Can anyone say with conviction that a shotgun is the ultimate home defense tool?


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Justaman
September 19, 2006, 02:59 AM
Currently I use an XD9 for home defense, but in the back of my mind I see a 12 gauge as being superior for this purpose. Perhaps with more training I will go with a pump.

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Waywatcher
September 19, 2006, 03:16 AM
No conviction here, nor can I say I know the ultimate.

Why not a good semi-auto shotgun?

12 guages are light years ahead of any service pistol in terms of power. They will typically deliver in the vicinity of 400 grains of lead in excess of 1300 fps. (e.g. Slugs out of an 18" barrel are 438 grains and doing 1440 fps)

They really dont stick out away from your body any further than a properly held pistol either.

I would definitely pick my shotgun up before my pistols. Pistols excel at being with you when you need them, but when you're home grab something more powerful.

Run&Shoot
September 19, 2006, 05:39 AM
No question. You need both a pistol and shotgun, but if you have time to get to your shotgun it is no contest as to which is better for HD.

What if a pit bull or other large, heavy muscled dog was ripping a neighbor kid, or your kid, apart across the street? You want to go into the fray with a 9mm or a 12 ga. with buckshot and slugs? What if there were riots in you area for any of a number of reasons? You want to face down a crowd with just the 9mm or a shotgun full of buck and you XD on your hip? What if a couple of thugs break into your home at night and you hear them charging around and about to come upstairs? What do you want in your hands waiting for them? 124 gr hollowpoints (about 1/4 to 1/3 ounce) of .355 caliber, or 1 1/4 ounce of buck and 1 oz slugs of .70 caliber?

Dave McCracken
September 19, 2006, 08:27 AM
Yes, for a shotgunner. Awesome power, superb reliability.

If a 1/3 oz slug .357" in diameter is good, an oz slug at .73" is better....

And at typical HD ranges, effect of large shot duplicates a slug.

Of course, it's easier to buy the hardware than acquire the software. BA/UU/R....

LeonCarr
September 19, 2006, 09:24 AM
Inside of a house, the shotgun is the ultimate home defense tool. A good pump shotgun (Used Remington 870, Mossberg 500, Winchester 1300, etc) can be found used or new for less money than the average handgun, and is much more effective and versatile.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

rustymaggot
September 19, 2006, 10:18 AM
ultimate is a word that can always be one upped. and then things get so big they start going back down the scale because of their awkwardness. a 8 gauge shotgun might be better than a 12 gauge but recoil would render it worse than a 12 gauge for some people. all things are a trade off.

so, if you ask me, the ultimate hd tool is thinking ahread. install rose bushes under the windows to keep people from sneaking in, have a dog that yaps when strangers get inside the fence. enough forethought and you will likely never need the shotgun.

knoxx45
September 19, 2006, 10:54 AM
Personally, I feel that the AR15 is the best HD weapon. I think that most people have some backwards idea of home defense in their head. If I was storming someone else’s house (as in executing a high risk arrest warrant) then I would want a shotgun. I think that for clearing room to room a short barreled shottie is the best choice, but for defense, give me an AR.
Here is why. I will not, repeat not, be clearing rooms in my own house. That is what I pay taxes for; so that the police can do it. What I will do is lock the bedroom door, arm myself and the wife with our AR’s and extra mags, and get behind cover and wait. If I have time, I will barricade the door with a dresser or the blanket chest. The way I see it is that I have an alarm and two German Shepherds. I think that I will know if someone is trying to break into my home.
The AR also has the advantage of holding more rounds, is easier and faster to reload, and most importantly in a HD situation, IMHO, provides a greater and more sustainable volume of fire. Should push come to shove, and for whatever reason, a home invader is determined to get to us, the wife can pour fire in the general direction while I take aimed shots.
Also, in a true SHTF situation, we can take accurate shots a couple of hundred yards away, unlike a shottie who’s max effective range, even with slugs, is a fraction of that.

For HD take two AR’s and call me in the morning.

Just my thoughts…

Knoxx

Marshall
September 19, 2006, 11:01 AM
A short barreled shotgun with appropriate ammo is unequivically the best home defense firearm available. Back it up with a handgun and you're in business.

Fred Fuller
September 19, 2006, 12:06 PM
I can say that it is definitely the preferred HD tool for me- given time to get to it. I cannot however put a shotgun in my pocket or waistband, as I do with a handgun (yes, even at home) and keep it there whenever I am awake and dressed.

