[Haycreek]

Since defense situations is likely to involve: 7 yards or less, 3 rounds in 3 seconds, are "high capacity" magazines necessary? That said, I carry either a Glock or a Gov't Model. But I really believe that 6 is enough. What do you think about capacity for the average man on the street that is well armed?

[cslinger]

In all honesty I think it comes down to an evaluation of actual risk and basic statistics.

In my case my statistical chance of ever needing a firearm for anything other than entertainment purposes is very nil. It could happen and I am prepared for that but realistically chances are very very slim.

Also take into consideration that the vast majority of situations that involve the use of a firearm to defend ones life never actually result in shots being fired in anger and generally the only thing necessary is a gun. Any gun actually from a Ruger .22 to .500 magnum crazy butt stomper but as long as it looks like a gun chances are the fight stops right there. The great majority of people have an aversion to pain and have been indoctrined by movies and TV to believe the a handgun round will hit you like a freight train.

Now based on the above the statistical chances of me ever needing to actually fire the gun in anger are extremely small. That being said chances are it will be in that contact to 7 foot range and probably won't involve alot of breat, front sight, shoot. More like holy Shi.........jerk trigger...........cry for help.......soil underwear........oh my God I actually got him or he is running for the hills now kind of thing.

I really don't feel undergunned with 5 rounds of .38/.357. Nor do I feel undergunned with 7-9 rounds of .45 or 10 rounds of 9mm or 17 rounds of 9mm.

If you can comfortably carry a Glock 17 with three full caps than hey you probably should. Nobody is ever going to complain about having too many bullets should the time arise. But do I think you will ever actually NEED that extra ammo. I don't think it is likely.

If it is likely then you should re-think your travel habits and situational awareness. My feelings are if 5-10 rounds of ammo doesn't either solve the problem or make my assailants take some kind of cover or retreat then I am in a world of hurt no matter how many rounds I have and I am going to be heading for the nearest rifle........while screaming like a little lost girl.:D

The best reason to have "HIGH CAP" magazines as in 17-30 rounds is that it really peeves the liberals off to no end.

I only get upset because having a full sized 9mm pistol with only 10 rounds seems so space in-efficient. The silver bullet....ehhh lining of the 94 ban was we now have some absolutely wonderful tiny handguns that pack a heck of a lot of firepower vs. their size. Glock sub compacts, KAHR, SIG 239 etc. and so on.

Once again in a RIOT, Civil unrest, or home defense of multiple attackers I am not even going to be thinking about my handguns.

[Handy]

How many attackers? How are they dressed? What caliber are you comfortable firing?

How good are you?



If you give yourself enough credit, you could talk yourself into a single shot derringer. After all, what's the chance that you would need more than one shot in a powerful caliber?

But if you feel you NEED six, why don't you feel that you may as well have 13? Or 20?

[treeprof]

Are we including options for reloading a gun w/that capacity, or 6 total?

Statistically speaking, 5-6 should be good almost all the time. But, personally, I 1) never play the odds when the downside is death and 2) find the extremes more interesting than the mean in such circumstances.

Anyone know where there are self defense shooting data that include median, mode, std dev, etc. with respect to shots fired?

[rgc]

I like hi-cap mags, wish I could afford a few more. However, I also belong to the Jeff Cooper school of thought that if it can't be done with five, six or seven rounds of .45 acp it won't matter what you have with you. (This is of course excluding protection in a riot/home defense situation as noted above by cslinger).

[Handy]

Statistically speaking

Which statistics?


There isn't any good data about the sum total of all defensive gunfights, especially broken down in a way that matches your defense profile to similar CCW incidents. There is probably a little variation between the "statistical" needs of someone working a liquor store in Queens and what you might need living in Upper Michigan.

You might get attacked by one angry giant, or 10 midgets. There is no math model to predict that (unless you taunt midgets alot).

You'd have to be nuts to let your Armed Citizen fantasy encounter dictate what you'll "need". Carry the maximum caliber and capacity you can tolerate.

A man who carries a Glock 20 is no better prognosticator than a man who carries a knife. Both are highly unlikely to EVER need it, and both may wish for a machinegun if they do.

[MikeJ]

I have to agree with cslinger in that the probability of me ever needing a gun is hopefully, very remote. I would add that depending on where you are when you need a gun influences my opinions on how many rounds are necessary. In a home defense scenario I too envision the situation to be very chaotic with lots of movement and ducking etc. I know statistically that the great majority of armed confrontations where shots are fired are limited to only a few rounds but I still like the idea of having ample rounds available should I miss or have multiple assailants such as in a home invasion. As it is, I keep a Beretta Centurion DAO 9mm next to my bed loaded with 15 rounds of Speer Gold Dot hollowpoints. Having those extra rounds gives me an added feeling of security should the need ever arise. When I go out for a walk in the evening I carry a S&W 640 Centennial and feel very comfortable with that as I view this situation very differently than in my home. I see that as a situation where I need to be able to retreat from the problem and provide a defense in order to do so. In that case I think 5 rounds are adequate. Mike

[cslinger]

I agree and that is why I said that if you are comfortable carrying a larger amount of ammo you should carry as much as you can. My point was some people are not able to carry, due to body shape, size whatever a large capacity handgun and reloads.

Personally I would prefer to carry a Glock 21 with two reloads (full capacity magazines). It is, however not practical for me.

What it comes down to is an evaluation of my risk at hand. I wear a seatbelt in my car but it is not a 5 point harness, I have a fire extinquisher or three in my house but no halon fire containment system etc.

I was a boy scout and tend to get caught up in the be prepared mentality but I find that it is very easy to over do it per say. I could work myself up into a frenzy and believe that I need to carry at least two handguns, a revolver and short barreled shotgun. I am not making fun as I really am like this. Heck I wish I could keep a loaded AR in my truck just in case. I find though one must find comfortable mediums. For me I am happy with 5-10 rounds of a caliber .38 or larger and a reload or two.

Could I possibly be involved in an attack by 12 crazed midgits, of course and once I run out of ammo and resort to tossing the little buggers one of them might get me. I will however go to my grave with to thoughts in my head. My mistakes are my own and a question to God that would go something like "What the heck was that for?????" Like I said I am willing to take that chance because I simply cannot practically carry a large handgun with multiple full capacity magazines, along with my keys, flashlight, knives, etc. and so forth.

I fully agree one should carry as much as they can comfortably carry. If somebody told me all they could carry was a .38 snub I wouldn't tell them that they were completely outgunned either. Everybody should however carry at least two reloads not necessarily for ammunition capacity but for malfunctions.

Am I right? Who knows? I think this is simply a very personal decision. Ideally I wish open carry was the norm and not frowned upon and that a slung rifle was a fashion statement. Alas that is not to be.

On a side note did anybody ever see "I'm Gonna Git You Sucka!"? The midgits reminded me of that. "I hate those midgits.":D

I am going to have bad dreams about getting attacked by midgits tonight. I just know it. Not only will I not be able to pull the trigger, the gun will fall apart, the bullets will come out slowly and there will be an army of midgits running toward me and I will die a horrible death.......laughing my fool butt off at all those little running midgits.

[treeprof]

Statistically speaking ....Which statistics?

Yes, exactly, and the basis for my points #1 and 2. The "odds" are one never having to need their gun in the first place, but the outcome of playing those odds wrongly could be severe. And, it's ultimately the consenquence of an event that's important, not the likelihood that it will occur. Likewise, any average is comprised of extremes as well as values close to the mean. For example, if an "average" number of shots fired in four defensive shootings is 5, a person with five rounds would be underarmed half the time if two of those shootings involved single shots and the other two nine shots. Never trust an average, no matter how calculated or defined.

