[Fn-P9]

Although a thread similar to this was just posted,

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=222782

I wanted to ask specifically about the Mosin Nagant. There is a sporting goods store in my town that has had some on sale for awhile now.

http://big5sportinggoods.shoplocal.com/big5/default.aspx?action=browsepagedetail&storeid=2503853&rapid=318406&pagenumber=3&listingid=-2094375988&ref=%2fbig5%2fdefault.aspx%3faction%3dbrowsepagesingle%26storeid%3d2503853%26rapid%3d318406%26pagenumber%3d3

For $90 it seems like a good higher powered plinker. I wanted opinions on this specifically. Seems like a good project gun in a way. Can a guy sand down the factory finish and get some wood stain and brighten or darken it from the normal scheme? Anyone have any other ideas to alter the gun other than make it "tacticool"? lol What are some good places to look for ammo for this rifle?

Apologese is this thread is too similar to the other.

[crazed_ss]

I just bought one for 74 bucks at Big 5 Sporting goods. It looks to be in almost mint condition. I havent read much on them, but 74 bucks is too good of price to pass up.

[Limeyfellow]

About the standard price for them. You can sometimes find them as cheap as $60 though for such a rifle even at the price you listed is fine and you can get plenty of surplus for about 10 cents per round.

They typically have a shellac finish to them so it can be taken off with as little as industrial alcohol, though I find they look fine with the standard finish and are easy to restore to a good condition though all you would need is to stain it. Plenty of addons for the rifle such as rifle scopes and so on. Theres quite a few infact thats been altered to represent Mosin sniper rifles.

If you can find a Finnish one its well worth the extra expense, since they tend to be specifically good. I would avoid the Russian ones during WW2 as they tend to have some rushed ones and not as refined as normal. Check the trigger for grit and bolt if you can. Some people don't like the safety on it pulling back and twisting on the bolt. Common design on many rifles but requires a little strength and practice to turn it.

You will end up with one of the most successful battle rifles of all time used even today in some places and for the price well worth it.

[Cosmoline]

Choose the Big 5 ones with care. There are some real dogs mixed in the bins. In general look for pre-1941 or even better hex receiver 91/30's. I just posted a thread about troubleshooting common problems and accurizing them.

[dfaugh]

There are quite a few M-44s out there for really reasonable prices, in good to excellent condition. I bought one at Dunham's that was "as new" (although I sustect it was re-arsenalled) for 79.99. A bit handier than the longer 91/30s. But the big problem I have with Mosins, is that you have to put the gun into battery, before you can engage the safety. Most people don't seem to think anything of it, but to me that's really a safety issue. Much prefer the Mausers, even though they cost a bit more.

[Ash]

You have to put the Garand into battery before you can put the safety on as well. It isn't a problem as your finger is nowhere near the trigger when you cock the Mosin, and if you follow proper firearms handling, there will not be a problem in the second or two it takes to engage the safety.

The Mosin, interestingly, is not really a Russian design as it is a Russian modification of an American design. The Mosin action is really just a modified Berdan II action, which was designed by Hiram Berdan, the American who designed the Berdan primer system. The Berdan differs in that it is a single shot action with the bolt handle serving as the locking lug. Fundamentally, Sergey Mosin added a bolt head and a tube magazine in the butt in his design. The magazine was dropped for one that was similar to Nagant's magazine, but the rifle retained the overall Berdan appearance, plus the small hand rest on early Mosins and, obviously, the new magazine. The first truly Russian standard infantry small arm was the AVT (okay, the Federov, but it really wasn't put into general use).

So, oddly enough, the Mosin is fundamentally an evolved American design, just as the Springfield is an evolved German design (and the Enfield is an American (okay, from a naturalized Canadian Scotsman) design). Interestingly, the major combatants used rifles based on German, Austrian, and American designs, with only the Germans and Austrians using completely original designs from their nations. The Americans, Turks, Brits, Russians, and Italians used rifles that ultimately originated in another nation, national pride and the reputations of Mosin and Carcano's commission aside.

