[jetski]

I am looking for my first gun. Since I live in NYC, i would need a license for a pistol so I will be going with a rifle or shotgun.
I will be using this for target practice mostly and home defense as well.
I am looking for accuracy when target practicing, so I will be getting a scope. Quality of the firearm is very important as safety is.
Any recommendations and prices to go along?

[Phenom]

Ruger has several carbines that would meet your needs. The PC series are chambered for 9mm and 40SW. Look at the 96/44 and the 99/44. Both are chambered for 44mag. Lastly, check into the Mini-14 chambered for 223rem;)

[cnk]

It would probably help if you also told us what type of long gun you would prefer. Bolt, semi-auto, muzzleloader, etc. Also, since you're in NYC, I'm sure there are a few restrictions so listing them out would help.

[jetski]

is there any difference between an underlever and a lever by the trigger to get the next bullet. Im very new to this and appreciate your help.

[Clipper]

...Is inexpensive, accurate (mine shoots 1" @ 25 yards), and comes with peep sights, a scope rail and a sling. It is available in 9mm & .40, with a .45ACP on the way, but 9mm is cheapest by far to shoot. You can add a ATI replacement stock (the factory stock is butt-ugly) and a cheap scope or reflex sight and still have only $250.00 or so invested. It's a riot to shoot, and everyone who's shot mine wants one. My wife will probably hijack mine, but that just gives me an excuse to buy another one... ;)

[Majic]

Rifles with scopes don't work in short range applications so it will be a big hinderance in a HD situation. Even if you remove the scope for HD you will have to reset the zero when you put it back on the rifle.

[MatthewVanitas]

A shotgun is good for home defense, but not so good for "target shooting". You can shoot skeet or trap (those little flying clay frisbees) with a shotgun though, which is tons of fun. If you want to use the same shotgun for both Home Defense and trap/skeet, you probably want to buy an extra barrel: one short barrel for home use, one long barrel for sports. Most brands have extra barrels available, and some even sell both barrels with the gun as a package deal.


If you want a rifle that can be shot in an indoor pistol range, and is also good for home defense, the Phenom is definitely right. Check your NYC/NYS laws to see what the complications are, but I believe that most models are legal so long as they don't have a folding stock, flash suppressor, etc. NY residents please correct if I'm wrong, and I'll edit my post.

Popular rifles in pistol calibers (which are inexpensive to shoot, can be shot in indoor ranges, and may be less problematic for self-defense shooting in an apartment) include rifles such as: Beretta Storm, Ruger PC, Kel-Tec Sub2000, etc. You can run a "Search" on this THR forum to find other writeups about these exact models. Also, the AR-15 (civilian version of the M16) is available in pistol calibers, but I believe that you have to buy a post-ban version to be legal in NY.

http://www.cx4storm.com/Moduli/ContentManager/publicimg/immagini/ergonomicalast.jpg

If you want something cool that looks a little more mainstream than the "Evil Black Rifles", then definitely check out a lever-action rifle, like John Wayne used to carry. Holds plenty of ammo, comes in nice short versions for easy handling, affordable and extremely durable, and might be less off-putting to friends that you take out shooting. Just as lethal as the above semi-autos, just different aesthetics. Good lever makers include Marlin and Rossi/Puma/EMF, with the latter being sold under several different brand names. The R/P/E/etc. are also lighter and smaller than the Marlin, being very good copies of the 1892 Winchester.

http://www.emf-company.com/images3/1892-rifles-carbines.jpg

http://www.emf-company.com/1892-winchester-rifle-carbine.htm

Just a few ideas, hopefully some NYC folks will weigh in soon. In future topics, it may help to post that you're NYC in the Title.

Welcome aboard,

-MV

[MatthewVanitas]

is there any difference between an underlever and a lever by the trigger to get the next bullet. Im very new to this and appreciate your help.

No worries man. You're on the right track: rifles are generally categorized by the type of action needed to put a new round in the chamber.

