best shotgun for home defense??

[Captain Scarlet]

what shotgun would you buy for home defense? an auto loader
or a pump or a double barrel break open type? and what kind of
load do you think is the best manstopper? :confused:

[Andrew Wyatt]

I prefer pump shotguns, stoked with low recoil 00 buck.


dave'll give you more and better information soon, but any shotgun round has an OSS percentage of around 100%.

[Sir Galahad]

Winchester 1300 Defender. Ohhh, yea, baybee!:evil: Just out shooting one of mine today. Seven shots in tube, one in chamber. All shots out the bore almost as fast as an auto. Target looked like a cheese grater.

[Hkmp5sd]

The pump shotgun's capacity makes it preferable over a break open shotgun and it is less complex than the autoloader. The sound of the gun being racked is a crime deterent all by itself. Generally shifts the "fight or flight" decision in favor of flight.

[KimberKid]

"The sound of the gun being racked is a crime deterent all by itself." Don't bet your life on it.

If it's speed for pure speeds sake the Benelli auto's can fire the fifth round before the first one hits the ground, I've done it. And if you believe the 870 and Mossy is more reliable than the Benelli auto's think again. However, bang for the buck has made the 870 #1.

Buckshot of #4 or bigger staggered with slugs with a full length stock and choke-tube shortened barrel, no sling to get hung-up. If you are worried about shooting the neighbors, called 911 as the chances are better than 90% the intruder will be a neighbor or at least someone you know.

KK

[Andrew Wyatt]

I'd advise against using slug in an inside the home HD situation, for fear of overpenetration.


slugs go on my bandolier, but only for longer range situations out of doors.

[Sir Galahad]

I doubt that 90% of intruders are neighbors or people you know. If the door is unlocked, yes, there is the chance a neighbor might accidently come into the house. But otherwise, I have a hard time believeng 90% are neighbors.

I also have a hard time accepting the use of slugs inside a house with neighboring homes close by. I thought one of the advantages of the shotgun was to minimize overpenetration. I am not understanding the thought process behind this "more penetration" idea in home defense. I have recently read a thread where .308 was advocated as a home defense round. It seems that the gun community has to keep re-inventing the wheel at the expense of the people that live next door.:rolleyes: It only takes one bad shoot with an overpenetrating round killing a neighbor's kid to create 1,000 anti-gunners.

[Hkmp5sd]

If it's speed for pure speeds sake the Benelli auto's can fire the fifth round before the first one hits the ground, I've done it.

If it's speed for speed's sake, I'd use one of my fullautos, one of which has a 1200 rpm cyclic rate and can have virtually the entire magazine's expended brass in the air at the same time.

Reliability of the gun is not in question. The skill of the operator in using the gun is what I was referring to. For a homeowner that rarely/never practices with their home defense shotgun, IMO, the pump shotgun is a better choice over an autoloading shotgun. Clearing a FTF or a non-fire from a dead primer is easier for an unskilled shooter using a pump.

[Mastrogiacomo]

My father and I would like to get a shotgun for home defense. Our permits though only allow five shots and under. Which is best?

If I wanted a good gun for shooting clays -- which barrel length fo a 5'2" 115lb woman?

[glockster96]

I doubt that 90% of intruders are neighbors or people you know. If the door is unlocked, yes, there is the chance a neighbor might accidently come into the house. But otherwise, I have a hard time believeng 90% are neighbors.

Did you know that 47% of all statistics are made up as the poster types them? :rolleyes: :D



Oh, and get a Benelli.

And practice.

Lots.

[riverdog]

If I wanted a good gun for shooting clays -- which barrel length fo a 5'2" 115lb woman? Barrel length is a matter of personal preference relative to the game or function for which the shotgun will be used. My Rem 870 a 20" barrel for HD, a 26" for Skeet and a 30" for Trap. Both the 26" and 30" are threaded to accept Rem Choke Tubes, the 20" is strictly Improved Cylinder. Different functions, different barrels and feel.

[Smoke]

For home defense I use and endorse the Remington 870.

For clays for a 5'2" woman: Go to gunstore, handle as many as they have in the rack, buy the one that "feels" right.

[Art Eatman]

About 20 years ago, I got into a discussion about a single "do it all" shotgun with John Satterwhite. (Member of US Olympic Skeet & Trap teams; winner, PanAmerican games, etc.)

He advocated an 870, with mods: Convert to fire like a Model 12. Barrel just longer than a 7-round extended mag. Vent rib with half size front bead, and with a Williams folding rear sight dovetailed into the front of the taper of the barrel. Threaded for choke tubes. Small "compensator" holes drilled just behind the choke for recoil control.

With the mag plugged to three rounds, the swing and balance is quite similar to a 28" shotgun. The chokes allow appropriate patterns for whatever hunting you do. An open choke and the rear sight make it a pretty good slug-gun. And the conversion to "tromboning" let him get off seven shots in some 3.4 seconds or so.

Home defense, inside the house? I'm a believer in #9 Skeet loads for the first shot or two--unless your house is a heckuva lot bigger than mine.

Mastrogiacomo, why not start a new thread about Claybird shotguns? And, even that will vary among Skeet, Trap and Sporting Clays.

:), Art

[sm]

HD, pump gun, hard to beat an 870.

Clay games, different criteria, the biggest is Gun Fit.

That said , I know a # of persons, regardless of gender or stature, that their first firearm was a shotgun. They got into clay games, and while they were learning about RKBA, Constitution, and anything else regarding what many of us discuss, they were well equipped to defend the home by changing loads in their skeet/trap/s/c gun.

