[Monkeyleg]

I don't believe I saw this story anywhere on THR, which is pretty amazing. These two punks came very close.

The story's too long, so here's the link. (http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=498353)

[DerringerUser]

Wow, that was freaky. Those two must've been pretty messed up to even plan that. You'd think the parents would've been aware of their suicidal behavior, guess not.

[AJAX22]

While disturbing, I may have to call hyperbole (sp?) on the quantity of guns present.

http://www2.jsonline.com/multimedia/graphic.asp?graphic=http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/news/img/sep06/bay391606.jpg

I think I see two or three BB guns, and an airsoft rifle in the box. it makes ya wonder just what they consider a gun to be.

[Flak_Jakett]

I guess anything that shoots a projectile, even a rubber band projectile wouold be considered a gun. Though most of the guns shown in the box appear to be a little toyish, the shotgun and handgun would do enough damage. I think their main weapon was going to be those bombs and the home made napalm. A friend and I made that stuff when I was a kid out of gasoline and styrofoam. It was easy to make and that stuff was nasty. We dropped it off of a 75+ ft. cliff into a rock quarry and still got our eyebrows singed.

[weregunner]

The amazing part to this is the parents and friends claim that they had no clue that this was taking place. How do you miss something that obvious over that period of time? Parents can't always know every little thing,but that's rediculous. My kids have had me in their business. It may not be popular with them,but as long as they are under this roof rules will be followed and I will find out what they are doing. Parents have to be involved in their kids lives or have to expect catastrophy somewhere along the way. We don't have concealed carry here and may never,given the attitudes of people and politicians. If these loons had been able to implement plan A no one would have been able to intervine until major bloodshed took place. The police officer at Columbine was practically useless. He may have slowed the perps down,but did not stop them. He may not have been able to. I wasn't there so will not dump criticism on him. Building clearing is very hazerdous. And no partner or backup can be suicidal. So I am glad a student came forward and had the great courage to inform authorities. That is not easy with peer pressure and a negative society outlook on such reporting. Too many go along with the "cool crowd." We shall see if the justice system works on this and hands down harsh sentences or gives these ' poor unfortunates" a slap on the wrist. I live in Wisconsin and don't have much faith justice will be served. The judges here for the most part seem to be activist , liberal, or both.

[knoxx45]

looks like a bunch of "air-soft" and bb guns.

[Zero_DgZ]

Guns in the picture are (insofar as I can tell, from left to right):

- A NEF or Rossi looking single break shotgun
- A cheap Beeman spring air rifle (the model escapes me)
- An airsoft M4 variant
- A Crosman Pumpmaster 760 BB gun

The pistol butts sticking out of the box are tougher to identify.

[CornCod]

And ohhhhh! they read evil gun magazines. .

[AJ Dual]

It's a big story around here in WI obviously, however, these planned school attacks are getting less media time overall, which is a good thing.

It's the media exposure that gives the next set of suicidal kids the idea. When they see the obsessive hand-wringing over Columbine, and the priror shootings, they want to make that kind of impact, and the media exposure increases the preception.

This really is a new kind of suicide, where the suicidal ascribes to the "The honor guard you take to hell with you increases your status" etc.

Frankly, I want to see LOCAL coverage of these events, and then let it drop. Since the police and schools are getting better at detecting the warning signs, and because of Columbine more people are aware of what's possible, they're getting caught beforehand, exactly as it should be.

In a roundabout way, you can almost ascribe the "shooter" phenomena to the anti-gun mentality that's grown since the 1960's. Before then, guns were just everyday items, to be used with appropriate care. Now in so many families, they're "forbidden fruit", and as such they become talismans of power to those who feel powerless.

Save that grown man who dynamited a Michigan school in a dispute with local government, there never were "school shootings" back when anyone could buy guns mail-order or at the local hardware store with no questions asked...

[Manedwolf]

Sturtz had also developed a relationship with a girl over the Internet, Sterr said, and when it ended Wednesday, he "was very upset and became extremely enraged," she said.

