Anyone seen new Mexican Army issue rifle?


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Min
September 28, 2006, 12:03 AM
:)

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Min
September 28, 2006, 12:50 AM
Actually, no.


http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/83/desfile12gm7si7.jpg

FTF
September 28, 2006, 12:59 AM
Fx05. Copy of an H&K. A seriously cool rifle.

MatthewVanitas
September 28, 2006, 01:03 AM
Just a note: this same subject was covered last week, but was locked down because 90% of members just wanted to make stupid jokes about illegal immigration, tacos, and all kinds of pointless things.

Please help keep this on topic so that I (and everyone else) can actually learn something about an interesting development in military arms.

Can the Mods just delete all the dumb posts and leave up the ones with something to contribute?

-MV

.45Guy
September 28, 2006, 01:05 AM
All joking aside, remember that Mexico was the first nation to adopt a semi-auto service rifle, although only 400 were delivered before the onset of WWI. It was a Mexican design to boot.

swingset
September 28, 2006, 02:34 AM
That 10" barrel isn't going to produce a very lethal bullet. :)

BrainOnSigs
September 28, 2006, 07:37 AM
That 10" barrel isn't going to produce a very lethal bullet.

A full auto burst of 30 rounds might ruin your day though.......

HorseSoldier
September 28, 2006, 08:50 AM
That 10" barrel isn't going to produce a very lethal bullet.

A full auto burst of 30 rounds might ruin your day though.......

The guys in the picture are their special operations types (they got the rifle before everyone else, in their specific commando configuration, as such things usually happen the world over). A round from the short barrel on their rifle won't be any more or any less lethal than a round from the extra-short barreled AR uppers our special operations types use.

Bartholomew Roberts
September 28, 2006, 09:05 AM
All off-topic comments regarding immigration have been deleted. If you find your post missing, then consider yourself warned. Further comments along the lines of what got the previous thread closed will result in both deletion and a permanent ban of the member making the comment. Clear enough for everyone?

slugcatcher
September 28, 2006, 09:23 AM
Does the bayonet he's carrying acutally fit that rifle or is carried in place of a knife?

P99guy
September 28, 2006, 09:47 AM
Thats simply a version of the HK G36K. that knife looks like a G3 bayonet ..that carbine dont take a bayonet, so I guess you would call it a combat knife in their use.

Thin Black Line
September 28, 2006, 09:54 AM
Would've loved to have one of these for pointing out the window of my
up-armored humvee in the sandbox.....a little difficult with the M16A2.

Manedwolf
September 28, 2006, 09:59 AM
Would've loved to have one of these for pointing out the window of my
up-armored humvee in the sandbox.....a little difficult with the M16A2.

So is there a rationale for them NOT issuing a short barrel or bullpup to troops stuck in close-quarters armor, something like the FN P90, at least, if not an H&K like these? Or even a new folder .223 like the SU-16C that can be fired while folded AND uses the same mags?

Seems like it'd be logical, to me. Keep a few secured in the vehicle at all times, get in, the people not driving stow their M16s and pick up the shortbarrel/bullpups/folders instead?

As for Mexico, based on what I've seen of it, this seems like it makes sense. Given the environment, I think it'd be either the extremes of loooooong shots over terrain for someone with a sniper rifle, or very close-quarters scuffling in close urban alleys or hovels...Mexico City and other places do have a lot of those. Looks like a good choice, to me.

CornCod
September 28, 2006, 10:05 AM
My guess is that the new rifle will go to elite units/Commando outfits only. The cash-poor Mexican government will probably stick with the G-3. We are talking about an Army (its not their fault, I guess) that is still tooling around in WW2 Sherman tanks, last I heard.

BIGDADDYLONGSTROKE
September 28, 2006, 10:08 AM
Dumb question here but can the rifle the Mexican army is carrying, chamber the larger .223 rounds such as the 68 grain and up or is it limited like the AR-15, or atleast it was my understanding not to use more than a 68 grain in my AR.

And is the Mexican army subject to the Geneva Convintion or are they using hollow points and expandable ammo in there rifles?