In particular a know a 4'10" petite lady that started with an 1100 20 ga...she may come from an anti-gun family background, but she has come around 180*...1100 with 7/8 oz for skeet and s/c...#3 buck for her bedroom. She patterned the #3 buck and still practices with it...she'll be just fine.

[Dave McCracken]

The make/model of shotgun is not nearly as important as the operator's ease of use, training and experience.

In trained hands, any short barrelled variant of the Big Four pumps is deadly. Handle a few and get what feels best.

For a tyro, I highly recommend getting a few lessons from a qualified instructor.

[Mikul]

When I spend too long deciding which one I would own, I wound up with an 870 with a 7-round magazine and an 18.5" barrel.

If I didn't care too much about magazine capacity and the ability to easily switch barrels so it could double as a trap gun, I would have gone with a Benelli Montifeltro. It's a great gun with minimal recoil.

[TechBrute]

And if you believe the 870 and Mossy is more reliable than the Benelli auto's think again. I'm curious to see the information that leads you to make this claim.

[Andrew Wyatt]

the infinite tacticality makes the benelli superior, of course.

[Mastrogiacomo]

Anyone know of NRA shogun instructors in the North Shore area of Massachusetts? We're from Peabody and hoping to find some instruction in shotguns before we go shopping for one. :)

[Dave McCracken]

Andrew, et al....

Any Benelli owners out there within a 2 hour drive of Central Md is welcome to a mano a mano match. Use your Benelli, ammo of choice, and COF. I'll use one of my "Serious" 870s and matching ammo.

We shoot for score, time decides ties. Results get posted rat cheer.

Here's a chance to establish whether the Benelli is das Ubergun, or show off your skills, or both.

Any takers?....

[riverdog]

Uh oh, Dave just threw down a gauntlet ...

Make sure the COF runs longer than a single magazine and includes both shot and slugs (with different targets requiring different loads). The challenge is load management -- when you hit a steel target with shot it doesn't go down and if you shoot paper with a slug you're only credited for one hole. Other than that it's all about speed and reliability ;) Then again it's not my COF ...

As a relative newbie, Skeet can be shot with an 870 and while doubles is work, it's not that hard. Dave's been using an 870 much longer than I so ... some(Benelli)body take Dave up on this, so we can see an honest head-to-head contest.

[PJR]

The pump gun is more mechanically reliable but is more dependent on the operator. The semi is less dependent on the the operator but is more finicky in other regards. I've seen more semis hangup up than pump guns, usually caused by improper cleaning or shells that were too light.

I like the pump because I can stuff anything into the gun from blanks to 3" magnums and it will work as long as I do my part.

Benellis are good guns but they are not vastly superior. It's just that some Benelli owners want to think of them that way. ;)

Paul

[glockster96]

Andrew, et al....

Any Benelli owners out there within a 2 hour drive of Central Md is welcome to a mano a mano match. Use your Benelli, ammo of choice, and COF. I'll use one of my "Serious" 870s and matching ammo.

We shoot for score, time decides ties. Results get posted rat cheer.

Here's a chance to establish whether the Benelli is das Ubergun, or show off your skills, or both.

Any takers?....

Sorry Dave, I live in Kansas.

But if you are down this way (Southcentral KS), you are more than welcome to stop at one of our monthly 3 gun matches. They are the 4th saturday of every month and include at least 1 shotgun stage every month.

Information can be found at:

www.arkcity3gun.com

Cheers, and sorry I can't meet you and shoot with you.

[Skunkabilly]

My father and I would like to get a shotgun for home defense. Our permits though only allow five shots and under. Which is best?

If I wanted a good gun for shooting clays -- which barrel length fo a 5'2" 115lb woman?

Thread veer!

Mastro, does the '5 shots' include the chamber or just the magazine?

And I thought a lady never tells, but I weigh about the same as you. Do you have long arms?

[Duke of Lawnchair]

what shotgun would you buy for home defense?

Cpt. Scarlet,

I'd opt for a semiauto stoked with 2 3/4" Federal Premium 00 buck.

Why? Because I'm not too fond of pumps and nearly half of the buck I threw down range has been Federal Premium. The fodder has been reliable and patterns well in my scattergun.

Personal preference. I'm too lazy to rack the weapon after each shot fired.

Would I purchase a pump shotgun? Sure, just because I can.

All this jibba-jabba of Benelli this or 870 that or 590 here or there are most likely based upon personal experiences.

Find a shotgun that you're comfortable with and a manual of arms that you dig. Just because a 590 owner loves the simplicity or manual of arms of the 590 doesn't necessarily mean he/she will appreciate the manual of arms of the Benelli Nova and vice versa.

What is das ubergun? The one you shoot best with...

Jim

[Dave McCracken]

Actually, I "threw down the gauntlet" not to demonstrate the superiority of either an 870 or a Benelli, but to show that the critical factor was the shooter, not the tool he or she picks.

Maybe a thread on what makes a good shotgun is due.

As for the original question of what shotgun to get for home defense, my pick MIGHT be an 870 for most folks, or a 20 gauge 1100 for pixies.

Training and experience are more important than brand.

[Mastrogiacomo]

Tried the Remey 870 in a store last night but not the 18" express synthetic I had been eyeing. It was heavy!:uhoh: I think it was a 26" barrel. Don't know if I'd have the strenth for the that...the 20 gauge as a 21" or 22" barrel (possibly a 20" but I don't recall) and it felt easier to hold. The sales guy said the 20 gauge was great for home defense as well especially since some women, like his girlfriend, prefer it to the 12. Unfortunatley, it's not a great choice for shooting clays....

