[Min]

Which would you choose to put the BG down.

I'd go with the .357 Magnum.

[FTF]

Pretty even. Of course, with these two, it comes down to shot placement.

With the .45 you have 7+1.

With a .357 you have 6... unless it's 357sig.

.357 is the textbook answer as the better man-stopper. Thank god for these original thread ideas!:p

[shermacman]

I prefer to use a .22 through the tear duct at fifty yards...

[Min]

I've been out of the gun forum loop for a long while, and just getting back into it with a possible purchase of a Smith and Wesson 28-2 shortly.

Sorry if this topic has been done to death, just something that occurred to me to ask at the moment.

[FTF]

That's an older gun... nice though.

I would not feel at all undergunned with it, that's for sure. My .357 is a 6" barrel and I have no problems... a 4" barrel I wouldn't be worried about either.

Nice thing is that you can probably practice with .38spl... practicing with .45 kills me.

Either one will kill about as well if needed. Both are fun to blast paper with too :D

[johnny blaze]

With the 357, I have 7 rounds.
With my 45 I have 10 rounds.
I would go with the 45.
Both are good rounds.

[jlh26oo]

Sweet! (usually it's 4-5 pp before I get in).


If you are talking one shot- straight .357mag vs .45acp; ignoring factors like capacity, concealability, size, barrel length (~4" vs 4"); I'd rather it be a .357mag (assuming stoutest load) than similar .45acp. But you gotta figure they're close (on humans).

When you adjust for the peripherals, I'll take a .45acp for capacity/size, flatness,overpenetration (if you go balls out the 1600fps stuff that you need to blow away .45acp)*; then you'll have the people come in and say well one or the other, a revolver/auto fits my hand better so that's what I'll take- skirting the issue. But what I thik you're asking is, one shot vs one shot of the other-

Shot for shot: .357mag > .45acp

mags for cylinder, & all things considered: .45acp >/= .357mag

pocket carry: .357mag >> .45acp


*imo/ymmv <- protects me from flame

[RandomMan]

'Bout equal in my opinion. A 125-grain JHP .357 out of a 4" gun is very effective, so is a 230-grain JHP .45 out of a 4-5" gun. Is one better than the other as a man stopper? Statistics show that .357 has a slight edge.

For putting the bad guy down? 12-gauge. :neener:

I can't decide honestly! I'd feel just fine either one pointed at the BG and squeezing the trigger.

-Rob

[10-Ring]

Let's see, I have a USP 45, Colt XSE, a S&W mod 19 and a Colt Python to choose from....:scrutiny: Honestly, I'd go w/ any of the above and feel equally protected.

[sicario103]

The only way I would get a revolver for SD, would be if I get it as a backup. I don't care if I can shoot down a helicopter with it, I would never trust a gun with only 6 shots or less. IMHO, for SD, larger mag capacity (even by one- which can save your life) should outweigh all factors.... ofcourse assuming you have a decent caliber (9mm and up). And the fact that you can reload quicker, easier and conceal it (gun and extra mags) with less bulk... it's a no brainer.
So .357 mag Vs. .45 - .45 is the best way to go. In my opinion, revolvers should not be considered as a primary weapon for self-defense.... I know I'll get flamed for this but whether you like it or not revolvers are just plain obsolete.

[BigO01]

sicario103 interesting opinion you have there sir , I have a few 1911's that are extremely reliable and would and do trust my life to , as well a 40 S&W with all that being said I have yet to ever ever have my 357's fail to fire , factorys , reloads , it just doesn't matter they have always gone bang when I wanted them to .

I only wish I could say the same for the autos .

Reliability sir , will never be something that will be obsolete .

[roscoe]

I know I'll get flamed for this but whether you like it or not revolvers are just plain obsolete.
Uhh - yeah, with an opinion like that, flame on!

[jlh26oo]

And six rounds of .357mag just isn't cutting it, what is your opinion of compact .45's? Like a g36 which holds 7 rounds? Is that just enough, and six is just not enough?

THen what about 8 round cylinders? Do those then make autos holding less than that now obsolete?

Just curious. Revolvers aren't my cup either, but that's a pretty narrowminded take.

[.38 Special]

IMHO, for SD, larger mag capacity (even by one- which can save your life) should outweigh all factors....
Oh. Well then I guess the 100 round Calico .22 must be the ultimate self defense pistol. *snicker*

"17+1? Ha! My life is 82 times safer than yours!":neener:

[Panthera Tigris]

The Taurus 608 .357 holds 8 rounds. I'll take a .357 over a .45.

I can't reply to the comment about revolvers being obsolete, because I'll say something uncivil.

[sicario103]

Originally Posted by BigO01

I have yet to ever ever have my 357's fail to fire , factorys , reloads , it just doesn't matter they have always gone bang when I wanted them to .

I only wish I could say the same for the autos .

Reliability sir , will never be something that will be obsolete .

I agree that reliability is important. Also, this reliability issue of revolvers being better than autoloaders is overly exaggerated. Nowaday, a decent auto coupled with the right ammunition is just as reliable as any. Neither one of my Beretta's has ever jammed on me except after firing about 100+ rounds without cleaning it. And up to now (knock on wood) no factory round has ever failed to go bang bang for me.... and I'm a real high volume shooter.

Originally Posted by jlh2600

And six rounds of .357mag just isn't cutting it, what is your opinion of compact .45's? Like a g36 which holds 7 rounds? Is that just enough, and six is just not enough?

