I know we've had recent paintball marker threads, but my needs may be a little different. I am looking for:
Power (even higher than 300 fps is okay)
Ability to use small CO2 cartridges
No need for high volume of fire
In a nutshell, I want a nonlethal standoff to use against local nationals climbing my perimeter wall. Response time from QRF/RRF is slower than I'm happy with, and if these young people can be forced down before getting inside, harsher measures won't be necessary.
Some towers have been using thrown rocks! Unfortunately, one child caught a rock in the back of the head in the last couple days. No good.
Also, pepper ball suppliers, while not essential, would be useful.
Thanks in advance,
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September 21, 2006, 04:52 AM
How about any of the products from these guys http://rap4.com/ :)
September 21, 2006, 05:23 AM
I found this pretty fast. Gun designed for pepper balls and pepper balls to shoot. Same company, never heard of them, don't know much about them. Seems to fit your purpose though.
Peppergun and Pepperammo (http://www.pepperammo.com/index.php)
September 21, 2006, 08:05 AM
A marker that looks like a firearm would be a negative for my purposes. It must also be able to fire regular paintballs.
September 21, 2006, 11:17 AM
And plus while it's all very cool in situations where milsim looks are king, that RAP stuff is finicky at best and lacking in range due to using paintballs 2/3 the size of normal paintballs.
An old-fashion pump gun might be your best bet, a Sheridan P68SC would probably be ideal.
It would run off 12g CO2 cartidges (disposable), be amazingly dependable, and as accurate at paintball guns get.
Let me look around and get back to you.
Stay safe out there,
September 21, 2006, 11:29 AM
Thanks. Some guards are using "wrist rocket" sling shots, but I can't see doing that.
September 21, 2006, 02:18 PM
This is going to sound stupid, but bear with me.
Why are the kids climbing the walls?
September 21, 2006, 02:57 PM
Because they're children, and their parents don't do their damn job. (Then, when SOG and a 'terp are finally called out, the adults lie and say the towers have been throwing sodas and snacks to the kids.) Also because there are usually few consequences to them, since soldiers aren't supposed to be leaving their posts in the tower.
Please understand that we are also supposed to be facing a high # of suicide bombers soon. If we have to respond to a child, that means troops won't be available for somewhere else.
Also understand that these children throw rocks in a heartbeat, usually for heinous reasons like not paying attention to them, or just because they're bored and lack adequate supervision.
September 21, 2006, 03:24 PM
i would look at a tippmann 98
or the fn 303
both are police riot control standards but they are bulk CO2 tank fed
Hit some little bugger in the eye with any of this and the consequences could be catastrophic.
Won't the brass authorize the use of CS?
September 22, 2006, 11:57 AM
Well, shooting at civilians with anything is a tricky set of waters to tread. Especially kids.
Me, I'd just as soon use a Big Ass Spotlight (tm) or even one of those hand held three candlepower dealies you can get from any sporting goods store. Nothing like a big 400 lumen "hey, you!" to get people scrambling out of where they don't belong.
Otherwise, you may want to look into one of the Splatmatic products, specifically the pump shotgun. It'll throw a paintball a good distance and requires NO co2 cartridges, just rack and fire like a normal shotgun. Trouble is, it uses strange .50 cal paintballs.
If you want to go .68 cal, Brass Eagle makes a ton of products that take normal 12 gram catridges, including the Talon and Blade, both pump markers. Available at a Wally World near you. .68 cal ammo is the easiest to find. Brass Eagle also makes a 12 gram adapter that lets you use 12 gram cartridges in any gun meant to take big paintball tanks. Then you can get a Tippman model 98 or similar with a long barrel and wind the power up if you like. You can beat the snot out of M98's and they'll run forever. No idea how many shots you'll get out of a 12 gram. Probably about 20.
RAP makes some interesting playthings, but unfortunately their RAP17 pistol is out of production at the moment. They're supposedly making a paintball SIG, too. Both take .43 cal paintballs, orderable only from them.
Still, I'd think about non-projectile means of enticing the buggers to go away. Big spotlight, big bullhorn, or at most firing a flare over their heads or something. Shooting at people is likely to garner bad press, get them pissed off at you, and probably make the brass angry and get you into trouble.
September 22, 2006, 01:53 PM
Thanks for the suggestions.