There's been a lot of cases of...socially awkward sorts who fly off the deep end when they find out that due to the anonymity of the internet, it wasn't even a girl.

And, as always, it's the PERSON'S fault, not the guns.

[Prince Yamato]

This really is a new kind of suicide, where the suicidal ascribes to the "The honor guard you take to hell with you increases your status" etc.

Don't worry, I'm sure the school psychologist will suggest which drugs the kids should go on to "cure" them. Science has ALL the answers you know... Which actually brings up another point. In the 40s-60s most people were brought up with a sense of Judeo-Christian morality. You kill people, you go to hell. Today, we have kids who have NO concept of morality period (thanks liberal politicians!). They figure that there's no consequence to their actions beyond this world. I'm not saying everyone has to be a fundamentalist, but a little fear of God DOES help now and then. Fear of God and fear of hell did/ does keep most people in line.

[roscoe]

No doubt about it - being religious makes you moral. Lets just review history for confirmation of that fact . . .

[Justin]

This thread will get back on topic or be closed.

[cosine]

Thanks Justin.

You know, this is the first I've heard of this.

[up_onus]

My first reaction is to be scared that I will be sending my children to school where there are "freaks".
But, with the new advent of the information highway....I come to realize that this an incident that was fairly isolated....
Still, its amazing that people can even think of doing this....religious or not.

[American By Blood]

Sturtz had also developed a relationship with a girl over the Internet, Sterr said, and when it ended Wednesday, he "was very upset and became extremely enraged," she said.

She must have finally seen his neck-beard.

Anyway, those pointing out that the box full of "weapons" appears to contain more than a few BB guns and airsoft toys are dead on. My gut tells me that the shotgun and the pistol are the only real firearms they had. It's good the boys didn't get the opportunity to put them to the use they had in mind, but the ten gun cache seems a wee bit inflated. Of course, when you're a journalist trying to give the impression that in America outside of a few select cities it's easier to get guns than penny candy fudging numbers just makes sense.

I wonder how this bodes for CCW in WI. In reality it has nothing to do with the issue, but antis have a way of mashing totally unrelated things together. Something along the lines of "JUST IMAGINE IF THESE BOYS COULD CARRY!!!" Nevermind the fact that not a single shall-issue state gives permits to juveniles.

[weregunner]

Radio morning talk show host hit one of the nails on the head this morning. All of us adults didn't have the thought enter our heads to kill and miam, much less commit suicide over getting picked on in school. Despite nasty thoughts that one might get wanton killing never entered my mind when this happened. Slugging the bullies (got into fights like others from time to time) was about as far as the thoughts or intentions went. An individual is mentally disturbed if that is the only solution these three could come up with. The 2 main players actually had friends, so that can't be the whole story. Bullying was just the excuse as was the case at Columbine. People who should have major psychiatric help or be institutionalized are put back out on the streets thanks to the ACLU and others of there mind set. This includes the teachers unions and the parents as well. Parents who ignore their parental responsibilities seem to never have wanted the kids or the consequences of having them. Parental skills are lacking completely. A return to Christian values is sorely needed. For the athiest and agnostics out there,too bad. Structure is what these kids need all the way through life. A moral center is needed. Without it people are lost. I won't apologize for possibly offending anyone as I will stand my ground and not back down on this. If one disagrees, so be it. Other religions would teach values as well. That all said and the venting is over. Be safe people.

[ScottsGT]

Uhhh..We only saw one photo here. True, my first impression of the photo was too many toys in the box, but we don't know what else was brought out before the photog got there.

[AJ Dual]

wonder how this bodes for CCW in WI. In reality it has nothing to do with the issue, but antis have a way of mashing totally unrelated things together. Something along the lines of "JUST IMAGINE IF THESE BOYS COULD CARRY!!!" Nevermind the fact that not a single shall-issue state gives permits to juveniles.


I don't think there's much impact for WI CCW, if anything, it reinforces the notion that criminals and prohibited persons don't need a "permit" to commit crimes.

