[possum]

i was up at Dick's sporting goods yesterday and bought some ultramax 180gr cnl rds to shoot in my xd. I was happy to relise that they give a 20 percent military discount which i never knew before.

#1)so I was wondering how many rds should i fire before the lead fouling will be dangerous to keep shooting with? I normally shoot 200rds or more per range trip but use primarially fmj's and i have , only a small experience with lead rds.

#2) so do i need to take cleanning supplies with me to the range? and clean after a 100rds or so or will it be ok to shoot 200rds plus with out cleanning the barrel? I just don't want the lead to foul up and blow my gun up.

#3)speaking of fouling up those of you that have shot ultramax, does it foul anymore than other types of lead ammo?

thanks i appreciate the replies i know i will get, thanks again!

[Dr. Dickie]

Shoot as much as you like, the lead fouling will not be cumulative (to any great extent). I regularly shoot 200+ lead rounds and see little difference between 300 rounds or 30 rounds. The harder the lead, the less the fouling.
Of course, clean the gun after shooting, you likely WILL see some lead fouling in the barrel. Shooters choice lead remover along with a brass ChoreBoy pad un-raveled and some of it wrapped around a brush (toranado) really cuts the lead out of the barrel for me.

[possum]

Dr. Dickie,
Thank you for the reply, and you confirmed my thoughts on the sittuation, thanks, and thank you for the great advice on the cleanning products and accessories, and method. that is one thing about guns you never stop learning!:)

[.38 Special]

There's also the old trick of occasionally sending a few jacketed bullets downrange to scrape out the lead.

[possum]

.38 special,
welcome to THR i haven't seen you here before, welcome it is always good to see new folks on the site! with every new member there is possibly years of experience, and knowledge, glad to have you along!

yes that is very true and in the 150-200rds of lead i have had experience with, i fired a mag of fmj's right after the lead , before putting the gun away and the majority of the fouling went out of the barrel. I think i will take my normal alotment of ammo to the range now of the lead variety, and a magazine or two of fmj's to finish out the range session! great advise and thank you!

[Majic]

The harder the lead, the less the fouling.
Not always true.
There's also the old trick of occasionally sending a few jacketed bullets downrange to scrape out the lead.
That old trick is a sure way to iron the lead in the bore making cleaning more difficult.

[.38 Special]

Thanks for the welcome, Possum.

That old trick is a sure way to iron the lead in the bore making cleaning more difficult.
I've been told that before, but have never personally experienced it. I find that, on guns which lead foul badly, it is easier to remove a touch of lead left in the bore after "cleaning" with a few FMJs than it is to remove lumps and streaks of even soft, relatively pure lead.

I'd be interested in hearing any evidence - scientific or otherwise - concerning the "ironing lead into the bore" topic.

[JohnKSa]

There's also the old trick of occasionally sending a few jacketed bullets downrange to scrape out the lead.Beretta specifically and emphatically recommends against this practice in their autopistols.

One of the few 9mm Glock blowups I've heard of was reported by the owner to be the result of firing a single jacketed round through the gun after shooting a box of lead (unjacketed) ammo.

[.38 Special]

Interesting. I'd love to see some documentation. (Not that I disbelieve you. I'd just like to get details. Internet, you know...;) )

< edit > I went to Beretta's site and couldn't find any warnings about the practice. Do you know of a link?

[Jerry Morris]

There is a speciific cleaning tool made for this purpose. The Lewis Lead Remover. It consist of a modified cleaning rod that pulls a brass screen through the bore and it will drag nearly all the lead out, with no harm.

Here is a link for the Remover.
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/productdetail.aspx?p=21587

Myself, I will clean with Ed's Red, using brass brush and patches until most all of the fouling is out. I never use steel brushes. If it is stubborn, I will set the barrel aside with a bore wetted with Kroil. Overnight, Kroil will get under the fouling and be easier to brush out.

Jerry

[JohnKSa]

I went to Beretta's site and couldn't find any warnings about the practice. Do you know of a link?You gotta be kidding me...

Go to the Beretta (www.berettausa.com) site.

Under the "Customer Support" menu, click on "Manual Request"

Look for this quote in the first paragraph. "Owner's manuals for selected Beretta firearms are available on our Beretta International website."

