Kel-Tec P-11 or Taurus P-111


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Goodshot
September 23, 2006, 04:52 PM
There are 2 9mm's in my local gun shop. I think one of them has my name on it. I've had a Kel-Tec P-11 before. I kind of kick myself for trading it off. Now I see another for a good price ($160). But right next to it is a Taurus P-111 that really feels nice. They are really about the same size and weight. The Kel-Tec warranty can't be beat. I've read the threads on both but don't know which, if any, I should go with.... any help ? Thanks, Goodshot.

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Baldy
September 23, 2006, 05:23 PM
I just bought a P3AT last week and I am having a blast with it. It swallows WWB like there's no tomorrow. I ran some Magtec GG through and I had 2 FTE in six mags. Oh well I am happy with it. It still needs about 200rds run through it to break it in.:)

bigmike45
September 23, 2006, 05:44 PM
I have never shot a PT-111, but I have a KelTec P-11 and a Taurus PT-145. In shootability and comfort, even shooting .45acp, the Taurus PT-145 wins hands down. I still carry the KelTec from time to time and it is my bedside, go-to gun. I have a small holster strapped around the bedpost and covered by my robe to hold it there, within easy reach for anything that goes bump in the night. Had I shot the PT-111 before the KelTec......who knows what would have been my BUG back then.

Wilson 17&26
September 23, 2006, 07:48 PM
The P-11 weighs 14oz without a magazine and Kel-Tec now sells a flush fitting 12-round magazine (same size as the 10-round). With a carry gun theses are important factors. How do these factors compare to the Taurus P-111 which is beside it?

pocketgun
September 23, 2006, 08:01 PM
PT-111 = 6.125" x 5.125" x 1.125" 18.7oz 12+1

LINK (http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=24&category=Pistol)

Devonai
September 23, 2006, 10:04 PM
I'm in the same boat as Bigmike45, although I no longer own a P11. My PT145 is larger than the P11 but it is still a very small pistol and I have no trouble carrying it in a large pocket or IWB.

I have nothing against the P11 except for the trigger. Mine functioned flawlessly but the trigger pull tired me out quickly, especially in cold weather. The ability to take 12, 15, 17, or even 20 round S&W magazines is nice.

Unless pocket carry is essential to you, I would go for the larger PT111 SA/DA.

Poser_Pilot6
September 23, 2006, 10:34 PM
I own a Taurus 111 Millenium Pro. I love it. Its actually DAO, Devonai. But other than that, its a great weapon. It shoots pretty nice groups offhand, and I could shoot it all day. Its comfortable to hold, even though I have large hands. Ive ran maybe 1000 rounds through it, and never had an issue with failure. I have a DeSanti IWB holster for it, and its easy to carry. Thats been my experience with it. I have never shot the Kel Tec, my cousin has whatever the .380 Kel Tec is, and that is a nice little gun. Either way you go, you will have a good gun, I would imagine. What was the price on the Taurus, by the way?


Dave

Goodshot
September 23, 2006, 11:12 PM
Okay, so here I am again, about 7 or 8 hours later. Maybe a little bit better informed. I went back to the gunshop and looked both of them over...real good. The Taurus turned out to be just a Millenium- not the Pro. It seems they had a few problems with the first Millenium series, but got them figured out, and now produce the pro series. I was able to talk the gun shop into letting me test fire the Taurus and I ran a box of my reloads through it without a hitch. It shoots just like it should. They want $239 for it, which is very hard to turn down. But, there is no box, no extra mag, no internal lock key, just the pistol with a 10 round mag.
That being said, I asked what they could do on a new Millenium Pro, and he quoted me $349. So for $100 more I get the new "improved" version, with the box and a key, etc.
The Kel-Tec is still there, and I might still bite. It does not have a brushed chrome slide like the Taurus. But it's only $169....
I have several other handguns. My primary carry is a Kahr PM40. I also have a Sig 229 and 220. My pocket gun is a Kel-tek P-3AT. So you see, I am just looking to fill my 9mm niche. I had an XD-9 and liked it. Traded it for my Sig 229. I just love to trade.. This has just been another fun day of getting to know just what it is I'm trying to get into. I will probably just give this one back and keep looking. The Kel-tec PF-9 is just about on the shelves, so I might wait for it. ..... But the Millenium series looks nice too !!! Decisions..