(BTW, the "bullet" is the part that flies out the barrel, the whole piece of ammunition is called a "round" or "cartridge", and includes the brass casing, gunpowder, igniting primer, and the bullet itself)

Major rifle types include:

1) Break action: the gun hinges in half, you take out the old brass case and put in a fresh cartridge.

2) Pump action: like a shotgun, you slide a pump underneath the barrel

3) Lever action: like a cowboy gun, your trigger hand is looped through a lever, so you just swing your hand forward a few inches, and then back.

4) Bolt action: like a hunting rifle, you turn the arm of the bolt up, pull it back, push forward, and turn the arm down.

5) Semi-automatic: as you fire each shot, part of the energy from the previous shot is used to cycle the mechanism and bring in a fresh round, you simply keep pulling the trigger. Differs from full auto only in that you need to press the trigger once for each shot you fire, rather than just holding the trigger down.

Hope that helps,

-MV

[jetski]

I was looking at the remington 597. Can you please provide details of what this would be ideal for.

[MatthewVanitas]

The Remington 597 would be described as a semi-automatic .22 rifle.


Such rifles are great for target shooting, hunting small animals like squirrels or rabbits, ideal for training beginners, etc.

A .22 rifle is not a terribly effective Home Defense rifle in terms of ballistics. A .22 can certainly be fatal, but is not as likely to halt an intruder, on a shot-by-shot basis, as a larger caliber.

That said, a .22 rifle has a few things going for it, even in terms of home defense: inexpensive, very cheap to get tons of practice, holds lots of ammo, easy to use.

If you're looking for a Home Defense rifle that you can target shoot with for fun, get a bigger caliber. If you're looking for a fun rifle that, in an emergency, is far better than no gun at all, get a .22.

I would not advise for the Remington 597 though. The hands-down top favorites are the Ruger 10/22 and the Marlin 60. I would take a good look at either of those. I don't hear from too many folks that are really wowed by the Remington .22.

-MV

[WiLLtallica]

What about hollow point .22 bullets in a pistol? I thought somewhere around the world they use .22 handguns pretty effectively.

[MatthewVanitas]

@Will: he's in NYC, and their pistol laws are ridiculous. IRT .22 HPs: sure, many, many people have been killed with .22LR, it's just not the ideal choice for combat.

Oh, prices. The Beretta Storm 9mm is $500ish, the lever action rifles (in .357, .44, .45) are $350-400, the Marlin and the Ruger .22s are both in the low $100s. I've even seen Marlins on sale for $99 in Texas, $50 in pawnshops. Not that it's a bad gun, just that it's such a good design that it can be made cheap, and such a popular design that Marlin's sold like 8 million of the suckers since 1960.

-MV

[Prince Yamato]

I noticed some of you are suggesting pistol-caliber carbines. They're great, but in some areas of NYS you need a pistol liscence to buy pistol magazines and pistol ammo. Also, the HP Carbine MAY classify as an assault weapon under NYC law (Not NYS law though) because of the pistol grip.

I would recommend a Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 shotgun. They're pretty standard, pump action and can be tactically configured (including pistol grips I believe) and not be considered an assault weapon under NY LAW. SKS rifles I believe are also ok in NYC. Best of all, most of these guns are cheap. If I am wrong about the SKS, then I would say, (in a pinch) go for a Mil Surplus 8mm Mauser or Mosin Nagant (I personally prefer the Mauser). No, 8mm is NOT a perfect choice for home defense, as it can penetrate walls, but if in doubt, you could always bayonet the SOB. :)

[mp510]

In NYC you need a license for long gun, and that license is seperate from any NYC pistol permit (premisis or carry).

[Just_a_dude_with_a_gun]

There are 2 major considerations to this user's questions.

1) Licensing...He is in NYC. He will need to be aware of the following:

How do I apply for a rifle/shotgun permit?
You must submit a completed rifle/shotgun permit application to the Rifle/Shotgun Section. The Rifle/Shotgun Section is located at 120-55 Queens Boulevard, Kew Gardens NY. The telephone number is 718-520-9300.

How much does it cost to apply for a rifle/shotgun permit?
The application fee for a permit is $140.00. You must also pay a fingerprint fee of $99.00. All fees must be paid by money order made payable to the “New York City Police Department.”