[Darrin]

All of them. ;)

[Dr.Rob]

Stats go out the window when you are the one making them.

Last time thought I NEEDED a pistol no shots were fired. I was using a 7 shot .380.

I still moved up to a bigger, higher capacity pistol.

Let's hope we never find out how many is enough.

[P95Carry]

Probably the 5 - 8 sorta region should suffice most times. It does occur to me tho that just now and again there might be not one BG, but several...... very rare likelehood I admit but it does make you think.

In a firefight of this type, probably you'd want every round you had, and then some ..... in which case 20 to 30 rounds, depending on caliber, would sure help.

I usually don't carry other than what is in the gun ... 5 in snub or 10 in 9mm etc .... but now and again if I know I am to be in what might be a ''higher risk'' area, then I'll have a coupla speedloaders or a spare coupla mags..... ''in case''.

[BLiTzNicK]

I always carry a spare mag (speedloader for the J), not because I think I'll need it but because, "I can and I ain't afraid to"

[Landric]

Howdy,

The last time I had an encounter off-duty that I thought might involve shots fired (thankfully the situation changed when the people who I thought were going to rob me decided I was not the easy victim they wanted) I was carrying a HK USP40 Compact with 13 rounds, one spare magazine of 12, OC Spray, and a S&W 642 Airweight with 5 rounds in an extra speed strip.

I know that sounds like a lot of hardware, but when the incident happened, I was glad I was carrying a serious handgun and not only a J-Frame, a P32, or other similar type weapon. I was faced with two attackers who were likely armed themselves in an area from which I could not retreat safely. That is exactly the reason I carry what I do, because such things can happen.

Its likely that I will carry all that stuff for years and never even come close to needing it again. However, one can never have too many guns or too much ammo when it comes to a gunfight, but one can not have enough.

I've since changed departments, and as the USP40 C was my issue weapon there, I now longer carry it. I now carry my personal HK USP45 Compact with 9 rounds and a spare 8 round magazine, and I have switched from a 642 to a 342PD. All my other equipment is the same.

So, how much is enough? I don't know. What I do know is that when I leave the house I am carrying a mimumum of two guns and 27 rounds of ammunition in addition to a knife, cell phone, and OC.

[10-Ring]

I'd say 5-7 should be enough for most self defense applications.

[ACP]

I like Landric's approach, though I'm usually not that thorough. A lot of probable problems can be resolved with a cell phone and a can of OC spray. A knife is worth its itty, bitty weight in gold, IMHO. When I carry a .45 (8+1) I always carry a reload. Same with the J-frame, which I consider an ABSOLUTE MINIMUM with a Speed Strip reload. I usually didn't carry a reload when I carried a Browning Hi Power (13+1) or a Glock 19 (15+1).

To answer the question directly, I feel 5 rounds in gun for two people at very close distance is the minimum, and be prepared to take cover and reload. I'd be comfortable with 25 rounds of .45 ACP (one in gun, two spares) or 27-31 rounds of 9mm. If worse comes to worse, you are wounded and so are they, and you are out of ammo and they are approaching, use the knife.

[Penforhire]

Hmm, one poster said it best, the downside is death. I also think I'd have the most amazing tunnel vision and panic response since the threat just isn't that real in training exercises. So I have no doubt I'd be squeezing off wasted rounds and wishing I had a hi-cap mag.

Having said all that, I "feel" safe with six or more rounds. Something about a five-shot revolver crosses the line and makes me queasy. I probably have a deep-seated fear that I'll be attacked by three people, most likely caused by reading too many gun magazine 'true stories.' I used to be uneasy about 7 rounds in my 1911. Got over that. But you know, I still tried a few 8 round mags. Guess I'm still biased below six.

[cool45auto]

I feel comfortable with a hi-cap in my Beretta and an extra on my belt. That should be plenty and its not uncomfortable.

[WonderNine]

1

[Harold Mayo]

I was originally taught to carry two spare magazines in addition to what is in the gun if you are using a single-stack and one spare magazine if you are using a double-column gun. This was supposed to be "enough" for any civilian situation that you might encounter.

Recently, though, I attended the same school and the thought has changed, to my surprise. With domestic terror attacks and active shooters galore, the recommendation is to carry as many spare magazines as you can. Number is largely unspecified but three or four extras is a number that was thrown around a lot.

I will go on record as saying that I feel fine with a 5-shot revolver and no spare ammo. I don't carry a 5-shot revolver with no spare ammo, though. I normally carry a BHP with one spare magazine or a 1911 with one spare magazine. In either case, I carry some loose ammo in a pocket, too. Will I carry a whole bunch of magazines, as per the recommendations at the school? Probably not. I respect their opinion immensely but will not likely carry that many on my person. I normally DO carry several spare loaded magazines in my vehicle, not that that would help in many situations, but I just can't bring myself to load up what I consider TOO much. A primary handgun, spare magazine, Surefire, a knife, possibly a BUG...that's about all I can stand.

I actually think that carrying a lot is a good idea. Odds are that we will NEVER use the gun in a defensive situation. Even if we do, odds are that it will be over in a few shots. We're playing the odds here, though, and, if we stop at carrying only one spare magazine (or none), we're betting that we'll never need them just like by NOT carrying, we would be betting that we wouldn't need the gun. It's just a matter of what level of risk you accept.

[Newton]

I disagree with logic being applied here, the question should be:

Why would you want fewer rounds.

It is for this reason that a hi cap 9mm loaded with premium +P JHPs is still the most effective handgun combination available.

[QuarterBoreGunner]

It is for this reason that a hi cap 9mm loaded with premium +P JHPs is still the most effective handgun combination available.

So Newton, everything else is second best? I'm not a big fan of absolutism, but if that combo works for you great.

But I've never felt 'undergunned' with my lowely 10 rounds of .45 and in my (hopefully only) situation, four rounds sufficed to stop the threat.

Would 15+ of 9mm worked any better? I don't know. One round of .454 Casull? Who knows?

It's not a question of 'wanting fewer rounds' but of making the most efficient use of however many rounds you have.

My G30 holds ten rounds, and if I am in a defensive situation and need more than that, I've really screwed the pooch somewhere along the line and another magazine probably won't help.

[RCL]

In the area I live in 6 more than likely would be enough for social carry. However, when I'm out woods loafing (farm country with large woodlots) it's not that uncommon to see a dog pack with 4 or more animals in it. For reasoms such as that I'll usually carry my 11 shot .45.

[DontShootMe]

10 rounds.

Anything more and you are a gang-banger with evil intentions.

oh wait, thats sooooo 1990's... correction:

Anything more and you are a terrorist with evil intentions.

oh, excuse me, I thought this was Liberals-r-us.com

But really,

After all the money I've spent on ammo and practice, I feel I can defend myself quite well with my lowly G17 and it's original pre-Clinton magazine.

If that does not do the job, I'll run and scream like a baby and wish I was at home with mama. :neener:

[Vern Humphrey]

As any statistician will tell you, statistics break down when applied to individual cases. People drown in creeks that average 6 inches deep. People run out of ammo in situations where ON THE AVERAGE only a few rounds are fired.

There is no reason NOT to carry a reload. I normally carry an M1911 in Condition 1, that's an 8-round mag, and one up the spout. A second 8-round mag gives me 17 rounds.

[TheActor]

As many as you can carry comfortably.