Thin Black Line
September 28, 2006, 10:10 AM
So is there a rationale for them NOT issuing a short barrel or bullpup to troops stuck in close-quarters armor,

Yeah, it's $$$ and there are vehicles that need to be replaced first!

Prince Yamato
September 28, 2006, 10:12 AM
Is it me or is a bayonet on a rifle that short rather pointless? "Ooh, I'm going to stick you...ugh... can't reach..." At that point, I think I'd just start chucking empty magazines at people.

Also, question about the Mexican Army:

What are the most recent wars they were involved in?

HorseSoldier
September 28, 2006, 10:23 AM
So is there a rationale for them NOT issuing a short barrel or bullpup to troops stuck in close-quarters armor, something like the FN P90, at least, if not an H&K like these? Or even a new folder .223 like the SU-16C that can be fired while folded AND uses the same mags?


Does an M4 with the stock collapsed all the way down count? Not as compact as a side folding stock deal like the G-36, but you can aim with the stock collapsed, whereas it's all pretty much sprayed suppressive fire with folders.

Thin Black Line
September 28, 2006, 10:45 AM
You'd be surprised that with some training, it's possible to make hits from
moving vehicles even on SEMI-auto. However, while riding shotgun, I
typically carried a....shotgun with 00. One of these little Mex guns would
have been great, too, if I had to leave the vehicle while outside the wire.

MatthewVanitas
September 28, 2006, 10:52 AM
What are the most recent wars they were involved in?

Fighting internal rebellion down in Chiapas state, IIRC.

-MV

Manedwolf
September 28, 2006, 10:58 AM
I believe they also occasionally have to deal with druglords who might put up a bit of resistance.

cane
September 28, 2006, 12:02 PM
The last 3 times I was in Mexico, the military (Army & Navy) were carrying M-16s.

Bwana John
September 28, 2006, 12:37 PM
I have seen M-16's for the Mexican Navy, and G-3's for the Army.

As much as many folks want to think that it is not so, the Mexican Military IS activly involved in the supression of drugs intended for the US.

I spend ~ 75 days a year in Baja California, and I have found the average Mexican soldier to be professional, curtious, and not corrupt.

slzy
September 28, 2006, 12:41 PM
bayonets are useful for crowd control

American By Blood
September 28, 2006, 01:19 PM
That 10" barrel isn't going to produce a very lethal bullet.

My XD45 has a 4" barrel but you're not going to catch me standing downrange any time soon.

Is it me or is a bayonet on a rifle that short rather pointless? "Ooh, I'm going to stick you...ugh... can't reach..." At that point, I think I'd just start chucking empty magazines at people.

Ever seen a pictures of a Legionairre with a bayo mounted on his FAMAS? Similarly lame.

EDIT: http://i10.tinypic.com/40cqeq8.jpglulz

Jorg Nysgerrig
September 28, 2006, 02:03 PM
And is the Mexican army subject to the Geneva Convintion or are they using hollow points and expandable ammo in there rifles?

For the zillionth time, the Geneva Convention(s) doesn't say a thing about expanding ammo. That's the Hague Declaration of 1899. And yes, Mexico did sign that.

Thin Black Line
September 28, 2006, 02:26 PM
And, technically, isn't that restriction just against other uniformed soldiers?

ArmedBear
September 28, 2006, 02:28 PM
What are they going to do with their current-issue muskets?

http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/antiques/thumb_1842.JPG

MechAg94
September 28, 2006, 02:28 PM
If you can't reach with the bayonet, you take a couple steps further. However, I was under the impression that the danger of a bayonet charge was not just getting stuck, but getting you head bashed in by the follow up hit with the rifle butt. Hard to say whether modern plastic rifles would have the same effect though.

BIGDADDYLONGSTROKE
September 28, 2006, 02:29 PM
Sorry wasnt trying to get any feathers ruffled, just didnt know. I wasnt around in 1899, heck I wasnt even around in 1979. I was wondering if there restricted to the same things we are here in USA.:)

Evil Monkey
September 28, 2006, 02:41 PM
I like the Norweigan G36KV better. It has the bolt release in the trigger guard, man. Come on you can't beat that.:)

http://www.hkpro.com/g36kvtrig2.jpg

this image is too big so click the link.
http://folk.ntnu.no/tomaslh/g36kv/overview.jpg

Carl N. Brown
September 28, 2006, 03:07 PM
In 1970 the Mexican govt passed gun laws so restrictive
they closed most of the 500 or so gun shops in Mexico
at the time.

