What if you found a class III firearm?


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Whirlwind06
September 28, 2006, 09:51 AM
What if you were cleaning out the attic of a recently passed away uncle or grandfather. And you found a war trophy say a German MP-40 or a Thomson 45.
Or an full auto AK-47 for that matter.

Would there be anyway legally own it? Could you register it with the BATF? Or would they take it and destroy it?

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Manedwolf
September 28, 2006, 09:53 AM
If they have a war record, from what I've heard, the best way to keep it from being destroyed would be to contact the forces they'd served with, their museum, and see about getting it donated as an exhibit.

If they took it, you'd get it in a case with their name below it, usually, and it's better than BATFE torching it or using it as a demo toy for 'evil guns'.

Keith Wheeler
September 28, 2006, 09:57 AM
If there's no paper trail, it's a no go sort of item. No way to register, almost no way to safely get rid of it....yes, people have gone to jail for "finding" an unregistered full auto.

But sometimes there is a paper trail. A fellow on another board was contacted by the family of a WWII vet who had passed on and had a papered type 99 Japanese LMG in the attic. It was a papered DEWAT (DEactivated WAr Trophy), which means it could be transferred and even reactivated.

If it has no papers, it has no papers. It's verboten, big time bad juju and neither the ATF nor the NRA give a flying handshake how many Nazis your grandpappy killed to recover it, it's just plain illegal.

Besides the well known "four rules", I follow a fifth when it comes to guns: "thou shalt not touch a non-papered NFA item".

wuchak
September 28, 2006, 10:12 AM
I like the museum idea. I think my first call would be an anonymous one to a museum curator at a museum with a firearm collection of this type. They would certainly know the procedure and what if anything you could do to be able to either outright donate it to them or put on a "long-term" loan if there is a way you can legally possess it and you intend to go through the process to do so.

Father Knows Best
September 28, 2006, 10:14 AM
All good advice here. I will note that my dad was a well-known expert on German WWII military weapons once, and was close with the curator of a university museum. The curator periodically called him to ask help identifying and valuing things that had been donated. The museum did indeed get unpapered machine guns from time to time, including once when my dad showed up and saw an MG42 in excellent condition sitting on the table, complete with tripod and accessories. As was often the case, it was brought in by a family member of a deceased gentleman.

The museums do sometimes have a way to keep them, but I don't know the specifics.

Manedwolf
September 28, 2006, 10:14 AM
Besides the well known "four rules", I follow a fifth when it comes to guns: "thou shalt not touch a non-papered NFA item".

And when you think about it, it really is depressing that they've managed to make gun owners so fearful and cowed about that. That it's accepted.

That finding an inanimate object automatically makes you a criminal.

Sad.

I like the museum idea. I think my first call would be an anonymous one to a museum curator at a museum with a firearm collection of this type. They would certainly know the procedure and what if anything you could do to be able to either outright donate it to them or put on a "long-term" loan if there is a way you can legally possess it and you intend to go through the process to do so.

Or if it's a US military-issued weapon and it lacks papers, it could be said that the US military still owns it. And if you contact a museum operated and staffed by actual members of the military, they could well be willing to reclaim it as US property, if they're a decent sort. :)

Sindawe
September 28, 2006, 10:18 AM
Find such an item in an attic or the like? Why wall it up for the evil day when such historic artifacts have been banned from civilian ownership.

Oh, wait a minute...

The museum option is 'prolly the best best bet, unless one felt that its time to make a grand entrance into Valhalla.

Glockfan.45
September 28, 2006, 10:18 AM
Gun, what gun? Get yourself a shovel, and a good piece of PVC pipe, just kidding :neener: . No paper no play. I would get rid of that thing quicker than a case of the crabs. Once it enters your possesion as far as the ATF is concerned its your unregistered auto, and your jail time.

Bubbles
September 28, 2006, 10:25 AM
Have an attorney (NOT YOU) call the ATF NFA Branch with the appropriate information about the firearm (make, model, caliber, SN, etc.) to see if it is in the NFRTR. If yes, you can transfer it even if you can't find the paperwork. If no, strip and torch-cut the receiver, and sell the parts.

Unfortunately this situation is coming up more and more as WWII and Korean War vets die off.

dfaugh
September 28, 2006, 10:26 AM
Gun, what gun? Get yourself a shovel, and a good piece of PVC pipe, just kidding.

I'm just kidding, too:D Maybe:D Possibly:D

Keith Wheeler
September 28, 2006, 10:31 AM
And when you think about it, it really is depressing that they've managed to make gun owners so fearful and cowed about that. That it's accepted.

That finding an inanimate object automatically makes you a criminal.

Sad.

Dreadfully sad. For me it's not a question of fear, but of facing reality. I don't have 10 years and $250,000 to "donate" to Uncle Sam just because I'm in close proximity to something with a little bit of barrel cut off the end or with a couple of extra parts installed.

This isn't a conspiracy theory "they're comin' ta git us" fear, this is based on the fact the if you have in your hands or your immediate control an unpapered NFA item, you are in possession of an illegal firearm as far as the ATF is concerned. It has happened. Everything from broken guns to rusted relics found and turned in by good samaritan types have led to people being charged with an ugly federal felony.

