under-barrel mounted shotgun for AR15...


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Shweboner
September 28, 2006, 02:22 AM
I remember a few years ago seeing a shotgun that mounted to an AR15 under the handguard like an M203.

I dont remember if was a SBS or not, I think it would have to be.


Anybody else see them before? Still around?



thanks

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rockstar.esq
September 28, 2006, 02:32 AM
Remington still makes it in their military line. It's a modified 870.

Don't Tread On Me
September 28, 2006, 02:32 AM
Yes, some people call them a "masterkey" as they can be used to blast out hinges and locks.

If they weren't a registered item, thousands of people would be mounting them for the ultimate tacti-cool AR. :rolleyes:


Yeah, it's a SBS.

Still 2 Many Choices!?
September 28, 2006, 12:24 PM
I know it sounds crazy, but by adding the 870 to the AR's receiver(with a stock) you have created a SBS and would require the tax stamp. I want one for my AR pistol, no stamp required :evil:!

ny32182
September 28, 2006, 12:27 PM
Are you sure that is correct? The 870 receiver is intact, and I would think it would have its own serial number/be an entirely separate firearm from the host AR?

selector67
September 28, 2006, 01:55 PM
Yeah, I remember they were selling those things in the guns and ammo magazine back in the early and mid eighties, you could mount a mossberg or remington under the barrel. I regret not getting one:banghead:

Still 2 Many Choices!?
September 28, 2006, 02:41 PM
The shotgun IS a totally seperate firearm since it does have it's own serial number... The thing is that once you add it to the AR, it now has the ability to be fired from the shoulder using the AR's stock. Thus it is a SBS now:( . The under barrle 870 by itself looks like it would have to be classified as an AOW if it is not mounted to the host AR, but how the hell would you fire it then :confused: scrutiny: :uhoh: ?! So if you register your AR receiver as an SBR, then add the under barrel shotgun, I don't know if you would need a second stamp for having now created a second SBS or not? The confusing NFA makes me want to :banghead: !

OEF_VET
September 28, 2006, 03:43 PM
So if you register your AR receiver as an SBR, then add the under barrel shotgun, I don't know if you would need a second stamp for having now created a second SBS or not?

If you mount an 870 with a barrel length less than 18", and an OAL of less than 26" to an AR, the 870 needs to be registered as a SBS.

The only time you'd have to register the AR as a SBR is if the AR itself has a bbl less than 16", or an OAL of less than 26".

If your rifle had a 16" bbl, and the attached shotgun were 12.5" (the shortest you can make an 870 without requiring MAJOR gunsmithing), you would only have to pay one $200 tax stamp, for the short-barreled shotgun.

If your rifle had an 11.5" bbl, and the 870 had a 12.5" bbl, you'd have to pay two $200 taxes ($400 total). One for the SBR, and one for the SBS.

Of course, you could throw another $200 stamp into your collection, and toss a suppressor onto the end of your AR. If you were going to do that, you'd want to make sure you had a top-of-the-line suppressor, one that would function properly with a bbl as short as 11.5". You'd really have to run that short of a rifle bbl, because if it were any longer, the suppressor would be susceptible to being struck as the shotgun started patterning.

Now, that would be the ULTIMATE tacticool AR. An 11.5" bbl, suppressor, rail-mounted Rem 870 SBS @ 6 o'clock, some form of optics @12 o'clock, a Surefire light @ 3, and a IR pointer @ 9. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm........:evil: :D

tenbase
September 28, 2006, 04:06 PM
oooh oooh oooh, don't forget the picatinny rail mount for a Glock

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/9104/utaup1.jpg

move the surefire to 9 o'clock and mount the pistol at 3, with a laser of course

Still 2 Many Choices!?
September 28, 2006, 04:44 PM
Thanx for the clarrification. My example was for a person that had already registered the AR as an sbr and had 1 stamp. So like I thought, you would have created another NFA weapon by adding the 870, and require another stamp. But what if you added another pistol(like the above Glock)? As I know it(NFA), an SBR can have multiple barrels as long as they are all rifled. So adding the Glock should not require another stamp?

Just for $hi*$ and giggles, I'll do you one better tenbase...
Add a picatinny rail section to the 870's pump, and add the Glock there with laser of course:evil: :neener: ... Home defense with flair:D !!!

Still 2 Many Choices!?

P99guy
September 28, 2006, 06:08 PM
There is a downside to the Rem870/Moss500 mounted under the AR15, the rear mount uses an overlenth front takedown pin on the AR...it transfers 12 recoil to the aluminum receiver....it quickly makes the front take down hole eliptical...makes the upper and lower loose as a goose. I had one of the mounts you are talking about back in the 1980's and the concept is best left alone if you are paying for your own firearms.

wdlsguy
September 28, 2006, 06:39 PM
Only $1,899 plus the $200 transfer tax and it's yours. :evil:

http://www.impactguns.com/store/knights_masterkey.html

OEF_VET
September 28, 2006, 09:23 PM
Adding a stock to a pistol makes it an SBR, which means an additional $200 stamp.

So, I guess the ULTIMATE TACTICOOL AR set-up would be:
AR-15 SBR
rail-mounted 870 SBS @ 6 o'clock
- Surefire rail foreend on 870 with Glock 17 attached
- - Surefire X200b attached to the Glock
Surefire light @ 3 o'clock
Optics @ 12 o'clock
IR laser @ 9 o'clock
100 round BETA mag
LMT SOPMOD Stock
1-point sling attached to rear of lower reciever
3-point sling attached as a secondary means of carrying, in case 1-point breaks
.223 suppressor attached to the AR
9mm suppressor attached to the Glock

Of course, you'll definitely need your Tactical Wheelbarrow, in order to haul it around. But, that's another thread altogether.

johnsonrlp
September 28, 2006, 09:45 PM
SSSHHHHH! Don't use the "W" word:)

Prince Yamato
September 28, 2006, 11:06 PM
Didn't one of the characters in the movie Predator have an M16A2 with a full-sized shotgun underneath the rifle barrel?