ecureed
September 23, 2006, 11:28 PM
Poser, Devonai was correct also about the PT111 being SA/DA....depends on which model you have....if the slide reads Millenium Pro then you have the DAO version....if your slide reads Millenium on one side and PT 111 Pro on the other, then you have the new SA/DA version....just thought I'd interject that, it has been discussed at length here on THR

Devonai
September 23, 2006, 11:56 PM
Thanks :D

Poser_Pilot6
September 24, 2006, 12:32 AM
Ah ha! I was unaware that they made such a creature. The only ones I have seen have all been DAO. I got my Taurus for $339 in AZ about a year and a half ago, which I thought was a pretty good price for a nice little gun. That Kel Tec sure is low priced, though...

weregunner
September 24, 2006, 03:38 AM
Have a PT111 Millenium pro. Have had no trouble of any kind and like the gun a lot. Had the older Millenium model to begin with and upgraded to the Pro model. Feeding of hardball was 100%,but would feed very few JHP brands since the feed ramp was short. Wanting 100% with all JHPs, I aquired the Millenium Pro model.All the brand name JHPs have feed successfully through the Pro model. Shot much better with the newer trigger. Now for the question. Since you are familiar with the Kel-tec and were satisfied with it why not buy a new Kel-tec? Which ever model you are more comfortable with that should be the choice. Good luck on your choice.

kokapelli
September 24, 2006, 11:36 AM
The "PT111 Pro" has a single action trigger that is far superior to the DAO P-11 trigger.

The slide is stainless steel, not brushed chrome.

I have owned both, the P-11 and the PT111 Pro and would take the PT111 pro with it's single action trigger over the P-11 without a second thought.
-
http://www.wtv-zone.com/jnib/images/ktog/PT111_2.jpg

MCgunner
September 24, 2006, 12:15 PM
Both excellent guns, which ever you like to shoot. I much prefer the P11 because of the DAO trigger and slightly smaller dimensions for pocket carry, that's what I own, carry, and shoot. The KT is 100 percent for me and very accurate. I also like KTs customer service, or the idea of it. I haven't actually used it, but I hear great things about it. I DO wish they offered a stainless slide and barrel.

I like Taurus firearms. I own two revolvers that ain't goin' nowhere, they are keepers. One's a very nice little M85UL in .38 special that does pocket duty when I'm not in an autoloader mood. It IS in stainless/alloy frame. Rugged little gun. When I bought my KT, the PT111 hadn't come out yet, was 10 years or so ago. I'd have given it much consideration had it been introduced, yet. I wanted a subcompact DAO 9 and looked at the only two available at the time, the P11 and the Kahr K9. Both were new companies and I took the chance on the P11. I have not been sorry. It's a good shooting little pocket powerhouse and very comfortable to carry all day long.

kokapelli
September 24, 2006, 02:26 PM
fishor_cutbait06, it's not a DAO/SA!

It is a SINGLE ACTION trigger that will revert to double action only when and if there is a failure to fire or you pull the trigger on an empty chamber.

In nother words, When you chamber a round,the pistol is in SA mode, period!

There is no decocker.

torpid
September 24, 2006, 03:04 PM
As stated above, NEW PT-111s are SA.

Man, Taurus really needed to rename each rev of the Millenniums.

.

kokapelli
September 24, 2006, 03:17 PM
fishor_cutbait06, if the trigger is cocking the striker, that is not one of the new production "PT111 Pro" pistols.

It is probably from the pre- single action production "Millennium Pro" pistols.

The trigger action was changed to SA on the latest production.

If you look at the picture of my PT111 Pro, in a preceeding post, you will see just "PT111 Pro" on the right side of the slide.

"Millennium appears alone on the left side of the slide.

The new SA trigger is much shorter and smoother, but should only be carried "cocked and locked".