Rafael Mendoza was a brilliant gun designer who produced
some interesting designs for the military. His company also
produced some .22 sporter designs, but the Mexican
government's paranoia about revolutions pretty much
stifles legal private gun ownership and domestic
manufacture. That makes Mexico dependent too much on
foriegn arms makers for its military.

Eightball
September 28, 2006, 05:03 PM
Correct me if i'm wrong, but it seems as though that rifle is a mix between the G36C and the (no-defunct) XM8. Is it possible that they picked up the XM8 idea (plastic rifle), maybe cashed in on the US's pouring money into the R&D on the program? If that is their "new" rifle, and the "shorty" version is going to their commandoes/specops, should we expect a longer, "rifle" version for the "masses" in the army soon enough?

Just a question/guess.

SnakeEater
September 28, 2006, 06:32 PM
The cash-poor Mexican government will probably stick with the G-3.
And continue to be better armed than the average American soldier. Seriously though, how cool would one of those HK's be as a war trophy bring back?

orangelo
September 28, 2006, 07:14 PM
I thought the optics/carry handle of the G36 was supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread? How come they stripped those off and went to irons?

HorseSoldier
September 28, 2006, 07:25 PM
I thought the optics/carry handle of the G36 was supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread? How come they stripped those off and went to irons?

My guess would be that iron sights plus a picatinny rail is both a cheaper arrangement and a more versatile, flexible, and adaptable one. I doubt they have the money to give every joe (jose?) in the army optics more advanced than irons, and the rail means their guys who do warrant optics can tailor them to mission, etc. (And since their top end guys get a lot of training from our top end guys, I suspect they tend to emulate our developments in kit in some key ways, like modular versus fixed optics.)

Min
September 28, 2006, 09:49 PM
I thought the optics/carry handle of the G36 was supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread? How come they stripped those off and went to irons?

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/1797/img0194kr9xm3.jpg

modifiedbrowning
September 28, 2006, 10:05 PM
This is the second pic I have seen of these rifles and I am still wondering about the placement of the iron sights. Wouldn't you want to place them at the extreme ends of the rail to increase your sight radius and also allow clearance for an optic if used?

Bigfoot
September 28, 2006, 11:54 PM
.45Guy thanks for the tip. I'd never heard of the Mondragon rifle. Designed in the 1890s no less.

http://www.cruffler.com/historic-february01.html

http://www.texastradingpost.com/militaria/mondragon.html

Eightball
September 28, 2006, 11:58 PM
Why is that skeletonized plastic stock so darn thick??? I thought plastic would allow you to make things smaller/lighter......?

I've seen plenty of skeletonized AR stocks smaller than that.

trbon8r
September 29, 2006, 12:11 AM
[/QUOTE]And continue to be better armed than the average American soldier. Seriously though, how cool would one of those HK's be as a war trophy bring back?[QUOTE/]

You may not like the M16, but facts are facts. The G3 is an antique. While the M16 is currently being used by a wide array of special forces troops that can carry anything they want, the G3 is collecting dust in the armories of various assorted 3rd world craphole countries.

I don't have anything against the G3. In fact I'd like to own one to help round out my collection. However, to say that it is front line kit in the year 2006 requires one to completely ignore reality.

trbon8r
September 29, 2006, 12:12 AM
delete

roscoe
September 29, 2006, 12:58 AM
We are talking about an Army (its not their fault, I guess) that is still tooling around in WW2 Sherman tanks, last I heard.
Shermans? Is that really true? I wonder if I could buy one.

.45Guy
September 29, 2006, 01:07 AM
.45Guy thanks for the tip. I'd never heard of the Mondragon rifle. Designed in the 1890s no less.

No prob, It's a shame they've been so screwed by corrupt governments.