[makdaddy03]

10+ prefer 15 or 20rds.:D

[Gerald McDonald]

5

[Brian Williams]

5 JHP gold dots 124's with 3 more 5 rnd moonclips in my pocket 10 124's JHP' and 5 FMJ.

probably to many but not enough.

[russlate]

I'd WANT 5 rounds in my J frame 38 ( plus a reload in case I dont make it to my hi-cap auto in the truck ).

On the other hand, I woudn't feel I had to roll over and die if I were armed with a Berreta 950 25 with 4" barrel, and 3 8- round magazines.

That's the nice thing about having 38spl/380's as your carry guns. You tend to stop and ask yourself "If this isn't enough gun, why not wait and go later instead. "

If on the other hand you really do have to make the trip, then take an ak and a shotgun with you. Or an uzi.

[Frohickey]

17 rounds.

One for me, and each of my 16 other friends. :D

But since I can't fit 17 people into my SUV, I would have to settle for a pistol with one in the pipe, and a full magazine, and a spare.

[Admiral Thrawn]

A Glock 17 with a spare mag is 34 rounds.

A 1911-A1 with a spare mag is 14 rounds, 21 if I can manage to carry 2 spare mags.

A Glock 21 with a spare mag is 24 rounds.

A SIG-Sauer P228 with a spare mag is also 24 rounds.

So my point is that I find any of the above combinations reasonably comfortable, and the ammo quantity sufficient; I try to aim for a minimum of 20 rounds total.

[JPM70535]

I agree that in a perfect world we would all carry Hi Cap pistols plus 3 or 4 spares. however, it really is not practical to walk around in Florida in July, wearing shorts and T-Shirts, and packing all that armament, ( Lets not forget the Tactical knife, and OC spray, and possibly a collapsable baton.)

If that is what gives you a sense of security, good for you. As for me, I feel adequately armed carrying my 8 shot 45, or my 5 shot 357 snub with maybe a spare mag or strip loader. If the problem is too big to be handled with that, then color me gone as in haul ***


GOD MADE MAN, SAM COLT MADE THEM ALL EQUAL!!!!

[Admiral Thrawn]

Well I don't have to worry about the OC spray or the baton (they're illegal here... :rolleyes: )

[gtd]

I'm not a cop or a soldier, so the number of rounds to carry is not my first priority. However, most of you will be free of concerns of terrorism years before I am (I just won't believe it until it's proven to my satisfaction -- witness Saudi Arabia today), so . . .

When reasonably possible, one CCW pistol with 7 rounds. Nearby, two spare mags plus a box of ammo , total about 70 rounds. Also a couple of useful tools. Pocket knife, flashlight, etc. Enough to bug out to a nearby safe harbour.

By the same token, it's not an obsession. If I have to go somewhere, and I do not have, or must not have, a weapon, so be it. The unwritten part of the Boy Scout motto is, "make do". Just try to have enough basic skills to improvise when you have to.

Having said that, if it's convenient I might have 2 spare mags in my pocket.

[Shaughn Leayme]

I lean towards more is better.

I found a horizontal pouch for single stack magazines and it allows me to carry 4 1911 mags (8 round) and isn't a whole lot bigger than most knife pouches and even when it is occasionally seen, that is what it is mistaken for.

Will I need 41 rounds of 45 acp to resolve a dispute? I hope not, but if I by chance do need it, I have it.

Along with a flashlight, knife and keys occasional pepper spray, I am prepared for most social occasion's and those that are less than social.

It boils down to your comfort level and situation.

[Tamara]

Well, let's see...

My belt gun carries 8, my pocket gun carries 7, and my purse gun carries 5. Is that considered "high capacity"? ;)

[Skunkabilly]

I like two magazines to balance out my heavy guns--P7M8 and Beretta 92....

The more the merrier, if I'm going to carry that much gun like a 92G, having 10-round mags is like driving a Ford F350 with 1/3 of the bed blocked off.

[WonderNine]

Well......I can get by with one spare Mec-Gar mag for the Hi-Power on a horizontal belt pouch. That's 15+1 and 15 extra.

31 rounds is about where my comfort level is. If you need more than that, then you're probably fighting terrorists with Ak's and you can pull a weapon off of one of the dead ones if need be :D

[Nightcrawler]

Recently, though, I attended the same school and the thought has changed, to my surprise. With domestic terror attacks and active shooters galore, the recommendation is to carry as many spare magazines as you can. Number is largely unspecified but three or four extras is a number that was thrown around a lot.

Unless I'm mistaken, each and every domestic terrorism incident in the United States in the last decade has involved placing of bombs (or something similar).

We haven't yet had a situation like they do in Israel, with heavily armed suicide squads going on rampages through crowded areas. It might happen, but thankfully it hasn't yet.

Ergo, using terrorism as a reason to carry four extra magazines is flawed logic.

I'm wondering how you folks manage to conceal a full sized 1911 and two, three, four extra magazines. You have your pants, your belt, and your shirt. Do you wear a vest or a jacket all the time the cover these items up? Doesn't that get hot in the summer? Come summertime, I'm usually in a T-shirt and pants, or shorts. Anything bigger than a small automatic or revolver in the pocket and I'm going to have trouble hiding it.

See, that's the tradeoff. The more stuff you carry the harder it is to conceal. If concealment isn't an issue, heck, I got you all beat. I have an LBE harness with mag pouches for four FAL mags (80 rounds .308), three pistol mags (30 rounds .45ACP), and a large combat knife. One 20-rd mag in the FAL and a 10-rd mag in the CZ-97 gives me 100 .308 rounds and 40 .45ACP rounds. I can stuff MREs in the buttpack and fill the canteen with water and I'll be set for all sorts of contingencies.

But then, I'll get some odd looks walking into Perkins, Wal-Mart, or the Gas Station like that, won't I? Not to mention the SWAT team that'll be waiting for me when I get come out...LOL

I really gotta wonder about you guys that carry the batons and OC spray as well. How do your pants stay up with all of that stuff?

[WonderNine]

I really gotta wonder about you guys that carry the batons and OC spray as well.

I don't understand why anyone carries that crap who isn't a LEO.....

If there's a certain self defense situation in which you think pulling a gun or a knife is an overreaction....use your kung-fu skills....:cool:

[SquirrelNuts]

I don't understand why anyone carries that crap who isn't a LEO..... Well, I am of the opinion that there is never option one or option two. Nothing in life is ever black or white. There are always several options. The more options, the better.

I would hate to be in a situation that OC or a baton would handle, and only have a gun.

I was eating dinner with some friends one night, and as we left the restaurant, a man soaking wet wearing nothing but boxers came up to us. The temperature was 40*F and he was begging for money for Jesus. He was obviously unarmed, but we had no idea what he was going to do. He was high on *something* and some OC may or may not have been helpful had he tried something. We were certainly not going to shoot him, but a little spice would have been acceptable.

I just think the more options you have available, the better. Another non-obvious option is a good flashlight like a SureFire. the P60 lamp assembly WILL temporarily blind you.

-SquirrelNuts

[Nightcrawler]

So, let's see here. If you'll all allow me to stereotype the typical uber-tactical gun owner (let us laugh at ourselves for a minute, and no this is not directed at Skunkabilly). He has on his belt:

1-each either full sized Glock or 1911.

1-each triple magazine pouch for said sidearm.

1-each Kel-Tec P11, Subcompact Glock, or other pocket rocket for backup.

1-each $200 super-tactical folding pocket knife.