Ultimate? Just as there is no "best," there is no "ultimate" imho. There are different people with different skillsets in different houses in different situations, and words like best or ultimate are just too sweeping as generalizations to apply. For me a shotgun is the go-to defensive weapon of choice, because I know what it will do and I know what I can do with it. That's under 'home defense' circumstances, if I have to defend myself against a rifleman 150 meters away, then there's a loaded AR-15 that lives outside the gunsafe also. But there's always a handgun on my person when it's legal. And I try not to go places it isn't legal.

lpl/nc

Thin Black Line
September 19, 2006, 02:53 PM
What if a pit bull or other large, heavy muscled dog was ripping a neighbor kid, or your kid, apart across the street? You want to go into the fray with a 9mm or a 12 ga. with buckshot and slugs?

Short of holding the weapon against the dog's head (if it would stay still)
I wouldn't take a shot if it was rending the kid back and forth.

However, a poke from the bayonet mounted on my M590 might help it to
disengage from the little tike and allow for a clear shot :D

knoxx45
September 19, 2006, 03:00 PM
I forgot, if the perps are wearing body armor of any sort, the 223 will punch through it. Buckshot or slugs will not. And any criminal with more than two brain cells these days can buy a bullet proof vest, even though they wouldn’t wear it while committing a felony, because that’s against the law.:D

PJR
September 19, 2006, 03:07 PM
I don't think you can make a blanket statement about a shotgun being the ultimate home defense tool. It depends on the owner, the house and where the house is located.

For a slightly built woman who has little experience and can't manage recoil a Ruger 10/22 with a reliable large capacity magazine filled with CCI Stingers might be preferable.

An AR-15 would be a good choice in a rural area but maybe not in a subdivision. I'd shy away from a full rifle caliber because firing one indoors would be harder on the ears than a shotgun.

Another choice and one that I've considered is a short lever action rifle in a pistol round, probably .357/.38. With .38 SPL the rifle is relatively quiet, provides good velocity from the longer barrel and can have 10 rounds or more on tap.

In the meantime I'll stick with my 870.

rustymaggot
September 19, 2006, 03:14 PM
yeah, but even with armor a 12 gauge slug will put a hurtin on em. and when they are catching their breath you hit em again. and again. and again. till they fall down. and if they move after that hit em again. till they quit reaching for stuff.

Handgun Midas
September 19, 2006, 03:27 PM
I'm toying with the idea of buying a dual pistol grip 870 for HD, but my home is an apartment.
What kind of loads should I use to provide effective stopping power, without dangerous overpenetration?
Realistically, is the danger of overpenetration about the same s the 230gr JHPs I'm currently sporting in my .45?

I'm concerned about causing massive damage to my own apartment qand property, as well as blowing a hole into my neigbor's bedroom.
Is a shotgun less ideal for apartment defense?

What about less-lethal loads for the 870? Anybody fool with bean bags?

Biker
September 19, 2006, 04:30 PM
A SG is a great HD tool. That said, I'd rather grab my Bushmaster for various reasons, many of which have already been mentioned, but I'll likely grab my 870 because having fired both the 5.56 and 12G BS loads indoors without hearing protection, the SG blast is much less disorienting than the blast of the 5.56.
IMO, the difference was that significant.
Give me hearing protection and I'll take the Bushmaster, without, my 870.

Biker

Marshall
September 19, 2006, 05:03 PM
I forgot, if the perps are wearing body armor of any sort, the 223 will punch through it. Buckshot or slugs will not. And any criminal with more than two brain cells these days can buy a bullet proof vest, even though they wouldn’t wear it while committing a felony, because that’s against the law.

With a shotgun they better have a bullet proof face to go with that. :neener:

enfield
September 19, 2006, 05:14 PM
Nope, not me.

Correia
September 19, 2006, 05:16 PM
Please, there is only one ULTIMATE SHOTGUN!!!!!

(old school posters know the one I'm talking about).

And you load it with ULTIMATE BUCKSHOT!!!!

:)

Oh, those were some interesting threads.

atlctyslkr
September 19, 2006, 06:54 PM
Crime is picking up in my area, a house near me got hit Sunday night/Monday morning. I'll let you know in a few days when the thugs make it my way. I'm hoping my 870 will do the job.

