[krept]

I have a question regarding the bullet choice of the Israeli Defense Forces.

Normally things such as bullet choice, platform choice, etc. are debated down to apparently trivial nuances. I was recently having a discussion about the IDF and how they are very often involved in violent incidents due to their hostile borders... not to mention the fact that they might be confronted by a suicide bomber (a situation where you would want a stop ASAP).

When looking at their choice of caliber (9mm) I was interested in their bullet choice because in a debate I was having, the other person said "I bet they use hollowpoints."

This would make sense in light of thier superior stopping power.

It appears, however, that the IDF procures the majority of their cartridges from IMI and on IMI's site for 'military ammo', there are several types of FMJs, one frangible round, but no hollowpoints.

I'm not sure of the applicability of the Geneva Convention to their situation. I know for black ops, I have heard some of our SF teams have been given hollowpoints (usually counter-terrorsim and thus separate from war). But the analogy I would make to the IDF is like our military police that protect the bases.

Technically, they might be able to carry hollowpoints, but I'm pretty sure they just carry ball because of logistical reasons. Thus... it would appear to me that the IDF carries ball as well... and in 9mm.

Can anyone confirm or deny this? If this is correct, it is pretty interesting to me. Might be a moot point (one of them hits the boiler or the CPU = lights out) but I still find a 9mm FMJ to be an interesting choice for a group that might have to end a suicide bomber's threat *immediately* or even threats from other wackos firing Quassams, AKs, grenades, etc.

Thanks.

[dude]

9mm, .41 AE and lots of .30 Carbine

[Leibster]

I used to live in Israel, and I served in the IDF Golani Brigade.

I can tell you that approximately 10% of the population carries--I'd imagine mostly hollopoints, and those in 9mm--and the public is frequently asked (by the police and government) to be vigilant & involved in helping prevent suicide bombings and other terror acts. For these civilians, a handgun is their primary weapon.

For those in the military, any handgun is always a secondary weapon. It's true that the Geneva convention doesn't allow armed forces to use hollowpoints, but in Israel we overcome this very simply; First, if at all possible, handguns are not employed in any miltary operation. Second, if they must be used, special attention is paid to shot placement, and finally, in general, there will be a whole team instead of a lone person firing at the target(s), putting lots of lead into the enemy from multiple directions simultaneously. Clearly, under these circumstances, any stopping power shortcomings are easily overcome.

On another note, civilians and police use 9mm Hollowpoints are very satisfied with them overall; there is not a perceived problem with their performance in combat.

Hope that helps,

--Leibster

p.s.

dude,

The miltary doesn't use .41AE, nor do almost any civilians. It's an extremely rare cartridge in Israel despite being invented there. The .30 carbine is issued (in the form of M1 carbines) to civilian volunteers to the "Civil Guard", basically an institutionalized neighborhood watch program, but with teet!

[braindead0]

but with teet!

Only one, they usual come in pairs :evil:

[Leibster]

:D err, make that "teeth", with an "H" LOL

Believe you me, if there were more teets, volunteerism would be at all time highs!

[dude]

try finding it here!

[Leibster]

Good point!

I don't know much about it ballistically, but I'm guessing it was an early attempt at filling the niche that .40S&W currently occupies. It was either ahead of it's time, poorly implemented, badly marketed, or a combination of the three.

--Leibster

[krept]

good info and those comments sound spot on.

THANKS

[9mmepiphany]

leibster - the .41AE was ahead of it's time and then buried by the 10mm/.40 craze

it's big claim to fame was the use of a rebated rim to allow conversion of a 9mm to .41ae by just switching the barrel, spring and mag...no slide change. much like folks trying to convert .45 to 10mm or 9mm to .40 without beefing up the slide, at least a little, wear becomes a problem.

[George Hill]

The .41AE was a great cartridge. However here in the US, it was only available in the Jericho 941. Since no one here knew what the .41 was, everyone just considered the 941 to be a 9MM.

I fired a box of .41AE and thought it to be a nice potent and accurate cartridge. But at the end of the day, way back then, I still didn't know what it was. Poor marketing indeed. It had hardly ANY marketing. I remember ads for the Jericho, and they only mentioned the .41AE in passing and never said anything about it... just that you could shoot it in the Jericho pistol.

M1 Carbine... I'd take one any day. I am eagerly awaiting the US Civilian version of the TAVOR rifle and the new HEZI SM-1... which is a bullpup M1 Carbine.

[Leibster]

If there's one thing Israelis can't do worth a damn, it's marketing! That fact alone likely explains the untimely demise of the .41AE.

--Leibster

[Leibster]

You might be in luck with the Tavor. Rumor has it that they may be manufactured in the States, so Israel could use US Foreign Military Support money (which must be spent on American products, in an effort to stimulate the US defense industry). If that turns out to be true, a civilian, US made Tavor seems quite likely.

The Tavor seems like a decent rifle. I haven't heard anything about the Hezi. I saw their booth at the SHOT Show, but didn't have time to visit.

--Leibster