THen what about 8 round cylinders? Do those then make autos holding less than that now obsolete?

To me, 7 rounds (for argument sake, I'll skip the fact that you can go 7+1) is much better than just 6. One extra bullet can be the difference between life and death. In self-defense, having higher capacity even if by just one greatly improves your chances. Now, higher capacity revolvers would be good too but it still wouldn't cut it for me beecause its way too bulky and slow to reload (even with speed loaders) compared to a semi, so coming back to my argument: .45 > .357mag.

[sicario103]

Originally Posted by .38 Special

Oh. Well then I guess the 100 round Calico .22 must be the ultimate self defense pistol. *snicker*

Hmm, well if you read my first reply in this thread again, you'll see the part where I wrote "...Assuming you have a decent caliber (9mm and up)." *snicker*

[berettashotgun]

"Which would you choose to put the BG down?"
Whichever one was closer. I shoot a 45 (& 40,357sig,380,25,22,9mm,32acp,44,480,460,but not a 500-yet:D ) I'd much rather be putting the BG down with the 357, but in a shootout, the para P-14 with win R45ST is my choice.;)

[rockstar.esq]

"Nice thing is that you can probably practice with .38spl... practicing with .45 kills me." Dude, seriously are you really attempting to declare the recoil of the .45ACP excessive compared to the .357 MAGNUM? Check the figures because I just don't see a case where that seems reasonable unless you put an 8" .357 mag against a derringer .45 ACP!

The reliability of revolvers is WAY overstated. I've had two that gave me fits due to worn out springs. The same thing has happened to me with autos for the same reason.

The .45 in general is easier to conceal as autos are generally flat sided and smooth.

Capacity is another aspect that goes to hyperbole quickly (the calico point made earlier).

Accuracy is realative to shooter performance which is WAY too complicated to answer for everyone.

I have a .45 ACP which is my regular carry piece however my .44SPl rides freqently and I feel well equiped with either.

So my vote goes to the .45 ACP just because I favor mass to velocity at close range, with a nomination that you all go out and buy a .44 special so that you'll indulge in the sweet joy that is a bulldog!

[jlh26oo]

(for argument sake, I'll skip the fact that you can go 7+1)

(I'll skip the fact that the 36's 7 includes the chambered round (6 +1).



I agree with your position that all things considered, I'll take .45acp- not as much for capacity, but that and weight, size, shape, reloads, and reliability = revolvers in most quality autos (read my first post in this thread- there are two different questions that could be answered here); but it just comes off as troll's bait to say the revolver is obsolete (not that you are such, just that statement does).

[jlh26oo]

The reliability of revolvers is WAY overstated. I've had two that gave me fits due to worn out springs. The same thing has happened to me with autos for the same reason.


This I agree with. People use "100%" reliable for revolvers, it's just not true. Of course there are guys here who have NEVER had a failure to fire, ever. Nor have I with my autos- doesn't mean they don't fail. And ironically, before I started shooting autos, the two revolvers I shot (less than half of the combined total round count I have through autos now) were the only guns I've ever had ANY kind of problem with. No machine is 100%. I think they are more reliable in different ways maybe.

[RandomMan]

One extra bullet can be the difference between life and death. In self-defense, having higher capacity even if by just one greatly improves your chances.

By that logic we should all be carrying AR based pistols with 100 round drum magazines.

[Zeke Menuar]

Here goes the flame wars again.

The real issue here is revolver vs auto, not 357 vs 45.

Comparing a revolver to an auto is a stupid arguement. Different engineering, different fire control systems. The 357 Magnum is a great round. A 357 revolver isn't a bad choice for whatever shooting needs to be done, but there are far better choices out there. For me a 45ACP 1911 or XD45 beats a wheelgun hands down.

With that I leave you with:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/ZekeMenuar1/thread_stupid.jpg

This is my opinion. Your opinion may vary

ZM

[jlh26oo]

.357mag >>>> Supercat > .45acp

[Panthera Tigris]

Actually for me, recoil on a .357 and for that matter a .44 magnum is less than a .45.

Why? With the revolvers all I have to do is grip tight and fire. With the .45, I have brass flying back into my face, sometimes hitting me in the head and cutting me open. I can hold onto a 44 magnum and fire it easier than I can a .45.

[jlh26oo]

With the .45, I have brass flying back into my face, sometimes hitting me in the head and cutting me open.

Wow, your .45 sucks BALLS. :uhoh:

[BigO01]

I agree that reliability is important. Also, this reliability issue of revolvers being better than autoloaders is overly exaggerated. Nowaday, a decent auto coupled with the right ammunition is just as reliable as any. Neither one of my Beretta's has ever jammed on me except after firing about 100+ rounds without cleaning it. And up to now (knock on wood) no factory round has ever failed to go bang bang for me.... and I'm a real high volume shooter.

But as you say except this , or that and it is dependable with FACTORY ammo .

I have to make no such exceptions with my S&W 586 or my Taurus 669 , S&W 19 or even a cheap old Rossi 972 all in 357 .

You think 100% reliability is overly exaggerated ?

I certainly hope when you say 100+ rounds it is way over the 100 round count before that 9 chokes on you , I regularly shoot 300-500 rounds with my 1911's in an afternoon at the range without a single malfunction or any maintenance to the gun at the range . If I didn't the gun would be off to a Smith to have the thing fixed , and still I often keep a 357 by my bedside or in the glove box because I KNOW not THINK it will work when I need it to .