[MechAg94]

I seriously doubt they had a large stash of weapons/bombs, but I am sure they had enought to hurt some people.

A sawed off single barrel shotgun just doesn't seem right.

My Christian upbringing was about learning to take responsibility for my own actions, good or bad.

[gunsmith]

briefly on the news and it looked like they confiscated
a bunch of toys, and someones mom was blaming
the school because her son was getting picked on.

Things sure are different then when I was a kid in the 1960's.
There was a kid picking on me and when he grabbed me
and lifted me by the shirt (he was huge & had been left behind
4 times!) I jabbed my pen in his hand.....the only reaction
was "I bet he won't try that again".

As a white kid in a mostly black high school I always carried a knife
and used it to fend off muggers weekly, no one seemed to care.

Schools today coddle bullies and thugs and anyone caught fighting
gets thorazine, I think just letting them slug it out
would lead to less of these type situations.

Prayer in schools would help too.

[ny32182]

Ten bucks says they were "raised Christian" just like 99% of everyone else in Wisconsin.

Sick individuals are just that, no matter which brand of religion happens to keep them happy...

[SwampFox]

The article said that the kids had been "planning this for years" and one of the boys said "the time isn't right."

No doubt that the kids need to clean the cobwebs from their belfry, but I doubt there was any real danger here.

[gunsmith]

"raised Christian"

So what if they were raised Christian? what would that have to do with it?

Are you suggesting that would lead to a propensity for violence?

When as a kid we were led in prayer in a public school, it was non-denominational.....& no one got shot, or offended.

When they ended school prayer I noticed a marked increase in school violence and had to bring weapons to school.

[NineseveN]

When they ended school prayer I noticed a marked increase in school violence and had to bring weapons to school.

Not that this is on-toipc, but that's an illusion. Carry on.

[American By Blood]

Gunsmith and Weregunner raise a good point in mentioning fistfighting.

I wonder how much of the "Columbine" trend is rooted in today's society of lawsuits, criminal charges, permanent records, and (counter-intuitively) anti-violence.

Like everyone else, when I was a kid I had problems at school every so often. Youth has its rough patches. For the most part I could lob insults right back and be done with it. But for the more persistent bullies, that didn't always work. As long as I talked to my parents about it and they could see that it was an on-going problem they were prepared to back me up. Their policy was that I should try to ignore taunting for as long as possible. If not getting a rise out of me failed to deter a committed jerk I was to warn the person that I was prepared to fight them. If that warning wasn't taken seriously and didn't dissuade the bully I had the green light to sock the tar out of them. I only had to do that a couple of times. Each instance my parents went to the mat for me and the administration, after looking at the context of the fights, opted not to so much as stick me with detention and considered the bruises, scrapes, and humiliaton the bully's punishment.

It seems, though, that these days a kid absolutely cannot slug a bully. He'll be suspended, put on some sort of "dangerous kid" watchlist, subjected to all sorts of "therapy", expose his family to a lawsuit, etc etc ad nauseum. You don't have to have a crystal ball to see how repressing relatively low levels of violence (a justified playground scrap) could lead to "Columbine" type incidents. All that violence comes out at once in a far more fearsome form due to the strength it built under pressure. Nasty stuff.

[Phenom]

I could have beat the kids up that bullied me. If my parents found out I defended myself, they would beat the hell out of me. Ignoring a bully doesn't always work. I say the bullied child physically fights back before the bullying gets out of hand. I went to school in the '90s when all of those school shootings took place.

[BlkHawk73]

The amazing part to this is the parents and friends claim that they had no clue that this was taking place. How do you miss something that obvious over that period of time?