I've got to choose something with a barrel length (unless I'm good then I can go with the shorter barrels but harder to hit). I'm lost trying to think of a 12 I could hold and shoot with. Natually, I'll have to wait on buying until I take some lessons in and try using them first.

[PJR]

The sales guy said the 20 gauge was great for home defense as well especially since some women, like his girlfriend, prefer it to the 12. Unfortunatley, it's not a great choice for shooting clays....
Paging HSMITH. There's a sales guy is Massachusetts who needs refuting.

In the meantime let me add my two cents worth. Anyone who says the 20 gauge isn't a great choice for clays hasn't done much clay shooting. It will do just fine on any of the games.

What is more important is that you have a gun you are comfortable and familiar with. A gun that is too heavy, recoils excessively and/or fits poorly doens't encourage you to get out and practice. It is infinitely better to have a 20 gauge with which you are comfortable.

I think an excellent choice for shooting clays is the Beretta 391 in 20 gauge. It's light, recoils less due to the gas action and is available in a Youth model with shorter stocks and barrels. Reminton also makes a shorter version of the 1100 and 870 in 20. They are all good choices.

Paul

[Dave McCracken]

Mastro, most women I've taught(maybe 100) have been quite capable of holding and operating a 12 gauge. Many would have been more comfortable with a 20, all else equal.

Janice Parks, formerly of MD DOC and at last hearing with the US Marshalls, is close to your size and absolutely deadly with a riot 870. Committment and mindset are big reasons why. Good training helped.

And, a 20 works for clays, and at some games, works very, very well.

While you're deciding which one, try doing curls and presses with very light weights, say 5 lb ones for starters and go to 8 lbs when things build up. After you get a few lessons and start shooting, your shotgun of choice makes a great barbell(G)...

HTH....

[themic]

for me, mossy 500 with 2 3/4" #8 birdshot (do not want to overpenetrate in an apt building) and my shortest smooth bore non-tapered barrel

[KimberKid]

Dave, if I lived within a 2 hour drive of Central Md, I'd move.

And like the Benelli ad says a shooter CAN put 5 shells in the air at once, try that with your "serious" 870.

If your ever get to a state shoot in Mason Michigan or the Grand let me know. I would consider it a honor to receive a shooting lesson from you.

KK:rolleyes:

[Andrew Wyatt]

I can put five shells in the air with my mossberg.


I'd have to grab it by the barrel and swing it like a bat, though.



why on earth do you find the ability to put five empty cases in the air so greviously important?

[Nippy]

I have a 11-87 which is a semi-auto loaded with 2 3/4" Federal Premium 00 buck. I don't put any slugs because I don't see any use for them within the range of an apartment defense situation.

When your home gets burglerized or what not chances are there is more than one person so I would opt with a semi-auto for speed to engage multiple targets even if I had a pump.

I agree with Dave that speed depends on the shooters skill.

For me though, I know that there is no way I can shoot faster and more accurate with a pump than with a semi-auto. I would think that hands down, in the same hands, a semi-auto is faster than a pump. So I opted to get comfortable with a semi-auto.

KimberKid: 5 shells? You need a mag-extension so you can put 8 in the air :)

[Al Thompson]

That salesman is sadly mistaken - I actually do quite well with my 20 at all clay games. Well, as good as I can do with my 12s.

I had a benelli and found the manual of arms to be so out of line with my 1100/870 muscle memory that I sold it. Yes their fast, but except for games or military action, IMHO, it's a wonderful solution to a non-existant problem. The icing onthe cake was that I sold the Benelli and bought two police trade-in 870s and a bunch of ammo for that amount of money. IMHO, I more than doubled my capability for the money.

The youth model shotguns are real sleepers for HD. Ayoob talks about them in his shotgun book and I agree with his point that they work very well, regardless of your skills. Anything you can do with a 12, you can do better with a 20.

[rxw]

Okay... I'm here to learn. From what I've gathered form reading HD posts is the following "general" rules of thumb regarding 12 and 20 gauge:

Typical Spread:
1 inch spread per 1 yard
= 15 inches (1 foot) @ 15 yards
= 25 inches (2 foot) @ 25 yards
= 30 inches (2.5 foot) @ 30 yards
= 45 inches (4 foot) @ 45 yards

Optimal Loads:
- Any buckshot if within 30 feet (000/00 is a real knockdown, but too much penetration for HD, but great for open defense... use Nr. 4 or greater for HD)
- More pellets if outside 30 feet (BB is better)
- Slugs if beyond 45 feet
- For monsters & aliens, several rounds of "depleted Uranium rubbed with garlic" is best.

[Skunkabilly]

And like the Benelli ad says a shooter CAN put 5 shells in the air at once, try that with your "serious" 870.


The same guy can do the same thing with that Benelli Nova...you can download the video, it's pretty rad.

I'm sure Dave could whoop me if I had his serious shotgun and he had a spear, but I dare him to bring a guitar to a banjofight :D

[Dave McCracken]

K-Kid, 5 shells in the air will only impress me if they match with 5 COM hits on 5 different targets.

If you're that one shotgunner out of umpteen good enough use to use all that speed productively, you should give ME the lesson. And if you are that shotgunner, you'll be absol-freakin' deadly with ANY decent shotgun.

Speed's nice, but accuracy's final.

rxw, that inch per yard rule of thumb is just that. Real world results are influenced by choke, load, temperature, and heaven knows what. Best to try out different loads in YOUR shotgun and go with what patterns tightest.