1-each big-brand-name collapsing baton.

1-each cansiter of OC spray (choose your size).

1-each $90 SureFire-brand flashlight.

1-each $100 Gerber or Leatherman brand multitool.

1-each GOOD pair of Cordura(R) suspenders to hold your pants up.

And let's not forget the usual things the modern person likes to lug around these days; cell phone, pager, PDA, and a huge water bottle.

Even without the backup gun, that's a lot to carry around.

[Feanaro]

However many you are comfortable with. I personally think 10 rounds of .40 SW is adequate. Seven+one rounds of .45 is also adequate. Below that and I think you are gambling.

[WonderNine]

Nightcrawler, you forgot the wallet, checkbook & pen, coinbag and keys :cool:

I usually only carry that stuff along with a pocket gun & reloads in an Uncle Mike's #4 pocket holster (Usually a .357 with four extra cartridges in an uber-tactical Eddie Bauer belt pouch made for a mini-leatherman *my pocket rocket only holds four rounds anyways*) and a cell phone. :D I have a mini-maglite on my keychain....

Forget the tactical folder....

IMO, if you need a knife, you need it NOW, not in as much time as it takes to pull it out of your pocket and unfold it. That's why if I'm going to carry a real fighting knife it must be a "tactical dagger". I'll still carry my swiss army though because it's so useful.

In *full carry mode* I nix the .357 for a 9mm derringer in pocket holster and a Browning Hi-Power IWB or OWB (depending on dress and expected social situations) with spare 15 round mag in a horizontal belt pouch loaded with yet another uber-tactical choice=NATO 9mm FMJ.

[WonderNine]

Well, I am of the opinion that there is never option one or option two. Nothing in life is ever black or white. There are always several options. The more options, the better.

I'm of the opinion that sometimes simple is better. And hesitation is deadly.

I would hate to be in a situation that OC or a baton would handle, and only have a gun.

A knuckle sandwich will handle those situations just as well :D

[Aikibiker]

For a normal street confrontation I think the ammo in the gun should be sufficient. However I would feel a lot more comfortable waiting for the cops (in the dangerous area I am obviously in if I had to shoot someone) to show up if I had a fully reloaded handgun with me. Personal preference, YMMV.

If a riot is your concern then yes a shotgun/rifle is your best bet. If there is a riot in Daytona and I am at home at the time it occurs I want to have long gun at my side as I watch the city burn on TV.

If the mythical riot occurs while I am out and about on my motorcycle I am not likely to have a long gun with me and I will have to rely on what I am carrying to fight my way home. (Or to the nearest gunstore for more ammo/heavier weapons.)

As for what can be concealed during normal day to day life, check out what this narcotics officer totes with him to go to the store.
http://senshido.savi.ca/viewtopic.php?t=152&sid=4399b103aee27dc1689f68b851bce5ef

[gunsmith]

I am from NY City and have seen,on more then one occasin
gangs of 30 or more attacking 1 person,if all you have is 6
you are up a creek if attacked by 30.

[WonderNine]

I see this narcotics officer has decided to ignore the first rule of carry.

#1: Never have a loaded gun pointing at the family jewels.

With all that crap on his belt it's a wonder he could draw his gun in time if he really needed it :D

[gunsmith]

is much better then a knucle sandwich in these days
of hepatitus,aids,sars,tb,scabies and everything else
the homeless creeps here in SF CA have.
you DO NOT want to touch these guys with your bare hands!
and if you shoot them,it's alot of "splaining"
to people on the jury who will wonder why you do not
love mike moore as much as they do.
hose them with oc spray and wash your hands later...problem
solved

[Admiral Thrawn]

gunsmith, it doesn't help though when OC spray and batons are illegal where you live... :rolleyes:

[Feanaro]

I am from NY City and have seen,on more then one occasin
gangs of 30 or more attacking 1 person,if all you have is 6
you are up a creek if attacked by 30.

If all you have is fifteen you're still screwed. This is an "assault rifle" situation.

[Gerald McDonald]

Reading some of these post makes me glad I live in a nice small town, no gangs, no roving terrorist, no homeless people standing around looking threating. No home invasions and a few burglarys.

It appears some live in a state of constant threat and basically live in an armed camp. As I sit here looking out the window typeing this 3 kids just passed by with book bags walking to school (about a mile away) and a young lady in running gear is jogging her terrier around the park. Makes me glad to be where I'm at.

[Marko Kloos]

I am from NY City and have seen,on more then one occasin
gangs of 30 or more attacking 1 person,if all you have is 6
you are up a creek if attacked by 30.

There's a difference between preparedness and paranoia. I don't run around all day with a slung AR-15, because mob attacks are very rare outside of riots. If I ever end up being attacked by 30 people, I'll just have to shoot the first 25 and hope that the last five have lost their stomachs for a fight by then.

[Tamara]

It appears some live in a state of constant threat and basically live in an armed camp.

No, I just don't believe in being unarmed (ie "Socially Naked"). :)

[riverdog]

This is a "depends" situation. For a woods gun I'd prefer more ammo because you are really one your own and it's better to be over-prepared. Two legged creatures being the predominant threat I'd think that a G-17 with three high caps would be a start.

On the street where things are fast and furious, a small revo such as a Ruger SP-101 or a 1911 Colt OM with 5/6 rounds is plenty if you can present it in the time allotted.

Around the house I'd say a Rem 870 with 5 rounds in the magazine should be enough (backed up with a full size 1911 or a G-21 or a S&W Model 29 or a maybe a model 27 or maybe ...)

[Ala Dan]

Greeting's All-

Well, I carry a .45 caliber SIG-Sauer P220A with a seven
round magazine; and one up the pipe makes for a total
of 8. Then there is another seven round magazine on
my person.:uhoh:

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[Devonai]

I consider eight rounds to be the bare minimum. If carrying a six-shot revolver I would have at least one spare speed loader. For autos, I prefer one magazine in the weapon and one spare. However, I do feel comfortable carrying my Beretta 92 fully loaded to 15+1 with no spare magazine, at least in most circumstances.

[Minuteman]

I agree with Penforhire:
I also think I'd have the most amazing tunnel vision and panic response.... So I have no doubt I'd be squeezing off wasted rounds and wishing I had a hi-cap mag.
Once the adrenaline starts flowing, especially if you've never been in the kind of situation we're talking about, there's no telling how many rounds you'll fire.

My carry gun is a .40 Glock 27, which is 9+1. I have a number of different CCW holsters that I use depending on what I'm wearing and what my activity or destination is. I carry as many magazines as I can, dictated by my attire and activity/destination. My spare magazines are a couple of 15-rounders. I always carry my gun and any spare magazines on my person, not in a backpack or briefcase which can be misplaced, forgotten, stolen, or secured by an attacker before I can get into it.

If I'm attacked by a gang of 30 people, well, hey, it'll be hard to miss, right? :) I suppose an 8-round 12-ga. scattergun in the trunk wouldn't be a bad idea, too.

Minuteman

[355sigfan]

Bear minimum level of protection I will leave the house with is a 5 shot 38 snub. I feel much better with my Sig 239 in 357 sig or my Kimber 1911. The high cap guns are nice because no one ever died because they had too much ammunition.
PAT

[P95Carry]

Minuteman ...... welcome to THR . (HB here!) ...... doubt we could match all this info here eh?:)

[Tamara]

Personally, my training has all been geared towards the fact that if I hear any noise other than a *BANG!* from the gun in my hand, I'm not going to worry about reloading or jam-clearing or what-have-you, I'm going to toss it and reach for another gun. If the situation has extended past the point that all guns I'm carrying are expended, then I'll worry about reloading, jam-clearing, et cetera.

