SHTF Rifle Poll


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50caliber123
September 12, 2006, 07:09 AM
What do you guys use? I officially adopted the AK variants after rejecting the century arms Cetme. I keep an SKS as well, because the 7.62x39 is the perfect round for any civil unrest/shtf situation, short or long term. Far more durable and cheaper than an AR, important to me as I am a college student. My best friend kept his Cetme, so I scrambled and found a navy arms jungle carbine in .308 for ammo commonality between our fire team, keeping different calibers down to a minimum

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possum
September 12, 2006, 08:51 AM
I voted ar, just because they are so adaptable for various uses,. bi-pod no bi-pod, flashlights, night vision, Ir, and all that good stuff. One rifle can be used in almost any scenario that you would find yourself in. Just my opinion though.

Don't Tread On Me
September 12, 2006, 08:52 AM
What kind of SHTF? That term is so broad and general.


Right now, I have a Colt 6520 for SHTF. But in my view, SHTF is going to be a post-hurricane disaster or other such natural disaster, a riot, a terror attack that brings about a short-term chaos/panic/looting, and of course - a home invasion.


IF I were to include fighting a tyrannical government, participating in an insurgency against occupiers, participating in a civil war or revolution etc into my firearm strategy...then I'd move up in cartridge most likely to the 7.62x39mm AK platform or possibly to .308 in the form of a FAL or M1A. That kind of SHTF requires offensive (rather than only defensive) uses also, and that might include attacking/ambushing vehicles, buildings and other such positions where a little extra punch might come in handy.


ALL that being said, since I don't plan on latter stuff happening...the AR with .223 is plenty, plenty of gun.

Manedwolf
September 12, 2006, 09:27 AM
IF I were to include fighting a tyrannical government, participating in an insurgency against occupiers, participating in a civil war or revolution etc into my firearm strategy...then I'd move up in cartridge most likely to the 7.62x39mm AK platform or possibly to .308 in the form of a FAL or M1A. That kind of SHTF requires offensive (rather than only defensive) uses also, and that might include attacking/ambushing vehicles, buildings and other such positions where a little extra punch might come in handy.

I think you've seen "Red Dawn" too many times. :rolleyes:

If it came to that, engaging in that sort of foolishness would get you immediately killed from ten directions at once by trained people with superior equipment who operate in well-praticed squads. (and who would then laugh at you) The only way that a superior, trained paramilitary force could be impacted by non-suicidal civilians would be by single-shot longrange sniping, I think.

Don't Tread On Me
September 12, 2006, 10:07 AM
I think you missed the point. :(

Lonestar.45
September 12, 2006, 10:57 AM
The only way that a superior, trained paramilitary force could be impacted by non-suicidal civilians would be by single-shot longrange sniping, I think.

Well, I'd disagree with that. The Soviets were driven out of Afghanistan by what amounted to civilians on horseback using the same tactics Don't Tread on Me described in his post. Ambushes and hit and run attacks. But I digress.

For SHTF I've got two SKS, an AK, and once I get an upper, an AR-15. Of course, the Mosins and other bolt actions could be used too. It all depends on ammo availability. Short term, with my stock, I'd grab the AK.

Technosavant
September 12, 2006, 11:34 AM
Well, I'd disagree with that. The Soviets were driven out of Afghanistan by what amounted to civilians on horseback using the same tactics Don't Tread on Me described in his post. Ambushes and hit and run attacks.

Exactly. Ditto the VC and the US Army. The losses will be higher on the part of untrained partisans/insurgents/etc., but it is possible to defeat a better trained and better equipped foe.

As for me, all I have is a SKS. I'll eventually go AK, but an AK is in spot #3 on my list of guns to buy, and who knows- by the time I get to that point, I might go AR. But either way, it's a couple years off.

2400
September 12, 2006, 12:10 PM
Where's the bolt action option?

50caliber123
September 12, 2006, 02:32 PM
sorry, I listed options for self-loaders only, thinking that a bolt gun is a last resort, desperation, or loaner. For true SHTF, I want my finest rifle with the most firepower

roscoe
September 12, 2006, 02:54 PM
Er - what about AK- variant .223?

bclark1
September 12, 2006, 03:06 PM
AR for me, but that's only because M1's in the same condition (brand spankin new with updated furniture etc.) as my AR are cost prohibitive.

Ed Ames
September 12, 2006, 03:20 PM
I'm not sure I like that list.

I see three types of SHTF:
1) "Lost in the woods..." for whatever reason (disease, earthquake, massive storms, etc.) you are cut off from normal supplies and may not be high on anyone's priority list for a while. That's a fairly big risk if you live in the mountains or desert actually, because a storm or landslide can leave you stuck in the boonies with no support and nobody will notice for days. It is possible you'll need a firearm to defend against predators or fellow travelers with no moral code, or as a signaling device, or to shop for groceries. A hunting rifle would be perfect for this scenario.

2) "Temporary break-down of authority..." the big example around here would be the LA riots in the early 90s... the Police Chief actually had the cluelessness to get on TV and say "our biggest priority is the safety of our officers." ... of course, because of that cowardice and general mismanagement from the top down, there were days where the only pockets of law and order were those pockets created by store owners with rifles on top of their stores, scientologists with baseball bats standing around their buildings, and so on. People with courage and something to defend. In that scenario a .22LR would be just fine because defending property didn't mean leaving piles of bodies. There was no problem buying groceries (just drive to the local Super Wal-Mart), no problem staying safe (just drive past the local Super Wal-Mart), no loss of communications or anything... but if you had property in the area you had to defend or hire a private security guard because the cops are going to leave and hold press conferences until it all blows over.

3) "Total break-down of social order..." that's the one we haven't faced in a long time, but it has been faced in many places. In that case, your goal is to survive long enough to find an external support network (people in other nations who believe in your cause) and bring in real weapons through them. In Afghanistan that support network was first the US (during the Soviet years) and then various muslim groups (during the Northern Aliance years... including today). The last time the US really went through that was arguably the Revolution. Having a battle rifle would be nice, but rockets, explosives, and so on would be nicer. And you've got to ask yourself whether you are going to want to be a soldier in this new revolution whatever it is. Probably not my sort of thing.

A decent hunting rifle... a Garand being acceptable... will cover most of that.


engaging in that sort of foolishness would get you immediately killed from ten directions at once by trained people with superior equipment who operate in well-praticed squads.

Maybe we should send some of those well trained people to Iraq. :(

Manedwolf
September 12, 2006, 03:23 PM
sorry, I listed options for self-loaders only, thinking that a bolt gun is a last resort, desperation, or loaner. For true SHTF, I want my finest rifle with the most firepower

Unless you prefer a semi-auto for closeup scuffling, and an extremely accurate bolt-action for "they're armed but still on the edge of the property" precise, scoped sniping.

Which I would. There's a reason why military and police snipers still use bolt-actions, and it's not desparation. :P

Dr.Rob
September 12, 2006, 03:43 PM
Well when the S hits the F my fire team will likely be a stinky fat beagle and an irate old man with a walker-mounted varmint rifle mumbling about black helicopters and a wistful granny with a Browning .22... it won't matter if the bad guys are zombies, looters, blue helmeted paratroops or alien invaders... if you step foot outside your domicile with a rifle you will be targeted as a bad guy by who ever is rampaging through your suburbs.


Just something to keep in mind while you are sorting through your golf bag full of tactical options.

