Got to shoot my Enfield today.


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cool45auto
May 13, 2003, 05:12 PM
It kicks a lot more than my SKS! I let it get up against my collar bone one time. Ouch! Other than that mistake I made it did good. I only shot it at 30 yard targets. It grouped at 2" with the iron sights. I was happy. I only had 20 rounds with me.:( Can you get ammo for this rifle cheap or should I check into reloading?

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resmeth
May 13, 2003, 05:27 PM
Which enfield did you get? The .303 has cheap mil-surplus ammo available, but it has corrosive primers, so correct cleaning is imperitive. New stuff runs $18 for a box of 20, but they have modern non-corrosive primers so you save time cleaning. I have no idea about reloading.

ShaiVong
May 13, 2003, 05:59 PM
Anyone know if this (http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd/product.asp?sku=AMM%2D755&thru=fr&mscssid=BV7MAR850H7T8H00JLFQSAUWAT2J41M4) ammo is corrosive?

craigz
May 13, 2003, 06:13 PM
All new production ammo is non-corrosive. It's only the old surplus stuff that you have to worry about. I think it was sometime in the sixties that everyone started using non-corrosive primers.

Jim K
May 13, 2003, 06:24 PM
That PMP ammo is commercial and non-corrosive.

Actually, almost all commercial ammo had gone to non-corrosive primers by the 1930's. The military was concerned about stability under advserse conditions for long periods and the U.S. didn't go completely to non-corrosive until 1952, with even some corrosive after that. All WWII ammo should be considered corrosive except for U.S. made .30 carbine and Canadian .30-'06.

Jim

ShaiVong
May 13, 2003, 06:34 PM
Thanks!

Gods I love this board :D

cool45auto
May 13, 2003, 06:38 PM
resmeth: It's a '44 No.4 Mk1, sorry, I should have put that in the title.

ShaiVong: me, too!

BusMaster007
May 13, 2003, 09:36 PM
Hey, cool,

did you ever make use of those links?

Glad you and your rifle got 'intimate'. :D

W.Va.Glassman
May 13, 2003, 10:05 PM
Look for some of the South African 303.The ammo I bought at gun show is Boxer primed,shoots good groups.The ammo I have is marked,7.7 A80 R1M32.(It's 174gr.) $14.00 per 50.

UnknownSailor
May 13, 2003, 10:29 PM
I have some surplus Greek stuff that I bought for my No. 4 MKII* about 5 years ago. I havn't had to buy any .303 in a while, as I rarely shoot it. I will be running low after my next outing with it, so I will have to get some more.

cool45auto
May 13, 2003, 10:50 PM
BusMaster007: Oh yeah! Those links helped out a lot! Thanks, man.:cool:

Andrew Wyatt
May 13, 2003, 11:10 PM
you can't get the south african ammo anymore.

i offloaded my lot of it because it didn't shoot to the same point of aim as my PMC ammo (which is made in the same place!)

PMC .303 is good stuff.


i need to pick up some of that pmp and see if ti shoots to POA. I want to take my number4mk1 pig hunting.

mephisto
May 13, 2003, 11:20 PM
i love my 303.
i was shooting 3" at 100 yards bench rest. iron.

W.Va.Glassman
May 13, 2003, 11:23 PM
I find the S.A.at most of the gun shows I go to here in Florida.It shoots good in all 4 of my Enfields.Shoots under 1 inch in the one I built for my hunting buddy.

swingset
May 14, 2003, 02:37 AM
Congrats on your new Enfield. As an Enfield collector, I always love to see someone enjoy one for the first time. They are accurate, sturdy and history-soaked rifles with much to like!

FWIW, the South African surplus is non-corrosive, and accurate, hence it's popularity amongst shooters, but it's all dried up now.

Nearly ALL other surplus ammo for the .303 out there is corrosive, including DAC44, Greek HXP & the Port. stuff. Treat ANY unknown ammo as corrosive and follow your shooting with windex or soapy water down the bore and you'll never have a problem.

Now you need a No1, a No5 & a 2A1 to round out your collection. I'd suggest a No4mk1T sniper, but that's quite a nugget to cough up (ask me how I know!).

