Somali Weapons of Choice - AR-18's???


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Badger Arms
May 13, 2003, 01:14 AM
I'm currently watching a show on the History channel about Somalia. In the 'gee-whiz' shots these media types like to get of kids carrying guns, I noted something interesting. It seems that there are LOTS of SAR-80 rifles there. Yeah, most people have AK's of some sort but there are as many M-16's as there as SAR-80's. This is a near-direct copy of the AR-18 made with a license, IIRC to build the AR-18 itself. Has anybody here ever seen or handled one of these guns? Any available on the Class III market?

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200107/10/eng20010710_74565.html
http://www.commando.org/somalia/frustration.html

http://www.world.guns.ru/assault/sar80.jpg

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Sir Galahad
May 13, 2003, 01:39 AM
They probably got them via the Terrorist Lend-Lease from the IRA. At one time, the IRA had quite a sizeable collection of them. Who knows who was originally getting a hold of them and selling them under the table, but at one time, Howa of Japan was making them.

Dr.Rob
May 13, 2003, 04:34 AM
Careful, parts of that were recreated.

The first documentary that ran on Frontline called "The Battle of Mogadishu" featured all documentary footage.

What I noticed was all sorts of Soviet arms, and piles of G3's, also a Somali unwillingness to put the stock up to thier shoulders.

Scariest thing was 8-10 year old kids chewing qhat and carrying RPK's and RPG's.

Badger Arms
May 13, 2003, 12:29 PM
I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen statistics somewhere. Mostly AK's of course, but there were bunches of these SAR-80's around also. I'm not sure what the exact origins are. I am assuming that an arms dealer somewhere felt that the small statured (kids) people that were going to be carrying these would appreciate a light gun.

No, never seen the Frontline special. The one I saw featured exerpts and interviews with the author of Blackhawk Down. The footage was of Somali murderers who were showing off their guns. Every time I watch something on this it makes me sick. :fire: I wouldn't mind getting me a few of them 'war trophy' SAR-80's the old fashioned way. Of course, I'd probably have to go through several AK's, M-16's, G-3's and the like before I got the ones I wanted. Kinda like catch-and-release fishing.

Andrew Wyatt
May 13, 2003, 12:43 PM
the history channel has a habit of arming its reenactors with whatever's cheap and available, not necessarily what's correct.


their show on the incident with the seals at the panama airport had the seals armed with sks's, one ak, a solid rubber m16a1, and at least one PG 10-22.


in one of their blackhawkdown shows, they had one of the two snipers who went to help durant armed with one of those DPMS kitty kat 7 inch barrelled ar-15's with a telestock.

buzz_knox
May 13, 2003, 12:48 PM
The SAR-80 is a Singapore made rifle which incorporates elements of the AR-18, and M-16. I'm suprised to see that any of them are in Somalia. I didn't believe they were prevalent enough on the market.

Skunkabilly
May 13, 2003, 02:03 PM
If anything this is a good motivator...if a Somali can lug around a G3 then so can I! :D

My gun skul instructor calls me the 'Somali Weightlifter'... :o

Correia
May 13, 2003, 02:46 PM
SAR exports a lot of guns. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that several batches made their way to Africa.

Right now they are really pushing their SAR 21 and their Ultimax.

Razor
May 13, 2003, 04:35 PM
The one I saw featured exerpts and interviews with the author of Blackhawk Down. The footage was of Somali murderers who were showing off their guns. Every time I watch something on this it makes me sick

You ought to read Mike Durant's new book "In the Company of Heroes" (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0399150609/qid=1052854160/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/104-4822553-8024727) . The part when he gets captured will really get your blood boiling.

BTW, The Black Hawk Down (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00008YLV2/qid=1052854371/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-4822553-8024727?v=glance&s=dvd) 3-DVD Deluxe Edtion will contain both the History Channel Documentary and the PBS Frontline special. It'll be released on June 3rd.

Double Naught Spy
May 13, 2003, 07:14 PM
Suggesting the SAR or AR18 were weapons of choice is somewhat shortsighted. As noted, the Somalis had a variety of arms. What you were seeing were weapons of availability more so than weapons of choice.

The warlords often supplied weapons, ammo, food, and kot (sp?) to anyone willing to serve under them. The warlords supplied whatever was available to them via trade, sales, or capture. So there was hardly any sort of weapons standardization going on.

Now one thing that might be true and correspond with the weapons seen was that captured weapons were prized trophies. There is more status in having a trophy gun you took off somebody more than comes with a gun issued by your boss.

As for the murderous Somalis, don't be so quick to judge. They had made their wishes known long before that in regard to their sentiments to foreigners, especially Americans. There should be no surprise about what happened. A tremendous amount of the fault really has to go with the military planners who basically set up the operation just like the 20 before it and so the pattern of events was blatantly obvious and this is hardly a good thing for the US Soldiers. Next, they were limited in their rules of engagement. While a carrier was close by, they were not allowed to call in air support from fighters. There was a rescue contingency plan, but it was not adequate and the people engaged in the rescue has not been prepped for it. Too many of the soldiers in vehicles on the ground did not actually know how to navigate in the city even though they knew that roadways were often blocked and alternative routes would have to be used. The result there concerns the number of times the convoys got lost or had to back track. And lastly, some of the soldiers themselves treated the operation as a milk run, like previous milk runs, and they were not properly equipped for anything other than a milk run. This was shown in the movie very well when the soldier opted NOT to wear his 12 lb chicken plate and opted not to take water or full canteens of water. These guys had been shot at before and knew of other UN groups that had suffered casualties, and yet some of the folks rolled into the operation like it was a Sunday afternoon MILES scrimmage.