Click on "Beretta International" in that sentence on the website. When the site comes up click on "I accept"

Now select a centerfire Beretta Autopistol manual. I haven't checked each and every manual, but I know the warning is in the following manuals:92, PX4, 9000, Cougar, and the 90-Two.

Now look under the "Ammunition" section of the manual.

[.38 Special]

Ah, good. Sarcasm. Just what I was hoping for.

< edit > Thank you for removing most of the sarcastic bits, and thank you for the link. Perhaps you might keep in mind that folks looking to expand their knowledge tend to respond better to honey than vinegar.

[JohnKSa]

It wasn't the best approach, I agree--but I do get frustrated when it appears that "my internet" works much better than everyone else's...

[Master Blaster]

I had a 92 fs and I loaded and fired hardcast lead out of it, even thought the manual said no lead ammunition specifically. I reload for all my guns and shoot a ton of hard cast lead a year. My 92 FS was the only gun I owned that would keyhole lead bullets after 30 or so rounds. They would hit the target sideways at 15 yards. The lead bullets left shreads of lead in the barrel.

I no longer own the 92 FS, sold it last year. Use the choreboy method and get some Mpro 7 gun cleaner. Its also sold as Hoppes elite gun cleaner, excellent stuff and no harsh chemicals or smell.

[.38 Special]

It wasn't the best approach, I agree--but I do get frustrated when it appears that "my internet" works much better than everyone else's...
I looked. I didn't see it. Sorry. And now, rather than simply being grateful to have learned something new, I'm bummed out at having been treated rudely by yet another stranger on the internet.

But whatever. I'm not foolish enough to think that pointing out bad manners on the web actually accomplishes anything, I guess.

[JohnKSa]

...I'm bummed out at having been treated rudely by yet another stranger on the internet.Well, for every rude person on the web, like me, there are lots of polite and helpful people out there. You just have to learn how not to let the sphincters get to you. ;)

[HammerBite]

Back in the days when I was shooting 2700 bullseye matches I put over 100,000 rounds of lead ammo through each of my Gold Cup and my S&W 52 without a hint of any trouble. Today, everywhere I look, people are complaining about leading. Are the bores of today's guns less finely finished or did I get away with it because I was shooting mid-range loads, or what?

[dragongoddess]

very good question. Also what about those guns used way back when. It also would seem that all the leading could do is fill the rifleing channels flush with the barrel

[SoCalShooter]

I have also heard that lead rounds actually polish the barrel, in fact lead extends the barrel life rather than using jacketed loads.

[shooter503]

A properly lubed mid-range load should not cause leading problems. Perhaps the makers are loading too hot these days. Once upon a time, probably still but I am out of touch with target shooting, lead wadcutters were the only way to go. Don't work in autos, of course.

With reasonable loads the lead is easy to remove. It often comes out of the barrel in a sort of flake. If you use too hot a load or the lube is poor a small amount of the lead melts off the base of the bullet as it is fired - then you get a fine lead build up.

A hot load is actually detrimental to lead bullet accuracy but if you are shooting an auto the bullet energy is required to cycle the action so your load options may be limited.

[SoCalShooter]

Shooter503: lead semi-wad cutters work just fine, however I have not tried a regular wad-cutter bullet but the SWC seem to cycle just fine in my autos.

[earplug]

Some firearm lubes and cleaners down't work well when mixed.
I used to use Hoppe's to dissolve fouling and I used CLP as a lube. Found out that they didn't work well together. CLP seeps under fouling and allows one to wipe the lead out. CLP is a much better lubricant and it has been good for my lead revolver loads. Run A patch soaked down the barrel before leaving the range. This allows the stuff time to work.
If you think about it, some products dissolve fouling and some are cleaning agents that allow easy removal and work as lubes. I don't like to mix the two.

[shooter503]

SoCal.
SWC rounds sometimes have a feed problem in certain autos, it just depends on the magazine/feed ramp geometry. It sounds as though you are in luck.

However, the round needs to provide enough energy to cycle the action too. It sounds as though you are OK here also.