2) Location... whether he lives in a typical small NYC apartment, or an Attached mutifamily, A high powered, centerfire rifle round is a no-go.
It will also be difficult, tiresome to get to rifle-ready ranges, other than rimfire. The legalities of transporting of guns is also no joke in NYC. Shotguns might prove almost as difficult to practice with.

If he EVER want's to actually get some practice locally, he'd best get a Pistol caliber carbine, which would also solve his over penetration issue, as long as it's not on the Verboten list. A Ruger PC carbine, or Marlin Camp Carbine might do.

[trainwreck100]

I'm thinking a Ruger 9mm carbine might be just the ticket here, it's a fairly short range weak round, but effective enough at close range. It's also pretty cheap to shoot, and sometime in the future you can get a Ruger P-series pistol that will use the same magazine, so you don't have to keep a broad range of ammo or equipment on hand.

Greg

[ChopperKen]

If I was in the area Jetski is I think I would go with a lever action.
20" barrel chambered in 357mag/38.
The 357 could give ya range for target shooting and 38 special HP
should be weak enough for apartment protection (depending on wall const.)
Also it would be more accepable in looks than a EBR for those anti leaning folk.
YMMV
Ken

[MatthewVanitas]

Wow, at the prices that registration costs, I would buy one really nice rifle, and stick with that one. No sense in buying a $99 rifle and paying $240 in fees.

What do you think of the lever action rifles pictured above? Your thing, or not modern enough? If you haven't tried shooting one, they're awfully cool, and just about as fast as semi-auto. Plus, if you end up really liking it, there are gunsmiths who specialize in them that can really make them purr, add some high-quality sights, etc.

The only semi-auto that has as much modification is the AR-15, which as mentioned above is available in pistol calibers. If you don't mind having an EBR (evil black rifle) the AR-15 would be the way to go, if available in a format which meets NY's Assault Weapons Ban.


-MV

[akodo]

What about hollow point .22 bullets in a pistol? I thought somewhere around the world they use .22 handguns pretty effectively. Yes, in some areas of the world the .22 handgun is preferred...for sneaking up and putting the barrel of the gun directly on the back of the head of the victim.

Not neccessarily a good home defense round....

[wuchak]

Remington 870 12 gauge with 18" barrel and 7 round magazine http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model_870/model_870_express_synthetic_18inch.asp
or a Mossberg 500 Persuader http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=5&section=productsfor home defense. Equiped with a SureFire shotgun weapon light http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/carfnbr/92/sesent/00
and secured in the bedroom in a Loc-Box http://www.mossberg.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=97


A Remington 572 Field Master http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/rimfire_rifles/model_572_fieldmaster.asp or a Taurus M62 pump action .22 for fun target shooting and to get used to using a pump.

Also recommend starting the application process for at least a Premise pistol permit. It will probably take a long time to make it through all the hoops but when/if you get it you'll be glad you did. Also recommend joining and supporting both the NRA and ScopeNY http://www.scopeny.org/ to try to get NY's handgun regulations changed.

It's interesting to note that NYC's concealed carry laws Implemented by the Sullivan Act in 1911 were intended to put the cost of obtaining a permit out of the reach of the poor immigrants and to place the power to decide who received permits in the hands of the corrupt police department that was controlled by Tammany Hall.
excerpt from http://www.gunlawnews.org/sullivan.html
""Big Tim" Sullivan was a politician and organized crime boss in this period. He was a part of the Tammany Hall political machine that controlled a corrupt New York City Police Department (and thereby the future Pistol Licensing Bureau). He also owned the Hesper Club, a successful gambling establishment on the lower east side. This is the man who proposed the Sullivan Act and it is named after.

By writing the law as it was, Sullivan provided himself several advantages. He could:

* guarantee his body guards could be armed,
* guarantee his opponent's body guards should not be armed,
* and use a corrupt police force to arrest his opponents for violations, guilty or not.

It is said that one political opponent had all his pockets sewn closed after three arrests for carrying guns without a permit."