[Smoke]

Any Benelli owners out there within a 2 hour drive of Central Md is welcome to a mano a mano match. Use your Benelli, ammo of choice, and COF. I'll use one of my "Serious" 870s and matching ammo.

I want to play too. BUt I don't have a Benelli and I'm more like 22 hours from MD. :(

I'd still like to play though......

[TechBrute]

And like the Benelli ad says a shooter CAN put 5 shells in the air at once, try that with your "serious" 870. Of course you can't hit anything at that rate, but at least you've got bragging rights. When I see you standing next to Miculek and Leitham (spelling?) at national 3 gun matches, THEN I'll believe that you can hit something at that rate.

For the record, I own a Benelli, among others.

Oh yeah, plenty of sporters use a 20.

[Penforhire]

Nobody is talking about the trigger action. I dearly love my 870 for skeet. But that trigger is too light and short for what I consider in-home "defense" use. It is right in the 1911 category, which I know many people here love for self defense. But I'm deadly enough accurate with my P99's long pull. Anyone make a shotgun with a longer pull?

Also, when the SHTF do you REALLY want to have to remember to rack every round in? That 870 trigger pull may become the loudest click you ever heard.

[HS/LD]

I have a simple Winchester Defender 1300 (that's a pump for the unaware), as reliability is a primary concern with a "Home Defense" role in mind.

It's loaded with 6 2 3/4" magnum 00 buckshot and the final (7th) is a Brenneke slug (can't remember why I had the slug as the last round... I am sure I had a good reason though.) Cruiser ready... (chamber empty)

The butt cuff holds another 6, 3 each of buckshot and slugs and the sidesaddle another 6 again.

The ability to pick up in one hand that amount of fire power is the reason I chose a pump gun as my nightstand security device.

20 rounds of 12 gauge in one neat little packet.

Pump vs. Auto. I have one of each both loaded and ready to go I would prefer to grab the pump when it was about saving lives.

HS/LD

[Felinx]

Ok I'm fairly new to shotguns so please don't slam me if i say something foolish. I also would like to say I enjoy reading these forums because people engage very nicely in discussions so thanks for reading this:D

It seems that for the same shooter a pump would be much slower than a semi-auto so speed wise I think a semi-auto wins.

Winner: Semi-auto

Accuracy wise, for the same shooter, I don't see how racking the shotgun makes it more accurate. And this is a shotgun not a rifle so I don't think it differs in semi-auto loading onto the carrier or pump loading onto the carrier.

Winner: Tie (i.e. pump or semi-auto)

Reliability is probably the most ambiguous quality that I can't actually determine a winner. I read a lot of "pumps are more reliable" but usually the reason is "just because it is". Any logical or scientific facts to prove this? I've seen a bunch of pumps go down 870's, mossies you name it (my 870 had a cream de poop Type III jam, had to get the shell out with my key) at a range while the 3 lone semi's had no problem.
If the semi’s were sooo unreliable how come people at the top of Three Gun matches don’t use pumps.

Winner: no clear winner or maybe a Tie :confused:

What else is there left? Speed, Reliability, Accuracy. I think I got em all.

To me it seems the semi-auto is the BEST HD gun. Because its faster, the accuracy is the same as a pump, and which is more reliable is up in the air. Any rebunks?

[Art Eatman]

Wuz reading an article about scope sights, today. The author commented that if something broke, it usually happened (to him) within the first 30 or forty rounds of shooting. Seems to me that's reasonably probable for the firearms, themselves, but with the caveat that anything can break after protracted use.

You buy your shotgun for home defense. Fine. Test it out with two or three boxes of shells. After that, I'd think that becoming a really good shotgunner would mean having another, similar-action shotgun whose life-saving reliability is unimportant: Claybirds don't shoot back. The home defense gun should be reserved for occasional function-checking, but not "run and run and run".

I dunno. Just a view about a dedicated home defense critter...

Art

[Jokerman]

For home defense: a Mossberg Model 500 Cruiser 6-shot 20-gauge w. 18.5" barrel and pistol grip. Federal #4 buckshot. Or you might as well get a bazooka.

[sm]

Art makes a good point.

The old model 37 we kept at my dad's place only left the store a few times, at that was with me. I honestly don't think my dad ever fired that gun. I did the pattern testing , chose the loads and such. I inspectd and maintained. He has a 870 and figured I guess he'd be ok. Course I do recall all his medals when he was in the Guard.

I know others whom keep one at the office and practice with another. I in fact have assisted with the buying of two and giving lessons.

[Felinx]

quote:
________________________________

Actually, I "threw down the gauntlet" not to demonstrate the superiority of either an 870 or a Benelli, but to show that the critical factor was the shooter, not the tool he or she picks.

Maybe a thread on what makes a good shotgun is due.

As for the original question of what shotgun to get for home defense, my pick MIGHT be an 870 for most folks, or a 20 gauge 1100 for pixies.

Training and experience are more important than brand.
____________________________________

Of course the main factor is the shooter. So lets say a user puts in same amount of training time with a semi-auto and a pump. Accuracy same, speed... not so same.

Watch some experienced 3-gunners clean a plate rack with an auto; a pump just can’t keep up. In IPSC 3-Gun you will hardly ever see a pump used any more, even in tactical matches using an auto has a speed advantage for example when firing from an awkward position. What are you going to do when you only have one hand to use??