My favorite story to this effect was from my gunsmith, who relates a story of an advanced-level combat handgun course where, for failure drill practice, they had loaded an empty case in each student's pistol. Everybody on the line is firing away when their induced jams occur. All set about with their immediate action drills, save this one old guy on the end who lets his 1911 clatter to the range floor, scoops the J-frame out of his ankle rig, and keeps blasting away. The instructor runs over to him:
"No! No! No! You're supposed to be practicing your failure drill!"
"That's what I did!" retorts the old-timer. ;)

[SquirrelNuts]

is much better then a knucle sandwich in these days
of hepatitus,aids,sars,tb,scabies and everything else
the homeless creeps here in SF CA have.
you DO NOT want to touch these guys with your bare hands!
and if you shoot them,it's alot of "splaining"
to people on the jury who will wonder why you do not
love mike moore as much as they do.
hose them with oc spray and wash your hands later...problem
solved Yeah, I am not going to touch anyone. That is battery, affraying (fighting), and probably a laundry list of more items.

If I do not have time to determine that I need OC, I reach for my G17.

-SquirrelNuts

[Double Naught Spy]

Yes while most gun battles are at short distances, short duration, and don't involve many shots being fired, those statistics only represent past events and are mutually exclusive from any future events. Should the time come for you to be involved in one of those shootings, do you really want to base your activities on historical data? No, of course not, otherwise you would stop shooting after 3 rounds...statistically speaking.

When it comes to your time as it has for others, you will likely find that like your predecessors that you will not complain about having too much ammo for the fight, having a gun too reliable, a gun too accurate, being too prepared, or too well trained.

[355sigfan]

I am from NY City and have seen,on more then one occasin
gangs of 30 or more attacking 1 person,if all you have is 6
you are up a creek if attacked by 30.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



If all you have is fifteen you're still screwed. This is an "assault rifle" situation.
END

Shoot one or two of them and they will scatter like scared rats.
PAT

[Tamara]

Shoot one or two of them and they will scatter like scared rats.

At least one would hope so; if not you could always try singing a rousing chorus of Men Of Harlech... ;)

[355sigfan]

You got a point my singing would make anyone run away screaming or so my roomates tell me.
PAT

[Gordon]

FIVE!:cool:

[RON in PA]

I carry a J frame and one speed strip of reloads. That's enough for me.

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

ONE---unless you are planning on missing.

Since I don't live in a perfect world----I'll take as many in a magazine that I can get.

[rgc]

Yeah, but just pointing that 2 1/2 inch cannon at someone would be enough to make most run for the hills.

[Shaughn Leayme]

Now while it may be alot of equipment to carry around.

Guns's, light, spray, collapsible baton (where legal) allow you several options to choose from. You must take into consideration that your actions in a self defense situation will be under serious scrutiny after the fact.

Say that we use the OC spray on our assailant and it has little effect and we have to resort to the pistol, that will be taken into consideration when the shooting is judged.

No one can say (though they will) that you just pulled your gun and shot him, since clearly you tried to end the encounter without using lethal force.

The light can be used to determine a target or as a distraction and can also add to that all important defense of one's actions if the encounter takes place in dim conditions.

The claim that you just shot at the shadow or that the bg was trying to end the encounter or was just an innocent bystander, would be hard to validate, if you have a flashlight and know how to use it in conjuction with your pistol.

It might be extra weight and maybe a hassle to some, Overall I like the option's that are available because of that extra gear.

[HadEmAll]

"Since defense situations is likely to involve: 7 yards or less, 3 rounds in 3 seconds, are "high capacity" magazines necessary? That said, I carry either a Glock or a Gov't Model. But I really believe that 6 is enough."

Is this against one bad person? You can believe the statistics all you want, but I think they're meaningless.

[HKcenterMass]

um, if you are attacked by a gang of 30, and they want you dead, guess what? you are dead, even with a .50 cal auto... one of em is gonna cap you. if you have 15 rounds, your a gonner just the same, they are not going to attack one at a time, like in a segal movie... nope, youll have 10 of em on top of you stomping you, probably 2 dead or wounded, and the rest of em watching for the cops, who wont show up until after the fact. cant blame em though.

[Doc]

IMHO

the fight will last as long as YOUR ammo does

always and never and absolutely rarely ring true...:p

i actually change how much to suit my destination

[Nightcrawler]

I have a solution, for lovers of both the 9x19mm and .45ACP rounds.

You get yourself either an MPA-30 (http://www.rpbusa.com/mpa.html) or MPA-10 from RPB USA. (http://www.rpbusa.com/). They're new, well made MAC 10/11 clones. The MPA-30 is in 9mm, and accepts umodified STEN magazines. The MPA-10 is in .45ACP and takes unmodified Grease Gun mags. They're available in either top-cocking or side-cocking versions.

Then, to carry it, you get yourself an FMCO (http://www.angelfire.com/sk/fmco/) brand Load Bearing Shoulder Holster (http://www.angelfire.com/sk/fmco/010.html). Get the version that allows you to carry the weapon under your weak side and four spare magazines under your strong side.

Then, you'll have a semiautomatic pistol, complete with 150 rounds of .45ACP or 160 rounds of 9x19mm (assuming 30-rd Grease Gun mags and 32-rd STEN mags). Plenty of power for anything life throws at you, no? :neener:

[Longbow]

I can't see a situation were having more rounds is a disadvantage. With that said, I pack a Glock 17 w/ 20 rds of ammo (winter) or my Keltec P11 w/ 12 rd S&W mag (summer) for carry.:D

[Trisha]

One 12ga slug (1oz @1400fps, with 6+1 in the shotgun) per goblin anticipated.

Breaking that down to the handgun & ammunition carried is simple, and my basic minimum rig.

Trisha

[longeyes]

"I have a solution, for lovers of both the 9x19mm and .45ACP rounds.

You get yourself either an MPA-30 or MPA-10 from RPB USA.. They're new, well
made MAC 10/11 clones. The MPA-30 is in 9mm, and accepts umodified STEN
magazines. The MPA-10 is in .45ACP and takes unmodified Grease Gun mags.
They're available in either top-cocking or side-cocking versions.

Then, to carry it, you get yourself an FMCO brand Load Bearing Shoulder Holster.
Get the version that allows you to carry the weapon under your weak side and
four spare magazines under your strong side.

Then, you'll have a semiautomatic pistol, complete with 150 rounds of .45ACP or
160 rounds of 9x19mm (assuming 30-rd Grease Gun mags and 32-rd STEN mags).
Plenty of power for anything life throws at you, no?"

Right up until the thing jams on ya.:evil:

I think against 30 your best action might be to go into berserker mode with a well-tempered hand ax.

[Erik]

Adequate? 5 and a reload.

Any amount greater is, of course, also adequate.

---

Always carry a reload:

It adds little, if any, inconvenience to carrying.

It is the only way to get a semi-auto pistol back in action in case a type 3 malfunction occurs.

[Jack19]

I live life by the axiom: "Better to have more rounds on you than more rounds in you."

Statistics are interesting things. If statistics say that in 99 of 100 personal defense cases there are 3 shots fired, within 3 yards, within 3 seconds; I'm going to plan to be the 100th case.

Bring enough ammo to go home every day.