B.D. Turner
September 19, 2006, 07:06 PM
My choice for HD shotgun is a Beretta 1200 FP semi auto. I can fire it single handed if need be over and over and over. This is important if I have to grab or hold one of my kids to get them to safety. I like pumps too but would rather have the auto. I would grab the shotgun over the AR. AR holds 30 rounds. Shotgun holds 7 rounds of 00 buck which equals to 63 .32 caliber bullets. The Beretta will dump the last shell before the first empty hits the floor something an AR cannot do.

torpid
September 19, 2006, 07:45 PM
I would imagine that two pistol gripped 12 gauge shotguns (one Mossberg 500 with 00 buck, one Remington 870 with a slug) held in leg scabbards while laying on one's back and pressing one's boots against the middle of the door to the room you are defending would, if fired simultaneously with legs braced firmly, be considered...

Oh, nevermind.

.

CSA 357
September 19, 2006, 08:14 PM
mod 12 winchester loaded with 7 # 4 buck shot you do the math, i think its better than a m 16 in a home defense situation, put some 1 oz slugs if you need more, *csa*:D

Nematocyst
September 19, 2006, 08:38 PM
Torpid,

LOL. :D

nitesite
September 19, 2006, 08:56 PM
Well, I cannot make such a blanket statement about the shotgun. Or the rifle for that matter.

That's why when I am home there is an 8+1 Mossberg 590 and a Bushmaster AR-15 and a Ruger 77 Mk II .243 all loaded (with empty chambers) in my open safe. Oh yeah, a Yugo SKS with Cor-Bon soft points, as well. :cool:

I might have an animal control issue in my yard. I might have a car full of meth-heads show up in my driveway with questionable intent. I might have another coyote lurking 150-yards from my front door. I might have someone attempting to steal a tractor or equipment from the hay barn 75-yards away. And I may actually have a home intruder ("say hello to meester Glock 29 ")

I feel like I've covered most of my bases as far as equipment/hardware goes. And I train/practice a good deal because I can shoot on my own property. And shoot lots of drills both at home and at the range.

My greatest danger may just be a moment of indecision... :uhoh:

XavierBreath
September 19, 2006, 09:11 PM
I am a believer in a 12 gauge shotgun for home defense. I keep one at several strategic locations in my home, loaded with 00 low recoil buckshot. Shotguns are cheap, effective, and probably the best home defense tool for my situation. Compared to a pistol, I believe the shotgun to be definitely superior.

The one factor that cannot be overlooked is having a plan. Whether you choose a rifle, shotgun, or handgun to defend your home, you should have a plan. You can have the home turf advantage if you will simply prepare ahead of time with a plan of action. Criminals are not successful because they are smarter than their victims. Most criminals are not Mensa candidates. They are society's failures. They are successful at crime, however, because they had a plan, and their victims did not.

I started to say a grenade would trump a shotgun. Honestly though, if I were a home invader, I think I would rather take my chances with a grenade than a shotgun. Maybe if I trained twenty pet chimpanzees as ninjas.........

Rob62
September 19, 2006, 09:13 PM
The Ultimate home defense tool is definitely not a firearm at all.

Its organic and its called the human brain. :neener:

Edited to add - but my 870's make pretty good home defense tools. FWIW though I believe that overall a carbine length rifle chambered in .223/5.56mm with TAP or other quality ammunition makes a better long gun choice for HD. But that can be argued to no end.

Regards,
Rob

MrEG62U
September 19, 2006, 09:55 PM
i keep a mossberg 500 pump in my closet for home protection, but i also keep my .40 next to me also

torpid
September 19, 2006, 10:08 PM
The Ultimate home defense tool is definitely not a firearm at all.

Its organic and its called the human brain.



Would be nice, but they're outlawed here in CA.

.

Brass Fetcher
September 19, 2006, 10:11 PM
Short of a Claymore mine, there is nothing more effective than a shotgun. Even a 750gr Hornady A-Max in .50BMG does not compare to a 12 gauge 00 buck (in gelatin).

benEzra
September 20, 2006, 12:44 AM
Can anyone say with conviction that a shotgun is the ultimate home defense tool?
Possibly someone could say that for them, a shotgun is the ideal defensive tool.

Depends on your home layout, what you're proficient with, and such.