1911JMB
September 12, 2006, 04:02 PM
If you ask me, a SHTF scenerio would be something like a robber in the middle of the night, or a robber on the street, or perhaps a nasty hurricane that lays waste to a city. The fact is, russia will never invade no matter how much you hope they will.

In my opinion, for an actually possible shtf scenerio, any reliable pump 12 gauge would be perfect. They are highly powerful and maneuverable, so I think a 12 gauge would be the optimum choice. A century of police use can't be wrong.

Ed Ames
September 12, 2006, 04:06 PM
Rob, that's an interesting theory but in reality when the SHTF the law runs away. Los Angeles showed it perfectly... citizens on their roofs with rifles, no cops anywhere around, certainly no imaginary fire teams taking anybody out. A man with a rifle in a SHTF scenario has more to fear from SARS than from government sharpshooters.

1911JMB -- that's just home defense... SHTF is survivalist fantasy, not home defense.

ACP
September 12, 2006, 04:11 PM
I voted AR -- and I LOVE the M1A. The AR is lighter and ammo is lighter. Pop a 4x scope on the carry handle and you're good to go.

1911JMB
September 12, 2006, 05:02 PM
<"1911JMB -- that's just home defense... SHTF is survivalist fantasy, not home defense.">

My point exactly. And as I did say, occasionaly a natural disaster (or perhaps a racist act of police brutality) will set off a city into riotous looting situation. And in that case, a remington 870 or some other pump 12 is perfect. Of course, you can't take long range shots with a 12 gauge, but thats not an issue in a riot or katrina type situation.

flip180
September 12, 2006, 05:14 PM
All though I have an M1A, I voted for the AK.

Flip.

Rexrider
September 12, 2006, 05:15 PM
I voted for the AR because that is what I have.

However, I also have a Marlin 1894 in .357 mag which I consider a fine SHTF weapon for most situations except for all out combat as described by Don't Tread On Me.

The 1894 fits nicely in Ed Ames's list.

1. Lost in the woods or desert. Well, the Marlin is what I would have with me if I were out in the woods or desert.

2. "Temporary break-down of authority...". The Marlin is a great personal/home defense rifle. This would most likely be a purely defensive situation. It would not attract as much attention from the good or bad guys. Although I try to avoid being out and about under these circumstances anyway. The Marlin would get me home if I got caught in the wrong place at the wrong time.

3. "Total break-down of social order...". In this situation I would want the AR with me. But if all I had was the Marlin, I would still have a viable weapon for defensive purposes. I would not want to go to battle with it but if nothing else it could be used to get a better rifle.

DawgFvr
September 12, 2006, 05:17 PM
Obviously...SHTF means different things to different people. I have to go with M1 Garand. After carrying a M16 for most of my life, I like the idea of reaching out and touching someone with 30.06.

Chuck R.
September 12, 2006, 05:34 PM
Well my SHTF rifle is a DSA SA58 Para with a Trijicon Tri-Power in a Larue mount.

I don’t have much ammo though because every time I stockpile some I end up shooting it up.

But to tell you the truth, the only SHTF I worry about around here in KS is my wife finding out how much I paid for: “The silly black rifle that folds in half”.

I don’t know if we could gather together enough folks here in Leavenworth to have a riot or much in the way of civil unrest anyway. But I did whack a beaver with it, so between that and keeping my steel swingers at bay it serves a purpose.

Chuck

azredhawk44
September 12, 2006, 05:55 PM
I am absolutely shocked that the SKS was not on this list.

Much cheaper than the AK, in the budget of po' folk that can't afford some of the more expensive options. Semiautomatic, stripper-clip fed and packs a punch. "The poor man's Garand."

That said, I have an M1A scout for those purposes as well as being used for hunting and recreation.

Evil Monkey
September 12, 2006, 05:59 PM
I chose AR in 5.56mm because the ammo, gun parts, and magazines can all be taken from Big Brothers' little dead Minions.:what: :D :evil:

Diggler
September 12, 2006, 06:12 PM
Bolt or semi doesn't much matter, you won't be dumping ammo for long. You don't have a supply line like the military. How much ammo can you REALLY carry? And food, water, other supplies... make every shot count.

OEF_VET
September 12, 2006, 06:18 PM
I voted AR because I own 2 M-16's and 3 AR's.

I also own an AK variant, as an alternative weapon, should I ever need one.

Deer Hunter
September 12, 2006, 06:28 PM
In any serious down-to-earth SHTF scenario, how many rounds are you REALLY thinking about carrying? I would sacrifice ammunition for other, more important items such as food and supplies. I picked the FAL, simply because there isn't an SKS to choose from. And I'd even use an M44 if I had to. All of these rifles carry a bullet that I know, from experience, that will put down a rather large animal such as a deer.

SHTF means you have to survive long enough on your own to get to a place to regroup.

2TransAms
September 12, 2006, 06:41 PM
I chose AR in 5.56mm because the ammo, gun parts, and magazines can all be taken from Big Brothers' little dead Minions.
Right,because if television has taught us anything,it's that one lone freedom fighter can take out legions of evil SWAT teams. That,and you will end up with a hottie for a sidekick.

I'd be happy with an AK or an AR. I have zero combat experience,so I can say that I'd feel pretty secure with either one. Either way,it's a rifle.

vmfrantz
September 12, 2006, 06:42 PM
in close combat or a riot a good pump 12 ga. an invading country, i'd use the weapon my enemy uses after i kill a few:evil: that way i'd always have a supply of free ammo

Nematocyst
September 12, 2006, 06:47 PM
Unless you prefer a semi-auto for closeup scuffling, and an extremely accurate bolt-action for "they're armed but still on the edge of the property" precise, scoped sniping.

Which I would. There's a reason why military and police snipers still use bolt-actions, and it's not desparation.I'm sitting over here with the bolt action crowd, 12 ga. just a few feet away...

up_onus
September 12, 2006, 06:55 PM
Ill take anything! because, I only have handguns....
BAD ME! BAD ME!:cuss:

karlsgunbunker
September 12, 2006, 07:32 PM
I picked AK variant 7.62x39 but actually I'd use my FPK (AK varient 7.62x54r).
A lot more bang for the buck IMO. Actually any of my AK's, SKS's, Mosins, enfields or the FPK would do in a pinch. All reliable and tough.

SigfanUSAF
September 12, 2006, 07:50 PM
RRA Entry Tactical. Somehow I've managed to compile 35 or so 30 round mags, and over a thousand rounds of surplus 5.56mm. Al-Queda, Zombies, Alien invasion, whatever, I'm ready.

Seven High
September 12, 2006, 07:53 PM
A very real SHTF scenario is a war with China. I think that they would nuke us first then invade, probably in the west coast area or possibly thru Central America. Their forces all use an AK47 variant. During the vietnam war, the clack clack clack sound instantly identified an enemy as firing an AK47. I would much rather be firing an AR15/M16 in this type of scenario as I would be recognized as a "good guy" by the sound of my rifle.

Nematocyst
September 12, 2006, 07:59 PM
I would much rather be firing an AR15/M16 in this type of scenario as I would be recognized as a "good guy" by the sound of my rifle.Hmm.