Semi-auto is the way to go for HD. Cpt Scarlet

:D

[Andrew Wyatt]

Watch some experienced 3-gunners clean a plate rack with an auto; a pump just can’t keep up. In IPSC 3-Gun you will hardly ever see a pump used any more, even in tactical matches using an auto has a speed advantage for example when firing from an awkward position.

have you ever had to fire your auto through a firing port situated such that a wall was an inch away from your ejection port?

the SWAT magazine 3 gun match had a shotgun stage like that not that long ago. EVERY AUTO CHOKED.

the pump guys were able to rotate their gun over so the case cleared the port and the wall before racking the slide.

[Felinx]

Good point, no I haven't and I'm glad you brought that up. Next time I find myself in that situation I'll do what the pumps did with my semi, just tilt the gun. I'll rotate my gun over so the case clears the port and the wall... but I won't need to rack the slide :D

[Feanaro]

Pump versus semi is like 45 versus 9mm. I've seen people who could operate a semi so fast it was almost automatic. It all depends on what works for you.

My vote is for the 870. Cheap, effective, reliable. Number one buck, no staggered crap. Just buck.

[Felinx]

quote:
--------------------------
Pump versus semi is like 45 versus 9mm. I've seen people who could operate a semi so fast it was almost automatic. It all depends on what works for you.
------------------
First off, good point. No staggered stuff just buck I would agree. No color coordination either, I can't see what is green and red in the dark.

My point is not who can be the fastest and accurate but what makes YOU the fastest and most accurate home defender.

I don't think it is quite like 45 vs 9mm but I think I see what you are trying to get at and I do believe this argument can be different. Sure in the end it all depends on what works for you but what if you started off with a semi-auto. You'd be faster than you would be if you started off with a pump and just as accurate.

BTW Adrew, I just tried what the "semi-auto" users did in the 3 gun match with my pump. 10/10 it choked. I think it is user error more than gun problem.

[Feanaro]

I like pumps. I have never liked semi-auto shotguns. They don't feel right. It isn't quite 45 vs 9mm but it's the same princible: taste. I feel confident that I could rack my semi fast enough to take on a gang. Some people might not. So get an auto.

I'm sure you would be faster with your semi. But I can never do as well with an auto as I can with a pump.

[Felinx]

Yah, I won't argue with that. If you just don't like semi's then I wouldn't force it on you. I would totally agree to go with what you are best at. Personally I hope I never have to use my shotgun for home defense (i hope that situation never happens). But I want to continue since I think it is fun to hear different opinions on the "Best Shotgun for Home defense" ;)

I'll speed this thread up and flip my argument of speed right on me and say well "hey, when are you going to need the fast cyclic rate of a semi-auto in a home defense situation anyway". Answer (i don't know for sure) would most likely be never. So now people might say well then since speed doesn't matter (semi's greatest advantage) accuracy is about the same then both semi and pump are the same in HD. ALMOST a taste issue... But not quite yet.

Andew brought up a point, awkward positions. What if you've only got one arm to use. What if something obstructed you from pumping like a spouse or child clinging on to you out of fear. Another advantage of a semi in HD, you don't need to pump.

[Feanaro]

Can't argue with that. But frankly if I can't use both hands then the shotgun is going to be hard to use, pump or semi.

[Dave McCracken]

Felinx, after 40 years of using 870s,I cannot recall ever forgetting to pump.At some point in the learning curve, it becomes second nature.

As for all the autos in "Practical" competition, it ain't practical any more. Look at the handguns.
Same deal.

The idea of maintaining a HD shotgun and not shooting a lot while shooting a similar one is good. I originally bought my second 870 and set it up for "Serious" and slug work for that purpose. It's shot often,the HD one is shot a bit every year but not extensively.

This may be more critical on shotguns other than the 870,which comes very close to mechanical immortality.

[WVleo]

Hi, Nothing seems to scare the crap out of all things living more than racking the slide on my 20ga.870 rem with a 20" barrel loaded with Win. 3buck orWinSupremeXXMag 5 shot. Better than a warning shot !!! WVleo

[riverdog]

I'm with Dave on this. I have one 870 which is set-up for HD and another that I use for Clay games (along with an O/U). The first time out shooting Skeet I did forget to pump, it was a bad habit from Trap where time wasn't critical. Once I got past that, I haven't forgotten to pump since.

One of the more important attributes of the Rem 870 is overall cost. You can afford to buy more than one and have them set up for different functions. Clay games will get you much more proficient using a shotgun than you might think.

Buy two 870's (both for about $500) and take them both out to shoot Skeet. Afterward, take the smoothest of the two and make that your HD shotgun. Keep shooting the second one at Skeet and Trap for proficiency training.

Just a random thought, my opinion and all that.

[Felinx]

I don't think I ever mentioned about forgetting to rack a shotgun, if I did I would take that back. I would think that if you are going to use your pump for home defense that not forgetting to rack it won't even be a factor. Maybe you got that idea when I mentioned the situations that may occur that inhibit your ability to pump the shotgun.

What about home defense. I still think the semi-auto is leading the way. If it really doesn't matter which one to use lets prove it.

What do you mean by "practical" shooting. Do you mean trap shooting? and if you wanted something with "slug work" there is no shotgun out there that was better built for "selecting a slug" in the middle of shooting than a M1 Super90. Just look at the manual of arms. In order for you to select a slug you just rack the bolt handle back and insert one onto the carrier. Thats fast and smooth. Can't do that on any other gun that I know of.

[riverdog]

With an 870 you just put a slug in the magazine and pump as usual. It might just be faster the the M1 Super90 MOA :)

Trap shooting is not practical ... just practice.