Unfortunately this law still manages to keep firearms out of reach of the NYC residents who need them the most. Namely, those law abiding citizens who live in the poorest most crime ridden areas of the city where even the police are afraid to set foot. It's not right that they are deprived of the means to defend themselves due to the hight cost of legally owning a firearm

[quatin]

I see the questions of the .22lr stopping power pop up alot of times on threads. Has anyone seen someone getting hit with some .22lr rounds? I would think that with my incompetent pistol skills :o I would probably hit an intruder many more times by just reaching around the corner with a .22lr than a 9mm. Or even a Ruger 10/22 with a large drum and just spraying in the direction. For argument's sake, what has more stopping force: a couple of hits by a 9mm or a handful of .22lr hits let's say mostly body shots. The ultimate goal isn't to kill the guy, but to incapacitate him, or else a stronger round is definetly needed.

[DerringerUser]

Once you get a pistol permit:
http://www.kaehny.de/schreckschuss/noris/twiny2al.JPG

For now:

A snappy citori 525 feild .28 gauge will do.

http://www.midwestgunworks.com/merchant2/graphics/00000001/013085_2.jpg

[Justaman]

12 gauge pump

[rangerruck]

marlin mod 60. inexpensive, light recoiling, can find them used for 50 to 70 bucks, accurate, light. Allways a good idea to start out on a 22. also very cheap for the ammo.

[Run&Shoot]

here are 2 major considerations to this user's questions.

1) Licensing...He is in NYC. He will need to be aware of the following:



Don't be ridiculous! He doesn't live in Communist China does he?
(Remove tongue from cheek)

Seriously, I would recommend the Marlin 1894 lever action in .357/.38 or similar rifle. Cheap to feed, effective for home defense and you can usually shoot at least the .38 Specials at any indoor pistol range. No magazines to deal with, fairly high capacity (9-10), reliable as all get out, and fun.

[Bridger]

Further NYC considerations- CAPACITY

It is my understanding that rifles/shotguns cannot hold more than 5 or 6 rounds.

An M1 Garand is legal as long as you only have 5 round clips for it and not 8, and you grind off the bayonet lug.

I think Ruger 10/22s sold in NYC have special 5 round magazines. I think this rules out the pistol caliber leverguns too.

Looked into it a little bit for a non-resident permit when I'm in my apt. Decided it wasn't worth it and I'd just stick to shooting upstate on weekends.

[jetski]

Guys, I'm sorry if I miswrote. I live in Nassau County, which is in NY State.
I will be going with the Ruger 10/22. I spoke to someone in ATF and there are no laws or regulations with regards to this gun, except for the standard background check and id.
Thanks for all your help. I hope this first gun will be ok. Will elt you know in further posts.

[mp510]

The 10/22 is a good first gun to learn the basics of marksmanship with, and it will be fun. They work well both stock, and can be customized very easily.

[hnk45acp]

Coliseum Gun Traders is a great shop in Nassau County. PM me if you want to know about NYC.
-a nyer

[Bridger]

Ah, Nassau county, good choice of a 10/22 then! Stock up on ammo too!

[Flopsy]

I agree with the suggestion for a Mossberg 500 series pump shotgun. They have "special purpose" versions that are great guns and highly reliable. The best part: you can get them for about $250 at a sporting goods store like Dicks, far less than most new handguns or rifles. Also the 12 gauge round will allow you to use all different types of ammo to work best in your individual environment.

[Stacy B.]

Buy a wheel gun in 22 or 357mag as it will shoot 38 ammo also, You dont need a permit as gov. cannot keep records of firearms, only dealers do that. They can despose those records after 5 years.

[speaksoftly]

Mossberg 500, 590, 590 A1

All three are fantastic weapons. I've owned all three in that order. Sold the 500 from boredom, sold the 590 to pay bills, am in love with my 590 A1 and will just about starve before I let her go.

[stanger04]

You live in NY, are you in an apartment? How thick are the walls? I would be very worried about over penatration, a shotgun would be better with birdshot loaded in it.