So, Seven High, would the sound of my 12 ga identify me as enemy or good guy? :scrutiny:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=44624&d=1157789170

50caliber123
September 12, 2006, 10:39 PM
I was at the range Monday and realized something: the front sight post on the MAK-90 will cover an 8" circle at 100 yards. I can still shoot it accurately at that distance, but not as accurately as my .308 enfield or my mauser because of the width of the front sight post. Another person at the range had a WASR AK, with a much thinner front sight post.

I agree that I wasn't thinking clearly when I didn't put an option for bolt guns or the SKS. My sks is a great battle rifle.

On another note, a real possible shtf scenario of invasion can come from illegal immigration, or still worse, from China, as mentioned earlier. China wouldn't nuke us, if they were going to invade, they would want to take this country relatively intact. That means massive, overwhelming force, probably trogan-horse style with shipping container full of soldiers and air drops, followed by landing forces. This would be a likely scenario, and many in our population would appease the enemy still. Its not paranoia, the military trains to fight enemies both foreign and domestic, so a domestic war could, however unlikely happen on American soil.

10-Ring
September 12, 2006, 10:42 PM
Seeing that I sold off my HK 91 & 93 before the dreaded AWB :( and getting one now is impossible & the closest I've seen to SHTF were the Rodney King riots, I voted AR15 for its portability, versatility & pointability.

trickyasafox
September 12, 2006, 11:02 PM
i'd go AR or SKS. actually id go both. i packed a bit of ammo away for both, and have an AR for myself and an sks or two for some family. I'd like to get a G3 in the future, but they seem to be a bit out of my price range at the moment.

Will Learn
September 12, 2006, 11:22 PM
I like the ruggedness of the AK and the SKS but the accuracy of the AR would be nice. If I had to be on the move a lot I would choose the SKS along with a bunch of ammo on stripper clips. I might take the AK/AR depended on the amount of other crap I was carrying(full AK/AR mags can get heavy if you have enough of them). I take pride in my AR just as much as anyone else but that wouldn't stop me from carrying a can CLP in my back pocket with it.

aspen1964
September 12, 2006, 11:29 PM
I have shot the AK and it's not a bad gun..I have also shot the AR and have never liked it...recently, I have bought and shot the M1 and my fondness has grown exponentially...I think it is important to arm yourself with a gun that you LIKE...sort of a best friend to depend on....a good pyschological edge..to me the M1 has just that!

geekWithA.45
September 12, 2006, 11:34 PM
When uncertain, M1A in .308.

When reasonably certain it's going to be cqb or sub 100 yard work, AR.

Metapotent
September 12, 2006, 11:39 PM
A very real SHTF scenario is a war with China. I think that they would nuke us first then invade, probably in the west coast area or possibly thru Central America. Their forces all use an AK47 variant. During the vietnam war, the clack clack clack sound instantly identified an enemy as firing an AK47. I would much rather be firing an AR15/M16 in this type of scenario as I would be recognized as a "good guy" by the sound of my rifle.

China lacks the ability to project forces to foreign lands right now. China also lacks a blue-water navy and therefore they would have absolutely no naval or air support. The US navy would destroy them far before then.

If China were to use Nukes, well...that would be the end of China. But China would never do such a stupid thing. China only has 20 nuclear warheads, and no MERVS. 10 of these warheads are on ICBMs (intercontinental ballistic missiles) and only 5 of these have the capability to reach the US mainland. Then some of these would be shot down by AEGIS anti-Missile ships that that are very near China in the Pacific. So China lacks the ability to engage in a nuclear war with the US, let alone a conventional war.

China's military is very far behind the US in technology, so even if no nukes werent involved the US would be completely dominant. But if China DID initiate a nuclear attack on the US, China would quickly become one gigantic nuclear wasteland, while the US would still survive after absorbing a few million civilian casualties.

Now, if the US was to ever actually be invaded or complete social order was destroyed and the US military put out of commission. My personal weapons of choice would of cource be my ARs in 5.56 and my AR 10 in 7.62 (.308). But this would be complemented by an array of rifles owned by my friends and family members.

Brian Williams
September 13, 2006, 11:44 AM
STHF around here, I have my Urban Assault Rifle ready and waiting. It is a Marlin 1894C in 357.

OBTW this poll is skewed toward Mil-spec and does not fit many people the would be in the category of "Do not invade the US, for there is a rifleman behind every blade of grass". If SHTF hit around here there would be a bunch of deer rifles poking out from many a window.

ozwyn
September 13, 2006, 11:48 AM
put me down as another vote for .357 levergun. Ammo logistics between handgun and rifle are less of a problem and would be more than enough gun for a likely SHTF scenario (riots, natural disaster).

High Planes Drifter
September 13, 2006, 03:44 PM
China lacks the ability to project forces to foreign lands right now. China also lacks a blue-water navy and therefore they would have absolutely no naval or air support. The US navy would destroy them far before then.

-------------------------------

Agreed. The US Navy would make short work of what China has to offer. Lots of Chinese food for the sharks in the Pacific.

I voted M1A, I carried my M1A after Katrina. Although I would have felt just as comfortable carrying my AR15; I just lent it out to a family member.

Manedwolf
September 13, 2006, 05:22 PM
If SHTF hit around here there would be a bunch of deer rifles poking out from many a window.

Yup. People have said that it's just a fluke that the 30-30 never ended up in any war. And a deer rifle is not a battle rifle because it's not meant to be dropped in mud and sand and banged against things continually.

But a deer rifle in that, or in any of the military-also calibers, in practiced hands, suddenly becomes a sniper rifle when it has to be used against two-legged predators.

And the point of a scoped bolt action is that if you have warning or can see a bunch of miscreants coming, you can dissuade or stop them while they're in range for you, but you're out of range for them.

Even if you're not sure that they intend you harm but they look like they do, and don't want to necessarily kill them, the echoing crack of a distant, unseen rifle following a round through a window of their vehicle or splintering a tree near them would dissuade any but the most dangerously desparate, I'd think. :D

Seven High
September 13, 2006, 08:01 PM
China is in the midst of a massive military buildup. China has already established a "beachhead" in Panama. Castro would probably allow China to use his island to launch a strike against the U.S. Mexico is teetering towards communism. :eek:

briansmithwins
September 13, 2006, 08:22 PM
20" AR15 with low-power scope.

The same rifle that I've run thousands of rounds thru and practice with every month, Why use anything else? BSW

jame
September 13, 2006, 09:41 PM
I'm with the bolt action/deer rifle/shotgun crowd. I just sold the AR and picked up a CZ 527 American, and I live in the sticks.

The tactical thing just started getting a little cumbersome and gadget heavy for me. I like simple. Especially under a stressful situation.

Metapotent
September 13, 2006, 10:02 PM
China is in the midst of a massive military buildup. China has already established a "beachhead" in Panama. Castro would probably allow China to use his island to launch a strike against the U.S. Mexico is teetering towards communism.

China's military buildup pales in comparison to even the maintainance of the US military. I've never heard of China having a "beachhead" in Panama, but it's kind of irrelevant considering the fact that the US has Military Presence in many countries all around China, and also has Naval task forces guarding the Panama Canal. There are significant amounts of US troops, ground forces, air power, and naval power in many countries near China these include Mongolia, South Korea, Taiwan, the Phillipines, Japan, and more. Not to mention the US Navy's carrier task forces all around the pacific on constant maneuvers.

If China ever moved troops to Cuba, that would be seen as an extremely aggressive act and the US would retaliate or threaten China with war if it didn't withdraw. China would not be stupid enough to do this in the first place however.