Raygun
September 29, 2006, 01:28 AM
Thats simply a version of the HK G36K.
It may not be quite that simple. What I've read on other forums (I believe this was from a Mexican poster on militaryphotos.net: here's the link (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82106)) was that the Mexican government was planning on contracting HK for the design and tool manufacture for a rifle based on the G36 and Mexican specs. The price HK quoted for the whole shebang was apparently considered a bit much, so the Mexican government decided to handle the design work in-house (to avoid the costs of German engineering and the production license) and buy just the tooling from HK to save a chunk of change (about $47 million Euros, according to this (http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/grafico/57023.html)).

So the FX-05 isn't "simply a version of the G36K". Patented features of the G36 were apparently replaced with non-infringing designs (trigger mechanism, charging handle, gas piston, etc...) and other things were added. Like the stock, for example, and the top rail being part of the receiver mold.

This is the second pic I have seen of these rifles and I am still wondering about the placement of the iron sights. Wouldn't you want to place them at the extreme ends of the rail to increase your sight radius and also allow clearance for an optic if used?
I would think so. I have no idea why the front sight was attached so far back on the rail at the parade (all of them with irons appear to be that way: on the seventh rail from the front). Could be they just popped 'em out of their shipping crates and handed 'em out right at the beginning of the parade. Who knows?

Why is that skeletonized plastic stock so darn thick??? I thought plastic would allow you to make things smaller/lighter......?
Probably for stability. It retracts and folds, kind of like the stock on the FN SCAR.

Min
September 29, 2006, 02:43 AM
Okay now the real question: Would you buy one for $999.00?

Evil Monkey
September 29, 2006, 02:51 AM
Okay now the real question: Would you buy one for $999.00?

Dude, that's a STEAL at that price. Seeing the prices for the XCR, SIG556, gas piston AR's, a $1,000 for a FX05 is a steal.

EOTechRulesAll
September 29, 2006, 05:03 AM
What's the price-tag on that rifle though? I would imagine Mexico was concerned about the price and that is why they made a knock-off of the HK weapon rather than buying their own? Although it might just be they don't want to be dependent on a foreign nation for a steady flow of new rifles?

Coronach
September 29, 2006, 05:13 AM
You may not like the M16, but facts are facts. The G3 is an antique. While the M16 is currently being used by a wide array of special forces troops that can carry anything they want, the G3 is collecting dust in the armories of various assorted 3rd world craphole countries.Yes, but I'm willing to bet money that if the 7.62 NATO rifle that we had collecting dust in our armouries was stamped "G3" instead of "M-14", they would be out getting dusty in the sandbox- from hard use.

The point is that the full-power rifle has different capabilities and limitations than the intermediate-power assault rifle, and both are proving to be pretty useful out on the pointy end of the spear.

Mike

EOTechRulesAll
September 29, 2006, 05:24 AM
What I want is a 7.62mm NATO caseless rifle with a magazine of at least 30-50 rounds. I want it to be less than 8 pounds total in weight, and I want it fully-customizable with an effective range of at least 900 meters.

Yah, I want it all, don't I?

Somebody really should make the 7.62mm round in a caseless form...

Thin Black Line
September 29, 2006, 09:03 AM
Okay now the real question: Would you buy one for $999.00?

LOL, the machines are in Mexico and there's that '89 import ban. But, hey,
why not a semi-auto version made here on HK machines? Too expensive
for someone to invest the $'s and have a future ban, that's why.....

Manedwolf
September 29, 2006, 11:25 AM
I would imagine Mexico was concerned about the price and that is why they made a knock-off of the HK weapon rather than buying their own? Although it might just be they don't want to be dependent on a foreign nation for a steady flow of new rifles?

The latter is common sense, to me. Why depend on a manufacturer halfway around the globe for manufacture of and parts for your nation's armament?

Plus their manufacturers can make changes in the design to suit the environment or problems reported by troops as-needed. Think early M-16 to current M-16. Imagine what a hassle that would have been if they were all made in Europe and all that could be done was either make suggestions to the manufacturer and hope they follow them, or take apart the entire infrastructure and change rifles.

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