[Duke of Lawnchair]

With an 870 you just put a slug in the magazine and pump as usual. It might just be faster the the M1 Super90 MOA

Right on. I didn't know that we could do that with topped-off magazine tubes!

[Felinx]

With a topped off magazine tube and one in the chamber.

To select slug on a pump you gotta rack (thats one) to eject a good round (thats one) then stick one slug into the mag tube. Then rack again (you lose another good round and another rack) and now you are ready to fire. fire

Expended rounds : 2 + 1 slug so you are now 3 rounds down from a fully loaded shotty.

Racks: 2

For a M1 Supa 90.

Rack once (thats one) and eject a shell (that one good round) then select slug and load directly into the magazine from the ejection port. Youre now ready to fire. Fire

Expended rounds: 1 + 1 slug you are now 2 rounds down.
Racks : 1

You can't beat it. You're up more rounds in your shotty and it takes one less "rack" to get it going. Now THAT is a tactical advantage. (yuck you made me use the word tactical :( )

Also, the key to a shotgun winning a pistol fight is to ALWAYS keep it fully loaded. You shoot one round you load one round.

.................
Would be the end of me post if I were like most people trying to put up a fog of My shotty is better than yours. But my point of contiuing to post on this thread is for the new guy who doesn't know what to look for.

Now in a HD scenario I keep mine cruiser ready. I have a choice as soon as I sense danger to rack and then load one. Or...

Not fully loaded shotgun:
Pump: load slug in the tube rack and you are there.
1 spent shell
1 rack

M1Super90: rack, load one in the magazine you're there. Or do the same as the pump BUT, you need to hit the carrier release so the slug gets loaded onto the carrier.

1 spent shell
1 rack

however!! When you load into the magazine (M1S90)you have to slide the charging bolt back and load it. Now if that action is faster or slower than the action of loading one in the tube for a pump I don't know. It might be equal but anyone out there with a M1S90 want to get some input on this.


Basically with a non-fully loaded shotgun Pump vs M1S90 selecting a slug may be equal speed.
As for pump vs all other semi's the amount of work is the same.

At least I'm fair and objective aye?

Feanaro: You're right it would be hard both with both semi and pump :D. In fact if you don't train for that scenario you might be stuff out of luck if you have a semi or a pump. That can't be denied. But I have tried shooting one handed with my semi and I can get off all my rounds on target. Not the same speed as with two hands but with more ease than a pump.

[riverdog]

This discussion started as:there is no shotgun out there that was better built for "selecting a slug" in the middle of shooting than a M1 Super90. No mention of full magazines. In fact "in the middle of shooting' to me means the magazine isn't full. Load management is an issue in practical shooting and as Dave said earlier,critical factor was the shooter, not the tool he or she picks I'll stick with the Rem 870 thankyouverymuch; the MOA is simpler and that's a good thing in a combat weapon.

[Felinx]

No mention of full magazines. In fact "in the middle of shooting' to me means the magazine isn't full. Load management is an issue in practical shooting and as Dave said earlier,

Yup, so I addressed the non-fully loaded shotgun. I guess I shouldn't have said "there is no shotgun better made for selecting a slug" because it doesn't matter if the gun is not fully loaded. But... if it were the M1S90 is better. 1 tie, 1 win for the M1S90. (in terms of the select slug stuff)

the MOA is simpler and that's a good thing in a combat weapon.

Lot of these types of responses, could you elaborate on how and why you think the MOA is much simpler and compared to what? Hey look you could be right and I think it would help the new people learn more about what to look for. If you would just explain.

I'll stick with the Rem 870 thankyouverymuch;
I love it :D youaresoverywelcome

[Feanaro]

If you need a slug then the person you are shooting is probably a long way off. Because otherwise there is no point in using a slug. Thus the minimal time you save with a Super 90 isn't that useful. If it were at close/medium range it would matter. But a slug is of no use there.

And if you are shooting at long range with buck/bird in the gun then perhaps you didn't load it correctly?

It is an advantage. But an important one?

[Felinx]

Feanaro:
It is an advantage. But an important one?

:D Good! Good! Personally I think NO. Its not an imporant advantage. Home defense situation, you are in your house and unless you are Bill Gates the longest hallway may only be 20 yrds and i you are in a apartment maybe 10~15. You're right, why use a slug??? Its better to use 00Buck in that range ( Thats the way I feel at least. maybe I'm wrong). Thats why I believe no staggard stuff like you suggested earlier.

Oh, but one thing that just popped in my head though. What if (and this is really unfortunate) you have a hostage situation in your house. Might you select slug then? I actually don't know what I would do. In that situation I would be more comfortable with a handgun but if all I had was a shotgun I'd have to go slug.

Any disadvantages in using a semi-auto in home defense. I'll try to think of some and maybe post.

[Dave McCracken]

Sigh....

Back in the day, Felinx,I often shot side by side with buddies shooting A-5s, 11-48s, an 1100 or two. I found that a good pumpgunner with an 870, 12 or 37 could regularly get a second or third shot off faster than an auto owner.

Once again, a good shotgunner is a good shotgunner. The deciding factor is expertise.

Our young friend HS/LD took the mantra of BA/UU/R seriously. He reports something like 15K rounds in the last 6 months.

Corriea does 3 gun, wins, and uses a pump.

HSmith and PJR are high volume shooters.

Will Fennell is good enough he went to the FITASC World Cup competition and placed nicely. There's no tougher game than FITASC.

Even your kindly, grey haired old Moderator has been known to go through 1K of loads in a month or so.