Johnny Guest
May 14, 2003, 01:07 PM
"It's a '44 No.4 Mk1 . . . ." Exactly the one I bought from Southern Ohio Guns, about eleven years back. Heckuva shooter. I worked up a load with the Sierra flat base 180 and 4320 powder that shoots almost exactly to the sight graduations. (Closer than I can hold, anyway.)

Not as well thought-of in the USA as the Springfield and the 1917, this rifle is possibly the BEST military bolt gun ever produced.

I fell in love with the type some years back, using a pal's rifle and a coffee can full of old milsurp ammo. I got down prone with a rest and was making hits on various little bushes at 400 and 500 yards, across a railroad cut. Fascinating!

Best,
Johnny

9mmepiphany
May 14, 2003, 05:38 PM
the south african PMP is excellent, is bress caseed and boxer primed...when you find a good price, buy at least half a case.

ShaiVong
May 14, 2003, 10:00 PM
Anyone have any instructions on how to use that rear flip up sight? Not sure how to use gradients.

Andrew Wyatt
May 15, 2003, 12:02 AM
the L type flip up?


the 300 yard aperature is zeroed for 300 yards witht the bayonet on, 400 with it off.

the 600 yard aperature is zeroed for 600 yards with the bayonet OFF. 500 with it on.

Byron Quick
May 15, 2003, 01:39 AM
Love mine. Don't shoot it near enough, though.

seeker_two
May 15, 2003, 10:02 AM
And don't forget the S&B ammo. My sporterized Enfield loves it, and you don't have to worry about corrosion.

Johnny Guest
May 15, 2003, 10:53 AM
Many of the No. 4 rifles were re-fit with the "L" sight, as described by Andrew wyatt above.

The original No 4 Mk I had a really nice (and expensive-to-make) micrometer click sight. There was a 300 yard battle sight with the sight in "down" position. When flipped up, the numbers correspond to yardage settings for the 174 grain Mark VII ball ammo. In my fairly limited experience, the numbers are amazingly close to real life.

If you DO get into reloading the .303, two items of interest - - -

Sierra has begun producing their fine Match King bullets for .303 in the 173 or 174 (?) weight, to correspond to military sights. The MK bullets are not cheap by any means, but they are EXCELLENT in uniformity. Please note, this is NOT a hunting bullet, though.

All the military Enfield/SMLE rifles were produced with very generous space in the shoulder area, to provide some fudge factor for very dirty chambers under battlefield conditions. (Just look at a fired case, compared with a new, loaded cartridge.) This means that if the case if full length resized, it is only good for one full power reload. Any more, and the handloader risks case separation, which is very annoying, and COULD be dangerous.

The easy cure for this problem is to neck size ONLY. Cases last for several full power reloads this way. The only draw back is that such reloads can (probably) only be counted upon to work in the rifle in which the case was originally fired.

Redding, for one company, makes a nice neck size die, and it works well. Standard dies can give very decent results, if you back out the FL die to where it does not touch the shoulder of the fired case during resizing.

Best of luck - - -
Johnny

Mike Irwin
May 15, 2003, 11:17 AM
Midway recently had a sale on surplus .303 ammo for pretty good prices.

IIRC it was Yugo, and is corrosive.

I picked up a box, but I forget how many rounds...

9mmepiphany
May 15, 2003, 11:54 AM
does anyone know where to get enfield stripper clips without having to buy the rounds (usually corrosive) with it. i have plenty of ammo but no clips.

johnny guest - interesting about the MK bullets, i may have to get some dies and start reloading to see what the enfield is really capable of.

Johnny Guest
May 15, 2003, 03:41 PM
The NRA booklet on the Enfield Rifles, mostly a compilation of articles from the American Rifleman magazine, is very worth having. I see it at gun shows, and you can order it from NRA Publicaitons Service. It shows some very interesting accuracy tips for the No. 4 rifle, including bedding information. Haven't tried it yet, myself, though.

An armory stock, decently shooting No. 4 is not necessarily the ne plus ultra in tight groups, but it IS surprisingly easy to shoot well. It is a mass-produced, really-rough-duty, battle rifle, after all, intended to hold together under adverse conditions, while roundly thrashing the enemies of the realm.