IMO, jst like a Glock or Kahr, etc, the DAO PT111 does not need to be carried with the safety on, but you are giving up a much better trigger for not having to use the safety.

Dr.magnum
September 24, 2006, 04:08 PM
I've never seen used Kel Tec's for less then $199. around here. Go for the bargain before someone else snaps it up.

pocketgun
September 24, 2006, 06:32 PM
I much prefer the P11 because of the DAO trigger and slightly smaller dimensions for pocket carry, that's what I own, carry, and shoot. The KT is 100 percent for me and very accurate. I also like KTs customer service, or the idea of it. I haven't actually used it, but I hear great things about it. I DO wish they offered a stainless slide and barrel.

Actually, they DID offer a stainless slide and barrel 1996-1998 - I have one. A friend on another board just bought one on gunbroker.com.

LINK (http://www.ktrange.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=5657) to thread with pic.

MCgunner
September 24, 2006, 07:35 PM
fishor_cutbait06, if the trigger is cocking the striker, that is not one of the new production "PT111 Pro" pistols.

It is probably from the pre- single action production "Millennium Pro" pistols.

The trigger action was changed to SA on the latest production.

If you look at the picture of my PT111 Pro, in a preceeding post, you will see just "PT111 Pro" on the right side of the slide.

"Millennium appears alone on the left side of the slide.

The new SA trigger is much shorter and smoother, but should only be carried "cocked and locked".

IMO, jst like a Glock or Kahr, etc, the DAO PT111 does not need to be carried with the safety on, but you are giving up a much better trigger for not having to use the safety.


Then, by the sound of this, I'd much prefer the revolver-like safe pocket carry of the DAO Kel Tec. I don't want no striker fired SAs riding in my pants pocket carried condition one! Just as with the Raven, the Davis P380, the much higher quality AMT Backup, or any striker fired single action, it'd only be safe to carry condition three IMHO. This is WHY they make DAO pocket guns in the first place. I'm hoping they at LEAST have a firing pin block trigger design. Even AMT eventually built a DAO gun realizing the safety issues of a striker fired pocket gun.

A DAO trigger is NOT a "bad" trigger, it is a DIFFERENT trigger and requires learning/training yourself to control. I've seen PPC shooters that were amazingly accurate and NEVER shot SA EVER. That's the whole idea of PPC revolver shooting, after all. If you cannot or will not master the DA, that doesn't mean it isn't a better system for those that have mastered it. It is a safer design to carry, less chance of blowing your family jewels off when pocket carrying. Safety may be "in the head", but if you cannot or will not learn to use a DA trigger, why would you put the time in to learn safe gun handling and train yourself in such? Both require practice and training after all. And, even with proper gun handling, I don't want a striker cocked and locked over a live round in my pocket.

Pocketgun, they must have run the stainless ones just after I bought mine! Dangit! I never knew it was offered. I much prefer stainless guns for the durability. My P11 is leather worn, but I keep it in good shape. It may look a little worn, but it shoots great!

Here is the Taurus I'd go for.... http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?model=111B&category=Pistol However, it says "status discontinued".

pocketgun
September 25, 2006, 05:32 AM
The AMT Backup SA has a grip safety and a manual safety - In all the time I carried it, the manual safety never got brushed off in a pocket or elsewhere. I personally think the fear of striker fired pocket pistols dates to the age of the Raven, Lorcin, Jennings, and Davis. People carried good quality pocket pistols (Colt Vest Pocket, Browning Baby, Walther Model 5, etc.) for decades without enough problems to force the mfgs to discontinue manufacture. I still have my Backup SA on my carry permit, by my P-3AT just offers a better carry for the same (actually better, 1 more round) protection.

Jamie C.
September 25, 2006, 08:01 AM
I've owned both a "regular" Taurus PT-111 Millennium and a stainless Millennium Pro. Both DAO.

Never had the first malfunction with either of 'em, and both shot like this, even with the long double-action triggers:
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d42/DrakeCaminus/PT111.jpg
( And yes, I should have left that at an 8 shot group. :rolleyes: )

Now granted, I did cut 2 coils off the striker spring on both of 'em, making the trigger pull significantly lighter, but even without that alteration they were both extremely accurate.