[Doc]

Jack19:

I am unaware of actual statistics in regards to lethal force encounters involving civilians.
The most quoted stats come from the NYPD during the 70's (revolvers) and 80's (double stack 9mm).
They show
ca. 2 sec with 5.x shots fired for 2 hits (70's).
ca. 3 sec with 12.x shots fired for 2 hits (80's).
Then they stopped keeping statistics as far as i know.

[New_comer]

I haven't read the previous posts yet but for me...

A full mag in my semi-auto gun (15 shots) for carry, with a spare mag nearby if at home. No sense relying on statistics of minimum shots needed if I could work the odds much in my favor.

For my shotgun, fully loaded mag tube, empty chamber. I am counting on the racking sound while loading to send an 'earful' of potential hurt to the would-be perp, time for him to change his mind. Spare shells must be nearby, minimum again of one magful.

In an urban setting where I'm at, setting off even a round will definitely catch the attention of roving peace officers. Setting off several would surely draw a crowd, and the police :D

[Dave T]

Q: How many rounds are adequate?

A #1: One more than it takes to stop the bad guy!

A #2: Who cares - ammo is cheep, life is priceless!

[Richard]

Weight of the handgun and ammunition have a lot to do with the equation. In other words how much weight are you willing to carry. In my case I regularly carry either S&W Model 457 or a Kahr 40. In both cases the handgun plus one extra magazine is good enough for me. I own some fine weapons and holsters but the above is what I am willing to tote on a regular basis. Regards, Richard:D

[natedog]

5-6 should be enough according to statistics, but do you really want to take chances? Plus, I'm not going to tell people that they shouldn't (or can't) have 32rd. magazines locked into their Glocks or 100rd. Beta-C mags in their AR-15.

[Vern Humphrey]

As I see it, at least one spare magazine. I really like two -- both 10-rounders, to supplement the 8-round (+1) in the gun.

Interestingly enough to those who want a limitation on magazines, a Paraordnance P14-45, with one round up the spout and one spare mag is 29 rounds.

My Kimber basic M1911 with an 8-rounder in the gun, plus one up the spout, and two 10-round spares is 29 rounds!

[Chris Rhines]

Capacity-wise, I'm going to go with 5 as a bare minimum.
Reloads-wise, one should always carry at least one reload, for clearing malfunctions if nothing else. More than that is, of course, up to one's personal comfort. Keep in mind that if you can carry two or three spare magazines, you can probably carry a backup gun instead. Which will be more useful?

- Chris

[Mannlicher]

Haycreek,

I suggest you load up with three rounds, and see what happens. :rolleyes:

[Logistar]

For a normal street confrontation I think the ammo in the gun should be sufficient. However I would feel a lot more comfortable waiting for the cops (in the dangerous area I am obviously in if I had to shoot someone) to show up if I had a fully reloaded handgun with me. Personal preference, YMMV. I think the same way, Aikibiker. When carrying 10-round capacity mags... I see myself possibly using most of those rounds in several possible scenerios. (Recent attack by two large dogs might use up one 10-round mag.) - Yeah, I just might miss a few times under pressure with quickly moving targets.

Anyway, the extra magazine isn't so much for the initial confrontation but to insure when I leave the scene that I have a FULLY loaded magazine and a completely functional weapon ready to go if needed again (until I get home anyway).



Logistar

[W Turner]

1911- 8 rd mag and a reload
Glock 20-15+1
CZ75B- 15+1
SW 642- 5rds. and at least one reload
KT P3AT- 7+1 and a reload

When I get my 5 or 6 shot big bore snubby I will carry a reload as well, but probably only one.

Mino

[Boats]

Oddly enough, I have been heading "downwards" as time goes by.

late 80s--had to have at least 15+1 9mm and a reload to feel reasonably well

90s--Went "down" to 8+1 .45ACP and one reload.

the Oughts--seriously considering a couple of .357 Mag revolvers and at least speed strips.

Perhaps this trend coincides with my becoming a better and better shot?

I like the old Marine maxim: A thousand misses is not firepower, one hit is.

[Vern Humphrey]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For a normal street confrontation I think the ammo in the gun should be sufficient. However I would feel a lot more comfortable waiting for the cops (in the dangerous area I am obviously in if I had to shoot someone) to show up if I had a fully reloaded handgun with me. Personal preference, YMMV.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The old mountain men had a saying, "When you shoot, don't stir out of your tracks without you reload."

Although I've never had to shoot someone in civilian life, my experience in combat is, people who look dead may not be, and people who you thought were alone, aren't.

[doubleclaw]

What I carry depends on the weather(I live in Mississippi, where it gets hot as a two dollar pistol), and what kind of clothing I'm wearing. During the cooler months I carry either a Glock 30, one reload and a Spyderco calypso, OR my Beretta 92FS, one reload and the Spyderco. During the summer I carry my knife(never without one), and keep the pistol within arms reach either in the truck or around the house. I will be looking for a smaller caliber pistol for use in the hot weather, maybe a Beretta tomcat .32 or a Kel-Tec, haven't decided. I do agree with the statements previously made by several members that your most important self defense asset is basically your ability to observe your surroundings and avoid likely trouble spots and situations. Sometimes you have no control over a situation, but it still pays to be alert. I've never had to use any of my firearms so far(and I hope I never have to!), but there have been several close calls. Each time I was able to either "dissuade" the assailant or make my escape without incident. I consider myself lucky, and I always operate on the assumption that one day my luck just might run out.

[BHPshooter]

This thread reminds me of a story I was told on a Boy Scout campout:

A group of fellows are backpacking in the wilderness, relaxing around a toasty campfire, when a voice emanates from the starry sky, telling the men to put gravel into their packs. The men look at each other in a state of confusion and doubt. Again the voice rings forth, "Put gravel into your packs." Still doubtful and not wanting to weigh down their backpacks, the men take a little bit of gravel and zip it into their backpack pocket before turning in for the night.

In the morning, the men open their packs to reveal that the gravel has turned to diamonds.

*************

Basically, you're screwed either way. If you carry 4 reloads, you're weighed down and the mags/speedloaders are in the way -- and you'll probably never need it anyway. If you just set out with a derringer or a 5-shooter, you've still got your gun, but you'll be awfully sorry if you find that you needed a sixth or seventh or Nth shot.

Like everything else, it's a gamble. However, discomfort is still preferable to death or injury, IMO.

Wes

[michiganfan]

didn't somebody once post in response to ths issue that
one less than the bad guy is not enough
one full reload was enough and
there is no such thing as too muchg

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
didn't somebody once post in response to ths issue that
one less than the bad guy is not enough
one full reload was enough and
there is no such thing as too much
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jeff Cooper said, "There is such a thing as enough ammo, and there is such a thing as not enough ammo. There is no such thing as too much ammo."

[Trebor]

There are two things I tell my concealed carry students when it comes to choosing a CCW gun:

1. Pick a gun that you WILL carry. The "perfect" gun does you no good if it's home in the safe because it's too much trouble to carry.

2. If you ever had to defend your life with your carry gun, would you be glad you had that SPECIFIC gun, or would you be wishing you had a different gun that you left at home?

How you balance the two conflicting ideas is up to you. Some people are comfortable with a 5-shot J frame and no reloads, while others want a high-cap 9 and two extra mags. The J frame is the better gun if it's there when needed when the 9's in the safe, but I bet no one who actually carries the hi-cap 9 would wish they had a 5-shot J frame instead if they ever had to draw.

[Richard]

Trebor,

You raise a very good point. I have ran the gammot with handguns and holsters for CCW. I have tortured at least two people by using them as my sounding boards; yes, they were Stephen A. Camp and Lou Alessi. I reached the same conclusions you have.