[sicario103]

BigO01- Hmm.. yeah I can say it way over 100 rounds... closing on 170-190 around. The ammo that I used to use at the range are real cheap @ss reloads. They were so cheap that you can notice the difference between each of them when you shoot at metal targets...they were unevenly loaded... you can even say carelessly done. Try to shoot 100+ rounds with that with any of your guns and you'll have a malfunction- take my word for it. I eventually stopped using them after one of those rounds messed up my barrel (It expanded (bubbled) my barrel). After that, all I use are factory rounds. You see back home, everything from guns, accesories and ammo is freaking expensive.

So yeah, I consider an auto just as reliable as any wheel gun.

I said obsolete because you don't see any police agency or military use them anymore. Of all the people that I know that carry guns... and that's a hell lot of them (I'm originally from Venezuela) only 2 of them carry wheels. There were quite a few of them that used to carry revolvers but have switched to autos. And the ones that kept their wheel guns after the switch, they keep them at home and carry their autos.

Originally Posted by BigO01

But as you say except this , or that and it is dependable with FACTORY ammo .

I have to make no such exceptions with my S&W 586 or my Taurus 669 , S&W 19 or even a cheap old Rossi 972 all in 357 .

I don't use any type of reloads anymore and I ONLY carry factory loads for SD.

By the way.... you say that you shoot 300-500 rounds with your 1911's without any problems, right? So, would you not agree with me that autos are just as reliable as a revolver? Well, you just agreed with me that (since autos are easier to carry, reload and conceal) revolvers are in fact obsolete.

[Moonclips]

...revolvers are in fact obsolete.

Yes, indeed. But I just dare the BG to sneak up on me when I have these pieces of obsolete metal implements with me.

http://fernando.smugmug.com/photos/44281143-M.jpg

http://fernando.smugmug.com/photos/46013392-M.jpg

[ozwyn]

With good ammunition 3 rounds of either caliber with good shot placement should do the trick.

They both are damn good at what they do. Buy both, and don;t get drawn into silly "one caliber vs another" worries.

If you do your job of picking the a good hollowpoint and putting them on target well, either round will carry the day.

that's my .02

[.38 Special]

Hmm, well if you read my first reply in this thread again, you'll see the part where I wrote "...Assuming you have a decent caliber (9mm and up)." *snicker*

Ah, I see you took my post seriously. FWIW: I'm never serious with a troll. :neener:

[MCgunner]

Yep, done to death. Much as I like my .357s, even a K frame is bulky in an IWB. I carry my Ruger P90 some, but never my .357s, although I often carry a .38 snub.

I've been out of the gun forum loop for a long while, and just getting back into it with a possible purchase of a Smith and Wesson 28-2 shortly.

Just my opinion, mind you, but the 28 is HUGE for CCW. If you are carrying concealed, what's another 2" of barrel in the scheme of things? a 2" gun KILLS a hot .357 load. It will perform much better and your sight radius will let you place it better out of a 4" gun and I can't imagine it'd be that much tougher to carry or slower on the draw in such a big framed gun.

My ideal carry .357, and I don't own one, would be a SP101 with 3" tube. Comfortable IWB, accurate, and powerful.

Pardon me if someone already stated this. I didn't read all the post yet, didn't wanna get tangled up in yet another caliber war. :rolleyes:

[EddieCoyle]

With the .45, I have brass flying back into my face, sometimes hitting me in the head and cutting me open.

Dude, where are you putting your face?

[MCgunner]

Yep, read over it, typical responses. It's like de-ja-vu all over again, well, except for the .45 that's pelting the guy in the face. ROFLMAO! Get that ejection port opened up! Or, just buy a Ruger P90.

[SWMAN]

Man, choosing between a .357 and .45 auto is a tough choice. Both can do the job. I've carried both and both are favorities along with the .44 magnum. When I carry a revolver, its .357, an auto, mostly .45 acp. For hunting, the .357 gets the nod, as well as using .38 specials. I guess the .357 is a bit more flexible in the loads it will shoot. I've even been told that it will shoot .38 supers safely. If I had to choose, I like the 1911 as my first choice in handgun w/.45 acp , but the .357 as a caliber.:)

[defiant73a]

Much as I like my .357s, even a K frame is bulky in an IWB.
Must be your holster (or maybe your build). I have no trouble comfortably carrying large revolvers concealed (up to and including a five-inch Model 27)--a three-inch Model 65LS (a K-frame) carries like a dream.

It's very hard to make accurate generalizations about concealed carried because are there are just too many variables.

[115grfmj]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Whatever works for you, why does one have to be better than the other.

My 686+ (.357 4") will flatten you, but I wouldn't want to be hit by any 45 either.

[Brian Williams]

GeeWhiz, carry both :what: and shoot with both hands:eek: , swap hands at each reload. :D :evil:

They are both good rounds and have proven track records along with the platform that is used for each. The biggest problem is not the cartridge, load out, platform or gun, the holster it rides in but it is the software holding it.
A smooth operator with a measly 380 single shot has a better chance over a slob with a glockaTaurii,SIG-hk'colterS&W semi-belt-fed-revoloader :D

Get one of each and shoot, get training and KNOW what you are capable of.


OBTW a wise old man once told me the best defense is to not be there...

b
<><

[GungHo]

With the .45, I have brass flying back into my face, sometimes hitting me in the head and cutting me open.
Um... ever consider tuning that extractor?