The saddest part to me is how the bulk of the RKBA types look at this and shrug their shoulders, "yeah, but only weirdos want machine guns".

Thin Black Line
September 28, 2006, 10:39 AM
Everything from broken guns to rusted relics found and turned in by good samaritan types have led to people being charged with an ugly federal felony.

This was the heavy-handed use of the courts against reasonable citizens
that the Founding Fathers fought against.

And when you think about it, it really is depressing that they've managed to make gun owners so fearful and cowed about that. That it's accepted.

It's not just gun-owners and the 2A.

Phenom
September 28, 2006, 10:40 AM
If it was an AK-47 I would just keep my mouth shut about it. If it was anything else I would call the authorities and explain the situation to them and have them pick it up. I doubt you'll be arrested if you found a NFA item in an attic of a house you just moved into to.

Manedwolf
September 28, 2006, 10:42 AM
If it was anything else I would call the authorities and explain the situation to them and have them pick it up. I doubt you'll be arrested if you found a NFA item in an attic of a house you just moved into to.

Actually, yes, there's a good chance you will be arrested and charged with a felony, or at least have to endure some legal hell.

BAD idea to call the po-po's, unless you want to get a closeup of your kitchen floor with someone shouting at you after they charge in your door...and then get indicted on a felony charge. I can just about guarantee that they won't hear any word after "machine gun" or "full-auto". It's an evil unregistered machine gun, it's in your possession, end of story. You're a criminal.

Yes. It is that bad.

Glockfan.45
September 28, 2006, 10:44 AM
Not to hi-jack this thread but lets say I were shooting my semi-auto rifle and the sear broke making said rifle go full auto. I guess this would be viewed as a illegal conversion. Of course I would fix it quite promptly but if say a person were standing next to me at the range and heard it do I need to fear being reported.

Wow re-reading that really makes me think of fearing the S.S, KGB, or the Stasi :fire: .

Keith Wheeler
September 28, 2006, 10:50 AM
I doubt you'll be arrested if you found a NFA item in an attic of a house you just moved into to.

Guess again. I'm trying to find a good link...but there was a case of some people finding an old rusted subgun on a park, turning it in per good citizen concepts, and being arrested for "possesion" of an "illegal machinegun".

Not to hi-jack this thread but lets say I were shooting my semi-auto rifle and the sear broke making said rifle go full auto. I guess this would be viewed as a illegal conversion.

Yep, that has happened too. People have been arrested and charged with illegal possession for having a legal gun that broke.

Even if these folks aren't convicted, do you have any idea what being charged with having an illegal machine gun will do to your life? You don't have to be convicted of a crime like that to spend lots of money, lose your guns, your job...it's about like being charged with "child pornography" or perhaps being a congressman...


Edited to add:

Folks, this is why so many of us "stamp collectors" have a beef with the NRA. Since the phrase "machine gun" immediately turns off the thinking part of people's minds, be it cops, sheeple, congress critters, or duck hunters, the NRA doesn't want to get involved....but this stuff is going on. All of the fears that you "title I" ("regular" gun) types talk about happening "some day" are going on now. Go look at the issue of Len Savage's belt-fed upper for the M11 SMG. One day the ATF says it's an accessory, next it's a "machine gun"...after he's sold the bloody things! Then the ATF wants the names of all the folks that bought an accessory but now have an "illegal machine gun"...uh huh.

I'll have to say this -- I don't believe "they" are ready to come stomping down on us all, I'm not fear mongering, just trying to say that some very ugly stuff has happened because of the 1934 NFA, and it is indeed something that all gun owners need to be aware of and take seriously.

BobTheTomato
September 28, 2006, 10:51 AM
I think the lawyer is the best idea. There was a story not too long ago about a father who found a sawed off shot gun in his sons room and took it to the cops to be destroyed. Of course as things would go they thought about charging him. If you have any desire to keep it in you possesion having a lawyer trace the paperwork would insulate you and if they said it was unregistered it would give you a chance to destroy the reciever and any full auto parts.

El Tejon
September 28, 2006, 10:57 AM
No such thing as a Class III firearm so I don't have to worry.:D

Thin Black Line
September 28, 2006, 11:00 AM
Not to hi-jack this thread but lets say I were shooting my semi-auto rifle and the sear broke making said rifle go full auto.

LOL, good thing cook-offs don't count.

Wow re-reading that really makes me think of fearing the S.S, KGB, or the Stasi

And, there are more times where flashbangs are thrown into the wrong
house that you do not hear about in the news than what you do.

Best advice so far has been to call a lawyer first. It is quite possible
that the lawyer could make the un-papered weapon disappear from the
house through an arrangement with the local prosecutor that allows the
finder to remain anonymous. There would be plenty of letters and agreements
back and forth between the two lawyers documenting the surrender of
the weapon in advance. Obviously, this is to allow the lawyer to CYA and
more importantly his.

DonP
September 28, 2006, 11:00 AM
Sigh ...

We just had that happen near my home last year.