And riverdog has the makings.

I'd wager the usual flagon of mead that give any of the above ANY good shotgun(Including Benellis, which I regard as darn good, just overpriced) and some ammo, a shooting lesson of high quality and value would be shortly forthcoming.

And while some of the above have shown scant interest in "Serious" shooting, I believe that if H, Will or Paul were using a pump for a rapid COF on tombstones, silohuettes or steel, the course would be cleaned in a very small increment of time.

The key to expertise is shooting. All a shotgun is is a device to direct a cloud or clouds of shot to a given place at a given time and to do so comfortably. ONLY shooting will make that happen and extensive shooting is the way to make it happen consistently.

Grab your Benelli and shoot it at clays, plates, landfill rats, or tin cans. Shoot it until it feels like a body part and you're deadly with it. Then go borrow a Big Four pump and shoot that. Note that you're still deadly.

There's a lesson there...

[Felinx]

Thanks for you post as always. I don't see why you sigh, I guess I'm comming off as "SEMI AUTOS RULE!!" type ignorant person. is that it? The topic came up, Best Shotgun for Home Defense and I wanted to see a lot of pro's and cons so I can learn from them, maybe other people too. I think there is a difference in putting down pros and cons as opposed to saying "my shotty is better or what not". If I come off in a bad way I'm sorry that is not my intention.

Our young friend HS/LD took the mantra of BA/UU/R seriously. He reports something like 15K rounds in the last 6 months. Corriea does 3 gun, wins, and uses a pump.

HSmith and PJR are high volume shooters.

Will Fennell is good enough he went to the FITASC World Cup competition and placed nicely. There's no tougher game than FITASC.

Maybe some comments from these people as to why they choose a pump vs a semi-auto or else it is just Argumentum ad verecundiam


Once again, a good shotgunner is a good shotgunner. The deciding factor is expertise.

Woudn't disagree with that.

I don't know if you have read all of the posts but I think I basically said that Speed and accuracy can be viewed as same in a HD situation between a semi and a pump. From your response it seems like I didn’t get that across. My word smithing ain't so good.

1) Accuracy would be the same

2) Speed, you probably don't need the high cyclic rate anyway.

3) Slug selection, probably don't need it in a HD situation. But it could happen.

4) Ackward positions: One hand disabled the semi has an advantage. Something obstructing you from using your off hand.

Reply to the opinions like Feanaro and riverdog not to what you think I am trying to say. You sound like you are giving a lesson to someone that says "semi-auto's are the way to go. Why, well just because they are fast". I'm not, I think I have been pretty objective.

I'm sure you would be faster with your semi. But I can never do as well with an auto as I can with a pump
I can't argue with that, thats when you know what you have works for you. I'm sure there alot of people that are faster than me with a pump.

There's a lesson there...
Yah, I stand alone.

[riverdog]

... to one of equipment on the Practical game courses rather than a discussion of HD shotguns. I know of few applications for slugs in HD. When I need a slug I'll select a rifle and do it right.

I'm sure the Benelli is a good gun, but I've seen too many auto's fail to extract due to light loads and I've yet to have a feed or extraction malfunction with an 870. The trick with making an 870 reliable is to rack it as hard as you can. Being gentle will induce a problem.

Maybe the M1 S90 has no problem switching between varying loads and still functioning, but I know that my 870 HD gun can switch from slugs to target loads to 3" field loads without me selecting anything. Put any 2 3/4" or 3" fodder in the magazine and the gun will function just fine because it isn't load sensitive at all and always functions the same. Since I never top off the magazine, putting a Sabot next in line is never an issue. .. ahh, but that really isn't an issue with HD is it.

For HD I use 2 3/4" 00 Buck as my primary load with more 00 Buck backing it up. For HD, I don't worry about which round is next or load management in general, they're all the same.

[Felinx]

Maybe the M1 S90 has no problem switching between varying loads and still functioning, but I know that my 870 HD gun can switch from slugs to target loads to 3" field loads without me slecting anything.

What do you mean by "without me selecting anything". You have to select a round. What else would you "select" on a shotgun.

Yes I agree lets stick to HD posts. I am guilty of bringing 3 giun competion up in one of my posts, but that is before I had to argue with myself about the need for speed in HD. But I'd still like to know what you meant. Thanks.

[dav]

I realize this is an H/D thread, but this is still relevant.

It has been mentioned that the shotgun you practice with is the one that works best. So, to me, anything about a shotgun that increases my desire to practice will increase the value (to me) of that shotgun.

And here I come down on the pump side. Autos tend to make me concentrate on rapid fire. Pump allows me to think about every step of what I am doing while practicing. Mount shotgun, point (aim?), fire... think about what just happened. Did the shot go where I wanted? Did I flinch? Am I still on target?

All good, rack (what a wonderful sound a pump makes!) and do again.

Again, strictly personal, but I have a blast doing this. An auto would definitely work as well, and be lots faster. But for me, this isn't about speed, its about enjoyment and practice.