The final factor is what type of powder loading the maker used in order to give the round enough energy to cycle the action. If you think about it, the energy from a regular jacketed round in an auto can be quite high. The pistol is designed to function with that amount of energy. In an attempt to match the jacketed bullet energy with a lead bullet the maker could actually be pushing the lead bullet near to its "leading" limit.

Just an idea but I think it is possible. You could try another shape and weight of bullet. Something a little heavier but lower velocity to keep the energy constant.

[rudolf]

The problem with shooting jacketed bullets after lead is that the lead residue inhibits the bullet movement and thus leads to higher pressures.
For the same reason you don't shoot rifles with oil in the barrel.
The Glock .40 kabooms after shooting lead result from lead buildup in the front of the chamber. This leads to the cartridge not being fully cambered, or the bullet being pressed into the cartridge. In both cases, this, the unsupported Clock chamber and the already high .40 pressure add up to a kaboom.

[cassandrasdaddy]

WARNING: The extended use of +P or +P+ ammunition may
decrease component part service life expectancy. DO NOT use
sub-machine gun ammunition because the chamber pressure
may reach or exceed proof load pressure. Lead bullets have a
tendency to cause bore leading, which may dramatically increase
the discharge pressure. Be sure to remove all chamber and bore
lead accumulation after each use. DO NOT shoot cartridges with
jacketed bullets through a barrel previously fired with lead bullets
before the bore is thoroughly deleaded.
DRY FIRING/”DUMMY” ROUNDS

from barretta manual


http://www.berettaservices.com/Moduli/ContentManager/publicfiles/PDF%20Manuali%20In%20Catalogo/90%20two_eng.pdf

[SoCalShooter]

Shooter503 you are completely correct, I had some SWC 200 grainers that were jammin and I did not have the bullet seated far enough in the casing turns out my bullet seating die on my press was set to high.

Here are my SWC specs for .45acp target

Redline 200gr SWC
4.5gr of Bullseye
mixed brass
winchester large pistol primers

They are only target loads, I am trying to reduce the recoil and they are great match rounds.

[shooter503]

Good on the recoil. I am sure you have this covered but you will need an effective crimp on your ammo to prevent the bullets being shoved back into the case under recoil or feeding. Potential Kaboom.

Never tried this with 45 ammo but copper gas checks work well on 38. Keep the leading down too. Just a real pain to fit. Gas checks not so useful on target loads.

[Sunray]

Leading in any firearm is caused by excessive velocity not the hardness of the bullet.

[danang]

After only about 60,000 rounds of cast lead bullets...beginning back in 1956 or so, I really don't believe some of the posts I find. However, the Cast Bullet Association has made some concrete suggestions. 1. Cast bullet bores need to have all, repeat all, copper/gilding metal removed. The gilding metal fouling strips lead from the bullet and compounds the felony, as it were. 2. Tailor the lead hardness to the bullet speed. Pure lead at 4 or 5 BHN is fine for muzzle loaders. Bullseye pistol, probably 10 to 13 is fine. Hivel pistol to 1600 fps, use linotype or wheelweights hardened to 19 to 20 BHN. Rifle to full speed...i.e. 2900 fps, you gotta harden to 28 to 30 BHN with heat treatment. Now, with resolvers and pistols, you are dealing with another animal...gotta match the bore diameters to the bullet. Throats on the revolvers gotta match the bore diameters. If you wish to learn more, join the Cast Bullet Association, get their magazine, and, if possible buy their back issues. They are shooting almost one hole groups with lead. Basically...hardness ain't everything, nomatter what she told you. Size matters...to the thousandth. So...clean the bore before you shoot lead. Surgically clean. Match the size of the bullet to the bore. Use the lubricant that works best (many arguments on that...soft to hard, alox or not) and don't use an alloy too hard for the speed. Of course the quality of the barrel matters also. So many variables. So few bullets. Keep trying. Cast bullets will work in any firearm. Just gotta determine what parameters you need to emphasize.. JMHO
t

[shooter503]

Target shooters were performing almost unbelievable feats of accuracy with Schuetzen type rifles, lead bullets, black powder and non-telescopic sights in - the 1920's. They had learned what Danang referred to, perfectly lapped barrels, good bullet lubricant, perfect bullet sizing and the correct lead. We sort of lost all of these tricks when we went to jacketed bullets and we have had to relearn these secrets again. There are still techniques that were used by the Schuetzen shooters that we do not understand because the individuals kept their personal winning techniques secret.