Ash

[MachIVshooter]

just as the Springfield is an evolved German design.......with only the Germans and Austrians using completely original designs from their nations

Unless history is quite different than I've read, we designed the M1903 after caturing Spanish M1893 Mausers during the Spanish-American war. True, Peter Mauser was a German designer, but Germany was one of the last countries to adopt his design. Mauser peddled his design around the globe, and the Spanish were the first to adopt it, while the Germans were still using '88 Mannlicher commission rifles. I will give you that we based the M1906 sptizer round on the 8x57 JS, though.

The Americans, Turks, Brits, Russians, and Italians used rifles that ultimately originated in another nation, national pride and the reputations of Mosin and Carcano's commission aside.

I would also argue that the Carcano is as different from a Mannlicher as it is from a Mauser. While partially derived from it may be, a clone or variant it is not.

[Limeyfellow]

Even alot of the final design wasn't Russian designed. Leon Nagant was from Belgium and built the feeding mechanism and other features and that was mixed with the design by Capt. Sergei Ivanovich Mosin's bolt action into a final design. Its interesting that most the early ones are infact French built due to lack of Russian industry to make them. Its only very slightly similar to the Berdan rifle which was found unsultable for alteration and the guts of the Mosin are quite different, other than the basic features shared by many bolt actions.

[Gord]

Mosins (and milsurps in general) are a fantastic bang for your buck.

They're solid, simple, reliable, and powerful enough to take down most anything on this continent. You can't ask much more for 75 bucks. Accuracy is about what you'd expect from a mass-produced Russian battle rifle, but it's not terrible by any means - I set up used 20-gauge shotgun shells at 100-200 yards for mine and hit them just fine.

In general, sporterizing (chopping, sanding, etc) milsurps is frowned upon, but it's your money and your property - do what you want! ATI makes a synthetic Monte Carlo stock for the Mosins which can be had for around $60, and also makes a bent bolt kit/scope mount so you can scope it if you want. I find the irons to be more than adequate, but then I live in SoCal and there's not much in the way of 1000-yard shooting here. 200 yards to me is a long ways; I'm sure there's a whole group of 10/22 owners laughing at the poor California boy shooting centerfire at that distance though.

Mosins (and, again, milsurps in genmeral) are steeped in history and just plain fun to inspect and research all the proof marks and other various stampings.

You really can't go wrong. Send the ATF $30 for your C&R license and start getting them shipped right to your door. I have four (Mosins, not C&R licenses :p)

Edit: As for ammo, surplus 7.62x54R can be found cheaply online - Sportsman's Guide, Cheaperthandirt, Ammoman, JG Sales, SOG, AIM Surplus and pretty much any other milsurp dealer. Surplus ammo is corrosive, so if you're not the cleanin' type, non-corrosive new-production ammo is available from Sellier & Bellot and others, but it's pricey.

[thefitzvh]

I wholeheartedly disagree with the above... you should NOT get your C&R license


It will cause you to spend insane amounts of money, much to the chagrin of your friends and family


Your trigger finger will thank you, however ;-)

[Cosmoline]

caturing Spanish M1893 Mausers

... all of which were made in Germany and were a German design.

The Mosin's safety, which gets a lot of flak, is probably the safest safety on any rifle. It's the only one I know of that actually locks the back half of the bolt to the receiver. What does or does not happen to the trigger is irrelevant once it's engaged.

[TimboKhan]

The Mosin is a great rifle provided:

1. The barrel isn't shot from lack of cleaning.
2. You take the time to really, really clean all the cosmoline out.
3. You keep in mind that it is a battle rifle and not a purpose built sniper rifle.

You do all that, and you will love your Mosin. I have one that has something of an extractor problem, and even with that I really, really enjoy shooting it. I will like it more once that problem is fixed, but the fact is that it is just a fun rifle to shoot. Really, my biggest complaint about the rifle is the safety. At best, it's uncomfortable and awkward to use. Still, thats a minor complaint since I just take care when shooting it. I find the sights to be good. They do not surpass the Springfield or the K31, but they are good sights. I would not hesitate to use my carbine as a hunting rifle as-is.

