[makarovnik]

I think it's a real bummer that Phoenix Arms doesn't make the Raven anymore. I've owned both the HP22 and the Raven and I think the Raven is superior in every way except magazine capacity. I'd like to see if there are anymore Raven fans out there. Considering stopping power, accuracy, reliablity, sexiness and price, which do you prefer, the Keltec P32 or the Raven .25acp? Flame on!
http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/7079/pix4051244468vv8.th.jpg

[Clean97GTI]

is this a joke?

and even if we aren't looking at quality, why would you take .25 over .32?

[pocketgun]

:rolleyes:

[Hypnogator]

I'd like to see if there are anymore Raven fans out there.

Frankly, I'm surprised theres even one Raven fan out there! :what: :eek: :neener: :neener: :neener:

As far as I'm concerned, the Kel-Tec P-32 obsoleted every mini-.22 and .25 ever made.

[alamo]

As far as I'm concerned, the Kel-Tec P-32 obsoleted every mini-.22 and .25 ever made.


It certainly obsoleted the Beratta 21 .25 caliber pistol that I used to carry some years ago until the P-32 came out. It was very thick and I was never very comfortable with the .25 round but there wasn't much to choose from in true pocket pistols back then unless you were lucky enough to get a Seecamp.

[pocketgun]

As far as I'm concerned, the Kel-Tec P-32 obsoleted every mini-.22 and .25 ever made.

I would have to agree. What the .25ACP needs these days is a tiny, ultra thin/lite pistol to give people a reason to carry it again - something that makes the P-32 look big. Say about the size of one of those Motorola Razor cell phones - perfect around a neck on a lanyard or in a shirt pocket. Someone could design a holster for it that looks like a pack of cigarettes. :D

[makarovnik]

Pretty weak argument for the Keltec. Show me how much more powerful the .32acp is over the anemic .25acp. They're both pitiful. Also, can you hit an 8 1/2" x 11" sheet of paper with a P-32 beyond 20', I can with my Raven. It's also a lot smaller than the Keltec. One complaint I hear about Keltec is you can't hit the broad side of a barn with it. I've shot the P-11 and it was so inaccurate I could have hit the bullseye more accuratley by throwing the gun at the target. Come on boys (and girls) let's hear it!

[Dollar An Hour]

Also, can you hit an 8 1/2" x 11" sheet of paper with a P-32 beyond 20', I can with my Raven

:scrutiny:

I can hit a 3"x5" note card more often than not - at 10 YARDS with my P-32. ;)

[pocketgun]

I've shot the P-11 and it was so inaccurate I could have hit the bullseye more accuratley by throwing the gun at the target. Come on boys (and girls) let's hear it!

You lack skills if you are that bad with a P-11!

Look, I like the .25 as much as anyone, but when you get down that small every little bit may make a difference. .32 is that little bit. Besides, for the (essentially) same size gun, you can get a .380, and JHP ammo with some reliable expansion. The long 5 lb trigger on a P-32/P-3AT is the only safety, no little lever to brush off in a pocket. Too many people have had that happen with the Raven. A lighter, thinner gun with a better cartridge.

[Clean97GTI]

hey folks, lets not feed the troll.

[albanian]

Hey, I had a Raven that was just like the one in your pic, pink pearl grips and nickel finish and all!

My Raven never jammed. It was reliable and accurate enough to hit with. I think Ravens get lumped in with the Jennings and Brycos when they don't deserve it. They are still cheap guns but they are better than Jennings. I know a few people that have had Ravens and none of them ever had one jam. Can't say the same for my Kel-Tec P-32.

I would prefer a .32 over a .25 any day but not in a Kel-Tec. I would really pick my Raven over my P-32 if I had to defend myself with one of them. I can at least expect the Raven to go bang. A working P-32 over a working Raven is a different story. If I knew the P-32 was going to work, I would pick that. Since I have had bad luck with Kel-Tec, I would pick the Raven. I think quality is about the same but the P-32 looks like it made better.

[alamo]

The P-11 and P-32/P-3AT have very different triggers. The P-32/P-3AT is much easier to shoot. The P-11 trigger is more like a DA revolver. Not bad if you're used to them. Give me a P-32 over a .25 Raven any day. I'm afraid you'll find few Raven enthusiasts much less anyone who prefers it to a P-32 other than albanian.

[MachIVshooter]

is this a joke?

My thoughts exactly.

Caliber aside, the P32 is made with state-of-the-art materials and employs features found on larger autos. This, coupled with it's incredibly light weight, make it a truly remarkable little unit. Same goes for the P3.

The Raven, on the other hand, is made of cheap alloys and used the most inexpensive manufacturing techniques available. It was chambered in .25 because that was all it could handle. Oh yeah, it weighs nearly twice what the P32 does and has the ergonomics of a can opener. The Raven is a junk gun, plain and simple. I wouldn't have one in my collection if it were free (and I have had the offer, but didn't need a paperweight at the time).

[hso]

.25 - 50gr bullet at just over 800fps

.32 - 60gr bullet at just over 1000fps.

The .32 is tossing a 20% heavier bullet at better than a 20% increase in velocity. That provides a momentum increase of 44% over the .25 and about a 73% increase in energy over the anemic .25.

I've got a P3AT and I've fired it's .32 sibling. I was consistantly able to manage groups under 3 inches with either at 20 feet and have no problem doing it with my P3AT.

I hope the facts on the ballistics settles your mind on the question.

[makarovnik]

Now this is more like it! Now we're having some fun. I just wanted to see if you guys had some personality and I can see you do. Honestly, I do think the KelTec is a better pistol. I was just having some fun with you. A couple of points I did want to make are these:

I bought my Raven for $60 brand new and I'm suprised how accurate it is. It has never jammed with over 500 rounds through it. It's way better than the Phoenix Arms HP22 they currently make.