A guy remodeling the old family home tore down a closet his father had put up years ago and found a NIB Thompson, with three stick mags and some boxes of .45 ACP, vintage 1930's, between the studs.

They called the small town police about it and the police chief showed up to take possession of the "illegal" machine gun and see to it that it was properly taken care of.

I'm willing to bet that the gun is sitting in the police armory and the chief will see to it that it is properly "retired" to his home at some point.

I know the law, and I know Illinois and that's why I'm willing to make that bet.

Personally, I'd be tempted to clean it, oil it well, and wall it back up again with an 8# sledge leaning against the wall, ... just in case a museum needed it someday.

Sorry, I trust myself more than many local police departments in a corrupt city, county and state.

Keith Wheeler
September 28, 2006, 11:02 AM
Best advice so far has been to call a lawyer first. It is quite possible
that the lawyer could make the un-papered weapon disappear from the
house through an arrangement with the local prosecutor that allows the
finder to remain anonymous.

Yep. Very best advice. At least until the day the disappering bit goes the other way around...

Keith Wheeler
September 28, 2006, 11:15 AM
No such thing as a Class III firearm so I don't have to worry.

Err, yep. Correct terminology: "Title I" any firearm that isn't an NFA item, "Title II" anything that is.

NFA items: full auto (be it machine gun, SMG, machine pistol, automatic rifle), short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns, silencers, destructive devices, and "any other weapons", like pen guns or "assassination devices".

hammer4nc
September 28, 2006, 11:22 AM
The duty to preserve the legacy of a family heirloom, and the sacrifice of that honored uncle or grandfather, would most certainly outweigh fear of possible reprisal due to unreasonable regulations. I would try to find out the specific details related to this piece, and make a written record as to how, when, why it was acquired.

When the time came to pass this relic down to the next generation, it would make a terrific object lesson as to what is expected when honor and tyranny collide.

knuckles
September 28, 2006, 11:23 AM
Could you not just remove the receiver/seer (or whatever part it is that makes it NFA) and have new semi-auto parts machined? In other words convert full auto to semi? I mean, it won't be a machine gun, but it'll still be a great peice of history you could keep and even maybe use...

Keith Wheeler
September 28, 2006, 11:35 AM
Once a machine gun always a machine gun...unless destroyed. You pull all the internals and torch cut the receiver and the ATF will let you keep your pile of scrap metal.

ScottsGT
September 28, 2006, 12:32 PM
That same exact situation happened to a friend of mine about 4 years back, but he was the lawyer that got the call. It was a Browning 1919 setting on the tripod in an attic of a retired Army officer, turned state supreme court justice, way back years ago. I simply told him to call the rightful owners, the Museum at Fort Jackson. It's now on display there. Supposedly there was a footlocker or crate full of new Garands, but I never got to see them and they mysteriously dissapeared. I'm thinking this was thrown in to make the story more interesting. Hell, I didn't even want to go near the place.

Harry Tuttle
September 28, 2006, 12:38 PM
http://premium1.uploadit.org/docZox//schultz.jpg
"Oh, no. I don't see anything!
I hear nothing, nothing!
I know nothing, NOTHING!"

bg
September 28, 2006, 12:43 PM
Actually, yes, there's a good chance you will be arrested and charged with a felony, or at least have to endure some legal hell.

BAD idea to call the po-po's, unless you want to get a closeup of your kitchen floor with someone shouting at you after they charge in your door...and then get indicted on a felony charge. I can just about guarantee that they won't hear any word after "machine gun" or "full-auto". It's an evil unregistered machine gun, it's in your possession, end of story. You're a criminal.

Yes. It is that bad.
Yep the days of Andy and Barney using
some common sense when it comes between
the Police & the citizen who is only trying to do
the right thing, has gone out the door. In fact
I'm not sure it even existed when it comes to
an issue like this.

I will say though that Police have more than once
given me breaks on traffic tickets..:D

Wonder if a something like this qualifies for one of the
anti's gun buyback programs. Can you imagine the
looks on people's face were you to turn a Browning
MG in ? :confused:~:what:~:eek: = :evil:=;)

Duramaximum
September 28, 2006, 01:28 PM
As long as it's older than 1986, wouldn't it be legal anyway?

Third_Rail
September 28, 2006, 01:33 PM
Not unless it was registered previous to 1986.

Whirlwind06
September 28, 2006, 01:41 PM
Like I originally posted this is a total "what if" in my case.
I once did find a single shot sawed off 12 gauge in the street once (actually drove over it with my car). I called my local police district duty desk and told them I was going to bring it in. I handed it over and walked out the door. No report or anything. I guess I was lucky.

Spreadfire Arms
September 28, 2006, 01:55 PM
i am in the midst of tracking down a Class III weapon that another Class III dealer sent to the wrong address. it was supposed to go to me but went wayward.

needless to say i tracked it down. the recipient said they opened the package and freaked out and luckily, since they are law abiding, they didn't hock it. they simply didn't tell anyone about it and hoped that someone (namely ME) would go and contact them and politely ask for it.

i have contacted this Class III Dealer megastore and had a come-to-Jesus meeting with their shipping department, since this is the 2nd gun they had shipped to me that went elsewhere.

what a pain in the butt.