And regardless of whether or not alot of Mexicans are communist, they do not hold an alliance to China or desire to immitate Chinese-style communism. Although I have a great distaste for Communism, I still realize that not all Communists are the same (i.e. Not all are evil and power hungry). Mexico is not a threat, and if they were ever to assist China in a possible invasion of the US, it would be suicide for them economically, politically, and physically (they'd be destroyed).

China is not a threat, atleast not any time soon. Their economy is completely reliant on US-based investment and business. I've learned in college that more than 50% of China's economy revolves around US-related industry, but that China-related industry only comprises around 15% of the US economy. Americans buy alot of CHinese goods, but if the US decided to cut off trading with China, China would collapse, and the US would just increase trade with India instead and use it as an alternate source of cheap textiles and consumer products. The US would survive.

Bottomline: Relax about China. The US is in a huge position of leverage and power over China.

See what you made me do, I had go to great lengths to explain something fairly unrelated to the thread. I hate when i have to do that.

soul_rapier
September 13, 2006, 10:19 PM
i have 5 sks ,2 m1a and 4 ak's 1 ar i have seen all of them jamm at least 1 time i got them fixed now but i would not feel safe with any of them . friend of mind got a G3 i have never seen it jamm not 1 time i would pick an ak till i got to my friend's house to bum a G3 off of him LOL

dracphelan
September 13, 2006, 10:37 PM
My SHTF rifle is not listed. I have a Marlin 1894 in 357 magnum. I already have one revolver in 357 and will be getting a Ruger Blackhawk in 357 with a 9mm cylinder.

Glockfan.45
October 15, 2006, 10:26 PM
I voted for the AK. Reliable, tough as nails, and effective round.

I chose AR in 5.56mm because the ammo, gun parts, and magazines can all be taken from Big Brothers' little dead Minions.


While that line of thought WILL get you killed who cares what you start off with? If your gonna take ammo, parts, etc why not just take the whole freakin gun with the extra saftey position? Honestly people who carry AR's cause thats what the JBT's will be carrying confound me.

doc tc
October 15, 2006, 11:42 PM
something accurate this way comes.

savage 10fp le-1, .308.

closer? mossberg 8 shot 12 guage.

moving fast across the terrain. mini-14.

daily recon? marlin 336 30-30.

sitting on the latrine? kimber .45.

that just about does it.

the fan is always on somewhere.

doc

Terrill
October 16, 2006, 11:09 AM
Can we say, "None of the above."?
I have 2 AK's, 1 AR, 1 M1, 1 M1 Carbine. But I would not grab any of them.
I would go with a .308 bolt gun along with a 12 ga. shotgun. However, I would also choose one of my 30-30's over the semi's. I don't plan on firefights. I plan to haul it!!!

Glockfan.45
October 16, 2006, 11:17 AM
I would also choose one of my 30-30's over the semi's. I don't plan on firefights. I plan to haul it!!!

Sigh you guys and your lever guns. If I ever had to engage in a fire fight with a fellow high roader I could only hope its a fossil with a 30-30, or .357 lever action :neener: . Semi-auto trumps pumping, or cocking any day of the week.

Loanshark
October 16, 2006, 03:25 PM
Well I couldn't vote... I have a Saiga chambered in .223/ 5.56... So while I shoot the 5.56x 45 ammo, my gun is an AK variant the poll makes an assumtion of exclusivity!!!

Stiletto Null
October 16, 2006, 03:58 PM
I have an FN49 and an M39, both of which are very accurate and capable of pretty decent sustained fire rates.

Hobie
October 16, 2006, 03:59 PM
No. 4 MK I and No. 4 MK I*

Roadwild17
October 16, 2006, 04:11 PM
Whatever I can get my gruby hands on first.

The Deer Hunter
October 16, 2006, 04:12 PM
if im battling zombies and crazy people i dought i will follow nato regulations so i go with an M1A because of high power and accuracy

ironvic
October 23, 2008, 11:46 PM
12 gauge Remington 870. Carry slugs and 00 buck. This is the long arm I feel most comfortable with. Versatile, packs a wallop and, because I live in an RV, it's compact as well.

I do need a rifle, though. But cash is tight right now-maybe a SKS or, more likely, a Moisin Nagant M44 (both very compact and shoot a powerful enough round) or a 30-30 Marlin lever gun if I cash in some gold (while I can).

sharkhunter2018
October 24, 2008, 12:20 AM
Would either be my AK or Garand. I voted AK. Of all my rifles, I am best with those two, so either one will do.

armoredman
October 24, 2008, 12:56 AM
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/basicload.jpg

270 rounds 7.62x39mm in one incredible accurate rifle, and two spares for the pistol. That's for basic duties.
Behind every blade of grass? Hmmm.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/longdistance.jpg

RockyMtnTactical
October 24, 2008, 01:00 AM
AR15 carbine. Why? Because it's what I like and what I train with.

I have several, but this is my favorite.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u87/RMTactical/CustomM4build.jpg

benzy2
October 24, 2008, 01:38 AM
Personally my first thought of SHTF is me having to survive with a few dozen of the locals living off the land for an extended time. Something like martial law has broken out but we are to the point we follow basic rules. For this the first thought was the .30-30 since it will kill anything around my area and is compact enough to still be semi-decent against a 2 legged creature. The AR is what I voted for. If I had to depend my life on one rifle it is going to be my AR. I wouldn't abandon the SKS but the AR would be by my side 24x7 in the case of the Ruskies have invaded.

ReadyontheRight
October 24, 2008, 02:09 AM
"Whatever rifle you know" is the best answer.

For me...M1 Garand.

owlhoot
October 24, 2008, 02:16 AM
A case of George Dickle and a box of really good cigars.

jackdanson
October 24, 2008, 02:51 AM
I love the "china attack" comments. China doesn't want anything except to be left alone. (oh, and "give us your money!!") China as a whole has no interest in a military conflict with the US, they would much rather sit back and let our cash flow into their coffers. They want power through economic, not military, means.

I can't see any large scale shtf situation happening in the forseeable future, so it is kind of moot point.

BTW I say m1a, despite not owning one. The extra range over everyone elses ak/ar would be useful.

mauiglide
October 24, 2008, 03:16 AM
I would use my AR-15 carbines if a Red Dawn/SHTF scenario would develop.

ParaElite
October 24, 2008, 04:21 AM
MY SHTF is an LMT with plenty of Magpul mags and plenty of green tip ammo. Handgun is a CZ 75B 9mm with extra mags and a lot of ammo.

gizamo
October 24, 2008, 07:18 AM
Hmmmm,

Living in the Foothills of the mountains in the NorthEast changes things a little...I didn't vote cause I didn't see my choice listed....I have a LE Mini-14 and that would be my go to rifle. If I had to pick between that and the 5 Bushmasters in the safe, the Mini would be the one I grabbed. Why? Cuz' if I had to git quick and hit the hills I won't be needing my optics. And I want something that is low maintenance, loose enough to fire through mud, crud, snow, and rain. Accurate enough at under 200 yards. Trust this, given this terrain, there won't be any long range shots...think thick, dense, cover.... Because if the SHTF, your not going to want to be inside a house trying to defend it. That is just plain wrong. Plywood and 2X4's aren't stopping anyone from shooting clear through your house. It would be like shooting ducks in a barrel.