This is happening in daylight. They do not always respond to demands over loudspeakers to unass my wall.
The problem is, the "powers that be" will be reluctant to okay anything...because brass is that way. On the other hand, the Sergeants of the Guards are telling us "Do what you gotta do- just don't draw blood."
Really, I appreciate that you want to help, but you think firing pyrotechnics is going to be okay? And you'd think throwing rocks- or using a high-powered slingshot on children (which other guards are doing)- would be better than hitting them with a paintball! I don't agree.
And, hell- let me pull my soapbox up. Piss people off?! These people are already pissed off! They live in a crappy country with an occupying force 80 meters from their homes. This is the politics of hate at its best. If you have nothing, you're easily persuaded that it's someone else's fault, and since you have nothing, you have little to live for. Suicide fodder.
*I don't care* if the little buggers are "pissed" at me, as long as they get the hell off my wall. My first priority when standing post is to defend the camp. The enemy here is sick enough to strap a load of explosives onto a kid and send him over my wall, forcing some of my people to physically apprehend him, at which point he could go kaboom! If I can rapidly force kids back down- warn, then pop with marker if necessary- more active means won't be necessary. That would be good.
I'm all ears for this "something" that's going to keep local national children from climbing my walls. In the real world, people cease and desist because bad things happen to them. Zapping a kid with something that I've taken deliberately is something I can be comfortable with. I really don't mean to sound uptight about this, so if you can suggest a real solution, I'll be happy to listen.
September 22, 2006, 02:40 PM
Maybe installing something pointy in strategic locations? Requisition some barbed wire, if you can. Martha Stewart would complain about the Soviet look, but it keeps the blighters off of your stuff.
Another idea is to see if you can beg, borrow, or steal some simunitions. Big bang, big sting. That'll learn 'em.
September 22, 2006, 11:40 PM
Y'all don't have razor wire up around the tops of the walls?
I don't know a thing about paintball guns so I can't help you there, but how about putting some kind of irritant like cayanne pepper or shreded fiberglass on the wall where they put their little hands? It wouldn't take many of them getting burnt eyes and such for word to get out amongst them that climbing the wall is not worth the trouble.
Stay safe out there, and thanks for doing that job.
September 24, 2006, 04:22 PM
A roll of razor wire will discourage the curious. 2-3 (or more) rolls will discourage all but the very motivated, and history has shown us that they don't often travel far afterwards unless they had substantial protective gear on. At the very least it will hold someone up long enough to allow the tower personnel to identify them and select an appropriate course of action.
There are some effective less lethal options for 40mm and 12G weapons that I'm assuming you already have access to. If you'd like, I can get you information for specific suppliers. Most of them don't seem to do business with individuals...perhaps your unit could order some stuff so that folks aren't paying for it out of their own pockets? I know the things are already in the supply system.
For the paintball option, read up on "Flatline" barrels a bit. They didn't revolutionize the sport like some thought they would but for your needs, it might be a good choice. Most of the rental markers on the fields around here (that work, anyway) are bare bones Tippmans -- make what you will of that.
You guys don't have access to flashbangs, do you? That'll learn 'em not to play on the walls. :D
Sorry to hear of your troubles.
September 25, 2006, 03:00 AM
I agree about the concertina. We are supposed to be pushing our Hesco barrier walls out, enlarging the camp, so they're not putting any more wire out for now.
We don't have any special munitions at this point, just M855 and tracer ammo. No flash-bangs, smoke or gas grenades, or even regular frags.
November 29, 2006, 12:03 AM
Paintball in Baghdad
Why some soldiers are armed with nonlethal ammo
By Matthew Cox
Think of it as a super-charged paintball gun. That’s what some soldiers in Iraq are toting these days to deal with troublemakers on the streets of Baghdad. But there’s nothing fun about being on the receiving end of the FN 303 Less Lethal System. The semi-automatic launcher shoots a .68 caliber projectile at 300 feet per second using compressed air. The fin-stabilized projectiles have an effective range out to 100 meters.
It’s not designed to kill, but it packs a potent sting.
The intent, Army officials say, is to give soldiers an option other than deadly ammo for deterring instigators from causing civil unrest.
Army instructors at the Non Lethal Scalable Effects Center at Fort Leonard Wood, Mo., offer training on the 303, which is made by FNH USA, as do Marine Corps instructors at Leonard Wood’s Inter-service Nonlethal Individual Weapons Instructor Course.