Exmasonite
September 20, 2006, 01:21 AM
there was another good thread about this recently:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=221990&page=2

the ole "Rifle vs Shottie" argument played the dead horse and us forum members proceeded to keep beating it :o

Gordon
September 20, 2006, 01:50 AM
1 oz of .73 caliber love delivered to every evil eye socket-everywhere less than 25 yards. Or a 3/4" remote control Irwin speed bore delivered to the COM to 100 meters on every crook!:evil:

MCgunner
September 20, 2006, 06:46 PM
I think if you're barricaded in your "safe room" (usually locked bedroom), the shotgun is excellent. However, if you're investigating a bump in the night, it's not the ultimate. A BG can jump you and easily disarm you where as if you're carrying a revolver of short dimensions, this is much tougher to do. I prefer my snubby .38 with my shotgun in the corner for if the BG breaks the door down. It's not a wise thing to go investigating bumps in the night, but you know we all do it. If you KNOW there's a BG out there, grab the shotgun, call 911, and wait. But, most of the time, the bump is nothing more than a dog or animal. I'll just put on my pants, grab my handgun, and go check.

This is my thinking on the subject, JMHO. I'm pretty confident in my abilities with either type of weapon. If you ain't too good with a handgun, perhaps the shotgun would get more weight in your decisions. I just don't like the idea of a BG being just around the corner in my little house and being laden with a shotgun length weapon at hand to hand distances. I'd rather have one hand with the weapon and the other to fend off the assault.

Quote:
The Ultimate home defense tool is definitely not a firearm at all.

Its organic and its called the human brain.




Would be nice, but they're outlawed here in CA.


BWAAAAA, HA, HA! ROFLMAO

Fred Fuller
September 20, 2006, 08:58 PM
A BG can jump you and easily disarm you where as if you're carrying a revolver of short dimensions, this is much tougher to do.
========================================

Not given proper training tactics. A handgun is actually an easier disarm if a BG gets hands on you because it is a lot easier to exercise leverage on the short gun. A shotgun in the hands of someone who knows how to use it means anyone who attempts a disarm is going to get a new nickname most rickytick- Stumpy.

lpl/nc

The Deer Hunter
September 20, 2006, 09:55 PM
9MM isnt the best self defence cartridge.

If you are going to use a pistol for HD i heard .40 S&W is good, although, i would prefer a .357 magnum.

But yea, i think a 12 GA is the best HS weapon.

B yond
September 21, 2006, 12:22 AM
The way I see it, a shotgun, pistol, and flashlight make a good combo for covering all bases.

Pistol and flashlight (Maglight) for investigating bumps in the night.
Not every bump in the night is something that can/should be solved with gunfire, many can be solved with a few good whacks of the maglight.:D If you do need to shoot someone/something at least you'll have the flashlight too so you can see your target, maybe even blind it while you take the shot. It's easier to maneuver through a house in the dark with a pistol than with most shotguns, and easier to shoot around walls.

Shotgun for protecting yourself and family if barricaded in a room.
The reasons I don't like rifles for indoor home defense are the potential for over-penetration and the deafening loudness. Sure, a 12ga. shotgun is loud, but they don't leave my ears ringing as long as most rifles do. I think in a home defense situation it would be very important to be able to hear. Besides that, a shotgun is easier (for most of us) to fire accurately under stress because we can point-and-shoot instead of worrying about cheek-weld and sight alignment.

Of course rifles have their advantages for outdoor applications, I just don't think most of them make good close-quarters weapons.

...just my $0.02

DRMMR02
September 21, 2006, 01:00 AM
I can say that a shotgun is the ultimate HD weapon if.......it's loaded with eXtreme shock rounds.

:)

Nematocyst
September 21, 2006, 03:38 AM
I think if you're barricaded in your "safe room" (usually locked bedroom), the shotgun is excellent. However, if you're investigating a bump in the night, it's not the ultimate. A BG can jump you and easily disarm you where as if you're carrying a revolver of short dimensions, this is much tougher to do. I prefer my snubby .38 with my shotgun in the corner for if the BG breaks the door down.As they used to say on THR in the old days, +1.

For me, the only difference is a 9mm instead of the .38. But that's a minor detail.

I sleep better at night behind my locked "bedroom" door knowing that 12 ga,
loaded with 00, is an arm's length away.

Should be a pounding sound on said door, that black dog could bark loudly.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=44624&d=1157789170

s&w 24
September 21, 2006, 04:53 AM
It's just a matter of the right tool for the job. To quote Massad Ayoob" the shot gun is the artillery and the handgun the infantry".

If you are in a fixed possition (and in HD I hope you are) the shotgun will take down foes with athority but is not so good for corners and manuvering. The handgun is less powerfull than a shotgun but is easly portable and better for being on the hunt so to speak.

I got a small smirk on my face when I found out that Massad Ayoob and Gabe Suarez both use a similar setup for there travel guns to mine and also for home use. A full sized hi cap SLP with a 20+ rnd mag and a mounted flashlight.