Still 2 Many Choices!?
September 28, 2006, 11:09 PM
Don't forget you'll need your significant other, or to grow a third arm to make the best use of all the triggers and preassure swithces attatched to that bad boy:what: !

PS- That was the most fun game of,"How many tax stamps can I get on a rifle at once", ever:) . I keep thinking we left something out though(can you say 40mm? I knew you could:evil: )

Still 2 Many Choices!?

Hkmp5sd
September 29, 2006, 12:45 AM
Jonathan Arthur Ciener used to make a version of the 870 that snapped on the bayonet lug of the AR. He made both NFA and non-NFA versions.

Eightball
September 29, 2006, 12:52 AM
So, if you had a 20" bbl AR, and could in theory mount an 18" shotgun under bbl (are those made? 18 inchers?), would you need a stamp at all?

Fun gun, no registration.......I'm seeing some fun forming right there....

rockstar.esq
September 29, 2006, 02:32 AM
What's an NFA?

OEF_VET
September 29, 2006, 02:50 AM
rockstar,

NFA is short for The National Firearms Act of 1934.

NFA34 is the piece of legislation that, amongst other things, regulated machineguns, short-barreled rifles, short-barreled shotguns, destructive devices, suppressors, and a catch-all class of weapons known as AOW's, or Any-Other-Weapons.

For more info, check out www.atf.gov, or www.titleii.com. I'd post more, but I'm slightly drunk, and typing isn't the easiest task right now.

smince
September 29, 2006, 08:52 AM
Jonathan Arthur Ciener used to make a version of the 870 that snapped on the bayonet lug of the AR. He made both NFA and non-NFA versions.
I was going to say that in the 80's I remembered a full-length 870/Mossberg 500 mounted under a 20" AR. I don't believe these were NFA.

tenbase
September 29, 2006, 10:25 AM
PS- That was the most fun game of,"How many tax stamps can I get on a rifle at once", ever . I keep thinking we left something out though

always nice to have a less-lethal option for the riff raff:

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/5440/taserrailqc9.jpg

don't think it needs a tax stamp though.

Thin Black Line
September 29, 2006, 10:56 AM
I carried around an M16, an M500 and an M9 one day in Iraq and decided
it was a bit much......I doubt dropping the stock to add it under the M16
would have made much difference. Maybe if I ditched my IBA, water, or...

Henry Bowman
September 29, 2006, 11:42 AM
Of course, you'll definitely need your Tactical Wheelbarrow, in order to haul it around. But, that's another thread altogether.Just don't get caught with a coffee can!

Maybe if I ditched my IBA, water, or...Maybe if I sold a kidney I could afford all the tax stamps.

Still 2 Many Choices!?
September 29, 2006, 12:34 PM
If the NFA is legal only as a tax/revenue generating law why were these items selected as somehow ,"special", and in need of another tax? We already pay a tax on title I firearms, correct? What stops Congress from deciding that the NFA is to be expanded to ALL FIREARMS, and the tax stays the same:barf: :uhoh: ? Then they cut off the registry like with MG :eek: !! I truly believe that is the end goal, or the MG registry would not be closed. Next is the SBR and SBS registry. With the MG model already in place, and being allowed by the American people, confiscation isn't need, just their patience:uhoh: :scrutiny: !

Deathrider1579
September 29, 2006, 01:18 PM
Whoa whoa whoa!

So if I bolt my mossy 18.5" Shotgun to my 20" AR-15 I have a new and illegal weapon... Um ... yeah words fail me.

or am i cornfused

-DR

OEF_VET
September 29, 2006, 01:57 PM
DR1579,

If the bbl of the shotgun is greater than 18" and the rifle bbl is greater than 16", you can bolt, glue, staple, nail, solder, weld, or tape them together until your heart is content, and it'd all be legal.

It's when you start shortening the barrels that it gets illegal in some states, and HIGHLY regulated in the others.

The Federal law states that if a shotgun has a stock, even if it's the stock of your M4, and a bbl shorter than 18", it is a short-bbl shotgun, and you must pay a $200 tax to manufacture it or to transfer ownership of it.

If you attach a stock to a pistol, it would become a short-barreled rifle, subject to the same taxation standards.

The same law states that if the shotgun has NEVER had a stock attached to it, you may register it as an AOW, or Any Other Weapon, by paying a $200 manufacturing tax. Any subsequent transfers of ownership would require a $5 transfer tax.

If you were to attach a vertical forward grip to a pistol, it would become an AOW, subject to the same taxation standards as an AOW shotgun.

In order to manufacture either of those types of weapons, you have to file the appropriate tax paperwork, namely an ATF Form 1, which is in effect, a tax return. In order to transfer either type, you have to file an ATF Form 4, which is, again, a type of tax return.

wdlsguy
September 29, 2006, 03:43 PM
What stops Congress from deciding that the NFA is to be expanded to ALL FIREARMS, and the tax stays the same?
Nothing, really. The original plan was for handguns to be NFA weapons by the way.

Then they cut off the registry like with MG!!
Entirely possible. The 1968 foreign machinegun ban, the 1986 domestic machinegun ban, and the 1992 foreign "assault weapon" bans all set the precedent for the next ban.

usmccpl
September 29, 2006, 09:35 PM
I have wanted to do this since the first time I saw the Perdator. I thought Billys weapon was about the best you could get for MOUT combat shotty to open doors and rifle to open heads and chests.





one shot one kill

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