As far as sporterizing it goes, it's your rifle and it's possible to do it up pretty nicely. Personally, I have two hi-power hunting rifles and thus have no cause or motivation to sporterize a battle rifle, but if you want to do so, it's your rifle. I would argue that for the investment, resale value really isn't a concern, so why not? Of course, if you have good eyes (like I apparently am blessed with), just leave it alone and hunt with it like it is.

[Cosmoline]

What kind of extraction problems? The usual jaming? When checking pin protrusion keep an eye out for this gap:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/Gussick/trouble1.jpg

If that appears during your protrusion test, it's a sign the pin needs to be backed off a bit. That extra space there will create too much space between the back of the handle and the bolt head, creating nasty jams.

I just posted some pointers on how to troubleshoot and accurize these things. With some basic spring repairs, a new trigger and shimming I was able to improve a 1937 refurbished Izy's groups from about 3" at 75 yards to 1 1/2" at 75 yards. Not exactly a sniper rifle, but a nice shooter. It's an extremely simple and solid rifle, and quite easy to improve without the hack saw, at least as long as the bore and most of all the crown is still in good shape.

[40mmHEDP]

I commited the mil surp modifying sin on this Mosin. It is fun to shoot!
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g51/40mmHEDP/mn_1.jpg

[rangerruck]

you can cut the bbl to 16, you can put it in an ati stock, you can put a forward scope mount on it, but i've got an all matching numbers m38, that is so light and handy, plus it is a moa capable rifle, i decided to leave it alone. If you get one will all matching numbers, you may wanna leave it alone as well.

[Jack19]

Get yourself a Finn M39 and the Mosin takes on a whole new meaning.

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/M39_small.JPG

SOG has them on sale again; but the prices are way above what they were a few years ago.

Sako: $329
VKT: $289
"B" Barrels: $349
"Sneaks": $349

:eek:

[Cosmoline]

You guys who insist on bending the bolt are missing out. Use my patent method on the short bolt, without breaking the weld:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/Gussick/cycle.jpg

I've gotten so I can cycle the short bolt Mosins like semiautos. The speed amazes me most of all, since I'm not a speedy person in any sense of the word. But using main muscles you can go VERY fast with the short bolt handle.

There's a similar speed method used with cock-on-closing straight bolts like the Swedes, shown in the May-June 2003 issue of "Rifle". It shows how Lt. Col. Kugelberg of the Finnish Shooting School was able to get 21 aimed rounds out of his Swede Mauser in 52.3 seconds, all hitting a chest size target at 150 meters. Try that with a big bent bolt. Kugelberg's method used the flat hand held vertically, not horizontally, to lift the bolt since less effort is required on the upstroke with a cock-on-closing Mauser than with the Mosin or a Mauser 98. My version brings more leverage into play with each stroke, but like Kugelberg's it minimizes the amount of finger and gripping movement, since getting a grip on the knob with fingers slows things down immensely without really adding any major muscle leverage. If you bring your palm up in the manner shown, you will find that the pressure of the knob automatically causes your two little fingers to grip the knob, and since almost no pressure is needed to bring the bolt back once the knob is up and the action cocked, the little fingers are more than sufficient to kick the bolt back to the stop. Then you just reverse thrust and push forward, and since your hand is still cupped the palm automatically grabs the knob on the return stroke, bringing your big arm muscles into play to pick up and seat the new round. Your trigger finger has nothing to do with any of it, and is ready and fresh to snag the trigger after cycling.

[DWARREN123]

Get one with a good bore and that is tight, clean it up and shoot it.

[AH-1]

pssssst...get the M39 worth every penny you spent.
pete

[Deer Hunter]

I absolutely love my M44. It looks like it's never been shot. It's a 1945 Russian with all serial #s matching and a crystal-clear bore and a beautiful stock, the picture really doesn't do it justice. After only two range trips, I was hitting the bullseye of a 45 yard target easily. Don't change a thing about it, they're perfect the way they are. I don't like to see bent-bolt mosins unless they are fixed with an original mosin scope-mount. I prefer straight bolts over bent bolts, anyway.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a367/killer56/dood002.jpg

[MachIVshooter]

I'll apologize first for being off-topic.