Third_Rail
September 28, 2006, 01:58 PM
Now that shouldn't happen. :what:

Thin Black Line
September 28, 2006, 02:19 PM
The duty to preserve the legacy of a family heirloom, and the sacrifice of that honored uncle or grandfather, would most certainly outweigh fear of possible reprisal due to unreasonable regulations.

Legacy, sacrifice, and honor seem to be very relevant for some people who
have little of these qualities and are often highly regulated by them as a
result of their own jealousy.

Hence, in our current GWOT, we may send home a bladed weapon as long
as it's not a switchbalde (which was a lightening up of older regs according
to my Gulf War buddies). Now, it was funny that I could get rusty AK
bayonets in the sandbox for nearly the same price as a new one here in the
US. But, wow, wouldn't it have been great to pick up a handgun like the
Luger my grandpa brought back from Europe?

This is the bottom line when it comes to restricted weapons be it machine
guns, silencers, switchblades, SBRs, or a mossberg attached below an AR15:

We Americans are to be cowed through a constant state of fear. When it
isn't WMDs from some foreign entity, it's the "guns in our streets" and
the biggest boogey man for that one is the dreaded machine gun. :evil: Anyone
who wants any of these restricted individual weapons MUST be a criminal
or terrorist.:rolleyes:

Manedwolf
September 28, 2006, 03:26 PM
When I lived in Florida, the Miami-Dade sherriff's office had to admit that they "lost" what they only described as a "twin fifty-caliber machine gun" from the evidence lockup. (didn't specify model) :eek:

I still wonder what the fate of THAT was...

DKSuddeth
September 28, 2006, 03:53 PM
what nobody else knows about, isn't going to hurt them. I'd keep it hidden, clean, and well maintained for the day it's absolutely necessary to use or the day that I don't have to worry about legal troubles because of it.

Keith Wheeler
September 28, 2006, 03:57 PM
what nobody else knows about, isn't going to hurt them. I'd keep it hidden, clean, and well maintained for the day it's absolutely necessary to use or the day that I don't have to worry about legal troubles because of it.

"Buckaroo, was that have a lawyer help make the unpapered machine-gun disappear or the other way around?"

knuckles
September 28, 2006, 04:06 PM
Once a machine gun always a machine gun...unless destroyed. You pull all the internals and torch cut the receiver and the ATF will let you keep your pile of scrap metal.

Bummer, the thought of torching a perfectly good MP40 just makes me want to projectile vomit.

Keith Wheeler
September 28, 2006, 04:09 PM
Bummer, the thought of torching a perfectly good MP40 just makes me want to projectile vomit.


Happens far more often than you'd want to know.

beerslurpy
September 28, 2006, 04:26 PM
Hide it until the next NFA amnesty or until they go door to door looking for it. Seriously, it belongs to you, so just put it back where you found it and dont tell anyone. It shouldnt end up in some ATF agent's private collection.

FeebMaster
September 28, 2006, 04:56 PM
Hide it until the next NFA amnesty

lol. Any day now.

Manedwolf
September 28, 2006, 05:20 PM
what nobody else knows about, isn't going to hurt them. I'd keep it hidden, clean, and well maintained for the day it's absolutely necessary to use or the day that I don't have to worry about legal troubles because of it.

Big sealable mortar tube, and a huge chunk of cosmoline liquified and poured in? :)

SuperiorMarksman_18
September 28, 2006, 07:36 PM
If I find a full auto in my Grandfathers attic after he dies and I think it's not legal, I'll just keep it and not tell anyone about it. Those a-holes from the ATF aren't taking something like that from me.

Tommygunn
September 28, 2006, 08:08 PM
Somebody posted about finding a Thompson in a wall of a house being renovated. A similar thing happened to a friend of mine when I lived in another state, maybe 15+ years ago.
His father died, and he asked me to help him go through his father's house and cart off stuff that he wasn't going to sell. In the back of his attic he had a large chest, with a padlock on it. He had to break open the padlock. Opening it, we came to a lot of WW2 stuff. His father had served in the army, and had been (IIRC) a leiutenant. We pulled out an old uniform, then a Colt 1911 wrapped up in old oilpaper of something. Under that we pulled out what was clearly a long gun, all wrapped in the same kind of oilpaper and tied off on each side with wire.
I still remember his shock opening it, and finding it was a 1928A1 Thompson.:eek: It was in OK shape, a lot of bluing on the edges was gone, and the wood a bit nicked up, but it seemed working.

To this day, I have NO IDEA what he did with it...and I don't wanna know!!!:rolleyes:

lamazza
September 28, 2006, 08:15 PM
How could you possibly worry that something unnoticed for 60 years will be revealed to ."the authorities"?