This actually doesn't surprise me at all. Families are NOt what they once were. Both parents work in most families and kids are taxied around by friends or family to this event, that event and anything else. There's very little actual family time now. It used to be at this time, dinner maybe, that famly members talked and discussed things. Parents used to see thier kids more and be more aware of who their kids were with and what theywere doing. With person-to-person communicatiosn all digital now parnets simply call the kids cell phone and ask where they are. While the parents don't seem to be directly involved, the upbringing has a lot to do with it. the shame and humility of the parents will surely take it's rightful toll on them but it's unfortunately too late to chage the unbringing.
Now know we're not supposed to profile and all that but c'mon those two don't look like your frindly boy next door take my daughter kind of kids. Right or wrong, you can very often tell that someone needs 'help" in thier appearance. This help will come too late but fortunately not too TOO late.

[gunsmith]

with all due respect, school shootings were extremely rare when the USA had
school prayers in public schools.
Off hand, all I can think of is a famous tower shooting on a college campus.
Were there other school shootings in the 60's, 50's 40's?...(to be honest, I have no idea)

Can I prove with scientific certainty school shootings and lack of prayer
are linked? I doubt it.

Can I prove with scientific certainty school shootings and lack of ability of
modern kids to slug it out during recess? I doubt it.


Do I believe these things are linked? Heck yeah!

[NineseveN]

with all due respect, school shootings were extremely rare when the USA had
school prayers in public schools.
Off hand, all I can think of is a famous tower shooting on a college campus.
Were there other school shootings in the 60's, 50's 40's?...(to be honest, I have no idea)

Can I prove with scientific certainty school shootings and lack of prayer
are linked? I doubt it.

Can I prove with scientific certainty school shootings and lack of ability of
modern kids to slug it out during recess? I doubt it.


Do I believe these things are linked? Heck yeah!

Now you're specifying "shootings" as opposed to violence. First, a lot more goes into it than prayer in school. You have to look at violence overall as economic conditions (how many people can afford guns), opportunity (how many guns per capita) and population (the number of students in relation to the number of incidents) as well as the number of institutions (more schools + more students = more opportunity. More guns + more people being able to afford guns + more schools + more students = more opportunity for school violence in sheer numbers but doesn't really speak to the actual per capita results). Violence in schools on a meaningful per capita basis has not risen tremendously with the lack of school prayer, it has ebbed and flowed independently of it, and it existed long before prayer was stricken from schools…the tools and the media coverage are what has changed, not human nature and violence in society even among the youth.

Some helpful links:

http://atheism.about.com/library/chronologies/blchron_sep_schoolprayer.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_in_school

Recent School Shootings
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1005192

Pretty good timeline of the major news-making violent events relating to schools
http://www.columbine-angels.com/other_shootings.htm


Long ago, before your average school-aged street thug could afford a gun, violence was still very real, the perps just used their bare hands, knives, clubs etc...

I am not aware of a significant study comparing the era's and all of the above conditions, but when someone was knifed in a high school, it never made national news in the 50's, 60's or 70's...and it happened often enough especially in urban schools. Now, if one kid shoots another kid in a school we get bombarded with CCN breaking news for three weeks. School violence hasn't gotten worse, the media coverage has simply become more prevalent (on this topic as well as every other topic that is deemed news-worthy).


Short but decent article on the subject from the Secret Service's POV
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/fyi/teachers.ednews/03/06/secret.service/


Pretty substantial look at school shootings and violent children
http://www.bookrags.com/researchtopics/violent-children/


The majority theme with the recent cop of kids involved in high-profile school shootings is that they are:

Depressed
Social Outcasts
Come from seemingly good, often religious families

But these profiles only take into account the mass murder shootings. When a couple of gangbangers shoot it out in school in my hometown, CNN doesn't even blink an eye and no one hears about it. of course, no one heard about the race riots in our public schools here in the 80's either...where people were beaten, stabbed, raped in large numbers...

You may think the way you do, but the media is pulling the strings behind the curtain as far as what you see, your bias is filling in the blanks.