It's probably the smallest auto out there. It might be as heavy as the KelTec but it's definately smaller.

You lack skills if you are that bad with a P-11!
I'm not a bad shot, I just have a good arm. I used to play college baseball. I've seen a lot of people who are good shots, miss with the P-11. It's just not a very accurate gun. I think the P32 is better.

As far as power, stepping up from a .25acp to a .32acp is a baby step. They are both very weak. I would feel just as well armed with a .22LR.

The Raven, on the other hand, is made of cheap alloys and used the most inexpensive manufacturing techniques available. It was chambered in .25 because that was all it could handle.
True. You don't need steel and titanium to handle the .25acp. But then again, you don't need them to handle the .32acp either. I've noticed lots of companies are starting to adopt similar "inexpensive" manufacturing processes. S&W actually manufactured their own Saturday Night Special. It was called the .380 Sigma. It was a piece of pooh. Alumininum slide and polymer frame with hardly any controls. Big problem was they didn't charge $60 or $100 for it. Thank God they don't make it anymore. It was worse than a Jennings .380.

Back in the good old days we used solid billets of steel and milled our frames and slides. Now we use plastic or aluminum for the frames, and the slides are cast steel that has to be heat-treated after molding. I think that's okay as long as the gun doesn't KABOOM and fall apart or injure someone. As long as they use steel where it counts I feel safe. I think aluminum/zinc alloy with a steel breachface is okay with a low-powered weapon.

I think one of the reasons we don't have many Raven fans out there is because they don't make them anymore. I think if you shot one, you would be slightly impressed but embarrased to admit it. It's a good pistol for ladies with small hands. I would recommend practicing so that you can manage eyeball shots at 20+ feet.

All that being said I carry a .45acp for protection. Thanks for all your comments. You guys are alot of fun!

[Clean97GTI]

http://www.salagir.com/gfx/troll-web.jpg

[ImprezaWRXSTi]

i have the davis p32 which is the same thing and a kel-tec p32 and the davis does not compare..it is flatout junk


the raven and davis is made out of zinc alloy...it is very soft!..as far as the kel-tec ..i know some have had issues but i never got 1 FTF or FTE..WORKS PERFECTLY AND THE SLIDE AND BARREL ARE STEEL! and as far as size the keltec is infact smaller and lighter

[1 old 0311]

At least the Raven worked.:neener:

[MCgunner]

Originally Posted by makarovnik
I've shot the P-11 and it was so inaccurate I could have hit the bullseye more accuratley by throwing the gun at the target. Come on boys (and girls) let's hear it!

The gun's not inaccurate, you are. :rolleyes: My P11 will mow down 6" steel plates at 25 yards off hand and put 'em to POA inside 3.5" at 25 yards off bags, but I do know how to shoot DA without flinching. Shoot on a full size human target and aim for the head, I bet you're hitting about groin level and maybe left if you're a right handed shooter.

[MICHAEL T]

Quote" It's probably the smallest auto out there. It might be as heavy as the KelTec but it's definately smaller.

Baby Browing, or Bauer clone smallest 25 made. P-32 about 8 oz empty That crap SNS not close
Corbon 32 in a P-32 jell test 1008 fps 137 ft lbs and .435 expansion All Corbon expaned in test.
The 25 won't even come close to those numbers .
I have shot a 1 1/2 inch 3 shot group with my KT at 21' 1 handed takeing my time 2 rounds touching I pulled the 3 rd slighty.
I have 2 25's they are no longer carried

[bakert]

Jeff Cooper once made this statement about .25s ,32s etc.. "People shot with these small guns tend to become emotional and resort to violence". Nuff said for me!!:neener:

[Ermac]

Never mind this post

i thought makarovnic was being serious...

nothing to see here, move along...move along

[bluecowdawg]

it makes a good wieght for my trot line:D

[Axman]

FWIW, I've handled both the Phoenix Raven and it's predecessor. The Ravens made prior to Phoenix Replicating them were a little better quality than the newer verison. JMHO Personally, you'd be better off spending a little more for a Taurus than getting a Phoenix Raven.

[BB93YJ]

I heard someone say something to the effect that if you were to shoot a badguy with a .25, if he ever finds out, he's gonna be awful mad at you...:evil:

...and no, I won't volunteer to let someone take a shot at me with a .25, or even a BB gun, thank you very much.:eek:

[Snowdog]

Not too long ago, I fired a few rounds out of a buddy's .25acp Raven as I hadn't any experience with the .25acp. I was taken back how accurate it was for a pot-metal handgun. However, I also recall it being wider and definately heavier than the Kel-Tec P32 I usually pocket-carry during summer months.

Also, since the P32 was specifically mentioned for comparison, it should also be pointed out that the P32 is made with higher quality components,features a locking breech compared to the Raven's blowback (allowing the P32 to easily utilize hotter rounds than a blowback .32acp) and, IIRC the lighter, more powerful P32 holds one more round than the Raven.

[albanian]

A P-32 may be more powerful than a .25acp but not if it doesn't work. A jammed P-32 has about as much chance of killing your attacker as a nasty comment on his mother.:neener:

Like I said, my Raven worked, my Kel-Tec P-32 was compleatly unreliable and I would NEVER trust one of these with my life. I wouldn't trust a Raven with my life either but if I HAD to pick between the Raven I owned and the P-32 I owned, I would pick the Raven.

I don't know which gun is overall more reliable but I know from expreience which one WAS more reliable. There are quite a few P-32 owners that have had problems with their gun so I know it is not just me.

BTW, I carry a S&W 642 so I don't have to worry if my tiny jam-o-matic is going to work or not. Five for sure!