So, since I don't have any phobias concerning SA, striker-fired guns, and since I've never owned a Kel-Tec, the Taurus is the one I'd buy if I were in the market for a small plastic-framed 9mm.


J.C.

pocketgun
September 25, 2006, 09:42 AM
My P11 is leather worn, but I keep it in good shape. It may look a little worn, but it shoots great!

That is what it is for: to carry, not to sit in a safe. Eezox it and it won't rust, or get it refinished eventually. :)

MCgunner
September 25, 2006, 01:13 PM
Yeah, I looked into sending the slide for a Robar finish once and never did it. Good idea, though, and might do that eventually. I hear that NP3 finish is pretty tough to beat short of titanium or stainless. Actually, somewhere I read it was BETTER than stainless, but I find that hard to believe. Finishes eventually wear off on the edges.

Pocketgun, did they have as many tort lawyers in 1920 as they have now? Heck, they used to carry single actions that required loading five with one under the hammer empty. They USED to do a lot of things and if you blew your cojones off, oh, well. LOL! It was a different, and I'll argue better, time. I think Darwin ruled a little more and stupid genes got weeded out back then a little better. The grip safety is a good thing, though, IMHO. With that and especially with a firing pin block, the AMT is probably a safe enough gun for condition one. But, reading about any striker fired gun in about any magazine and the writer will always caution to carry it condition three in a pocket. I sorta think that's a good idea myself. But, if you don't have qualms about it, hey, it's your cojones. :D

That Taurus group just shows ya what a good DA CAN do with a good shooter. My P11 puts 'em into 3.5 inches to point of aim at 25 yards and I can mow down 6" plates all day at that range off hand. Don't get a lot better than that, but you do have to be able to shoot DA. It ain't that tough, just takes a little dedication and practice at first.

KI4LIV
September 25, 2006, 04:55 PM
The Kel-Tec was NOT offered with a stainless slide - it was HARD CHROMED.

alamo
September 25, 2006, 04:58 PM
The Kel-Tec was NOT offered with a stainless slide - it was HARD CHROMED.

It was offered in stainless steel back around 1997-98 but the hard chrome replaced it. This was the P-11 only.

pocketgun
September 25, 2006, 07:05 PM
Pocketgun, did they have as many tort lawyers in 1920 as they have now? Heck, they used to carry single actions that required loading five with one under the hammer empty. They USED to do a lot of things and if you blew your cojones off, oh, well. LOL! It was a different, and I'll argue better, time. I think Darwin ruled a little more and stupid genes got weeded out back then a little better. The grip safety is a good thing, though, IMHO. With that and especially with a firing pin block, the AMT is probably a safe enough gun for condition one. But, reading about any striker fired gun in about any magazine and the writer will always caution to carry it condition three in a pocket. I sorta think that's a good idea myself. But, if you don't have qualms about it, hey, it's your cojones.

Thing is, I have never ever personally met someone who had a quality striker-fired pocket pistol go off in a pocket inadvertently; nor have I read an actual report of it happenening anywhere. I think the whole argument is another gunwriter-inspired myth - at least for quality weapons. I have not forgotten believing that the Browning Baby I carried stoked with 7 rounds of MagSafe .25ACP was a 50% One Shot Stopper in "actual street shootings", etc. - more nonsense I bought into because I read it in a gun magazine and thought it was factual. (I know, I was younger and dumber back then.) Gun mags will tell you whatever they feel like to sell their advertiser's products, be it fancy ammo with magic bullets or modern double action pistols. Truth is, I would be way more concerned about getting the drawstring and cordlock of a windbreaker caught in a holster with my Glock than having my Colt Vest Pocket, Browning Baby, or AMT Backup SA somehow going off of its own accord while riding in my pocket in condition one. (Hasn't stopped me from carrying a Glock, BTW.) I would also be more afraid of getting killed by a BG while having to use two hands to rack a slide.

pocketgun
September 25, 2006, 07:08 PM
It was offered in stainless steel back around 1997-98 but the hard chrome replaced it. This was the P-11 only.