[Prince Yamato]

My intent with my original post was not to proselytize or force "religion" on anyone. It was merely to state a difference between what goes on with children today and in the past. I am in my early twenties so I have experience with "the younger generation". I assure you that most of this violence is a result of modern culture. Think of the mottos of the 1990s that these kids were brought up with "No Fear", "He who dies with the most toys wins", "Exxxtreme ______, Live fast, die young, leave a good looking corpse". The state of these kids' families (modern families) was/is disastrous. They're raised by the media and crackpot teachers. Let's combine two messages they get/got:

1) No Fear

2) Guns are dangerous and bad and are only used by bad guys.

Now take a derranged kid who adds the two together. You get, "How do I be the biggest baddass in school? Easy, Shoot my classmates". Most of us on this forum believe in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Basic tennents of freedom and natural law (through which one can derive principles of morality even if one is not religious). You don't tread on other people's rights. These kids were taught NONE of these precepts either by parents (who are necessary for constant reinforcement) or by school (which probably told him that democracy and religion were evil and that morality is relative). As far as they were concerned, there were no consequences to their actions.

The same is true of the modern bully. It's no longer good enough to "pretend" to be a badass. Now we have gang members in schools who get "street cred" by beating the hell out of fellow students. How does the nerdy kid trump gang member- easy, be a serial killer (school shooter). Hooray for modern culture!

Again, my intent was not to preach from the pulpit but offer logical reasons why the kids shot up or wanted to shoot their classmates.

[James T Thomas]

Prince Yamato:

For a young man who is in his early twenties, I would say you have good powers of observation and some common sense too.

I'm wondering if the direction of all this can be reversed?

[History Prof]

In a roundabout way, you can almost ascribe the "shooter" phenomena to the anti-gun mentality that's grown since the 1960's. Before then, guns were just everyday items, to be used with appropriate care. Now in so many families, they're "forbidden fruit", and as such they become talismans of power to those who feel powerless.
That is why my kid is free to see, feel, and shoot my firearms at any time she pleases (well, if we can get to the range on the third one, that is). No mystery. She never asks to go shooting (but will go when I do) and really has no interest in (or unhealthy fear of) firearms. She does know what they can do and knows that other kids may not be as "savvy" as she is. She is perfectly safe around the firearms in *our* house, and would never have the need to do something stupid like this. As a kid, I had access to far more firepower than the Columbine Kids. I never shot anybody. Hmm. I wonder why my dad's guns never made me do anything evil.:banghead:

[MSGT9410]

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/news/img/sep06/bay391606.jpg


So... Anyone else notice anything strange about this picture?

[ScottsGT]

Nike...Just do it

[Prince Yamato]

you know, if that agent is carrying ALL those guns in ONE box and the box hasn't tipped over, methinks they're all toys. Real guns are heavy and would break/tip the box. :banghead: Doesn't change the fact that the kids were still plotting to kill classmates, but you have to love the fact that the press wants to scare everyone. Who wants to bet that the kids will be described as having an "arsenal"?

[Zero_DgZ]

I told you, all the guns in that box are airsoft or air rifles except the leftmost one, which looks like a small guage break open shotgun (maybe even a .410, compare the barrel to the airsoft gun in the middle).

[Justin]

Think of the mottos of the 1990s that these kids were brought up with "No Fear", "He who dies with the most toys wins", "Exxxtreme ______, Live fast, die young, leave a good looking corpse".

"Live fast, die young, leave a good-looking corpse."
-Nick Romano (John Derek) from the film Knock on Any Door (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0041555/maindetails), Columbia Pictures 1949.

[NineseveN]

The problem is not that things have changed, because they haven't. In a thousand years, human nature hasn't changed. Humankind is a violent species, period. We've worked to try and suppress and control these instincts through education, culture and understanding, but nothing is 100% when it comes to the dynamics of human action. That's just the way the cookie crumbles. History is littered with people, both young and old, committing terrible acts of violence and sadism...the problem isn't that the world has changed, it's that people haven't. Of course, don't tell that to the media, their revenues depend on getting you folks hooked on the bleeding crisis of the hour.

So go ahead and line up before the media teat and be good little consumers. Me, I'll stick to an intellectually honest perspective and the belief that the media is sensationalist crap most of the time.