[LightningJoe]

Revolvers aren't obsolete. Maybe obsolescent. Still, what's looks better on paper may not provide an advantage in a gunfight. If you're focusing on caliber or type of action, you're probably looking in the wrong place.

[Panthera Tigris]

Um... ever consider tuning that extractor?

Not worth the effort for me. I'm concentrating on learning the shotgun now anyway.

[Heavy Barrel]

How do you "learn" a shotgun?:confused:

[jlh26oo]

How do you "learn" a shotgun?

I suppose how you would learn anything else; practice shooting it? ymmv.

[XDRocks]

357 or 45.... both make a big hole resulting in massive blood loss.
Both calibers are available in both revolver and auto. I would take either but I would settle for a 22 LR if I had nothing else. :D

[boomstik45]

Again? Didn't I just see this very same "argument" on another thread?

[Plink]

Between the two, I'd choose the .45. For the same reasons as I posted in the .44 spl/.45 thread. It's been proven effective. Whether it's more effective or less, than the .357 magnum isn't what I'm concerned with. The fact that it's a low pressure round is my issue. If you've ever had to shoot a .357 magnum or any high pressure round in an enclosed area, you understand why I choose a low pressure one.

[Eightball]

On a "round-only" basis, .357 has more power, more pentration, and just works better. Looking at ballistic gels further backs this up.

It doesn't have to be a "revo vs 1911" thing---you could have a Desert Eagle. Though, in my revo, I've got 7; the average 1911 can't beat that by much (but I love 1911's). for now, I'd use what I've got.

It boils down to this: .357 is a more powerful round, but .45 is just powerful. Both will do the job equally well--whatever you shoot will be just as dead.

And, just to say it: revo's are obsolete. That doesn't mean they aren't effective, fun, reliable, etc. Autos are more advanced; they are also effective and fun, and provide higher capacity and better use of space--but they can't work if you have a dud round. That is the whole argument in a nutshell.

[Confederate]

I have both autoloaders and revolvers and think either should be able to do the job. Revolvers, however, can be shot limp-wristed and with a bad or weak primer can be tried again without clearing the weapon. If only one shot can be fired, you're likely to get a better one-shot stop with a .357 125-gr. JHP. Going up to .357 158-gr. JHP, you'll be better off with a .45.

The semi-auto is a better choice when firing multiple shots (if it works flawlessly). If a BG hits the barrel just as you pull the trigger, the autoloader can malfunction. Many swear by their autoloader's reliability, but I've never been to the range without seeing someone have a jam.

My most reliable auto is a Smith & Wesson 645 and I would choose it indoors in my own home. Outdoors and camping, I'd take my Ruger Security-Six .357. The latter might overpenetrate indoors, but it's fine everywhere else. I also see many cases of self defense in newspaper and other reports each year, and I just don't find that high-capacity has made much of a difference, if any. But I do hear of occasional jams.

Police work is another thing entirely, but for personal defense, primarily outdoors and on the road, the .357 is hard to beat.

[Plink]

Folks, just because something "newer" comes along, doesn't make everything before it obsolete. I hear the same arguement against the 1911's from the techno crowd. This is usually the same crowd that thinks hanging all sorts of doodads, lasers, tritium sights and other "tacticool" stuff from their guns somehow make up for lack of basic marksmanship.

A revolver has it's limitations due to it's design. All handguns are a compromise in their own way. For a lot of folks, those limitations don't matter because the gun fills their particular need. I'm not a huge revolver fan myself, but I own a few because they fill a particular need.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is our self defense needs aren't much different than they have ever been. Poking a hole in a bad guy to save our life is a very basic thing. Any gun and ammo combination that can do it effectively will work. Everything else is just marketing.

Remember, the gun companies are in the business of selling you a new gun. Since guns don't just wear out and get replaced regularly like many of the other items we own, they try to sell you a new one by making you dislike the one you already have.

"It can survive being frozen in ice, dropped from airplanes, ran over by bulldozers, and a bunch of other things you don't do to your gun anyway. Can your gun do that? That's why you need to buy ours!"
Sound familiar to anyone?

Keep it basic, keep it simple, and learn to shoot it extremely well. All the ammo capacity and tacticool doodads in the world won't make up for poor marksmanship. Good marksmanship makes everything else unimportant anyway.

[Panthera Tigris]

If we're ever in a EOTWAWK scenario, and parts for all of the autos become scarce when recoil springs, magazine springs, etc go bad, revolvers won't be so obsolete anymore. Yeah they have parts too, but I think wheelguns will last longer than most autos if you can't find replacement parts for them.

[sicario103]

I just want to know why anyone would say that high capacity mags make's no real difference?

For example, in my country, kidnapping is a big trend now. Say you're walking to your car late at night in an isolated area where getting help or being heard is unlikely. All of a sudden, ambush.... a number of armed guys comes at you. You draw your firearm and all hell breaks loose. First of, reloading during shootouts are unlikely but not unheard off because normally it (shootout) doesn't last long and BG's don't normally carry extra loads (unless they are planning something big like a bank job where theres alot of cash). Second, the main goal here is quite obvious: not to get captured (make it to your car and drive off). Now, should you kill one or more of the BG in the process should be considered as a bonus. So would a high capacity mag here not make a big difference? Would it not increase your chances?

The more rounds you can throw or the longer you can keep your fire on the BG gives a better advantage (ofcourse, assuming you're aiming and not just spraying all over the horizon and that you have a decent caliber). Wasn't that one of the main reason for the ban on high capacity mags? To give the cops an advantage?