Fast to shoulder and come on target....is very important to me. That is one area the Mini outclasses the AR. And please, I do not care about .25" MOA accuracy in a gun and run situation. Be more concerned with getting out alive then engaging in a firefight...

Fun Thread.....but if the SHTF you'll be more concerned with shelter, food, and water then you think....and your not going to want to lug around any more stuff then you absolutely need. Wonder how many here have given as much thought to their " Git Kit" as there choice of gun....:)

Giz

H2O MAN
October 24, 2008, 07:19 AM
Talk about bringing a thread back from the dead ~ this thing is over two years old!

I'm well prepared for if an when the Obama hits the fan.

Matt-J2
October 24, 2008, 10:27 AM
If it's more of a temporary situation, like natural disaster/riots, then whatever I've got at hand should do. My survival kit though would be about 37 cartons of various brands of cigarettes. You think you can gouge people on gasoline when these things happen, wait until all the heavy smokers start running out of smokes. :D

armoredman
October 24, 2008, 10:41 AM
One reason why I quit smoking ciagrettes! My pipe tobacco lasts MUCH longer, and goes a long ways... :)

FMJMIKE
October 24, 2008, 11:36 AM
I would use either an AK in 7.62 X 39 or an AK in .223. Depends on if I was planning on leaving the area. The .223 AK would go with me if I was on the move because I could scrounge .223 ammo more easily.
7.62 X 39 Sar-1
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/mbmphoto/sar1a.jpg
.223/5.56 Saiga AK
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/mbmphoto/Saiga1.jpg

Water-Man
October 24, 2008, 12:04 PM
I vote for NONE OF THE ABOVE. Having one of these weapons will matter little. I'll stick to my bolt and lever actions.

tribbles
October 24, 2008, 12:23 PM
All right, I'll play, even though over the years I've grown to have a distaste for these "what's your one SHTF rifle" threads.

While I love my FAL and its proclivity to turn cover into concealment, for most things I'd probably turn to my SKS, because it's an overall lighter and less cumbersome system than the FAL is.

If it's just getting meat in the stew pot, though, I think I'd have to turn to my Remington 552 .22 rifle with a fixed 4x scope on it.

Whatever it is, if it's a centerfire rifle and I can't reload for it with H4895, I don't want it.

Coal Dragger
October 24, 2008, 12:27 PM
I'll go with an AR platform rifle on this one for adaptability, common ammo, and common magazines.

I would also feel very comfortable with a SIG 556, in fact for rough use I would rather have that than an AR. Uses the same ammo and magazines though.

I like the .223 with the right bullets for a wide range of tasks, and any that can't be accomplished with a .223 my .308 SSG 69 will take care of nicely. Both can be reloaded with the same powder too (I use RL 15) which is nice.

USSR
October 24, 2008, 12:34 PM
What rifles you elect to have is not nearly as important as having the components with which to produce the ammo to feed them.

Don

natescout
October 24, 2008, 12:37 PM
M1A Bush Rifle, 7.62mm's of pure goodness http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm10/natesyz250/natespics021.jpg

Quickdraw Limpsalot
October 24, 2008, 12:38 PM
SHTF? I'll take a .22 rifle. I'm heading deep into the woods, not towards the mayhem.

spuscg
October 24, 2008, 12:43 PM
accurate bolt gun with a nice scope, id rather bad guys be 600 yards away from me, shotgun and pistols for home defense. An mp5/ump or something if i found one

ParaElite
October 24, 2008, 01:11 PM
In situations like SHTF, stay away from the highways, get a bicycle, find a water supply - a well or running stream - with a means of purifying it. First aid equipment, compass, GPS but batteries run down, and all the other stuff for surviving in the country. You can have the best guns and ammo and die of thirst or from organisms in most water supplies. A .22 lr is a must whether rifle or pistol. And then you want to start finding a community of like minded people you can trust. No man is an island unto himself. Oh yes, a bible.

Art Eatman
October 24, 2008, 01:35 PM
The KIND of gun is almost irrelevant. Suffice that there is a gun, ammo and skill.

Long-term survival of any serious SHTF situation will depend on one's neighbors as much as on one's own individual capabilities. If you really believe in the probability of such an event, you should already have moved to a location which meets the well-known parameters, have become involved with neighbors, and would not need to ask questions here. :)

If it's all a mystery at this late date, I dunno what to tell you. :D It's far beyond the purpose of this website.

taliv
October 24, 2008, 01:40 PM
If it's all a mystery at this late date, I dunno what to tell you. It's far beyond the purpose of this website.

heh, there it is

nuffsaid
October 24, 2008, 01:46 PM
In a SHTF scenario, I want to have food and water first!!! As far as weapons, any well maintaned firearm will do. Since most of us will leave our high dollar toys in the safe. I choose an AR with the AK a close second. 600 yard shots and farther are hard to make consistently when you are a fraid and pumped full of adrenaline from a disaster event in this country. Remember, true snipers are execellent at concealment and evasion. At ranges under 200 yards, all of them a good choices.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
October 24, 2008, 01:47 PM
You're gonna need to re-do this thread with a new poll, with a lot more choices - use the full 16 choices in the poll, and make sure to include the Robinson XCR. And you need to leave calibers out of your choice, since AR15s, AR10-styles, and AKs come in so many different calibers. You'd need around 100 poll choices, not 16, for that. Just put: AR15, AR10, AK, XCR, M14, M1 Garand, etc., etc. Otherwise, you won't show the choice of around half of people in that poll.

Edit: Lol, oops, nevermind; it's a 2-year old thread - ha!

ParaElite
October 24, 2008, 01:58 PM
It's a catch 22 situation about location and community. You go where the jobs are unfortunately. A lot of people work in the cities - how to get out of them is the question. Forget about a car - motorcycle or bicycle. Large groups of people panic and do really stupid things. You might have to shoot your way out of situations. Look at what happened in New Orleans. What if the police - after a long absence - come to confiscate your legally own firearms?

Gottahaveone
October 24, 2008, 02:22 PM
China only has 20 nuclear warheads, and no MERVS. 10 of these warheads are on ICBMs (intercontinental ballistic missiles) and only 5 of these have the capability to reach the US mainland. Then some of these would be shot down by AEGIS anti-Missile ships that that are very near China in the Pacific. So China lacks the ability to engage in a nuclear war with the US, let alone a conventional war.

Really? Can you link to a reliable source for that info? Just curious:)

As for the poll, I went with AR because it was what Unk Sam trained me on, and I have a nice M4gery with a couple of K of m193. More than I ever expect to shoot, but I expect barter to be a thriving process in that scenario.

texas bulldog
October 24, 2008, 03:42 PM
i didn't vote.

i hardly think the choice of weapon is going to matter in a SHTF scenario. if you've trained and planned ahead (and get a little lucky too), you can get by with any of those listed and many more that aren't.

if you don't have a plan, you probably won;t get through it with an abrahms tank.

lencac
October 24, 2008, 04:09 PM
I think in a SHTF scenario the real factor isn't what kind of firearm to use because in the hands of a competent shooter all the listed firearms are deadly. The issue becomes more about ones willingness to engage the enemy. Any of the listed firearms would be useless if in the hands of someone unwilling to pull the trigger.

22-rimfire
October 24, 2008, 04:17 PM
None of the above.

release879
October 24, 2008, 04:50 PM
AR variant for me.

More specifically, a Bushmaster Varminter Special.

xd9od
October 24, 2008, 10:26 PM
AR of course!