The Army has been using the 303 in Iraq for about three years, mainly for military police. But lately, infantry units are carrying it, too, in addition to their M4s and M16s.
“Our unit is using them especially on cars that get too close to our convoys,” a soldier with the 172nd Stryker Brigade Combat Team told Army Times. The soldier preferred that his name not be published.
The 172nd’s 12-month deployment was extended in August to help quell increased violence in Baghdad. Elements of the highly mobile Stryker brigade were then sent to Iraq’s strife-torn capital.
“We were not using [the 303] in Mosul,” the soldier noted. “Only since we arrived in Baghdad were they issued to the squads.”
Just one or two soldiers out of a nine-man squad are carrying 303s. Still, some soldiers expressed concern that using a nonlethal weapon can limit a unit’s capabilities in an area where anything can happen at any time.
Another soldier, who also chose not to be identified, said he “was taught that the primary reason for employing this weapon system was to combat the rock throwers in Sadr City.” But he said most rock-throwers are kids who lob stones at passing American vehicles about 10 feet, a distance the soldier said can make the 303 lethal if the projectile strikes the target’s head.
“A better idea is the Mossberg 12-gauge [shotgun] for two reasons — you can a load a nonlethal round first up by lethal rounds, so that you can shoot a nonlethal and then immediately follow up with double 0 or a slug” if necessary, the soldier said. “Plus, if you can’t use lethal means, at least you are giving the impression that you have control of a lethal weapon.”
Army officials would not comment on the specific tactics soldiers are using to employ the 303.
Col. John Koster, project manager for Close Combat Systems, said the 303 is mainly being used by MPs, but “we are starting to look at more of a tactical scenario.”
FNH USA officials said the intent behind the 303 is to give soldiers a nonlethal option to use before going straight to deadly force. It’s designed to allow troops to “get outside the rock-throwing range and Molotov cocktail range and still employ the system,” said D.T. Thornburg, director of military programs and integration for FNH USA.
Thornburg served 13 years on active duty with the Marine Corps and is a master sergeant in the Maine Reserve. He also recently spent nine months in Iraq, working as a protective services contractor for the State Department.
He did not use the 303 in Iraq but knows that in many cases, U.S. troops armed with M16s and crew-served weapons can do nothing to deter a violent crowd.
“A lot of times, if you point a rifle or pistol at them, they know you are not going to fire into a crowd,” he said.
Thornburg said he wasn’t sure how many 303s are in use in Iraq but said that this year, FNH had shipped about 1,000 of them to Iraq. The 303 is not yet an official Army weapon, so individual units are ordering them directly from FNH.
One of the soldiers from the 172nd acknowledged that “every [squad] member also has an M4, but depending on the mission, it may or may not be immediately available to his discretion.”
Soldiers are carrying the 303 as a stand-alone weapon, and at times, mounting them beneath the M4 in the same way a M203 grenade launcher is mounted. That way, a soldier can decide to fire a lethal round or a nonlethal one by simply picking which trigger to pull.
The 303 is equipped with a 15-round magazine and can fire projectiles designed purely for impact trauma or those laced with Oleoresin capsicum “[pepper] concentrate,” which not only hurts when it hits, but also causes a severe burning sensation to the skin.
It also fires paint-filled projectiles intended for marking instigators in a crowd so soldiers can clearly identify against whom to use deadly force if necessary.
To Thornburg, the 303 could eliminate the time soldiers have to spend shouting to one another, “ ‘Do you see him?! Does he have a weapon?!’ — All that is wasted time unless you have another means,” he said.
“If there is a vehicle or people moving towards friendly forces, and you engage them with a nonlethal weapon and they have articulated their intent that they are going to take the pain and close with you, this person has been marked so he can be effectively engaged instead of having to yell out, ‘It’s the guy in the black coat.’”
The Army hopes to bring the FN 303 into the service’s inventory by the end of this year, Koster said, adding that The Infantry Center at Fort Benning, Ga., is looking at different scenarios in which the weapon could be employed.
But those soldiers from the 172nd aren’t convinced that an infantry unit is a good place for the 303.
“There is no reason to be completely up in arms because lethal means are still available, but to me, this is still unacceptable,” one of the soldiers said. “My comrades and I agree that two sides could argue the pros and cons on and on, but the bottom line is, at this point in this conflict or war ... there are serious issues with the equation of winning the support of the people of Iraq.