Yes, it replaced the Electroless Nickel model of 1995 (first year of P-11 production) and was replaced by the Hard Chrome model in 1999. Blued models have been in production since 1995, Parkerized since 1997.

MCgunner
September 25, 2006, 08:58 PM
I know a guy who's Raven shot him in the leg. I don't know what caused it, but had that gun been carried condition three, that wouldn't have happened. Of course, that was a Raven after all.

But, I don't like striker fired pocket guns and will continue to prefer double action. When I was much younger and CCW was illegal in Texas, I carried a tiny little POS RG 25. Now, this little gun wasn't terribly accurate past 15 feet, but it fed just fine, never jammed with that Winchester pellet nose stuff. I carried it in my back pocket in a home made holster made to look like a wallet. A rear jeans pocket devoured it. I had sense enough then to figure out I was safer carrying that thing condition three. Took milliseconds to rack the slide. I'm glad I don't have to resort to such a carry gun anymore. LOL!

I don't care for Glock "safe actions" either for pocket carry or even IWB without the 8 lb trigger mod. I don't carry Glocks, prefer DA/SA IWB or DAO pocket carry. I have carried a 1911 condition one on the hip, though. I had it in a thumb snap holster with the strap in front of the hammer, but I wouldn't feel unsafe with a series 80 IWB in a Sparks Summer Special. It has enough redundant safeties and a good track record. Like anything else, it requires training to use and since I like revolvers so much and since revolvers and SA autos are significantly different in manual of arms, I just prefer to carry a DA gun now days. Pull the trigger and it goes bang, no matter if it's one of my revolvers or one of my autos. Everyone has their preferences for one reason or another. I just prefer the inherent safety of the DA gun to go along with good training. Makes me feel better and I shoot DA just fine. I wouldn't be a customer for that Taurus now that it's a striker fired single action, nope, not me.

Hypnogator
September 26, 2006, 01:18 AM
I would definitely go for the Taurus. I have a PT-145 Millennium Pro that I love, which I bought to replace my Kel-Tec P-11 after the third time it physically b-r-o-k-e while firing. :cuss: :cuss: :cuss:

pocketgun
September 26, 2006, 02:41 AM
MCgunner: yeah, the Raven doesn't count on my "quality" list - the safety is just too easily wiped off in a pocket. Doesn't surprise me that you have heard of an accident with one. TxCajun (a member on this board) once had the safety on his Davis .380 come off in his pocket, and a friend had the same thing happen with a Jennings J-22. I wouldn't want to carry any, especially in condition one.

I too now carry DA autos with my P-3AT and P-40. I like not having to manipulate a safety in a crisis. What you said about training is the key. With SA/DA, DAO, or SA it really comes down to having a complete understanding of how the weapon works and having practiced using it properly long enough to make it very familiar.

I have had some bad experiences with Taurus before and won't buy another, but the Millenium (Pro?) I did handle seemed an interesting carry weapon.

Goodshot
September 26, 2006, 03:56 PM
Is there any way to get a round in the chamber of a new DA/SA Millenium Pro without it being SA on the first shot ? It seems to me that by pulling back the slide to get the first round chambered that the weapon would always be SA, unless it missfired, in which case it has DA second strike ability.

kokapelli
September 26, 2006, 04:13 PM
Is there any way to get a round in the chamber of a new DA/SA Millenium Pro without it being SA on the first shot ? It seems to me that by pulling back the slide to get the first round chambered that the weapon would always be SA, unless it missfired, in which case it has DA second strike ability.

The new Pro pistols are single action.

They are not decockers and do not have a hammer that can be lowered.

When you rack the slide, in a Pro, you have cocked the striker!

You must retract the slide in oder to chamber a round.

The only other way of getting a cartridge into the chamber without moving the slide to the rear, would be to jamb it in through the muzzle.:rolleyes:

Goodshot
September 26, 2006, 04:38 PM
Thanks Koke ! That's what I was thinking. It's similiar to the XD. It just has second strike capability. I was hoping they were made with a decocker...

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