Walkalong
October 24, 2008, 10:30 PM
None of the above. My Mini 14 & my AR in .223, and my AK in 7.62 are all ready to go at all times. It used to be just my Mini 14.

Deus Machina
October 24, 2008, 10:31 PM
I picked an AK, for a few reasons.

1) I already have one, and that's important.
2) No matter how reliable ARs are, AK's just do not break, under any circumstances a human can possibly pull it out of.
3) If it does break, I seriously, literally, could fix it overnight at the longest.
4) Ammo. .223 is great and all, but in some sort of rebellion/last stand/Equilibrium situation, we won't be getting resupplied by anyone that issues 5.56! We'll have what we can grab at the store and capture, and if anyone comes to our aid it will be from Warsaw counties.

mercop
October 24, 2008, 10:43 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=401907

elmerfudd
October 24, 2008, 10:46 PM
I don't think the particular weapon will matter much. In fact a handgun, a large dog and the food to maintain it might go a lot farther than the latest, greatest EBR. Bad guys are opportunists who will try to ambush the weakest, easiest and most tempting targets they can find.

As others have already mentioned, having a large group of neighbors, family or friends would also be invaluable. If you've got 20 people supporting you, you'll do OK even if you're only armed with old Mosin Nagants, but if you're just one guy, they'll wait until your guard is down and take you out then. We all have to sleep, shower and work and we all get sick.

Lone_Gunman
October 24, 2008, 10:53 PM
The only way that a superior, trained paramilitary force could be impacted by non-suicidal civilians would be by single-shot longrange sniping, I think.

IED's would seem to be a better choice in my opinion.

mercop
October 24, 2008, 11:01 PM
Elmerfudd, I think you and I both agree that a good rifleman with a say a 91/30 Mosin Nagant could wreak havoc with that 7.62X54R round at quite a distance.

I just joined a club close to the house with targets out to 200 yards. With the price of ammo these days I think I will get some satisfaction shooting my Mosins and Mausers.

elmerfudd
October 25, 2008, 01:26 AM
Mercop,

I think that there would be a huge difference between just trying to survive in a war torn environment or in the wake of a disaster and actually fighting as a guerrilla or insurgent.

For survival purposes, I'm of the opinion that a couple of good handguns, (one full size, one mousegun), and a good fighting long gun, be it a shotgun or a rifle is probably all you need. In that situation, you're trying to avoid combat if at all possible. Being armed would be essential, but making a big show of it would likely bring the unwanted attention of whatever authorities, (police, military, gangs, mafia, etc...), were still existent.

As far as being a guerrilla, I think the Iraqi's have demonstrated how a lot of it is done on a modern battlefield and they seem to rely on IED's, close range sniping and assassination. It seems that when these groups go head to head with professional soldiers though, they get their butts kicked.

I'm sure a Mosin Nagant would be adequate for kills out to 300 yards or so, but it would be one of my last choices in a firearm if I actually had to go into harms way in the 21st century. They're reliable and powerful, but they don't mount optics well and they're certainly not well suited to CQB.

I've got five of them in my safe however and I do like taking them out to the range.

gizamo
October 25, 2008, 05:33 AM
Actually,

A bolt action 22 rimfire with a good supply of sub sonic ammo might be best. You can pot alot of meat and do so very quietly.....:)

Giz

Silvanus
October 25, 2008, 07:15 AM
I only have one rifle, so my FAL is what I would choose.

http://i40.servimg.com/u/f40/11/50/35/28/fal_gu12.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=108&u=11503528)

http://i40.servimg.com/u/f40/11/50/35/28/fal_gu13.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=112&u=11503528)

stubbicatt
October 25, 2008, 07:31 AM
Voted HK/FAL because of the round.

Truly guys, how many firefights do you suppose you are going to survive? As a deterrent in more or less civil times, a rifle is a good tool. In times of SHTF I think it tends to make you a target. Even those guys who practice manouver and tactics all the time, like the Army, occasionally get the hammer dropped on them by "lucky" insurgents.

One fat old white dude trundling down the street with a rifle, unable to climb fences, or run very fast, or go prone in an instant *might* be able to get off a few rounds.

A prepared fighting position is probably good for a few rounds, but then *everybody's* attention in the neighborhood focuses on where the shots are coming from, and it's off to the races...

There is a reason why war is fought by the young.

H2O MAN
October 25, 2008, 07:51 AM
stubbicatt

A prepared fighting position is probably good for a few rounds, but then *everybody's* attention
in the neighborhood focuses on where the shots are coming from, and it's off to the races...

:evil:
http://www.athenswater.com/images/SEI-FEI.30calcan.jpg

Pilot
October 25, 2008, 07:56 AM
You mention SKS in you original post, but its not an option in your poll. Neither is an AK in 5.45. I won AR's, AK's and SKS's. So I guess I could use them all, but I bought a ton of 5.45 ammo due to the low price, so would grab one of my AK's in that caliber. Its flat shooting and more accurate than 7.62 while I do own a Hungarian AK in 7.62, I've kept in NIB and never shot it. It will probably get sold at some point.

armoredman
October 25, 2008, 10:02 AM
Silvanus, gotta ask - what camo pattern is that? I like.

357wheelgunner
October 25, 2008, 10:09 AM
Remington 870, with buckshot and slugs, and a 9mm sidearm. Don't need to carry too much ammunition unless it's a zombie invasion. Like someone else said, go away from the mayhem, not into it or creating it.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c138/357wheelgunner/Picture080.jpg

woof
October 25, 2008, 10:16 AM
Me too for Marlin 1894 .357
and a .22lr rifle and pistol

mercop
October 25, 2008, 11:26 AM
357 Wheelgunner, who made that 12 ga ammo holder and where do I get mine?

Jaybird78
October 25, 2008, 12:59 PM
I think you've seen "Red Dawn" too many times.

If it came to that, engaging in that sort of foolishness would get you immediately killed from ten directions at once by trained people with superior equipment who operate in well-praticed squads. (and who would then laugh at you) The only way that a superior, trained paramilitary force could be impacted by non-suicidal civilians would be by single-shot longrange sniping, I think.

Ever hear of a war called Vietnam?

Welcome to the "Concrete Jungle" baby......your go'na die.

paratroop23
October 25, 2008, 01:52 PM
I couple of weeks ago I caught two clowns trying to break into my car. They ran off and the first weapons I grabbed was my AK variant and my HK USPc .45

I own each one of the rifles on the poll. But in the heat of the moment I grabbed the AK.

Matt-J2
October 25, 2008, 02:09 PM
Vietnam was a bit different. They had plenty of like minded friends helping out. Also, and this is pretty important, a support network amongst themselves, and from a state.

Smithiac
October 25, 2008, 02:23 PM
I voted AR variant I also keep a mini 14 for like caliber reasons

mgregg85
October 25, 2008, 02:30 PM
I vote AK in 7.62x39mm.

Great reliability, ammo isn't too heavy, and the ammo is widely available.

mercop
October 25, 2008, 02:57 PM
Stubbicat, well said

Silvanus
October 25, 2008, 06:49 PM
Silvanus, gotta ask - what camo pattern is that? I like.


It's a variant of the German "Flecktarn", called "Tropentarn". It's what the Bundeswehr wears in environments like Afghanistan.