[cyco668]

Revolvers: "Heavy is good, Heavy is reliable, and if it dosnt work you can always hit them with it"
The Autoloader forum is full of posts talking about problems with jams, stovepipes, failure-to-feed. etc. It's full of advice about getting new mags, tuning the extractor, opening up the port, buying new springs, and so forth. Some people are just fine tuning an already excellent product, but it seems most are trying to cure the problems and issues they have with autoloader. The Revolver forum doesn't have many posts about trying to fix such problems.
The only holster I have is for my 10mm (autoloader), no holster for either of my .357's. Speakin' about 10mm's, .45's are obsolete compared to them. How old is that round compared to .357Sigs, .40's, and 10mm's? My 10 (Witness Hunter, btw) has more power and capacity than a .45. I'm not knocking the .45, just don't see why people still rave about it. One more thing about what's "obsolete", Colt introduced .45 in 1911(the year). 357 came out in 1934(?). But autoloaders beat revolvers for CCW. A snub nose .38 doesn't beat a compact 9mm in concealment.

[jlh26oo]

The autoloader forum is full of posts talking about problems with jams, stovepipes, failure-to-feed. etc. It's full of advice about getting new mags, tuning the extractor, opening up the port, buying new springs, and so forth.
I think you're talking about the 1911 forum (look to GT if what you seek are threads re:auto reliability/simplicity/durability/maintenance >/= that of revolvers), ymmv.


...and parts for all of the autos become scarce when recoil springs, magazine springs, etc go bad, revolvers won't be so obsolete anymore.
HELL yeah! What are these things you speak of, anwyays? SPRINGS?! ... and p-p-PARTS?! Sounds like trouble to me. I think we can all safely assume revolvers are simply a singular block of motionless steel; ymmv.


Within only one page of momentum, the pendulum of ignorance now swings back just as far in the opposite direction, ymmv.

[GotGlock]

Caliber : .45ACP
Bullet : 230gr. Gold Dot JHP
Ballistics : 935fps - 447 ft./lbs. - Glock 37

Caliber : .357 Magnum
Bullet : 125gr. Gold Dot JHP
Velocity: 1600fps - 710 ft./lbs.-4" Ruger GP-100

Drop the .45 down to gain some velocity
Caliber : .45ACP
Bullet : 165gr. JHP
Ballistics : 1325fps - 643 ft./lbs. - 5" 1911

Standard load .357 is still more powerful. And just for ****s and giggles:

Caliber : .44 Magnum
Bullet : 240gr. Gold Dot Soft Point
Ballistics : 1500fps - 1200 ft./lbs. - 6.5" bbl.

9X19 compared to .45
Caliber : 9mm
Bullet : Gold Dot JHP
Ballistics : 124gr @ 1310fps / 473ft. lbs. from a G17.
124 @ 1290fps / 458 ft. lbs. from a G19

473ft/lbs for 9x19, 447ft/lbs for .45ACP

All info borrowed for Doubletapammo.com

[defiant73a]

ME is only a very small portion of the effectiveness continuum, and to merely compare MEs is meaningless. ME/MV sells--unfortunately it doesn't always make for good ammo.

[GotGlock]

But ME is also used for determining a hunting round. Some states require 1000ft/lbs to hunt dear, etc. So it does have a large factor in judging a rounds effectiveness. A .357 magnum dumping 710 ft/lbs of energy COM is going to stop someone better then a .45ACP dumping .447. Granted there is expansion and shot placement, but taking the variables out, i would much rather have a 357 over a .45, I like the 45 round, its a proven manstopper but comparing it to a magnum round is unfair.

[Radjxf]

For those earlier posters who think 6 rounds isn't enough, maybe you should get off the computer and practice shooting? Stop watching so many movies! My only problem with the 357 is the flash, flip, etc are a bit much compared to the more docile .45ACP. Just have a gun handy, learn to shoot accurately and responsibly and you should be set.;)

[2ndamd]

GEEZ! I only carry a 5 shot .357 magnum. I must be undergunned:rolleyes:

[robertbank]

Carry what you shoot best with, practice lots and pray you never have to use the gun on a human.

Best gun and caliber- .357 Mag vs .45acp - answer if you can't shoot either well, neither of them. Find a gun/cartridge combo you shoot well out to 15 yards with and you found the best gun for you.

The only difference between a miss with a .357 mag and a miss with a .45acp is the amount your ears will ring. At that, in the end, you might not care.

Take Care

Bob

[sicario103]

No one has yet answered my question yet. Well, no for SD 6 rounds is not enough nowaday when the world is becoming ever more violent where criminals are sometimes better armed than most law abiding cititzens.

But we're at different schools of thought... I'll leave it at that

[robertbank]

It would be helpful if you could list one real life example where "all hell broke lose" as you describe your scenario. I assume yoou live in a cuontry that is not involved in a local war zone.

Take Care

Bob

[Plink]

But ME is also used for determining a hunting round. Some states require 1000ft/lbs to hunt dear, etc. So it does have a large factor in judging a rounds effectiveness.

It's not a true judge of "effectiveness". What it does is force hunters to use a heavier caliber that's more appropriate to the size of the game, to meet the requirement. But when we're talking rifle cartridges, we're also talking a whole new game. One where velocity actually does contribute to tissue damage, unlike the velocities that handguns operate at.

[Moonclips]

I just want to know why anyone would say that high capacity mags make's no real difference?