Successfully loading a lead bulleted cartridge for true target work is a far more complicated act than loading a jacketed round. In fact, the early shooters did not even load a cartridge. They pushed the bullet into the chamber and then put a case loaded with powder behind it. The bullet was never secured in the case. Wouldn't work too well with an auto, of course.

[M2 Carbine]

I've loaded and shot untold numbers of lead bullets in everything from 32ACP to 30-06 since 1962.
I have also made it a practice of "shooting the lead out" with a few jacketed bullets.
Never had the first sign of a problem.
But properly hardened, lubed and loaded lead bullets will lead a barrel very little in the first place.

One reason I won't own a Glock is the probition against shooting lead bullets.

[g56]

There's also the old trick of occasionally sending a few jacketed bullets downrange to scrape out the lead.
Never fails to amaze me that people keep repeating that old wives tale, don't shoot jacketed bullets after lead, period. The barrel needs to be cleaned of any lead residue before shooting jacketed bullets, shooting jacketed bullets in a badly leaded barrel can lead to excessive pressures, and just makes it that much harder to clean the barrel properly later.

To remove lead residue from a barrel, get a COPPER Chore Boy, cut a patch and wrap it around a bore brush, and clean with a good solvent, this is the best method to remove leading from a barrel that exists today. I'd used the Lewis Lead Remover for years before I found out about the Copper Chore Boy method, it beats the Lewis Lead Remover hands down!

[M2 Carbine]

g56
Senior Member



Join Date: 01-17-04
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 663 Quote:
There's also the old trick of occasionally sending a few jacketed bullets downrange to scrape out the lead.

Never fails to amaze me that people keep repeating that old wives tale, don't shoot jacketed bullets after lead, period. The barrel needs to be cleaned of any lead residue before shooting jacketed bullets, shooting jacketed bullets in a badly leaded barrel can lead to excessive pressures, and just makes it that much harder to clean the barrel properly later.

To remove lead residue from a barrel, get a COPPER Chore Boy, cut a patch and wrap it around a bore brush, and clean with a good solvent, this is the best method to remove leading from a barrel that exists today. I'd used the Lewis Lead Remover for years before I found out about the Copper Chore Boy method, it beats the Lewis Lead Remover hands down!
__________________


This is the qualifier.
"a badly leaded barrel can lead to excessive pressures"

Shooting ANY bullets in a BADLY leaded barrel is creating excessive pressure and probably terrible accuracy.
If the lead bullets that you are shooting, in a particulat gun, are leading the barrel EXCESSIVELY then you shouldn't be shooting them in the first place.

[.38 Special]

Never fails to amaze me that people keep repeating that old wives tale, don't shoot jacketed bullets after lead, period. The barrel needs to be cleaned of any lead residue before shooting jacketed bullets, shooting jacketed bullets in a badly leaded barrel can lead to excessive pressures, and just makes it that much harder to clean the barrel properly later.
Seems to me that "Never shoot jacketed bullets after lead" is as at least as much of an "old wive's tale", especially considering how many folks actually do it with fine success.

I guess I'm asking for proof of blown-up guns, and/or proof of lead being "ironed" into the barrel.

I can't believe such an innocent subject is cause of such ardent disagreement.

[JohnKSa]

...considering how many folks actually do it with fine success.Yup, I've done it myself in the deep, dark distant past before I knew it wasn't a good idea. As with any caution, it's not to be confused with a promise that a single iteration will automatically and instantly result in a catastrophic incident. I've seen lots of smokers live to old age without getting cancer but that doesn't mean that lung cancer from smoking is an old wives' tale.

I've looked for the Glock 19 blowup post, but it's been a long time since I saw it--I don't even remember what forum it was posted on anymore.

If you want proof and Beretta's warning is insufficient then you're probably going to be disappointed. That's because the main source of information about gun blowups is the people who blow up guns. Unfortunately, people rarely tell the whole truth about the circumstances surrounding the situation. As I like to say, it's common for such incidents to leave a person uninjured but with a severe case of "ammunition amnesia". ;)