What the Somalis did was wrong in their treatment of our soldiers, but what they did is nothing new and nothing US soldiers haven't done over the years and you can darn sure count on that sort of treatment happening to unwanted armed invaders in the US. Heck, down here Bubba would hitch them up to the back of a truck and drag them down the road. The big difference with Somali is that it was not the aftermath that was shown, but the actual process of the mistreatment of the dead. And no doubt the footage was horrific, but the footage of such actions had a tremendous impact and effectivey forced Clinton into a change of American foreign policy.

Badger Arms
May 14, 2003, 12:28 AM
A war crime is a war crime. Americans who commit them are often (sadly not often enough) prosecuted. Third world actors who commit them are SELDOM prosecuted. Each and every war crime should be investigated and justice should be served where possible. War is bad enough but there are rules of armed conflict. We hold US soldiers to these, we should hold EVERY HUMAN to these. What's wrong with military courts and executions for those we caught on tape committing these crimes? We know who they are, they brag about it incessantly in Somalia.

Don't forget, most of the leadership for the Somalia debacle was provided by Bill Clinton. Hmmmm, let me quote:No government really rooted in limited, parliamentary democracy should have the power to make its citizens fight and kill and die in a war they may oppose, a war which even possibly may be wrong, a war which, in any case, does not involve immediately the peace and freedom of the nation. William Clinton, 03 December 1969. Letter to an ROTC Colonel.

atek3
May 14, 2003, 05:11 AM
No government really rooted in limited, parliamentary democracy should have the power to make its citizens fight and kill and die in a war they may oppose, a war which even possibly may be wrong, a war which, in any case, does not involve immediately the peace and freedom of the nation.

hate to sound like a hippy, but who here DISAGREES with that statement. that statement harkens back to classically liberal notions of "individual rights". One such right is not to be compeled by your government, at gun point no less, to go shoot at people whom may or may not be threatening America.


PS
Somalia is a pretty happening place nowadays;
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/parker1.html
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2001/05/maass.htm

w/o a central state their economy has been flourishing.

Badger Arms
May 14, 2003, 01:14 PM
hate to sound like a hippy, but who here DISAGREES with that statement. that statement harkens back to classically liberal notions of "individual rights". One such right is not to be compeled by your government, at gun point no less, to go shoot at people whom may or may not be threatening America.

Germany did not directly threaten the Peace of the United States. Italy did not directly threaten the Peace of the US. As for his oposition to the Draft, if somebody is not willing to fight for their country, they need to be forced to do so. There are certain limits to the utopian absolutism you suggest. One limitation is that any government MUST compel their people to fight and die and their people do not get to decide which cause is good and which cause is bad. We are NOT a democracy. We elect representatives to make these choices for us.

I disagre with the hippie mentality. Freedom has a price and EVERYBODY must be willing to pay. Dodging the draft is not a classic liberal philosophy, it is a planted fabrication that 60's and 70's instigators, spies, and Communist sympathizers drummed into the heads of LSD taking, dope smoking, mind numbed robots. Sure it all makes sense after a hit of ACID. The KGB had a well-orchestrated mission underway to warp the sentiments of the youth of America and it worked. Our former president bought into this and attempted to ruin the country with it. Draft dodges are cowards and criminals and should be forcibly enlisted into the infantry... first to charge in battle with freedom-loving volunteers behind them to make sure they don't desert. Think this is an outrageous view? Check your history.

Kaylee
May 14, 2003, 01:41 PM
Hey guys... cut out the draft debate here please.

Y'all want to go over it again, please hash it out in L&P. :)

-K

atek3
May 14, 2003, 02:10 PM
Draft dodges are cowards and criminals and should be forcibly enlisted into the infantry... first to charge in battle with freedom-loving volunteers behind them to make sure they don't desert. Think this is an outrageous view? Check your history.

:)
I believe it, its what COMMUNIST RUSSIA DID during the second world war.

Advocating the behavior of MOTHER RUSSIA, very progressive.
I'm sure stalin would be proud.

A Government that would compel you to fight at the barrel of a gun is not one worth fighting for. If this nation was attacked, true patriots would line up to defend it. Involuntary Servitude (aka the draft) wouldn't be nessasary.

atek3

PS hey mod, can you move this over to L&P, thanks.

Correia
May 14, 2003, 02:14 PM
No a Mod ain't going to move it. This was a Rifle thread. You want to argue the draft, take it over to L&P. Kaylee already told you so.

atek3
May 14, 2003, 02:34 PM
okay. i'm done.
sorry.

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