Here's a picture of the standard Flecktarn pattern.

http://i50.servimg.com/u/f50/11/50/35/28/fal_fl10.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=157&u=11503528)

maniak
October 26, 2008, 01:28 AM
everytime we list the SHTF scenarios, we always leave out zombies.

armoredman
October 26, 2008, 01:56 AM
Thanks, Silvanus, I'll have to see if I can snag some of that Tropentarn, nifty stuff. Thanks!

Eightball
October 26, 2008, 02:31 AM
Whoa. My rifle collection has changed since I first voted and an M1 Garand was what I had.

Nowadays, either my M1 Carbine or AR15 would win.

NELSONs02
October 26, 2008, 02:47 AM
I vote AK. If i had reliable hi cap mags for my mini-30 it would get grabbed over the AK....

elmerfudd
October 28, 2008, 03:11 PM
if you have any sense you'll be in a rural enviorment if there is a SHTF situation.

I think that if you are seriously planning for SHTF you'll be living in a rural environment long before there is a SHTF situation, or at least have a well equipped retreat set up. There's a word for people that leave their homes with the possessions that they can carry or stuff in their cars and that's "refugees" and they invariably have a very rough time of it.

A bunch of city dwellers showing up in the woods with a couple bags full of supplies aren't going to last long. Once everyone starts taking game out of season with spotlights and snares, hunting will quickly become non-productive. People already living out in the country aren't going to welcome a bunch of armed squatters either. Much of the wilderness land where I live is in the mountains and I can't imagine hauling my family up into the Cascades and going through a winter up there with only a crude shelter and unseasoned wood to burn.

As for myself, my job is in the city and while I can envision a SHTF situation being possible, I don't think it's likely in the near term at least. Still, I have taken some precautions just in case the worst comes to pass. Even in the city, you can have food and water set aside, fruit trees and a vegetable garden, a fenced yard with a dog and a woodstove with enough seasoned firewood to make it through a couple of winters and provide a means to cook food if the power were out. I'd like to have a well and solar power too, but some things will have to wait. IMO, financial security is the one thing survivalists overlook the most and putting in a well and solar power would actually make me less secure at this point by taking too much money out of my savings. Saving money is smart even if you think SHTF is all a demented fantasy, but if you take it seriously, having the cash available to pay for food or fuel or bribes or plane tickets somewhere where life doesn't suck is a a damn good idea too. Who knows, SHTF might just turn out to be another great depression and then money would count more than all the rifles and water purifiers people have stockpiled.

The nice thing about preparing in this way is that it pays off even if there isn't a disaster. When I burn wood my electrical bill stays low. The fruit from my trees gets eaten regardless. The dog helps keep my house safe when I'm away and my savings will hopefully pay for a long retirement one day.

elmerfudd
October 28, 2008, 03:49 PM
My great grandfather lost the family farm in the depression. He was a Swedish immigrant and apparently had been quite successful as a farmer in the 20's. Unfortunately for my family, he expanded the farm using loans and couldn't keep up payments when prices collapsed in the 30's. Apparently this was common at the time, (it's all about 40 years before my time however).

In any event, I'm in full agreement with you that the countryside is where you want to be when things go bad. That's where the food comes from. The vast majority of Americans however live in urban areas now and I think they're deluding themselves if they think they can just head out to the country and live off the land. As you point out, there are already people out there living off what they rightfully regard as their land and they won't willingly allow a bunch of squatters to take up residence there.

Out here in the west, (those of us near the coast kind of think of Ohio as being back east), there are millions of acres of government land, most of which are wilderness. Still, that land would be very inhospitable for someone who just showed up there with a minimum of supplies. Most of it's not good farmland and the areas in the mountains often are snowed in half the year. Add to that the fact that if any government remains after whatever disaster occurs, someone with a uniform and a gun will eventually be coming around to tell you to leave.

MD_Willington
October 28, 2008, 04:09 PM
Since I own a Saiga in .223...

The S.223 + newly available mag adapter + AR Pmags... pickup other AR mags and keep going if it came to that.

Gunfighter123
October 28, 2008, 08:21 PM
I have a Colt ar-15 , two AKs, and two SA M1As -------- for my wife,she gets a AK , my daughter gets the AR and I would pick the short M1A Socom.
I like to keep AT LEAST 1000 rds. of ALL calibers plus I reload for all but the AKs {got 2 unopened cs. of that}.
The short M1A will still do head shots at 200yds and will go thru most cars, body armor etc.
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b199/Jailbird123/DSC00871.jpg

Caimlas
October 29, 2008, 12:40 AM
I've got enough rifles for my immediate and local extended family, should the need arise - both 7.62x39 and 5.56NATO (and in a couple other calibers). I figure: better to have a little diversity so that in the event of ammo unavailability/scarcity, we've at least got something for defense. .22LR is always likely to be available for food acquisition.

As for 7.62x39, I'm not fond of the AK. Yes, it's durable, but it's also heavy for small people without a lot of upper-body strength (ie women and children). And, personally, I have a difficult time shooting one without an American-made stock because the "Russian bloc" stocks are too short without winter clothing; combined with the general setup of the AK, I find it awkward. Not so much the case with the SKS, which feels more natural to me.

I'd like to get a .308 AK for those "reach out and touch something" situations - a little more firepower in the same basic package. The price on one is close enough to that of a 5.56 AR that it's justifiable now, and a .308 AR is still lighter than an M1A. IMO, weight is a big factor for SHTF.

There are also a lot of other viable options for 'diversification' such as shotguns - like the Saiga 12 or a common Mossberg.

A very real SHTF scenario is a war with China. I think that they would nuke us first then invade, probably in the west coast area or possibly thru Central America. Their forces all use an AK47 variant. During the vietnam war, the clack clack clack sound instantly identified an enemy as firing an AK47. I would much rather be firing an AR15/M16 in this type of scenario as I would be recognized as a "good guy" by the sound of my rifle.

In that (less likely than several other scenarios) scenario, you'd soon be hard-pressed for ammunition for your AR, even if you were well-stocked. In such a fight we'd likely be over-run and killed off pretty quickly due to sheer numbers, I think; but, failing that, we'd also quickly pick up the enemy's weapons when we're able.

Also, if you're drastically out-numbered, I can see a tactical advantage to using the enemy's weapons: the enemy might not identify it as hostile fire until they come under direct, personal fire (especially if there's a secondary front with ARs or similar).

Caimlas
October 29, 2008, 01:25 AM
China lacks the ability to project forces to foreign lands right now. China also lacks a blue-water navy and therefore they would have absolutely no naval or air support. The US navy would destroy them far before then.

How many 'cargo' ships come into the US every day from China? It takes an average of 11 days for these ships to traverse the Pacific to our shores; an additional 4 to 10 days in customs, depending on the season (ie Christmas). Add on another week or so for loading/unloading (liberal estimate, I think).

Now, these cargo ships can hold upwards of 10k containers; let's say conservatively, 6k containers for an average cargo ship, or maybe 5500 if they contain people. Conex containers - the long ones - are 8'x8'x48' with the smaller ones being 20' long. A Chinese jail cell is about 10'x10' and will hold 8-12 men for weeks with enough room for some basic exercise (stretching, push-ups, running in place) in shifts.

Assuming maybe 50% of the container capacity gets used for storage of munitions, food, light vehicles, and gear, this means they might be able to fit 20 men in each 48' container - for a conservative total of 100,000 equipped fighting men in a 6,000 container ship. [b]There are container ships now which have twice that capacity.