For example, in my country, kidnapping is a big trend now. Say you're walking to your car late at night in an isolated area where getting help or being heard is unlikely. All of a sudden, ambush.... a number of armed guys comes at you. You draw your firearm and all hell breaks loose...
Sicario103,
If you park your car in an isolated place where armed goons are liable to jump you at any moment, then, by all means do not carry an obsolete revolver. For that matter, you should not even carry an obsolete 1911. You should carry with you a high-capacity piece with a lot of extra mags for the necessary reloads. And also carry at least one backup piece -- preferably even 2 or 3 more, if possible. And a knife. An armored vest might be a good idea, too.;)

I, unfortunately, live in a blue state where a carry permit is almost out of the realm of possibility. :mad: So I have to be careful when I go out the front door because the squirrel loitering on the front lawn might actually be a BG in disguise waiting for the opportune time to overwhelm me and rob the house. And I have to be alert when I pick up the morning paper on the driveway to keep in the periphery of my vision the Chinese lady practicing tai-chi on her porch, lest she launches some throwing knives at me as soon as I turn my back on her. And those first-graders walking to the school bus stop might actually be carrying Uzis in their backpacks on their way to a Columbine-style school massacre.:neener:

So you really have to careful out there and do not be under-armed. Take care. (Just kidding with you.) :D

[BigO01]

sicario103 if the place I lived in was as bad as you describe above I think even if I had to sell all my guns I would do so and simply move the hell out of there !

Forget the .357 vs the 45 posts on interent forums and spend your time at the real estate and want add section of different countries or just a different city in your country !

[robertbank]

You guys think you have it bad! I played cowboys and indians as a kid. I now live in an area where the population is 50% native. What happens if they decide it is pay back time....:eek:

An MP 5 ain't gonna be enough.

Take Care


Bob

[Confederate]

I think if one is trying to protect one's self from terrorist kidnapping, okay, high-capacity autos may be the way to go. But that's a long way off from proving that revolvers are obsolete. A Ruger Single-Six was used a number of years ago to kill a terroist in Israel during an attack. Magnum ammo was used, but it put down two and killed one.

Autos can still malfunction easier than revolvers, granted, but if one has faith in an auto, it's probably been proven on the range. Still, a revolver is better suited to severe weather changes and generally packs more power in magnum loadings.

Today's autos are far more accurate and reliable than those 30 years ago, but they still haven't made revolvers obsolete. Far from it. There are many people alive today because they had .25ACP autos, too.

I'm just more comfortable with revolvers and especially like .357s.

[robertbank]

I am not so sure you are correct when you say revolvers are much more reliable than autos. I rather suspect, if anything, the opposite is true. One of the primary reasons why the US Army went to the auto back in 1911 was the reliability factor ie the autos were more reliable. This is covered in Hatcher's book on Revolvers & Pistols and he was Chief of Ordnace at the time. Add to that, the speed in which reloads can be undertaken, and the auto jumps well ahead of the revolvers.

Take Care

Bob

[sicario103]

Originally Posted by robertbank

I assume yoou live in a cuontry that is not involved in a local war zone.

Hmmm could you please describe "local war zone"? There's no actual war or any foreign occupation right now in Venezuela. But I can say that we are in a kind of war zone. The living conditions back home are horrendous... Crime waves, political/economical instability, guerrilla (border), you name it. We're at around 45000-50000 crime related deaths in about 5-6 years and climbing fast (and this is only from what was actually confirmed... God knows how many more there are). There are more armed criminals than legal ones.... and they are much better armed.

You say why in hell don't I leave that place..... Well, I currently live in Canada but I travel south at least 1-2 times a year and some times I stay a year or more. Why?.... It's home... family...

I guess I do have a biased opinion, but because of what's happening there, I have good reasons for favoring high capacity auto? :)

[robertbank]

Well high cap mags are not legal in Canada so I assume you are talking about what you maintain in Venuzuela. In that case a Para P- 14 with two mags would do nicely along with an MP-5, and one hand grenade. Don't laugh at the latter suggestion. If you are grabbed offer the boys a choice either let you go or we all go!

Take Care

Bob

[sicario103]

All assault rifles are legal only for the military. Though getting it is not hard at all if you got the cash.... ofcourse illegally. I was offered by a friend uzi's and fal's.... I had the cash but didn't see the point if I cant carry it.... If I had a big piece of land then it would have been a different story....

The president started again to allow CCW's ( since last year- everyone had to do everything from cratch...apply... fees etc) but not long guns neither for SD or hunting.

Well, the government bought 100000 ak's from Russia.... maybe i should think about it haha...

[strambo]

No one has yet answered my question yet. Well, no for SD 6 rounds is not enough nowaday when the world is becoming ever more violent where criminals are sometimes better armed than most law abiding cititzens.
In the US violent crime has been declining, kidnapping like you describe is rare. If your threat assessment for Venezuela is correct, then your choice of high capacity auto is sound for while you are there. I'm assuming your round count in Canada is...zero correct? Do you have a Canadian CCW, is there such a thing?

In the US, I believe stastitically, the average # of rounds fired in a police shootout (by the cop) is like 5. Keep in mind, this includes some of the very high volume shootings which bring up the average. Still at or below a revolver payload and citizen shooting will average a lot less, but I haven't seen a study. The most often # of rounds fired in a citizen self defense situation is actually 0 since the criminals usually beat feet.

[Inline_6]

Quote: jlh26oo

If the revolver is "obsolete"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And six rounds of .357mag just isn't cutting it, what is your opinion of compact .45's? Like a g36 which holds 7 rounds? Is that just enough, and six is just not enough?