DRMMR02
September 28, 2006, 08:24 PM
Somebody posted about finding a Thompson in a wall of a house being renovated. A similar thing happened to a friend of mine when I lived in another state, maybe 15+ years ago.
His father died, and he asked me to help him go through his father's house and cart off stuff that he wasn't going to sell. In the back of his attic he had a large chest, with a padlock on it. He had to break open the padlock. Opening it, we came to a lot of WW2 stuff. His father had served in the army, and had been (IIRC) a leiutenant. We pulled out an old uniform, then a Colt 1911 wrapped up in old oilpaper of something. Under that we pulled out what was clearly a long gun, all wrapped in the same kind of oilpaper and tied off on each side with wire.
I still remember his shock opening it, and finding it was a 1928A1 Thompson. It was in OK shape, a lot of bluing on the edges was gone, and the wood a bit nicked up, but it seemed working.

To this day, I have NO IDEA what he did with it...and I don't wanna know!!!

RKBA completely aside, the sheer historical value of a find makes it wrong to have to destory something like that. My grandfather served in the Navy in the Pacific, and if some law said I had to destory some of his possesions from the war, I don't think i could comply. It just means too much. If I did find a Thompson, I wouldn't even fire it. It would get a good and careful cleaning, and a nice Oak display case.

OEF_VET
September 28, 2006, 08:31 PM
Err, yep. Correct terminology: "Title I" any firearm that isn't an NFA item, "Title II" anything that is.

NFA items: full auto (be it machine gun, SMG, machine pistol, automatic rifle), short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns, silencers, destructive devices, and "any other weapons", like pen guns or "assassination devices".

Well, technically, all firearms are NFA firearms, since NFA34 is the legislation that gave us the terms Title I and Title II. It's just that everyone, including the folks at BATFE, has more or less always meant Title II firearms when they use the term NFA weapons.

KellyTTE
September 28, 2006, 08:35 PM
http://www.furrycritterz.com/images/images-information-links/construction.jpg

I'd bury that thing. ;)

'Tilla

Glockfan.45
September 28, 2006, 08:48 PM
A guy remodeling the old family home tore down a closet his father had put up years ago and found a NIB Thompson, with three stick mags and some boxes of .45 ACP, vintage 1930's, between the studs.


In all honesty if I found the previous home owners jerry rigged full auto Tec-9 under the workbench in the garage into the river it goes. If I were to find what was described above it would get a dummy reciever and a nice display case. As for the actual reciever, and internals.........:rolleyes: what nobody knows dont hurt em. Id stash that stuff far away though.

Autolycus
September 28, 2006, 09:03 PM
I dont think some things should be disturbed. I think it would be a defective gun since it has not gone on a homicidal rampage and killed any children. So if anything I would just put it back and save it for a time when it might be needed.

Molon Labe
September 28, 2006, 09:09 PM
What if you were cleaning out the attic of a recently passed away uncle or grandfather. And you found a war trophy say a German MP-40 or a Thomson 45.
Or an full auto AK-47 for that matter.I would add it to my collection. And shoot it in the backyard. Just like any of my other rifles.

DRMMR02
September 28, 2006, 09:12 PM
The people who actually use these guns to kill innocensts seem to have access to them no matter what the law says. So why can't we have them to shoot in our backyards again?

bamawrx
September 28, 2006, 09:35 PM
This happened to me while helping to clean out a family members things following a death. Turns out the item was NFA registered, but no one knew it existed. I figured it was contraband, but it turned out ok in the end. Not sure what we would have done if it was contraband. Thank goodness we didn't have to make that call. We were able to get the item sold to another family member for the $5 C&R fee.

Prince Yamato
September 28, 2006, 10:00 PM
From ATF Website:

(M9) What should a person do if he or she comes into possession of an unregistered NFA firearm?

Contact the nearest ATF office immediately.

Just play dumbass. Turn it in. Honestly, say you saw it in the street, thought it was a toy. Whoops, it's a heavy. It's REAL? wow. No one get any bright ideas. Keep your asses out of jail. My $0.02. :scrutiny:

I don't agree with NFA laws, but the HELL I'll go to prison over a felony posession charge. If I want an NFA gun, I'll BUY one.

69Chevy
September 28, 2006, 10:11 PM
I'm not turning it in. Especially if its a historical weapon, that would just kill me inside. Keep it tucked away, don't brag about it, and NEVER fire it unless you happen to live in wyoming with no neighbors for miles. I know of some guys in the air force who picked up AKs from afghanistan because they thought they were cool. I doubt they know the severity of the law if caught with them stateside. Funny thing is one of the guys knows very little about guns and said he was never going to use it and it was offered for sale to a friend(also in the military) for $300. :uhoh:

Prince Yamato
September 28, 2006, 10:13 PM
Good point on the war relics thing. Who wants to bet that there'll be an amnesty if a bunch of Iraq war vets get arrested for possesion? I'd be damned if ANY politician would want to be known as the one who let a vetern of the War on Terror rot in prison for bringing back a war trophy.

NastyNate
September 28, 2006, 10:23 PM
Clean it and put it in the safe. Shoot it on the weekends at the back of the farm. No way in hell would I turn it in. Never.

Zedicus
September 28, 2006, 10:40 PM
The problem as I see it is with the system as it is no matter what you do you'll have trouble.

Either way you will most likely get jail time, a huge fine and possibly even a Felony Conviction.

It's a sad thing that things have gotten this bad.