Make sure you're consistently on target, with the windage properly set, and then go as far back as you can manage. Set up some silhouette targets, or just sheets of cardboard, and give it a try. As mentioned above, a well-defined target at 400 yards is not beyond capabilities of the the rifle and milsurp ammo. It was conceived, not for sporting use, but to make adversaries cease and desist activities contrary to Britian's interests . . . .

Best,
Johnny

Devonai
May 15, 2003, 06:10 PM
Rather than starting a new thread, I'll post this here.

I have a chance to get one of those Ishapore .308 2A1 Enfields for $160. The only problem is that there's a scope mount attached. It is embedded into the stripper guide and screwed (drilled and tapped) into the front of the receiver. Can this be removed without damaging the receiver? If so, how easy is it to find those 12-round magazines?

ShaiVong
May 15, 2003, 08:57 PM
Got to shoot my Enfield for the first time today too!

Wow, that thing is a lot of rifle. A mankiller if there ever was one.

I was really suprised at the recoil, it didnt bother me in the least, firing from prone (no bench). I think it recoiled less than a 270 or 308.. It was more like a hard shove rather than a sharp kick, I fired 15 rounds from that, probably 50 12ga rounds, 30 carbine and 30-30 rounds... Not the slightest hint of soreness or brusing..

At the range i dialed the L sight down as far as i could, and it was still significantly 'higher' than the sight in its 'down' position, with the much larger aperature.

In the down position it's almost a ghost ring...

The flip up section has a little dial on the top that clicks up, on the left side its marked 2 4 6 8 10 12, and the snaps line right up to those, on the right its marked 3 5 7 9 11 13

How do these numbers relate to yardage?

Lone Star
May 16, 2003, 07:23 AM
For hunting, Norma, Federal, and Winchester all offer good ammo. Remington's 180 grain bullet is a roundnose, which may not feed as well in some rifles, and loses velocity sooner than the streamlined Winchester .303 in 180 grain, which is close enough to Mk. VII ball to use the sights well.

My present SMLE is a No. 4 Mk.II. Made in Nov., 1952, it has the micro click rear sight. I think the two-leaf sight was a wartime substitute only.

Keep in mind when buying these rifles that they came in several stock lengths. The toe of the stock usually is marked "R" for regular, "L" for "Long", down to "B" for "Bantam". Most modern American men need the regular or long stock.

Learn to work the bolt rapidly at the shoulder and see how many accurate shots you can fire in a minute. When you gain proficiency, you can be thankful that you weren't some German or Jap or North Korean or Kenyan terrorist who saw these rifles from the wrong end. When you get good at this, bet some lever action fan that you can shoot as fast or faster than he can...:)

Lone Star

9mmepiphany
May 16, 2003, 12:02 PM
shaivong - the markings are yardage marks, that is why they alternate from side to side.

after you get you "battlefield zero" set up, you can "dial in" different ranges...this assumes you are shooting the load/bullet the sight is set for. you just click your peepsight up to the correct marking, align the front sight and squeeze off.

just a note: the markings are in actually yards, the english didn't mark off in metres during the war.

remember you don't need to lift the buttstock off your shoulder while working the bolt. another tip is to squeeze off with you middle finger while leaving your index finger extended along the stock. as the shot lights off, you flick up the bolt handle with the index finger to begin the cycling of the bolt

Andrew Wyatt
May 16, 2003, 04:02 PM
with the dial sight bottomed out, it's about a 75 yard zero.



http://members.optushome.com.au/lee-enfield/Sighting2.html

gives information on how to sight in a lee enfield.


i leave the small aperature micrometer sight in the 200 yard position, and flip it up when i have to shoot at anything beyond about 75 yards.

ShaiVong
May 16, 2003, 06:35 PM
Does anyone have an idea where i can buy a set of Enfield N4M1 front blade sights?

Andrew Wyatt
May 16, 2003, 06:39 PM
gunparts company sells them. they don't seem to recongnice that there are different kinds, though.


buy like five or six and you'll probably get the one you need.

Sactown
May 16, 2003, 07:38 PM
-9mmepiphany

does anyone know where to get enfield stripper clips without having to buy the rounds (usually corrosive) with it. i have plenty of ammo but no clips.