THen what about 8 round cylinders? Do those then make autos holding less than that now obsolete?

Just curious. Revolvers aren't my cup either, but that's a pretty narrowminded take.

I don't think revolvers are dead. I also think the capacity of any weapon is less important than being able to get good hits. Of course... with regard to handguns, they are all underpowered and unreliable as man-stoppers.

That said, I'd rather carry my 45ACP revolver than the 15+1 .40 Glock I am forced to carry.

[Plastic Cowboy]

a little off topic but HOLY CRAP Zeke!!!
Either you are very good at photoshop or that is the biggest damn mutant cat in the whole world!!!!

...so which is it??:confused:


You could put a saddle on that thing and ride him around like He-Man on his Battle Cat (remember the old 80's cartoon?;) )

[Oregongundude]

This tread is like comparing apples to oranges. However, I agree that the automatics are far superior due to the larger round capacity. Wheelguns are good, but I have seen some that hold 8 rounds without a reload. Now that being said, here's an algebra question?

If I shoot someone 8 times with a .357 magnum revolver. X=8
If I shoot someone 14 times with a XD .45 acp. Y=14

Would X, or Y cause the BG to bleed to death faster. Of course, I left out some important information which bullets were used and wound cavity generated by the rounds. I'll leave that up to your imagination. Anyway, the point is that if the BG even lives after being shot by either of these handguns 8, or 14 times I would think the 14 bullets holes would cause him to bleed out faster. than the 8 rounds. However, in both cases the chances of anyone surviving X, or Y are slim and none.

:rolleyes:

[MCgunner]

In the US violent crime has been declining, kidnapping like you describe is rare.

Not in Houston since Katrina and the Katrician migration. Seems New Orleans sent all their crack heads over here. There was a Katrician who claimed on the radio that if they didn't get extensions to their FEMA money, crime would dramatically increase. Handguns and handgun classes have been selling like hot cakes at IHOP.

[Plastic Cowboy]

How does recoil compare between these two calibers with respect to getting off a second shot?? I have a .45ACP XD Springfield that is relatively easy to shoot fast should the need arise. Less experience with a .357 but I suspect it is more difficult to fire off a multi-round burst from any revolver, much less one that is kicking like a mule in your hand.

How easy is it to dump all 6 chambers in a DA .357 rapidly and accurately??

[makarovnik]

Either one. They're both excellent choices.

[Moonclips]

I suspect it is more difficult to fire off a multi-round burst from any revolver, much less one that is kicking like a mule in your hand.

How easy is it to dump all 6 chambers in a DA .357 rapidly and accurately??
I've seen a video clip of a guy (was it Jerry Miculek?) firing off 12 rounds in under 3 seconds (or was it 2 seconds). Of course, he used a moonclip for the reload. That's too fast for mere mortals like us.

Don't worry about the next shot. Just concentrate on each shot and go as fast as you can control. It's gonna take some practice, too. But if you're more confident with an autoloader, that's fine. I can shoot my autoloaders faster and more accurately compared to a DA revolver also, but I just like revolvers, too, that's all. They can be effective tools, if employed properly.

[MCgunner]

Yep, autos, especially high cap autos, invite the spray and pray mentality. Spray and pray can cause collateral damage, too, not desirable if you wanna stay out of prison. Make your shots count, practice at it. Don't shoot anymore than is necessary to stop the attack.

[Oregongundude]

I have been reading several articles in the papers about how the police involved shootings have increased since they switched over to the Glock 9 mm especially in Washington DC the nation's capital. Because the Police are using the spray and pray method now that they have so many rounds available to them with there automatic 9 mm Glocks. Police killings have increased two fold since they switched over to the 9 mm from the 38 special. Interesting, the police are killing more people in shootouts with a 9 mm then a .38 special. That's some food for thought. Of course there averaging 3 to 4 more rounds now in each shoot out. I guess the 9 mm can kill after all. I guess my point is that the .45 automatic with 14 rounds and a couple extra magazines would be better in a multiple BG stand off. I think the .357 is very effective up to 6-8 rounds and then your using the old speed loader. I don't see a big difference if your an expert with the speed loader.

[AJD]

Most self defense encounters are within 7 yards. If you practice, you shouldn't have much trouble putting 6 rounds of .357 magnum ammunition into 6 different man sized targets in a reasonable amount of time. Or all six into one target, or three shots into two different targets, etc. etc.

And companies like S&W offer 7 and even 8 shot .357 magnum revolvers.

And if you shooting something like this...

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_27&products_id=48

Then one shot will probably be enough.

EDIT:

Also, I think way to many people are driven by the fear that they will need a 15+ rounds in case of the event that are attacked by some huge gang of thugs or something. So they settle for a something less powerful because it holds alot more rounds. They should be more afraid of shooting someone who is armed and having that shot not be enough to end the conflict because if he is still capable of shooting back then you might not have another shot.

[MCgunner]

I still don't know how I'll react if that time ever comes that I need to shoot. Will I keep my cool and place my shots? Will I be able to work through the adenalin dump? I don't know, that's why I like to carry a relatively high cap auto. .45 is no more effective, practically speaking, than a 9, so I don't worry about the "what if he don't go down" senario. He might not go down with 5 .45s in him, either. Chances are, though, center mass with the 9, or one center mass and one to the head, will do the trick. You simply cannot count on a "one shot stop" with any handgun caliber. It can happen, great if it does, just be prepared to shoot until the threat stops.

