[SkunkApe]

Alan Fud's thread here got me curious:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21676

With the "best" load from each each chambering, which round is the better man stopper, the .357 Magum or the .45 ACP?

Lets assume 4" barrels. Otherwise, ignore the gun itself, including factors such as ammunition capacity, trigger, etc.

[dude]

who knows???

.....I've never been hit with either, nor have I shot anybody with same

[Preacherman]

You'd also have to have the same victim, shot in exactly the same place, with each round, in order to determine which is best - and if you hit him in the right place with the first round, he wouldn't be alive to test the second...

Bear in mind that no matter what the gun, if the assailant is hopped-up on drugs or drink, or wound-up with adrenaline, his reactions may be such that even a good, stopping shot, guaranteed to be lethal as soon as it takes effect, may not stop him quickly enough to prevent him doing some serious damage.

Also, NO handgun round in a defensive caliber is a guaranteed stopper. Just check them out (velocity and energy levels) against any 12ga. load, or common centerfire rifle load. No comparison! It comes down to bullet placement, mentality and chemical composition of the assailant, and things like that.

[SkunkApe]

Preacherman, I know all that. Quit your preaching and just vote, darn it.

[WonderNine]

I think against someone wearing heavy clothing the .357 might be better while against someone with a T-shirt, the .45 might be better. (more efficient)

[sm]

Shot placement and luck

b/t the two choices I voted for 45ACP, only because I shoot a 1911 more than a wheelgun...

[ACP]

I'd choose a .357 Magnum from a 4" barrel. More energy. Smaller diameter round, but at full velocity, the hydrostatic shock must be (is) truly traumatizing. But which would I rather touch of several rounds of indoors in a SD scenario? .45 ACP.

[Neal Bloom]

I'll take the 357.

[TechBrute]

I'll take the .50BMG. Oh wait, wrong "which caliber is better" thread.:rolleyes:

[Andrew Wyatt]

how fast does a standard pressure .357 shoot a 230 grain projectile?


assuming said 230 grain projectile is a JHP, and does expand, and expands to a larger diameter than a .45ACP JHP, then that .357 round would be "better" than a 230 grain .45 JHP.


are there any uber heavy .357 bullets suitable for SD?

[bpisler]

I don't think one is better than the other with a good defensive load. However i picked the 357 cause it's what i carry.I carry the 150gr starfire because it's at lease 50% more accurate than the others i've tried.Andrew wyatt,I believe winchester makes a 180gr ranger talon? i think it's called that and it's in boxes marked "law enforcement only"

[Jim March]

I say the 357, but by only the SMALLEST of margins. And the new Cor-Bon Pow'R'Ball may tip the scales the other way due to it's "clogproof" characteristics and ballistics close to the 357 (165grainer doing over 1,200fps from a 5" 45).

[Jim March]

Andrew Wyatt: it's more complicated than that. Velocity equals expansion, to a large degree. Get a 158grain well-designed 357 projectile moving at around 1,250fps, and it's expansion may well be larger than most 230grain 45s doing 850-900, and better yet, the 357's expansion may well prove to be far more reliable.

When a JHP in a semi-auto fails to open, it's particularly bad because they have a "round nose profile" to aid feeding. Round-nose ammo is the poorest type for wounding, although in a 45 it's still respectable. With 357 fodder, you don't have to design the nose as a compromise for feeding, so you can maximize it for the expansion you want for a given velocity.

[braindead0]

Alliant has 200gr .357 loads at 1200fps.
180gr .357 at 1300+fps

I'd rather not get hit by either.. but a 180gr XTP moving at 1300fps would (I think) be pretty darned messy.

Or if you want more speed, a 125 moving at 1700fps (standard pressure load).

[Trisha]

When suspicious of body armor (improvised, or stolen) or narcotics, head shots at distances up to 15 yards (CQB tactics, hard cover optimal) then pelvis is targeted with three rounds to collapse goblin.

Either round is adequate, providing SCT rules of shooter's performance is met as a minimum standard (5 rounds/5 seconds/5 yards/5 inches). With either hand, I train SCT to 25 yards.

The 12ga. 3" slug load is preferrable. . .

[Nightcrawler]

From a pure kinetic energy standpoint, .357 wins hands down. .45ACP, espeically in the modern +P loadings (add about 100fps to standard pressure loads, I think) is pretty potent. .45 Super even more so (though .45 Super can't be fired out of anything but full sized guns, to avoid slide battering).

But, .357 can do more, energy wise. Especially if you handload. There's no reason you couldn't load 200 grain .357 bullets to teh same velocity as a 200 grain .45ACP +P load. (That'd be what, 1050fps?) But you could push the 200 grain bullet even faster in a .357, moreso than you could do in .45ACP or .45 Super (I think). Espeically if you have a very strong gun like a GP100.