Thin Black Line
September 21, 2006, 10:51 AM
I forgot, if the perps are wearing body armor of any sort, the 223 will punch through it. Buckshot or slugs will not.

Short of wearing plates, including over his groin and face, a slug will have
no problem with the body-armored BG.

If the BG actually wants to plate himself, I'll wait until after he's sprawled
out on the floor huffing and puffing and unable to get back up after he's
attempted climbing through my window. That's if he doesn't sink to the
bottom of my moat first :D

MCgunner
September 21, 2006, 11:57 AM
Not given proper training tactics. A handgun is actually an easier disarm if a BG gets hands on you because it is a lot easier to exercise leverage on the short gun. A shotgun in the hands of someone who knows how to use it means anyone who attempts a disarm is going to get a new nickname most rickytick- Stumpy.

I call BS on this one. I fail to see how grabbin' a 2" J frame is easier than grabbin' a long gun. :rolleyes: There's very little to grab on a 2" J frame, that's why it's my favorite for home defense. I also feel quite well armed with it in my pocket during the day. You don't need no friggin' .50 BMG to stop an assault if you can put your shots on target.

As for caliber, 9 is EXCELLENT though .45 would be EXELLENTER. :D Nothing wrong with .40, but I wouldn't consider any .357 due to the flash bang indoors unless you have ear protection or are deaf anyway. 9 and .45 are bad enough.:rolleyes: My little J frame is a .38 special and I have all the confidence in it. When I'm checking on the bump in the night, I don't point it out in front of me, I stick it in my back pocket with my hand on it ready to draw if needed. My house is small, 1000 sq ft 2 bedroom, and the chances of getting jumped around a corner are a lot higher than if I had a 6000sq ft two story or something and it was a 100 yard shot across my living room/den. I can broad jump across my living room and I'm 54 years old.

Biker
September 21, 2006, 12:08 PM
Watch that Broadjumpin' in the living room, MCgunner. Last time I did it, I ended up with a wife and a kid.

Biker:uhoh:

Fred Fuller
September 22, 2006, 01:43 AM
Not to be argumentative, but two hands on a long gun 18" or two feet apart give much more leverage for retention than do two hands together on a handgun's single, one hand sized grip. Try it force on force and see. Reality is that a trained defensive shooter with either long gun or handgun is likely going to ding any skell that tries to get a hand on his or her weapon. But a long gun is easier to hang onto and actually easier to get into action IF the shooter is trained in proper movement with it and in retaining it. A good indoor ready position with a long gun by a shooter exercising proper movement techniques makes for a poor opportunity for a disarm without the attacker losing some feet in the process.

The hand or hands holding that 2" J frame are themselves vulnerable to a grab, especially if the snubbie is not held in a good close retention position (sul or #2 index). Not a lot of plain ordinary folks train and practice in handgun retention in force on force environments, any more so than John Q. Public long gun shooters do. Training and practice really does make a difference.

Regards,

lpl/nc

MTMilitiaman
September 22, 2006, 02:06 AM
I'd rate a shotgun with buckshot and slugs as infinately better than a handgun for defense, but still a bit behind a good rifle. I might eventually end up with a home defense shotgun, but for right now, I sleep just fine with a Romanian AK backed up with a Glock 20. If there is a pit bull, riots, aliens, zombies, zombie aliens, or any other civil disturbance, I would rather have an AK, AR, FAL, M14, ect than any shotgun you could hand me...but that might just be me.

If the dog starts barking at something, or I hear a garbage can tip over, or the motion lights come on and I have to investigate something, I am grabbing my Glock or the handgun of the day to check it out. If a window breaks I hear to door get kicked in, I am posting up in a hallway or stairwell with a carbine. Some people don't have the option of barracading themselves in a room. They have children that need to be protected, for example. In this case, a house may have to be searched. Sorry bub, I am using the carbine with a red dot sight. With a single point sling on it, you can grab ahold of it and try to get it away from me if you like. While you are distracted with a rifle muzzle that does you absolutely no good, I am going to be throwing a barrage of forceful flat hands to your nose, eye sockets, and temples, or punching you in the throat, kneeing you in the groin...whatever. The bottom line the that the rifle is attached to me, it isn't going anywhere, and there is no possible way you can make it point in any direction other than your own. I can let go of it with one or both hands to fend off any threat you present and still not have to worry about what you might do with my rifle. If the weapon is attached to you, weapon retention really takes care of itself.

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