Now, how many cargo ships from China sit in our ports which have not been scanned or otherwise inspected? Get two or three of these into dock at the same time, and I imagine there'd be problems - shipping ports are kind of designed for the quick transmission of materials, and I can imagine this not only aiding in such an invasion, but making for an ideal staging point. Get two of these ships docked and they, almost immediately, have a substantial fighting force on the ground, allowing them to unload other (waiting) ships.

Unconventional? Sure. But seemingly feasible in my mind if our forces are distracted elsewhere in the world.

(Sorry for taking this so off-topic.)

Golden Hound
October 29, 2008, 01:40 AM
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHH!!! The Chinese could be listening!!

SCMtns
October 29, 2008, 02:19 AM
I voted M1A, because that's what I have for 1) fun and 2) the extremely unlikely events people here are talking about. I don't actually spend much time worrying about total breakdown of society, and in the event that it did happen I'd be a lot happier to have a large creek full of clean water 300 feet below my cabin, a water filter, and months' worth of food (all of which I do).

I don't stockpile much ammo. How many people am I really going to shoot? And if I did shoot that many people, would I even want to continue living? It'd be really messy. If I didn't bury them all pretty quickly, the stench would make a bad situation even worse.

Living in northern CA, where they take your gun and most likely keep it forever if you actually shoot somebody with it, there's no way I'd break out the M1A for anything less than a full-on collapse accompanied by... what? Large groups of rioters coming out to my hard-to-find part of the mountains and swarming my little cabin? I'm a lot more likely to break out my Mini 14 or 12-ga pump if the courts are still functioning, or might soon be functioning again. Much cheaper to replace. I won't spend the rest of my life pissed that the cops got either one.

If I could have an AR out here, I'd have at least one, but my vote for a true SHTF is still a .308 autoloader. I'm just fortunate that the morons' attempt at a semi-auto ban took the form of a cosmetics ban rather than a function ban, so I can own one of the few .308's I'd be interested in anyway. 5.56 is nice enough and will do a lot of jobs pretty well, but there's nothing like 7.62.

hangemhigh87
October 29, 2008, 02:55 AM
For a short term scenario like most folks who posted before me, some type of AR-15 or AK variant.

If the GOV ends up to be a problem, not a solution, and overt possession of military type semi autos becomes a problem, then go with a bolt action .308 or .223.

Keep lots of ammo on hand regardless of what caliber you choose. Learn to Cache.

Kalashnibud
November 7, 2008, 12:36 AM
With the political environment the way it is today, that may be a reality. I know there are millions of unhappy people at this moment. They'll even be unhappier if there is an executive call to disarm Americans.

Could it happen in these United States? You betcha!

TonyDedo
November 7, 2008, 01:02 AM
None of the above. My SHTF firearm is and will remain a Mossy 590A1 shotgun. I prepare for 'realistic' SHTF scenarios; natural disaster, terror attach, civil unrest or anything that's going to keep police and fire resources preoccupied. Feel free to shun me, but I just don't buy into the the 'Red Dawn' or Zombie attack scenarios.

And in the former scenarios, I cannot fathom a situation where I need (or could justify using) a firearm with the range and firepower of those listed.

Seriously, I challenge you guys to name a situation where you'd need an AR or AK where a shotgun wouldn't suffice. When the hell do you anticipating needing to take 100+ yard shots, or running through 30 round magazines? And once order is restored and they haul your ass before a judge, how do you expect to justify your use of deadly force?

Even in Texas, I guarantee if you pick someone off at 100 yards, your ass is going to be behind bars.

As much as I'd like to be fighting off Communist invaders with my AR, or taking out Zombies at 600 yards with my M14, I have to remain realistic about my disaster preparation needs. I have a .45 and a 12 gauge and enough defensive ammo to keep both well stocked. Beyond that, money, food & water, gasoline and a generator are my disaster prep priorities.

BHP FAN
November 7, 2008, 01:36 AM
Tony,I too have a 12 ga. [mine's a Winchester] and a .45,and those are great choices.The man asked about rifles,though,and if you were hungry and saw a deer at 200 yards,could you harvest it for meat with your 12 ga?I do think your choices are the best for a hurricane Katrina type event though.

TonyDedo
November 7, 2008, 01:46 AM
Tony,I too have a 12 ga. [mine's a Winchester] and a .45,and those are great choices.The man asked about rifles,though,and if you were hungry and saw a deer at 200 yards,could you harvest it for meat with your 12 ga?I do think your choices are the best for a hurricane Katrina type event though.

I doubt I could SEE a deer at 200 yards, let alone shoot it.

But I live in an urban area and it's difficult to foresee a situation where hunting for food would become necessary. I have a good supply of food and water on hand, and I don't think there's much in the way of game animals nearby. But for those of you in the woods, maybe it's something to consider.

BHP FAN
November 7, 2008, 01:57 AM
Yeah,I have the Pacific ocean about a mile to my left,and a gazillion acres of Redwood forest to my right,and my brother just got back from a three week deer hunting trip out on Buck Mountain...so,I could knock over a deer or bear if I had to.The problem would be most of Northern California and Southern Oregon would be trying to do the same thing.Maybe I'd be better off with a fishing pole?

Ignition Override
November 7, 2008, 02:07 AM
I don't have any of those.
Between my Mini 14, 30 and SKS, the SKS.

But if criminals (in an extremely unlikely scenario), are one day known to shoot often from cars at homeowners, one of my Mosin Nagant 44s might be better for this situation. These will penetrate, maybe damage an engine/fuel tank.

How much minimum ammo in a given caliber would you guys keep long-term and never touch
(ganz und gar verboten), in order to have as "life insurance"?

BHP FAN
November 7, 2008, 02:33 AM
200 rounds per caliber would be a good starting point.

Monkeybear
November 7, 2008, 02:40 AM
Well the two possible ways the S can HTF where I am at is either:

A hurricane. In this case I will be outfitted with a pair of SHTF Tactical 5.11 pants.

or

Riots. If some event occurs that induces rioting my plan is to hole up inside and thus I will likely be wearing pajama pants.

I have two bags. One has 5 loaded G3 mags and the other has 40. In all honesty I think I will die of old age before shooting a single round from either of them, but they are there.

youngun82
March 11, 2009, 01:06 PM
AR15, XD45, 870, .308 Bolt ..... that would pretty much cover any senerio. Main thing is to have alot of ammo. Otherwise you got some nice looking clubs.

KINGMAX
March 11, 2009, 01:16 PM
AMMO will be the issue when The SHTF Day comes along. I believe that if you look around the AK in 7.62x39 wll be out on the battle field in force. I think w/ that in mind, you will be able to pick up ammo and replacement parts needed to get yourself going. (just MOHO)

jackdanson
March 11, 2009, 01:17 PM
found a navy arms jungle carbine in .308 for ammo commonality between our fire team

Usually I go with an AR with an acog + 3x aimpoint zoom mod, 2 vertical grips, 3 surefire lights, 2 lasers, an m203 replica that shoots shotgun shells, 5 beta c-mags, and a modified vibrating bayonet.

I also have ninjistu skills, which means I have claws made to climb up trees.

theotherwaldo
March 11, 2009, 01:23 PM
I figure, one of each, plus whatever looks interesting.

Justin
March 11, 2009, 01:30 PM
This thread is over a year old.

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