So let's compare. .45 Super can do 230 grains at 1200 fps, abouts, out of a 5" barrel.

What can .357 do with 180 and 200 grain bullets? I believe 200 grains is the heaviest available .357 bullet out there, but don't quote me on that.

I have an answer to the quandry, of course. .41 Magnum! 210 grains at 1325 fps, anyone? :evil:

[RustyHammer]

Location, location, location .... :uhoh:

[Boats]

Since the vast majority of SD shootings occur at night, I'll take the .45 over some firebreather that will in all likelihood ruin my low light vision. Heck, in dimly lit conditions, I'll take a 9mm+p+ over the .357.

"Stoppers" are for bottles. Threats are shot until neutralized.

[Standing Wolf]

I have no doubt the .45 A.C.P. is an adequate self-defense cartridge; since there's a small chance my life might depend on cartridge selection, however, I pack the .357 magnum in a revolver: better accuracy, better reliability, and less weight to lug around.

[SkunkApe]

Suprisingly close. I guess the .357 ISN'T generally accepted as being superior to the .45 after all.

I would've guessed this poll would have gone about nine to one for the .357.

Hmmm...

[Ala Dan]

Greeting's All-

I think if a scientific study were done, you would find
that more combatant's have fallen to the .45 caliber
230 grain hardball than any other loading's? Seems
to have worked well for over 70 + year's!:) :uhoh:

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[dude]

well seeing as how the .357 mag has a very (very) small record in combat..............

[Mike Irwin]

"how fast does a standard pressure .357 shoot a 230 grain projectile?"

A better question is how fast the .357 Mag. will shoot a 200-gr. bullet...

The answer to that is about 1,000 fps, or about the same as the .45 ACP...


Quite frankly, I'll pick the .357 Mag., but that's just personal preference because it comes wrapped in a Smith & Wesson Model 19.

Other than that, any differences between the cartridges is more the talk of drunken people at bars than any true demonstratable superiority one compared to the other.

[Tamara]

Where's the button to click for "To-may-to, to-mah-to"?

[Nightcrawler]

The answer to that is about 1,000 fps, or about the same as the .45 ACP...

Heck, Mike, you could probably get another 100-200 fps out of it, assuming a strong revolver (GP100, M28, Blackhawk). Strict .45 Super territory, there.

I'd love to hear what WESHOOT2 has to say. :evil:

[Jim March]

15 years ago it would have been the 357 hands down. Even 10, or 5, it wouldn't be as close.

It's projectile technology that's narrowed the gap; the Gold Dot is just superb, the Pow'R'Ball is almost enough to tip my opinion over.

And with hollowpoints more common and more trusted, more of the 45ACP guns coming out are designed for JHPs right off the bat, so overall reliability is up. NOT to revolver levels yet, but certainly better than the days when most serious shooters carried hardball because they knew it'll feed.

[Dr.Rob]

I like both, but in my experience (having seen both used to dispatch wounded game) I'd say the 357 hits harder.

Until recently I never owned a 357 of my own, I'd feel safe using it for defense, provided I can get better at using speedloaders.

[WESHOOT2]

"Caliber of shooter"

Both great, but if limited (yeah right) to ONLY ONE GUN it would be a 357 Magnum revolver.
With a fast-stepping 125g JHP.

My personal OH-$HIT choice (9/12) was a 230g GS in my Caspian.

I don't see much difference when comparing the best choices in these two calibers........

My always is a 22LR.

[Double Naught Spy]

The criteria invalidate the query. Assuming a 4" barrel means handicapping the .45 acp round. The round was designed to be brought up to speed in a 5" barrel, not 4, not 6, but 5. Most manufacturers load powder amounts and burn speeds accordingly.

9 mm, on the other hand, was actually designed for a 4" barrel. As such, a lot of 9 mm guns can be made smaller and don't appear to suffer a loss of velocity in guns with 4" barrels because that is the actual design.

I have no idea what length barrel was used with the .357.

I didn't vote. It matters not what people think is the better stopping round. All that matters are the results in real life applications.

.357 more accurate than .45? I am not sure that matters. What is 0.5" at 25 yards better accuracy going to matter in most shootings that occur in 0-7 yards? At 7 yards, the better accuracy translates to 0.14", inconsequential.

[SkunkApe]

OK, DoubleNaught, you can vote based on the 5" barrel for the .45 if you want.

I thought the 4" barrel for the .45 is more common than a 5" barrel for the .357, so I chose 4" for the standard.

Nitpick, nitpick. Its supposed to a be a general question, durn it.

I can do readin', writin', and some cipherin'.