An 8 shot .357 is awfully bulky to carry all day concealed. I carry a 5 shot .38 now and then, but if I had an 8 shot .357, I'd never carry it. My .45 is flatter and lighter and reloads are flatter if I'm going IWB.

[Oregongundude]

I wouldn't be sure of myself in a fire fight that I would be able to drop the BG in one shot. I practice all the time with targets, but people move fast and if they are firing at you and there are more than one of them. You might have to fire several rounds before the shooting finally stops. Hopefully, I will still be standing after it's over, if I'm good enough to win the gun battle. Myself, and others may agree or disagree with me. I believe the automatics will provide me the best chance to win a multiple bad guy shoot outs. In the middle of action with all the excitement you may hit one in the arm, or leg, shoulder, or miss several times. The worse thing would be to run out of rounds in the middle of the encounter. Now you may think this is far fetched, but drugs, gang members packing automatics with large rounds capacity may be firing at you with 9 mm's and you dont' want to be caught short of rounds when your life is on the line. I would choice a 9mm Glock with 17+1, XD .45 acp 13+1, and a 40 S&W with 13 round with three additional magazines anyday, over a 6-8 round .357 magnum in this type of encounter.

Why do you think most major Police forces swtiched to automatics, because they were getting there butt's handed to them on the streets in guns fights with thugs packing automatics, and they were getting rushed by the BG's packings automatics why they were trying to reload there revolvers with the old speed loaders. It makes sense doesn't it :what:

I like to be prepared for any possibility, and the automatics provide the capacity and firepower needed under extreme stress when your aim my be a little questionable at times.

:D

[jlh26oo]

Not in Houston since Katrina and the Katrician migration. Seems New Orleans sent all their crack heads over here. There was a Katrician who claimed on the radio that if they didn't get extensions to their FEMA money, crime would dramatically increase. Handguns and handgun classes have been selling like hot cakes at IHOP.

+1

[defiant73a]

Why do you think most major Police forces swtiched to automatics, because they were getting there butt's handed to them on the streets in guns fights with thugs packing automatics, and they were getting rushed by the BG's packings automatics why they were trying to reload there revolvers with the old speed loaders.
:rolleyes: Somebody needs a history lesson.

[sicario103]

Originally Posted by Moonclips

I've seen a video clip of a guy (was it Jerry Miculek?) firing off 12 rounds in under 3 seconds (or was it 2 seconds). Of course, he used a moonclip for the reload.

12 shots with a revolver under 3 seconds is unrealistic. Even if it was possible, not too many people would be able accurately or even do it at all. Place that Jerry Miculek guy under a stressful situation where his life is in actual danger and you'll see a realistic shoot/reload times. Anyways, what happens when one of the spent rounds is stuck or the moonclip is abit bent.... well there goes your quick reload...Can't get it out? well you'll have to reload it one at a time. A jam on a auto can be dealt with a bit quicker than a wheel gun.

Originallt Posted by AJD

Most self defense encounters are within 7 yards. If you practice, you shouldn't have much trouble putting 6 rounds of .357 magnum ammunition into 6 different man sized targets in a reasonable amount of time. Or all six into one target, or three shots into two different targets, etc. etc.

And companies like S&W offer 7 and even 8 shot .357 magnum revolvers.

Yes, most shootouts are within 10 meters or less. Yes, if you practice, you shouldn't have much trouble putting 6 rounds of .357 in to six different targets... Key word here: PRACTICE. Try doing it when those man sized targets are shooting back. High capacity revolver are way to big.... lot of people complain about having to carry spare clips so you can imagine that big wheel gun.

Then one shot will probably be enough.

"Probably" is not insurance enough. Is BG's continue assault after multiple shots unheard of? No, it does happen. Never assume 1 shot is enough. Even if it true, add stress, nerves, adrenaline or whatever into the equation and it will dictate a completely different story on you shot placements

Originally posted by MCgunner

Yep, autos, especially high cap autos, invite the spray and pray mentality. Spray and pray can cause collateral damage, too, not desirable if you wanna stay out of prison. Make your shots count, practice at it. Don't shoot anymore than is necessary to stop the attack.

That's dead wrong. Spray and pray is not solely restricted to autos. You can still spray and pray be it an auto, a revolver, a pump, a lever action etc. Just because someone carries a high capacity auto does not mean he will be doing it or be tempted to spray and pray. And there's a difference between controlled multiple consecutive shots and just spray and pray. Plus just because you got double the capacity does not mean you have to shoot it all.

Originally POsted by Inline_6

That said, I'd rather carry my 45ACP revolver than the 15+1 .40 Glock I am forced to carry.

Moonclips increase chance of malfunction.


Originally Posted by Strambo

In the US violent crime has been declining, kidnapping like you describe is rare. If your threat assessment for Venezuela is correct, then your choice of high capacity auto is sound for while you are there. I'm assuming your round count in Canada is...zero correct? Do you have a Canadian CCW, is there such a thing?

My CCW is only in Venezuela. In Canada, I have a number of rifles and shotguns FOR hunting and ranges purposes only. Even though crime rate in Canada has been on the increase both in numbers and types, I still don't think I'll be in any danger at least not in the imminent future. Now if you believe my assessment for my country is sound, then would it not also be a good choice for any other country regardless of crime rate? Why just carry something when you can carry alittle extra? And just because there's a decline in violent crimes in the US does not mean it will less likely happen to you or that you are any safer.