Sistema1927
September 28, 2006, 11:24 PM
This has got to be one of the most depressing threads that I have read in some quite some time.

Whatever happened to freedom?

Molon Labe
September 28, 2006, 11:29 PM
Clean it and put it in the safe. Shoot it on the weekends at the back of the farm. No way in hell would I turn it in. Never.My thoughts exactly.

The problem as I see it is with the system as it is no matter what you do you'll have trouble.Well, no one ever said freedom was free.

Molon Labe
September 28, 2006, 11:30 PM
This has got to be one of the most depressing threads that I have read in some quite some time.

Whatever happened to freedom?We exchanged it for servitude.

gunsmith
September 29, 2006, 03:13 AM
Who wants to bet that there'll be an amnesty if a bunch of Iraq war vets get arrested for possesion?

A bunch of vets from the current conflict are serving time
for smuggling AK's

johnsonrlp
September 29, 2006, 04:02 AM
Unfortunately our government trusts us soldiers a lot less than civilians. No carry on post, weapons registeration, require to store unloaded and locked. Limited free speech, warrantless searches of off post homes, double jeopardy, etc, etc, etc... It's a shame that to defend the Constitution I don't get most of it's benefits.

GBOT, Molon Labe!

Manedwolf
September 29, 2006, 04:15 AM
No carry on post, weapons registeration, require to store unloaded and locked. Limited free speech, warrantless searches of off post homes, double jeopardy,

In Switzerland, all citizens serving in their military, which is all able-bodied men of certain ages, keep an SMG at home.

I guess they trust their people more. What are you supposed to do if a jihad nut decides to bust into a stateside base and go postal?

johnsonrlp
September 29, 2006, 04:43 AM
What would we do? We would wait in line outside the arms room with our weapons cards in our hands. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
I've got more ammo in my closet than is in my battery's arms room.

But it's ok, you have to have a DL, insurance and reg. to get past the gate guards and their M9s. :banghead: They even glance at military IDs, don't really need to look at the person holding it or anyone else in the car, right? :cuss: And every now and then they look at random vehicles, of course they just look at stuff they don't actually inspect. Nobody would ever hide anything under or behind something :banghead:

Fn-P9
September 29, 2006, 07:31 AM
I dont mean to get too far off topic but I was driving my truck through the airport (parking garage) and I had to stop at a check point. He asked if he could inspect in the back. I said you want me to get out to look behind the seat?!:confused: He said "No, I need permission to look in the back. The bed area." :what: hahaha

The Drew
September 29, 2006, 08:27 AM
Two words... Shovel, Cosmoline...

shooting time
September 29, 2006, 08:48 AM
About 16 yrs ago before i knew what i know now i was purchasing a thompson M1A1 from a army vet who had carryed it with him thru his career in korea grenada and nam.he told me it was registered so i agreed to buy it from him .I filled out the form 4 with the serial # next thing ATF calls me and asks where the gun is that it is not registered.I had posession of it called this guy up got the papers off him he had the papers from the military where he brought it back to the US from tan hut air base he thought that they were resistration papers. ATF says they are sending out agents to pick up the gun .I immediatly turned on my mig welder and went to work on the gun ,welded up the bolt to barrel end of the barrel filled up with weld. Atf gets there i give them the gun he was mad he either wanted to keep it or lock me up but couldnt due to the gun being welded.I didn't remember what i did with the magazine and got calls from him for weeks after asking for the mag .i told him if he needed one so bad i would go buy one and send it to him. I was out 1000.00 on that deal could have been worse .

Thin Black Line
September 29, 2006, 08:52 AM
In all honesty if I found the previous home owners jerry rigged full auto Tec-9 under the workbench in the garage into the river it goes.

Sounds like a good place for the semi-auto tec9 as well.

A bunch of vets from the current conflict are serving time
for smuggling AK's

Including (gasp) some officers. Now that's an interesting switch when it
comes to the lack of prosecution of officers at Abu Ghraib. Kind of shows
you what the feds are really more concerned about, doesn't it?!

Keith Wheeler
September 29, 2006, 09:02 AM
Whatever happened to freedom?

It got sold in 1934 so we could duck hunt.

Thin Black Line
September 29, 2006, 09:06 AM
And 1968, 1986, 1994 (temporary reprieve), and 2008. Sorry --getting ahead
of myself.

Green Lantern
September 29, 2006, 09:07 AM
I have zero interest in owning a full-auto, mainly for financial reasons.

I have next to zero chance of being in this situation.

But this thread DOES depress - nay, sicken me! :mad: The fact that law-abiding citizens, acting in good faith, are prosecuted as criminals for trying...no, DOING the right thing...! :fire: :fire: :fire: :cuss:

And thank God for this place, and this topic....because if I were in a similar situation before, I'd probably do the same thing in my ignorance and walk right to the sheriff's office and ask him "what now?"

Then again, my sheriff is a pretty decent guy as far as I know...he might not take the Jack-Booted Thug route on me. And if throwing the book at someone for trying to take a gun off the street isn't "Jack-Booted Thuggery," I don't know what is! :mad: (because before this topic, I was giving serious thought to the crowd that says the "JBT" is a figment of our imagination... )

So anyway...if I moved in somewhere and found a rusty old junker...I'd pay a lawyer to sweat the details for me.