“We don’t know what to say is the right thing to do so long as leaving is not an option. But we know for sure that paintball guns, attached to an M4 or not, is not the answer to quelling sectarian violence.”
Thornburg said soldiers should never be in a situation in which they don’t have lethal force available to take it to the next level.
“Whether he realizes it or not, it’s a far-reaching decision if a soldier or operator engages someone who is not presenting a lethal threat,” he said.
Political and social ramifications aside — “when you do harm, whether you are justified or not, it stays with you,” Thornburg said. “This is another step in the escalation of force that a soldier does not have to seek permission to use. He doesn’t have to hesitate any more than he would have to hesitate to shout at someone.”
November 29, 2006, 09:56 AM
Thanks for the article Harry!
That was a good read.
November 29, 2006, 06:27 PM
Anyone tried a boat horn yet? The portable air cylinder kind? It wouldn't do much good once the LNs figgered out it was just noise, but it might work a time or two.
How about a combo of a laser marker and a good paintball gun? Dot in front of them for a warning, SPLAT if they don't take the warning.
The pepperball stuff seems to be accurate for point targets only to about 30 feet (area targets to 100'), and it ain't cheap ( http://www.eliteguns.com/Pepperball/ ).
Anyone else doing this sort of stuff near you? I'll be talking to someone from the SASC at Bagram this week, I'll ask him if he knows anything about the sort of stuff you're looking for.
Hang in there,
November 29, 2006, 07:16 PM
Just wait until you pop one of those kids in the eye and lose everything you own in a lawsuit.
I know that sounds anti, but at least hear me out:
I've played professional paintball for 6 years now (the type you see on ESPN, not playing in the woods). I've been on ESPN multiple times and in a few TV commericials for Tippmann when I played on their factory team.
I fought the same fight we all fight now for 'gun rights,' only I was fighting for paintball gun rights. I got it approved at our highschool as a club sport and all that.
With that being said, liability is HUGE with firing a paintball at somebody climbing a fence. With my background in the sport and seeing multiple lawsuits go to the offender (the climber), I do not recommend it. On top of that, paintball guns are not accurate enough to not worry about shooting some kid in the eye.
To stay on topic, if you want a good, cheap, reliable gun buy a Tippmann 98. No PB gun shoots any farther or more accurate than the other. The 98 will serve your purpose, though I'm against it.
November 29, 2006, 10:32 PM
check out JShirley's location...
November 30, 2006, 10:57 AM
check out JShirley's location...
Ahhh.... I missed that part. Sorry to clutter the thread.
I still advise against using a paintball gun. I've been playing for years and have been a part of the top team in the nation and I still don't trust the PB guns to be accurate enough for me to shoot at somebody without eye protection. It is a sport item, not something to scare off people causing mischief.
November 30, 2006, 11:26 AM
I have another one for you:
Research the Madbull XMPB4 (http://www.madbullairsoft.com/English/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=14), especially if you have some spare cash or can requisition fundage for such a beast. It will fit in a 'fake' M203 Launcher (http://www.madbullairsoft.com/English/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=21) and is designed to hold four (count 'em) standard .68 caliber paintballs, which it launches with tremendous force, especially when filled with CO2 with Madbull's inexpensive CO2 Adapter (http://www.madbullairsoft.com/English/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=9) instead of the usual airsoft green gas.
I bought one of these for my airsoft rig and even using propane/green gas had having essentially no barrel that trucker will throw all four paintballs a good 40-50 yards. Also, since it's barrel is just a .68 cal hollow tube instead of oodles of little 6mm barrels like traditional airsoft grenades, with the application of a little TP for wadding it'll fire whatever you stuff into it. BB's? Dried peas? A handfull of cut tacks? A 3" length of 5/16" dowel with the end drilled out and filled with cast lead (ouch)...?
Plus, it makes a pretty startling "bang!" when it's fired (especially compared to a regular paintball gun) and the launcher can be mounted right to the bottom RIS on your M4 or M16.
You might even be able to load it into a real '203 launcher, but you'd have to fire it manually since there's a hole in the "thwack valve" on the end of the grenade that the firing pin would sail right through. You can set the grenade off by pressing the valve firmly with your finger, though.
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