I see posters recommend a 1911 or Beretta 92 for CCW and it tells me one of two things. They have never carried anything else or they don't carry. Why? Large handguns are no picnic when it comes to carry. I have a Ken L. Null UNS and a Milt Sparks Summer Special for 1911s; it doesn't get any better and I still don't want to tote one of these things.

I presently carry a custom Kahr K40 but the end of the month I expect to transition to a Bersa Thunder 45. Again, why? I have to leave a pistol in the car a lot and I don't like leaving a $1,000 handgun behind. I chose the Bersa Thunder 45 as it is reasonable, light, accurate, compact, and reliable.

Regards,

Richard :D

[pwrtool45]

<dr evil>

One MILLION ro...

what.?.. oh..

One BILLION rounds!

muahah ahahah hhaha hAHAHAHAH!!!

</dr evil>

[BlackTalon]

Glock 30 with 2 mags
31 rounds

[cordex]

I see posters recommend a 1911 or Beretta 92 for CCW and it tells me one of two things. They have never carried anything else or they don't carry. Why? Large handguns are no picnic when it comes to carry. I have a Ken L. Null UNS and a Milt Sparks Summer Special for 1911s; it doesn't get any better and I still don't want to tote one of these things.
Don't be so hasty in your generalizations.
I've carried three guns primarily. A 1911 Commander, a J-frame .357 and a Beretta 21A. After having tried all those, I will still carry a 1911 wherever and whenever I can, and only carry the Beretta or J-frame as backup or on the rare occasion that my clothing is unable to conceal my 1911.

[Richard]

cordex, I have the same options you have and I opt for a small but powerful handgun. What do you carry 80% of the time? If it is a 1911 or similar size/weight handgun what is it and how do you carry it? Best and regards, Richard :D

[cordex]

cordex, I have the same options you have and I opt for a small but powerful handgun. What do you carry 80% of the time? If it is a 1911 or similar size/weight handgun what is it and how do you carry it?
More than 80% of the time it is a commander length 1911. I carry ~4 o'clock in a Milt Sparks Executive Companion with a decent belt. Generally in jeans with an untucked t-shirt to conceal. It works for me.
For the rare occasion that I won't be able to have an untucked shirt or suit jacket to cover my belt line, I'll use the J-frame in an ankle holster. If that isn't possible for whatever reason, I can pocket the Berretta (but I don't trust it all that much, so it is really a backup backup).

Right now I've got the 1911 on, as usual.

[45crittergitter]

I want 8 million, give or take a few hundred....:D

[Joe Demko]

IWB gun holds 11.
Pocket gun holds 8.
ankle gun holds 5.

Total= 24 rounds.
I don't typically carry reloads for any of them.

When wearing my deputy sheriff costume, I carry the mandated 2 extra magazines for my duty pistol.

[SapperLeader]

IWB gun holds 11 + two reloads of 10
pocket gun holds 5
ankle gun(usually only on car trips) holds seven.

Ive never heard anyone who walks away from a gunfight say they brought too much ammo.

[Majic]

Whatever make you feel comfortable. Be it a 2 shot derringer or a high cap pistol with a belt full of mags.

[355sigfan]

IWB gun holds 11.
Pocket gun holds 8.
ankle gun holds 5.
END

Sounds like your prepared. However its faster and easier to carry spare ammo than it is to have 3 guns. I believe in 1 back up in case the main gun is taken or otherwise put out of commision. Its also faster to reload usually than to draw a gun from a ankle or pocket holster.
Pat

[MrPink]

Well five better be enough because that's all my S&W 340PD will hold. Sure I usually have a speedstrip along for the ride, but if I have to reload a revolver, I'd damn sure better have put some distance and cover between me and the problem.

Although I have to confess I have been eyeing an S&W 386PD. Its seven shots put it on par with a 1911 and eighteen ounces is pretty light. I'm trying to figure out if it'll fit in my jacket pocket and if anybody makes a pocket holster for it.

[Kcustom45]

I carry a Kimber Custom in 45ACP with no reloads. I have 9 shot and I feel just fine wherever I go.

If you need more than a couple rounds you probably should not have let yourself get into that situation any way, but it is always better to be prepared than to wish you had more ammo.

[355sigfan]

Although I have to confess I have been eyeing an S&W 386PD. Its seven shots put it on par with a 1911
END

I assume you mean round count. But your a touch off. With 7 round mags the 1911 holds 8 rounds total and with 8 round flush mags it holds 9 rounds.
Pat

[MrPink]

355sigfan,

Granted the mag can hold 7 or 8 rounds and +1 for the chamber. I am old and old fashioned: I like 7 round mags and I like to load from the mag and have a place (ie, the mag) to put the chambered round when I need to clear it.

[355sigfan]

I use 7 round mags myself. But I load the chamber from the mag. and then load the mag with one more. No point it not having a fully loaded gun. But its not a big deal.
Pat

[Mil Novecientos Once]

How many rounds are adequate capacity for DEFENSE?
2 COM + 1 Head = 3 rounds
SHOT PLACEMENT: if you can't hit the target within the first seconds of the confrontation it doesn't matter if you have 15+1 or 7+1


http://usgi1911.tripod.com/m1911m9/mags.gif

If you face multiple goblins, IMO, its better to single serve starting with the closest treath while shotting, moving, shooting, moving and looking for cover if available.

[TheeBadOne]

One, as long as it counts :cool:

[happyguy]

On-duty I carry an H&K USP .45f w/10 rds in the gun and two spare 10 rd mags on the belt. Why? Because I have a double mag pouch:)

Off-duty, a 1911 variant 7+1 and a spare 7 rd mag on the belt. Often there will be an additional 7 rd mag nearby, or in a coat pocket, or in the glove box, etc.

On the rare occasions that I carry my Kahr P-9 I always carry 2 spare mags for a total of 22 rds.

Regards,
Happyguy:D

[swifter]

I've long held the firm belief that if you haven't solved the problem, or achieved adequate cover (preferably both) by the time you shoot a 5-shot J-frame dry, you probably have problems that can't be solved by shooting them...a hemorrhage, f'r instance. Doesn't mean you shouldn't carry reloads, mind...:rolleyes:

Tom

[Moparmike]

How many 1911 mags will a .50bmg ammo box hold? :D

[ACP]

Check out the thread under strategies and tactics on How many of you have ever been involved in a shooting? Just showing your gun makes the bad guy run. When shots were fired, it seems to be just a few. That's according to members here.

[RightIsRight]

Personally, I carry a 13" barrel Mossy 500 with a 12 shot extension tube. I also carry at least 200 rounds of tactical buckshot and 150 rounds of 1 oz. slugs. I ALWAYS wear a trenchcoat. Even when frequenting Asian Massage parlors.

In that coat, I also carry a SAW with 8-10 backup belts of ammo.

I only whip the SAW out if I have to engage multiple bogeys. For the most part, the Mossy is enough to scare off the usual idiots. If for some reason, I am stripped of my gats, I fall back on the multiple years of Ninjitsu training I aquired while doing my CIA internship in Nagasaki.

[dawg23]

I would love to see some of these folks (the ones who say "Five is enough" Or "Six is plenty" or "If I can't handle it with five or six rounds, it just can't be handled" show up at their local IDPA match and try shooting at multiple targets while moving - or shooting weak-hand only.

