[Oleg Volk]

Seeing how 5.45 and 5.7 pistol rounds use pointed bullets, I am curious what stands inthe way of using pointed bullets in revolver rounds? Conisdering the case capacity, it should be possible to stuff the longer bullets into the case far enough back to keep OAL reasonable.

Would rifling in existing .357mag revolvers be fast enough to stabilize a spitzer bullet (accuming modest weight for the caliber)?

The idea behind the load would be to provide good penetration (even plain FMJ without a steel insert should be up to punching soft armor such as worn by a terrorist) without losing much effectiveness on the soft, squishy thing inside...that assuming that the center of gravity can be made far enough back to make the bullet flip around promptly. It might not be an aggregate improvement over existing loads, I am just courious as to why spitzers aren't used in conventional handgun loads much.

[Desert Dog]

The limiting factor in a revolver is the OAL... i.e., binding up the cylinder because the cartridge is too long. The limitations for a pistol, are the feed ramp and magazine.

A spitzer style bullet for, .357, would be relatively long compared to the usual flat pointbullet for a revolver or pistol. You could push it back into the case, but I think it would still be too long if you kept it to the point where you could get a crimp on it.

I have thought of this as well, but have not put a lot of time into it.

Mike

[Jim Watson]

The French Arcane and GTV conicals are about as close to spitzers as I know of for pistol and revolver bullets. The Arcane is a short, sharp, true cone. Made out of copper, it is a penetrator. Dean Grennell had molds made in the same shape. The GTV had a concave ogive with a little knob on the tip, probably for feeding guidance in auto calibers.

[HankB]

Winchester-Western used to make a 158 grain pointed .357 Magnum bullet . . . the style was called "Metal Piercing" and dates back to at least the 1940's. (At least it's listed in my 1947 edition of the Western Ammunition handbook.) They were fairly common on dealer's shelves before the "Cop Killer Bullet" scare . . . IIRC the late Elgin Gates is supposed to have used this load in Africa to brain a Cape Buffalo that was getting feisty with him . . .

Lyman makes molds for a 120 or 125 grain pointed gas-checked .357 bullet. Hmmm . . . if it were to be cast in zinc and driven very fast . . .

[braindead0]

Load it in a .38 case, that'll give a bit more room for pointy end.

[Paul "Fitz" Jones]

The most effective bullet for penetrating anything is a FMJ GI 9mm ogive nose bullet from foreign GI ammo loaded in a .357 magnum case fired from a Colt Python with a standard .356 diameter barrel.

Penetration hard to believe!!

John Paul

[Steve Smith]

A 6mmBR revolver (or similar construction) could be interesting. Fast to reload, too.

I have shot .223 Timms (Thames?) out of a CZ-52 at over 2000 fps. That is an interesting ride. Not an autoloader, but just pointy bullet autoloader stuff.

[winwun]

Oleg, I often load spitzers and fire them with some degree of success in my BH .30 carbine. It's easy enough to keep the point from protruding out of the cylinder.

The best little .308 bullet I have found is the Hornady XTP in 95 grain HP. Not a spitzer, but it is sure enough a zinger.

A 9mm (.355) bullet fired out of a .356 bore? It would seem that accuracy would suffer, and one would suppose that due to the loose fit in the barrel, downrange power would bleed off pretty quickly.

The above are only my suppositions, as I have never fired the combination. I know that the 9mm fired in my Ruger BH 9mm/.357 is something less than adequate. When I started stuffing the case with 6 grains of BE and packing the Win. 110 grain HBHPMJ it became a tack-driver at 50 yards.

[tex_n_cal]

You could I suppose get a pointy rifle bullet in a pistol size and make it work.

.30 Carbine Rugers with 150 grain fmj spitzers should do the trick. Powder ? Charge weight? I think you're on your own, there, I have no idea what to tell you.

The .30 Luger similarly loaded also ought to accomplish the same effect. Once again, the loads would have to be very carefully developed.

Any hunting rifle bullet is going to be much tougher than a pistol caliber bullet, and likely won't expand at pistol velocities.

A Nosler Partition in .358 caliber should be essentially non-expanding in the .357 magnum. probably even in a .357 Maximum, too.

[Matt G]

I would be curious to hear if anyone can get .358 180gr. rifle spitzers to work out of .38 special cases in a strong .357 Mag. For those of y'all with .357 Maximums or the like, this should be even easier.

