[Cousin Mike]

Yeah, I know, I know... A S&W 500 Magnum is HUGE.

BUT...

Thanks to these new huge revolvers and the calibers they are chambered for (.480 Ruger, .460 and .500 S&W Magnum, .454 Casull, etc.) we finally have pistol rounds that do rifle damage. So since the general concensus is that rifles are better than pistols for stopping power, and we have handguns now that equal or surpass that kind of stopping power, why is it that people say,

"That's too much for self defense,"

:confused:

What's up with that?! In my way of thinking, nothing coming out of a pistol/revolver/rifle/shotgun is too much for self defense.

Someone please make this make sense to me, and tell me whether or not you'd consider one of the super calibers for protection against 2-legged animals, and why...

[Plastic Cowboy]

A large gun is more difficult to conceal, the recoil (especially on a 4" S&w .500) is VERY severe meaning it will take awhile to get back on target for a second shot, over penetration may damage or injure behind your target, the report will likely do permanant damage to your ears and anyone else's that happens to be in the general area, huge muzzle flash at night will blind you, you only have 5 rounds in this gun even though you will be in no condition to fire the rest anyway after the first one, ummmm.....anything else???

Certainly a 500 could be used for self defense but you would only want to as a last resort. There is a reason that police and the military carry medium powered weapons like .45ACP, .40, 9mm etc.

[Nitrogen]

If you can conceal one, and quickly draw one, and place 2 shots at the thorassic cavity quickly, then sure, go ahead.

[Cousin Mike]

Understood... should've been more specific in my post. I DO NOT mean for regular carry - that's obviously a bad idea if you're usually in a highly populated area. But for home defense? Winter carry? Occasional? I've found the S&W 500's recoil to be NOTHING near as bad as I expected, and that's what got me thinking about it.

[TonyB]

Maybe if you were attacked by a freaking water buffalo.....;)
Or if you want to kill the BG and his Hummer.....:neener:

[Plastic Cowboy]

Now if you are talking about a big bad guy who weighs 2500lbs and has leathery hide an inch thick then yes--- you DO need a 500. As for me- Paul Bunyan doesn't come around here much anymore!!:D


on the other hand- if you are a bad guy and find yourself looking down the big fat half inch cavern of a 500 S&W, I would suggest that you immediatly crap your pants, give the guy back his wallet, and lay down on the ground with your hands above your head cause this thing will open a garage door in ya!!!:eek:

[Master Blaster]

If you lined up Osama Bin Ladden, Ayman Al Zawahri, Azzam the American, Aminadijahd, and Saddam, one behind the other and then you put a water buffalo behind them, the bullet from a 500 S&W would go through them all. All 5 would drop like they were hit by a lightning bolt, BUT the bullet would probably bounce right off the Water Buffalo.

So if you were worried about the water buffalo attacking after you shot the others, I would say you need a bigger gun like a rifle in 50 BMG.

However If you were just worried about the first five attacking you at once the .500 would be an adequate defense round.

If however you were shooting at a fat criminal in your house at 3 am, I wouldnt want to be your neighbor.

[Cousin Mike]

Some pretty funny responses so far.

I'm more worried about the 300 lb. bad guy. Not that I think a S&W .500 is NECESSARY, but then again people talk about the 12ga. being the perfect gun for self-defense...

A 12ga. slug is .73 caliber! :what:

I don't know. I guess I just don't understand why a 12ga. (or any shotgun load, most of which the slugs are .50"+) is "perfect," but a .500 S&W, or .50 AE is "too much." Or why the .357 Magnum is "perfect," but .44 Magnum is "too much," once again.

Doesn't make much sense to me.

[EddieCoyle]

Understood... should've been more specific in my post. I DO NOT mean for regular carry - that's obviously a bad idea if you're usually in a highly populated area. But for home defense? Winter carry? Occasional? I've found the S&W 500's recoil to be NOTHING near as bad as I expected, and that's what got me thinking about it.

I'd like to invite you to come to my local indoor range where I'll set up three man-sized targets at 7 yards and turn out the lights. You can then take my 4" S&W 500 and, without hearing protection, fire a shot at each. Then, when you are able to see again, I'll use sign language to explain to you why it's not ideal for home defense. If you don't understand sign language, I'll write down the reasons on the two targets without holes.