If I DID find a family heirloom somehow...I would quite probably take a different route.

Keith Wheeler
September 29, 2006, 09:22 AM
The fact that law-abiding citizens, acting in good faith, are prosecuted as criminals for trying...no, DOING the right thing...!

Bureaucracies driven by numbers games loose sight of the necessary humanity governments must possess to properly serve 'the people'. Think about it, what do we hear from even those politicians who support 2A concerns? "Well, I understand you have concerns about the BATFExyz, but according to their reports they took thousands of illegal weapons off the streets last year..."

That robotic nonsense drilled into our leaders and our citizens is a breeding ground for abuse. Who cares if you're just a good citizen turning in an illegal weapon? If their funding comes from arrest numbers and such, they will indeed arrest you. Many years ago our government and corporations forgot that the whole point of this experiment is life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. Greed and power creep in, the institutions no longer exist as a champion of those three fundamental and indisputable requirements to live as humans, rather these institutions only champion themselves. It's not a question of good and evil, rather a question of the sad endgame of all large organizations.

Edited to add this little story:

When I was working on my MBA, I worked as a graduate assistant for our local "Small Business Development Center". These are little .gov offices that are there to help small businesses do research, find funding, etc. These folks record every business that comes in their door, even if to just use the library for research. Anything good that happens to these businesses will go in to the SBDC's annual report -- "we helped create thousands of jobs, thousands in sales, blah blah" when basically all they do is operate a library. In my state this place is run by an ex high-school principal who just happens to be married to the right .gov fellow. Their two largest budgetary line items? Executive salaries, and their annual "trade show". What's the "trade show"? Well, that's when they set up booths at the state capital, buy presents for the state legislators, and try and convince them to increase the SBDC's funding. What a waste. But they've got the numbers that show they're doing a "good job". It's disgusting. And they are completely enamoured with their own existence and worth....the smugness of an ATF office must be hideous, since on top of that self-perpetuating "we're doing a great job" is the importance of saving all those children from all those machine guns...

Jeff
September 30, 2006, 12:27 AM
Are there any documented cases of people having found these DEWATS and, wanting to do the "safe" thing, contacted the authorities, only to be prosecuted-- or even charged?

Mens rea plays a huge part in this type of legal scenario, and it is extremely difficult to prove mens rea, especially if you really had no idea of what was in your possession. I don't know, I think you guys are mostly scaring yourselves.

Someone do the following test. Call up a local BATFE office, and ask them, "What if I found an old war trophy in my uncle's house, and I didn't want it. What should I do? I don't want to get in trouble."

What do you think the BATFE is going to actually say? "Well, Mr. So-and-so, since you found it, you are automatically in trouble. Don't hand it in, because we will arrest you. Don't keep it, because you will have commited a felony, and we will really arrest you."

Seriously.

Edited to add: If the BATFE is sooo interested in getting these guns out of the hands of citizens-- or is sooo interested in keeping them for themselves-- why in the world would they make it fearful for finders of such items to hand them in and get them off the street in the first place?

There is no logic to your assumptions.

pete f
September 30, 2006, 01:41 AM
There is another option, called a Private Bill, which is a Federal piece of Legislation that is used for the exact limits of what it is said to be. In other words, It is a Federal Law that is passed to apply to ONE specific person/action/event and is not considered precedent under a Court but is accepted as Law. This is often done with regards to people who get caught in a federal law trap where in they are NOT breaking the law, but the law was written in such a way as to make them criminals. Hard to explain but if you Google Private Bill legislation you can find some of them. These are used to add people to lists of benefactors of Laws that somehow left them off by mistake, to clear people of infractions that they own a house in a land that becomes national park/monument and need to repair a road that is on an easemant that is not part of the enabling Legislation.

But I know of two cases of WW2 war trophies being vetted in as registered weapons based on either lack of knowledge about the Amnesty or what the weapon was. One was a gun brought home by a soldier who became a missionary and was out of the country for years at a time, at his passing, his grandson went to his state's senator and got a private bill passed that papered the gun by saying his granddad being out of the country had no knowledge of the illegality of the weapon. The other was a gun brought back and the owner died in the fifties and his widow just kept the hubby's footlocker locked up in the attic until she passed. Again the owner's Heir was able to convince his State senator that there was no intent and no possible way for the Widow to know what was in the footlocker.


"A private bill provides benefits to specified individuals (including corporate bodies). Individuals sometimes request relief through private legislation when administrative or legal remedies are exhausted. Many private bills deal with immigration–granting citizenship or permanent residency. Private bills may also be introduced for individuals who have claims against the government, veterans benefits claims, claims for military decorations, or taxation problems. The title of a private bill usually begins with the phrase, "For the relief of. . . ." If a private bill is passed in identical form by both houses of Congress and is signed by the President, it becomes a private law." This is from the US senates own webpage.