[winwun]

If you are worrying about enough oomph, I would say go to #5 or BE. I believe they have the greatest volumetric efficiency of any powders. You would certainly want to stay away from the bulky stuff like some Hodgdons and Unique. As someone pointed out, these are dangerous waters, for "here there be dragons".

[tex_n_cal]

Yeah, and you might find one of those fire breathing dragons in your hand.

I like experimenting just as much as the next guy, but it needs to be emphasized that you're definitely in uncharted territory on 150's in a .30 carbine...or rifle bullets in a .357, too, for that matter. Use extreme caution if you decide to pursue it.

[444]

I was going to mention that I regularly shoot spitzer bullets out of my .30 Carbine Blackhawk. Not as heavy as 150 grains, but they work fine. I never played around with trying to get maximum penetration, I was just using them because it was an available bullet intended for use in the .30 Carbine.

[winwun]

Wouldn't one logically assume that since the BH handles some pretty heavy calibers that it would be difficult to overstress it with anything possible to cram in the little .30 Carbine?

I don't see bullet configuration as being relevant at all, subject to COL restrictions.

If the BH frame can stand a 250 grain .44 mag, then what is the problem with a significantly lighter 180 grain out of a .30 carbine stuffed with whatever you can get in it and maintain a viable COL?

The frame strength is a given, and since Ruger foolishly (IMHO) made the carbine a 6 shot instead an 8 as they should have done (there would still have been more steel between the holes than in a .44), there is surely plenty of cylinder strength.

[444]

I don't believe that the Ruger .44 mag is the same frame as the .30 Carbine. The .44 mag is on the Super Blackhawk frame.

All that aside, I think the problem would be finding enough space in the case for powder with that big bullet. I believe what the gentleman was referring to was finding a fast enough powder to make the load worthwhile without generating too much pressure. I personally think that loading a bullet that big in a .30 carbine case and firing it out of a handgun would be a fruitless effort. You would have very little velocity. On the other hand, there are plenty of spitzer bullets available in the appropriate weights for the .30 Carbine case.
The .30 Carbine doesn't amount to much as a rifle round, and even less as a handgun round. It fires a smaller bullet at less velocity than the .357. In fact you can shoot the same weight bullet out of a handgun in .357 at higher velocity than the .30 carbine round out of a carbine barrel.

[winwun]

WOW ! ! 2,600 fps out of a .357 with a 110 grain bullet ? ?

[444]

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/rifle/30carb.php

http://recipes.alliantpowder.com/rg.taf?_function=pistolrevolver&step=2&bulletID=24&cartridgeID=1015&caliber=%2E357&cartridgedescr=Mag%2E&bulletdescr=110%20JHP


Who is getting 2600 fps out of a .357 or a .30 Carbine ?

[braindead0]

Who is getting 2600 fps out of a .357 or a .30 Carbine ?

Darned good question, I know I can get 1650fps outta a 125gr bullet. Perhaps a .357 rifle would be able to manage 2600fps 110gr..

[Cherokee]

Mr 444: The Ruger 44 mag SBH and the 30 Carbine BH both use the same frame. And I get 1700 fps out of my 30 Carbine BH with 110 gr lead bullets.

[winwun]

I should know better than to believe anything told to me in the military that I personally have not validated, but in the parroted litany of the instructor on the M-2 in 1949, ". . .U. S. Army Carbine, caliber 30, M-2, cyclic rate of fire 750 rounds per minute, bullet speed, 2600 feet per second, . . ."

The "tip-off" that he was typically full of military BS should have been the part where he stated, ". . .it fires so fast that there are 2 rounds in the barrel at the same time. . ."

Do the math. What an idiot.

I have no chrony, so I can't speak for certain about the ballistics on the .30 carbine. I was only (foolishly) repeating what I had been told.

Mea Culpa.

Mea Apologia.

[Cherokee]

winwum: At least when I was in the Army in 66+ they did not give us to much BS about the performance of the firearms. Of course, we all trained with the M14, then when shipping out to VN, they gave everyone M16's, in which we had previously fired 19 rounds with the sights taped up !! Just looking down the barrel !

My M1 30 Carbines will do an honest 2000 fps over the Chron with my hand loads, about 100 fps faster with a lighter 30 Mauser bullet. The same loads in the pistol go for 1700 fps.

[444]

Cherokee
Yesterday, I looked into this whole frame thing and found that you are right. I thought the SHB frame was different, but I was in error.