-850 fps). One difficulty for ammo mfrs is the old Colt revos have straight thru chambers so anything that will fit will fire. This is not good in a ole 38 Long Colt revo. The same is true for many off brand revos.

9mm is about the same as it used to be in ball loadings, never a powerhouse but a good penetrator. :eek:

[Mike Irwin]

"Also, I aint sure about the grocery stores in your area but around here an aisle would probably be around 20-30 foot in length."

You're kidding...

Here in Northern Virginia the aisles in the grocery that I use most requently are 100 feet plus

One of the large warehouse stores I shop in? A lot closer to 150 to 175 feet.

[444]

"Well I suppose I'm mostly going by the old FBI stats that seemed to indicate 99% of (police) armed encounters were at the 7 to 21 foot range. "

I doubt if the percentage is that high, but I know it is high. The problem is, what if you happen to be that other 1% ? You spent your training time, and bought your equipment based on one certain senario you had in your mind and thought it was the only possibility. Yes, every grocery store I have been in, in the last 10 years has had isles that were roughly 25 yards long. One reason I bring this up is because we had this senario here a couple years ago. Some guy flipped out and walked into the grocery store with a shotgun and started randomly shooting people. Not trying to be obnoxious, this is just the thought that enters my mind every time someone makes that statement, and I read it a lot on these boards. This falls under that phrase invented by Forrest Gump- **** happens. Or Murphy's Law. If 99.99999% of self defense situations happen inside of 7 yards, mine will be the one that doesn't.