A side piece. As Private Bills are granted for one or very few peoples benefit and CAN often be of or about contentious issues, very rarely are they debated or challenged. In the Senate, they are regarded as a Gentlemans agreement, the Senator is in fact backing the legislation with their own personal imprateur or reputation and thus they almost always pass without objection. They are not rare nor are they out of the ordinary to have such bills covering such things. I know of another Private Bill that allowed a family that inherited a Plains Indian headdress to actually possess it in the family store as otherwise it was a federal offense due the the headdresss containing Eagle feathers.

If you find what can be considered a good find war trophy, approaching a Law Maker with the desire for a private bill registration might very well be your best bet. Some will not touch it. Some are more than willing. How is usually written is that the law does not mention the firearm at all, but instead declares for the relief of john doe, heir of john henry doe. that due to such issues as we see fit, the constraints of law HR XXXX are singularly waived for the period of X to Y, . signed Pres.

what this does is allow the named party to go to the ATF and say, I want to register this as a amnesty weapon, and the law of the USA says I can.

Here is a link to just a list of PB's passed in 1993 just to show the form
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d103&querybd=@FIELD(FLD001+@4(Private+legislation))


you know when you here that "by a special Act of Congress, John Doe was granted rights to his families Land." or "by a special Act of Congress, John Doe was granted Citizenship to the USA for his service to america" those are private bill legislations.


I do not have a count, but at some time, I was pretty sure there were MANY hundreds in a year that went thru and they were usually bulk packed together to pass without objections.

Zedicus
September 30, 2006, 01:52 AM
what this does is allow the named party to go to the ATF and say, I want to register this as a amnesty weapon, and the law of the USA says I can.

I very Seriously Doubt that it would work, need any reason for my saying this, Look no Further than the recent BATFE Reclassifications, They are Essentialy Creating Custom Laws on the Fly Just to go after Gun owners.

silverlance
September 30, 2006, 11:53 AM
since during WWII my family was just trying very hard to stay out of camps. no, not in europe.

oh sure, a couple of the family went to europe - but they were busy trying to figure out what was going on without understanding english. i doubt they had much time to sneak home any toys.

but - knowing what has happened in the past in the old US of A -

i'd try to make sure some decendant of mine gets to have the same dilemma.

Skywarp
September 30, 2006, 02:17 PM
Keep it

Buy a pelican case and the corresponding ammo

Bury the gun and ammo in the backyard

Wait for the revolution

Be the baddest mothaf**** on the block and start my own country.

mike101
September 30, 2006, 03:38 PM
You're damn right keep it. I'd do the same thing, except bury it. I don't think I could do that. I'd stash it somewhere indoors and keep it for when you start your own country. I hope I find a B.A.R.! :evil:

Nicky Santoro
September 30, 2006, 04:03 PM
colt1911a2
If I found a machine gun I would keep it and keep my mouth shut.
I wouldnt care about risk of getting caught It wouldnt happen I would make sure of it.I ignore alot of the risks and restrictive gun laws I do whatever I want.

What he said...

And to some others here.. Jeez, Darlene, grow a pair. As long as you grab your ankles every time the political class commands, the more they will command.

John-Melb
September 30, 2006, 05:50 PM
The gun banners don't give a rats about the historic, cultural or heirloom value or such things. They are ciltural vandals of the highest order.

I'm an Australian, I've lived through TWO buybacks, I've heard of already deactivated German MP18 SMG's being taken from museums, and crushed. I've seen Artillery Lugers go the same way (one was mine!)

Gun confiscation programs cannot work without registration.

Cannot tell others what to do, and twenty years ago my answer would've been completely different, but my Government has already, repeatadly shown it's distruct and contempt for me, it'd be a case of "What machinegun?":neener: :neener: :neener:

tellner
September 30, 2006, 05:51 PM
The only thing I will say in a semi-public place which may be monitored by Federal law enforcement is:

"I would turn it and myself in to the authorities immediately, Friend Citizen. That would be the law-abiding thing to do."

solareclipse
October 1, 2006, 01:57 AM
i would keep it and enjoy it.. finders keepers... :p :D

Macpherson
October 1, 2006, 04:18 AM
First, if I found a functional Thompson (any variety) and stick mags and ammo in the wallboard, I'd be needing a clean pair of drawers :D. I would very definitely get the camera and take some pictures, and handle things very carefully from there on...and that's all I'm saying on the matter.

I do think it's despicable that priceless historical heirlooms and mementos are being destroyed simply because a bunch of bureaucrats somewhere decided during lunch yesterday that these weapons are evil and must be destroyed, along with anyone who was in contact with them, or knew of their existence. We don't have a totalitarian government (yet!), but some branches of it are more totalitarian than others :banghead:

evan price
October 1, 2006, 11:14 PM
I say, "What gun?"


:D



(OT:Supposedly there is this guy known as "Johnny Glockenseed" that leaves Fat-50 cans with interesting contents buried at waypoints on his GPS all over the place...)

Third_Rail
October 1, 2006, 11:15 PM
Geocaching firearms does happen, yes. :)

Geronimo45
October 1, 2006, 11:30 PM
I'd assume it was a non-firing replica, clean throroughly, and put away until there is an urgent need for same.

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