[tobeat1]

I like semis. I like pumps. I just happen to like semis better. To me this is almost a revolver vs semi debate. I think a decent semi with a modicum of TLC will be just as reliable as a pump. You dont have to worry about pumping the blasted thing. With a pump you have to have two working arms to pump it effectively. With a semi one hand can be free to open doors, dial 911, carry a child or worst case you can still fight with only hand. Slug selection may not be important to you. "I will get a rifle and do it right"-- What if you dont have a rifle? At any rate I think we are all more or less on the same page- the shooter- not the tool will dictate the outcome. But semis are better :neener:

[Andrew Wyatt]

BTW Adrew, I just tried what the "semi-auto" users did in the 3 gun match with my pump. 10/10 it choked. I think it is user error more than gun problem

the advantage of the pump is you can pick when to eject the round.

when i tested the stage, I fired the gun, rotated it so the port pointed down, moved the slide to the rear, rotated the gun back up into firing position and moved the slide forward.


no lost rounds, and no stovepipes.


as for select slug from a full gun, that's something i'm probably never going to have to deal with, since my HD gun only has a five round buttcuff and is stored empty, and i'm reasonably proficient at doing a select slug just using the ejection port and bypassing the magazine.

if you want to get right down to it, a benelli nova would be the best thing to have if you were going to select slug a lot (it has the handy magazine cutoff button)

[Felinx]

the advantage of the pump is you can pick when to eject the round.

I like that point.

and i'm reasonably proficient at doing a select slug just using the ejection port and bypassing the magazine.

When I choose to select a slug I have to load it in the tube and then rack it so the one shell in the chamber gets ejected then the slug gets loaded on the carrier and then I slide it foward and Im ready to shoot.

Your way sounds interesting. How do you bypass the magazine and load a slug in the ejection port when you have 1 rnd in the chamber and 1 in the tube (magazine).

[Andrew Wyatt]

i hit the bolt release, open the slide about 3/4, which starts kicking out the round. i flick it out of the ejection port and toss the slug in the now vacated port.

i then move the slide all the way forward.

[Felinx]

Ok thanks.

[HS/LD]

You guys are forgetting the fridge!
Don't forget about the refrigerator!
I keep a few slugs handy in case the bad guy decides to tip over my refrigerator (like in the movies) and hide behind it.

Slugs will go straight through the fridge...

I have two Shotguns a semi Mossberg 5500 something or other (not the best semi auto SG I am sure, I bought it from a guy in a shoe store before I could legally buy guns in the USofA. $150 and he made me break it down and take it out of the shoe store in a brown paper bag) and a well used super duper Winchester Defender 1300 Special Edition.

Debating the difference in speed between pump gun and a semi is ridiculous when the scenario is Home Defense. For many reasons... the most important being that the cyclic rate of fire of a shotgun is not the feature of a shotgun that makes it valuable as a defensive arm. You want speed, you should be looking at something other than a shotgun, hint Heckler & Koch make them, and they are only about $12,000 more. Additionally the maximum speed of the pump is determined by the max speed of the operator whereas the max speed of a semi is mechanically limited. Also, you are either an idiot or ignorant if you perceive a "tactical" advantage with a SHOTGUN on having 5 empties in the air as opposed to 3 or 4.

Selecting a slug is easy with either a semi or a pump.... another debate that is much ado about nothing. In order to understand this one must shoot both a semi and a pump and try the drill. In either case the sequence is something like - fiddle - click - click bang. What is important is actually hitting the target with the oh so dearly needed slug. I can easily load a slug through the ejection port of my Defender while the tube is full. Methinks someone has not taken the time to play with a pump gun....

Selecting a slug for a head shot hostage situation in your house? Two options here. Watch the combat shotgun video by Louis Awerbuck or a quick trip to Colorado and you can see successful head shots taken with buck shot on moving hostage targets at home defense ranges.

In the last six months I have put over 15,000 shells through my Winchester Defender. ZERO mechanical failures 0/15,000. Additionally the PUMP is actually FASTER than is NEEDED to assist any crack addicts, that have infiltrated your cave, to meet God .

Throwing clay targets in the air, Tom Knapp with a semi, can hit 9. With a pump he can get 8. Seems to me he just needs to stop being so lazy and practice a little more with the pump gun.

Pump vs.Semi... 0.005 of a sec... and extra movement of the bolt...
Give me a break!

Regards,
HS/LD

[Felinx]

Sadly I don't have a fridge in my cave

[Dave McCracken]

The sigh, well, if you have to ask, I'm not sure you'd understand the answer.

Here's the point of all this. Software is much more important than the hardware. Training and tactics are what keep folks alive or not, much more so than RPM.

[sm]

I shot pumps for years, only reason I went to semi was recoil due to the high volume I shot in competition. I shot semi in 12 ga and Citori 3 bbl set for the little fellers.

HD or in my case add Office , I used pumps. I actually at one time could shuck as fast as most anything on the field, except a Rem 3200.

The model 12, 37, 1300, or 870 I used for defense of Home or Office, I didn't worry about gas systems, "O" rings, springs, anything.

Heck, there is an model 37 that is dunno how old. Kept in my dad's business and I don't think he ever fired it...I did. I patterened, I bought the loads, and I maintained it. Its been years since I've seen it, probably has the Winchester/Western 00 buck loads I stoked it with...I bought 5-6 25 rds bxs at the time.

Since that business is closed now, I guess its at his house, It will work, I'm sure. Even if its dry of lube, dusty, I still wouldn't hesitate to grab it and go.

I do know the 870 I bought for another business was also brought home when they retired. Stayed in a hall closet for about 8 years until one night the old boss used it to dispatch a critter( he lives out in the country)--dunno If I'd trust another platform to stay dormant and loaded, and work.

just me.

[igor]

a Saiga 12-K (http://club.guns.ru/eng/saiga12.htm) ? 8 rounds each in detachable magazines ... :cool: :p :scrutiny:

[Andrew Wyatt]

detachable magazines are fine and dandy, but without them, the gun doesn't work.

you can't do a very effective select slug with them.


you can't shoot one, load one, either.