I purchased mine from Northridge International. http://www.northridgeinc.com/ntge-288.htm I bought the set of 100. They're finished in some kinda rough phosphate finish. I smoothed out the insides with 000 steel wool and they've been trouble free. If you don't get some before the next Nor Cal shoot, let me know, I think I can part with some on an indefinite loan basis. :D

Devonai
May 17, 2003, 08:46 AM
Well, I gave up on the Ishapore and bought a .303 MkIV. I was hoping some kind soul could help me further identify it's origins. It is sn #140XX, marked "M 1944" on the stock band, and marked "No4Mk1" on the left side of the receiver. The barrel is marked "303B UK" and "CAI ST ALBANS VT." I know that's the import company. There are no other markings on it besides stamping codes.

Also, does anyone have some good internet resources for parts and accessories? Northridge is good, but they don't have enough pictures for my high-falootin' needs.

9mmepiphany
May 19, 2003, 12:54 PM
sactown - thanks, i went to look at the site and the quantity discount is substantial at 40%...but i wouldn't know what to do with 100 clips

devonai - i'm certainly not an expert, and i don't have the references at hand to look up the seriel number, but...

m 1944 - would be the date of manufacture
no4mk1 - is model number 4, mark 1 (as opposed to the mark 1* or mark 2)
303b uk - would be the calibre
cai st albans vt - century arms international, st. albans vermont

ShaiVong
May 19, 2003, 05:12 PM
Well after my first real range session with the old Enfield, i have to say that I'm extremely impressed.

I put 50 rounds of the cheapest cheaper than dirt ammo i could get my hands on, and it worked pretty good. Judging by the few really execellent groups i got, i'm sure 50% of the inconsistancies were from me firing prone, shaking like a crack addict. That and 100 yards is pretty much the limit of my vision, and it was hard to see the center of the target at that range.

At 100 yards, with the flip up sight cranked all the way down (~75 yard setting), i was impacting about 2-3 inches high, with a 6 o'clock hold. I really screwed up about 15 rounds wondering WTH was wrong when i started shooting off paper when i adjusted my windage, and put the front sight guard on at the same time.. I forgot that you adjust the front sight opposate of how you adjust your rear (Drift right to move POI left etc..). Even still, it was a great time. I have a red mark on the top of my shoulder, and its still sore, but no brusing yet :p .

I did get one group that you could put a nickle over, for which I'm very proud :D.

I'm going to have to buy a few more boxes of assorted ammo, and see what shoots closest to military spec.

God I love this rifle. 5 stripper clips in the mail, and a bayonet too :evil:

Best $120 i ever spent. She kicks like a 30-30, and hits like a jackhammer!

Andrew Wyatt
May 19, 2003, 05:43 PM
get a bayonet and mount it and then see where it shoots.


enfields were zeroed with the bayonet on.

ShaiVong
May 19, 2003, 07:01 PM
Yeah im expecting the zero to move with a bayonet.. But then again, if i have to fix a bayonet, i dont think my target is going to be 100 yards away! Are we talking feet or inches in POI here?

cool45auto
May 19, 2003, 07:38 PM
ShaiVong, where did you order the stripper clips and bayonet from and if I can ask, how much?

ShaiVong
May 20, 2003, 03:37 PM
Right From Here (http://www.northridgeinc.com/)


I don't remember what i paid for clips, but the bayont was like 19.95. Spike bayonet was cheaper.

Andrew Wyatt
May 20, 2003, 04:14 PM
most likely inches.


I haven't shot my rifle with the bayonet on it yet, but i rezeroed it without it, because I'd rather not have to worry about not being zeroed most of the time.

ShaiVong
May 20, 2003, 04:42 PM
*nod*

cool45auto
May 20, 2003, 05:38 PM
Thanks, Shai.:)

ShaiVong
May 20, 2003, 05:51 PM
WHen it comes right down to it, you want your rifle to shoot as accurately with the least ammount of parts right? You can loose your bayonet, or have it broken. If your rifle is zeroed WITH it, then your at a disadvantage.

If you zero your rifle WITHOUT the bayonet, then all you have to do if you want to make a critical shot is take it off, and loose it :D

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