I'm gonna go way out on a limb here and say that a lot of them (not ALL of them, but a LOT of them) would change their tunes.:)

[Vern Humphrey]

Maybe we should point out that realworld shootings are not governed by statistics nor by IDPA rules.

In other words, if 99% of defensive uses of firearms don't involve a shot being fired, that is no guarentee that when YOU need a gun you won't have to fire it.

Nor is there any guarentee that your use will resemble any shooting match, no matter how practical.

So you MIGHT not have to fire a shot. Or you might have to fire only a few shots. Or you might shoot your gun dry and need more ammo.

A spare magazine is no great burden, and there is really no reason NOT to have extra ammo.

[Majic]

The various matches leave one big option out that is always present in street attacks. The option to retreat when shots are fired. To win in the matches you are required to attack each taget. To win in the street you are required to just get out the encounter alive. After your presentation of a weapon or your first shot the attackers may choose retreat. As soon as the attack starts I'm planning a retreat. The longer you stay in the battle, the greater your odds of losing become.
The games are fine, but you better remember that in the street you are pitted against another unpredictable human. The games and the real world are on different levels.

[Boats]

IDPA is fun, but it is fantasy!

First, the "assailants" aren't shooting back. Been there, done that with Iranians on motor boats before everyone and their cousin served in the Persian Gulf. "Fully reactive targets" shoot back. Then you find out what every cop or combat veteran has ever found out when being shot at: Manuevering is overrated if you have good cover and don't have to expose yourself to return fire.

Having been shot at by Islamofascists while hunkered down behind a pintel mounted Ma Deuce, with a steel plate shielding it, gives me a large amount of appreciation for infantry and cops, two groups who might have to manuever under fire. My only taste of having to clear places with even potential hostiles was in ship boarding in international waters and that is gut wrenching even when nothing happens. People who have to move about under fire or clear an unknown space with potential hostiles, have my utmost respect of their courage. Knowing the feeling, and knowing that the whole world sucks at that moment when shot at, my preference in a hold-up or "street confrontation" will be to dive to cover if it is available, draw, and stay there unless I can't. I'll draw and fire without cover if I need to save myself or a loved one thank you very much, and then get to cover, but not manuever just because there are targets in the area or because I gamed a scenario just like this one once or twice during a shooting game.

Does any of my admittedly little experience with warfare translate to my civilian shooting life? I tend to think so, especially when I participate or watch range activities. Several observant people have pointed out what I already tend to think: Gaming reloads and weak side shooting or shooting many "perps" in a stage is a load of BS. Sure, someday someone might get to play the role of The Punisher, but it is exceedingly unlikely.

In the real world there will not be any pop-up steel cutouts waiting to be neatly double tapped in the A-Zone or Mozambiqued. Contact distances will likely be way shorter than the 15 yards I see many people practicing against. I often see, and I'm even guilty of it myself, more time spent banging away for giggles or tighter groupings and not enough practicing a draw and first shot or two. For that aspect alone, IDPA is worth something.

However, let's not confuse the artificiality of the tactical scenarios in a game, wherein no one tries to break contact, the good guys all play Bruce Willis in Die Hard, the bad guys are almost always attacked one at a time in a scripted stage, and their inanimate morale always holds long enough for you to have to perform a "tactical reload," with real life.

I'd feel perfectly fine with a five-shot .357 Magnum revolver. The chances of anything more than presentation or "brandishing" being required are vanishingly small, and if the weapon needs to be used, there would be enough, with one reload, to get anything done you are likely to survive, alone, weak-handed or otherwise.

[orangeninja]

and only then if you're very proficient with it.

[twolf]

When I was in the service I was always taught "two is one; one is none"....in other words, you can never have too much.

I generally carry 15+1 in my Glock and one extra mag, ya just never know.

[Marshall]

Every situation would call for a different answer, more than likely. Just make sure you can hit what you aim for and you'll be in business whether you have a 5 shot revolver or a 20rd extended mag on a semi-auto.

[Rickstir]

When I can carry my 92 FS, its 16 and a spare mag. When I carry my snubby its 5 and 5 more in a speed strip. I have 25 of each in boxes in my console. Doesn't take much more effort.

[wheelgunner100]

6 in the gun, 12 on my belt and 5 in my pocket. I shoot revolvers better than I do bottom-feeders so that's what I carry. Ammo capacity doesn't mean anything if you can't hit what you shoot at.

[WEPS]

i've never heard a man complain of having too much ammo. more ammo is always better.. better to have and not need then to need and not have. that being said i still only carry one 7 round mag:confused:

[JohnKSa]

Things you never hear people say after a gunfight.

1. I wish I had been carrying a smaller gun.
2. I sure wasted a lot of time practicing.
3. I wish I hadn't been carrying so much ammunition.
4. He was so close it was a waste to have such an accurate gun.
5. I'm thinking that I could get the same effect with a .25 ACP.

[twolf]

I wish I wouldn't have had to kill him, that way he could sue me later in court :evil:

[faustulus]

I bet a gunfight has never ended with someone thinking: "I had too much ammo."

[Vern Humphrey]

Or, as Jeff Cooper said, "There is such a thing as enough ammo. And there is such a thing as not enough ammo. There is no such thing as too much ammo."

I carry my Kimber Custom Classic (M1911 Clone) cocked-and-locked with an 8 round magazine, and two spare 8 rounders -- for a total of 25 rounds.

[CAS700850]

Okay, let me first admit that I've skipped forward to the end of the thread. Sorry I got here late, and more sorry if I repeat anything that has already been said. For me, adequate supply fo ammunition means enough that I bring some home when the problem is solved. If I have my way, and I will, I'll be adding mags soon enough, with the AWB dead, and hi-cap mags priced somewhere below gold and platinum.

My carry gun is a Glock 19. I wear it in a Jackass rig with two Glock 17 mags, with the +2 adaptors. 54 rounds should get me through the night, as I use this set-up for when I'm on-call, goinmg to crime scenes, helpiing with search warrants, etc.

During the day, when it's a suit and tie, I carry the same Glock with one mag as a reload. 35 rounds should do fine.

I just never want to find myself in a situation where I;m holding an empty gun, praying for help to arrive.

[foghornl]

Enough ammo for you to be the "Last Man Standing"####, and be able to walk away.


#### Unintended reference to Bruce Willis movie

[one45auto]

Once again in a RIOT, Civil unrest, or home defense of multiple attackers I am not even going to be thinking about my handguns.


Nor will I.

Wyatt Earp once claimed that carrying a revolver proved he had no intentions to start a fight at the Ok Corral, because a man who knows he's going to get into a gunfight takes a shotgun or a rifle.

In all of the scenarios you mention I'd be reaching for my Winchester Trapper first and foremost, using my pistols as backup just in case the bad guys caught me in the act of reloading.

[Buck Snort]

I think we need a law on the books requiring all BGs who attack GGs to stand in one place and give the GG a chance to get off at least one sighted shot. That way I'd be able to stop carrying around that heavy .45 ACP and start pack'n a derringer.

[Slaytera666]

What if I come into a situation where I need more ammo?
What if I'm jumped by 30 guys and I only have 25 rounds?
What if my attacker has on two Second-Chance vests?
What if my attacker has more ammo than me?
What if I slip on a bar of soap in the shower and die?

We can do "what-if's" all day long, it's going to get us nowhere. Carry what you feel is comfortable for YOU, a weapon YOU are proficient with, and the amount of ammo YOU think YOU will need. Do some guys on here have alot of valid points? Yes. Do some go overkill? Maybe. Do what you do for you, and only you.