Now, I acknowledged in the first post that Peter Paul Mauser was a German designer, but ......

... all of which were made in Germany and were a German design.

Do you mean all except the ones made in Spain and Belgium. My example was produced in Belgium.FABRIQUE NATIONALE D'ARMES DE GUERRE HERSTAL BELGIQUE

[Cosmoline]

That's an ANTIQUE one from the Spanish-American war? If so I stand corrected. I didn't think FN made them until later.

[tyesai]

FN-P9

Get one, you will love it. I have 2, a 91/30 and a M44, I plan on getting two more soon, a laminated 91/30 and laminate m44. Surp ammo is cheap and plentiful right now and don't be scared off by the its corrosive deal. All you have to do is spray the insides down with windex after firing then clean as normal ASAP.

As far as chopping it up and sporterizing as someone already said it is generaly frowned upon but it is your money. I butchered one not to long ago just because I wanted to see what would happen while playing around with different refinishing ideas. And before I get any unoriginal comments about the grill, my answer is, "I don't care, I like it".

http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/5084/picture234mg7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

And yes I know the barrel bands aren't all the way on.

[AH-1]

http://www.geocities.com/fritz125541/German1893

[MachIVshooter]

That's an ANTIQUE one from the Spanish-American war?

No. 1927. I only wish I had one of the originals.

I'm not brushed up on where each and every old military rifle was produced at a given time, I just know that being on the wrong end of the M93 was a big factor in the change from Krag to M1903. I am also aware that the '03 is closer to the M98, as the US didn't obtain license to manufacture until PPM had alredy designed the large ring 3 lug system of the 98 and opted for the sturdier action.

Didn't mean to cause a ruckus here, just trying to point out that it was the M93 Spanish, not the 98K, that peaked US interest in the Mauser Action and that the Spanish were the first to adopt the "new" Mausers.

Edit:
Since I've nearly hi-jacked this thread, to the orignal topic:
Very hard to beat a Mosin without spending 2-3x the cash. Accurate, reliable and the 7.62x54 is a very capable round. Furhter, it is currently about the cheapest full power rifle round available. I only have an M44 right now, but at ~$100 for any run of the mill Mosin, I will undoubtedly get more down the road.

[Ash]

"Its interesting that most the early ones are infact French built due to lack of Russian industry to make them"

That is actually a myth and is really not true (blame Ian Hogg for that one). At the time, the Russians were still producing the Berdan II (they produced 3 million Berdan II's), with both Izhevsk and Tula building them. The Russians had plenty of capability to fabricate the Mosin (they were currently building Berdans at a high rate when Chatelleraut was contracted to produce Mosins), but farmed out the first contract while they finished up Berdan II production and re-tooled for Mosin manufacturing. In other words, they farmed out initial production while their own factories changed over their production lines.

As to the Springfield, we did go to the German designed Mauser system after facing Spanish Mausers, but we did not copy the 1895 Mauser, but the 1898 Mauser, which was not used by the Spanish. In any case, it was a German design (and Germans were used to using Mauser's designs, they used the 1871 Mauser before adopting the M88 Commission rifle and then returning to the Mauser with the Gewer 98).

As to the Carcano, it was more an original design mated to a Mannlicher magazine, so the action was Italian. I stand corrected on that one.

Ash

[Fn-P9]

Thank you everyone who has replied to my post. I think I'll go down and see if they have any that are in decent shape. Im mostly concerned about the barrel and action (moving parts) than the stock. I dont plan on chopping it up or anything. Like I said, the most I'd like to do to it is alter the stocks wood colour through staining, or possibly adding a scope. I know thats still a crime for some :evil:
Although I did like 40mmhedp 's picture, I think he changed it to look like a rem 700. hehe