[Baron Holbach]

Per shot, the. 357 magnum, 158 grain hollowpoint is the number one man stopper. However, you will only be equipped with six shots when carrying any standard revolver. With the .45ACP, you could have as many as ten shots when carrying a semi-atuo pistol; perhaps more, if your magazine is a pre-ban. 185 or 200 grain .45ACP hollowpoints might bring better results than the standard 230 grain hollowpoints.

[duncan]

What police departments are carrying 357 mag revolvers anymore?

Sorry but the world is now 9mm, 40SW, 357 sig, 10mm, and 45 ACP.

357 mag is a better close in deer hunting round than 45 ACP.

With its recoil and limited number of semi auto's chambered in 357 mag, the question is moot.

Ballistically 357 mag is the better hitter but 45 ACP carries and shoots easier for recruits and occassional shooters.

[Nightcrawler]

Duncan, who cares what police departments are using?

The question certainly isn't moot to the millions of people that carry .357s to protect themselves, either.

If you were going to base your choices based on what police departments use, then you'd assume that 9x19mm is the better stopper. After all, many police departments dumped .357 revolvers for 9mm autoloaders.

Guess most of them just couldn't spray ammo fast enough with a revolver. :rolleyes:

[Mike Irwin]

Duncan,

Most police departments actually dumped the revolver for several reasons, but few of them were really related to actual need.

Most of it was related to perception -- the perception that police all over the nation were outgunned, that the streets were littered with the rotting corpses of cops who were killed by bad guys with automatics after the cop had shot his puny 6-shooter dry, and that in order to be a "real" cop you had to have a semi-auto on your belt.

Raw power or stopping ability had little to do with it, but media hyped fears, and the positioning of companies like Glock, had a lot to do with it.

[Gerald McDonald]

There is a state trooper in my area who still carrys a 4" S&W 27. He doesnt look to be worried about his choice.

[Admiral Thrawn]

Speaking of police, our police are about 10 years behind those of the USA:

Nationwide, our police have just begun the transition from .38 Special and .357 Magnum revolvers to Glock 17 wondernines.

Considering most of our police are crap shots, they need the extra rounds and reduced flash/bang to be able to spray and pray more effectively. :rolleyes:

[kalibear45]

If all else fails, its time to grab that S&W model 500 revolver :D

[riverdog]

A virtual dead-heat and I came to this thread thinking I'd find the answer to a question that's been on my mind for years :rolleyes:

These are my two favorite calibers in handguns. Why seems fairly obvious; I like apples and oranges.

[Double Naught Spy]

SkunkApe, while it may be more common to find 4" 1911 .45 acp barrels than .357 5" barrels, the issue really isn't about barrel length. The way to make more valid comparisons is to have each shoot from the proper length barrels for which they were designed. The .357 mag apparently was made for a 4" barrel from what I find elsewhere on the net.

By comparing data from proper length barrels, only then can you evaluate the full potential for each cartridge. This is going to represent the ideal.

From there, comparisions could be made as to which is better out of a given barrel length.

This all comes into play when considering calibers and real life performance for stopping bad guys. What such studies don't seem to take into consideration beyond the caliber is barrel length. Some of the failures to stop for a given caliber may be partially blamed on firing the round out of a gun that has a barrel shorter than for what the cartridge needs to reach full potential velocity.

So, the .357 mag is supposed to be a little bit better of a stop cartridge over the .45. You have to wonder, if this miniscule and statistically indistinguishable stop rates in these calibers where the .45 got nosed out, just how many of the .45 failures to stop were from short barrels such as from commander or officer-sized guns.

[riverdog]

IIRC the .357 Mag was designed with longer barrel lengths in mind. I get about 1800 FPS using 158gr JSP ammo in my Marlin carbine. 4" is a good minimum length barrel, 6' is better, 8 3/8" better yet although a bit unwieldy.

OTOH, IMO the .45ACP works relatively well from short 3'-5" barrels.

[Jim March]

Yes, the 357 was developed for the 6" but since at least the 1950s, 4" has been more common and with the exception of a few hunting loads, they make sure all JHPs perform well out of a 4" tube.

As to the 45ACP, see also my comments here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22013

[tiberius]

I picked .45 ACP which tied the score at 37 each :)

These are my two favorite general purpose calibers, and I believe that they each represent the best defensive cartridges in their respective action types.

I chose .45 ACP because I can personally hit better and faster with my Colt Goverment Model and Officer's Model than I can with any of my .357's. The revolvers are more accurate in slow fire, however.

[riverdog]

Jim,
.357 mag works with short 4" barrels or eben shorter. The result is lots of muzzle flash (which is potential increased velocity) going downrange. IMO, .357 Mag almost always benefits from a longer barrel.