[HMMurdock]

Rifles are best for defense not just because of stopping power but because rifles are an easier and more efficient platform for aiming and hitting what youre aiming at. Just because a pistol does rifle-caliber damage doesnt mean you will be able to hit the broad side of a barn with it. I'll take a 9mm carbine rifle for defense over a .500S&W handgun any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Unless I'm facing a grizzly or a drugged up Nazi...

A properly placed handgun round of any caliber will do more damage than a poorly placed rifle round.

.500S&W is a wonderful caliber and a sweet package in a handgun, but like any firearm it is a tool. You wouldn't want to use a .500 for defense any more than you'd want to use a screwdriver as a hammer. That us, of course, unless you absolutely HAD to!

And I'd hate to have to explain to the responding police officer why you shot a .500 round into an intruder or would-be mugger, especially after the round penetrates and possibly hurts an innocent bystander...

And by defense I mean against people. .500s are popular in places like Alaska where you need something that big to penetrate a Grizzly Bear or ticked off Moose and a traveling with a rifle isn't feasible.

TRL

[Cousin Mike]

You can then take my 4" S&W 500 and, without hearing protection, fire a shot at each. Then, when you are able to see again, I'll use sign language to explain to you why it's not ideal for home defense. If you don't understand sign language, I'll write down the reasons on the two targets without holes.

I hope this was supposed to be comedic. However, the flash off a .500, while impressive, isn't going to blind anyone. I've seen .454's and even .44 Magnums give off a lot bigger fireball than the .500. I'm also nowhere near a bad shot, so the 'two targets without holes' part is a little silly.

But that thing IS loud... I'll take up your invitation if you go first. :D

[EddieCoyle]

I hope this was supposed to be comedic.

Yeah, I meant it tongue-in-cheek. It's too loud and flashy for use as a HD caliber though. The flash may not look too bright outside in the daytime, but awakened from sleep, in the dark, it would be disorienting.

As for loud, someone on another forum posted that when he fired his 4" at an indoor range, the fluorescent light tubes above him exploded from the concussion! :eek:

You'll also not find many people here that advocate the use of 12 gauge slugs for home inside use. Slugs penetrate too much. Most people will agree that 12 gauge buckshot is better for HD. I use No. 1 buckshot.

I've seen .454's and even .44 Magnums give off a lot bigger fireball than the .500

Cousin Mike, I'll put my S&W 500 up against either of those in a fireball contest. I get to use my handloads though.

[MrAcheson]

I'm more worried about the 300 lb. bad guy. Not that I think a S&W .500 is NECESSARY, but then again people talk about the 12ga. being the perfect gun for self-defense...

A 12ga. slug is .73 caliber!Nobody suggests you use shotgun slugs for self defense against people. That is equally stupid for similar reasons. People suggest you use anything from #1 shot to #000. In that case you are throwing almost as much lead, but in .25 to .38 size pellets which will overpenetrate less and make more holes.

Perhaps if you live in Alaska and have to worry about moose or brown bear wandering the streets at night, you might want a huge revolver. But for two legged pests, stick with something manageable and just make more holes instead of bigger ones.

[Cousin Mike]

Hmmm... Okay, I'm starting to get it I guess.

Yeah, I meant it tongue-in-cheek. It's too loud and flashy for use as a HD caliber though. The flash may not look too bright outside in the daytime, but awakened from sleep, in the dark, it would be disorienting.

FWIW, I about spit my drink out when I read your first post.. I thought it was hilarious, just wanted to make sure you weren't serious serious about going blind. I'd love to see what some super-hot handloads can produce flash-wise from a .500 S&W. There's a thread about night-shooting pics somewhere around here. Some impressive pictures in there, huge fireballs! But, those folks weren't just waking up to a bump in the night, and that is a different thing completely.

Nobody suggests you use shotgun slugs for self defense against people. That is equally stupid for similar reasons.

Maybe you don't recommend it. But I've heard slugs recommended for SD, and I know a few people who keep slugs for their shotguns.

As for the size/power of the .500 making it less-than-ideal for the purposes of SD, I guess I have to agree. Mainly because you'd be painted as a crazy person for having such a 'big gun'. Other than that, I don't see much of a downside. As long as you don't live somewhere crowded, I'd think the bigger magnums would be great for SD.

I don't see how it's much different than those revolvers that shoot .410 shotshells - that are advertised as 'anti-carjacker' guns.

[vynx]

One word overpenitration.

Hey Mike is there a lighter load for the .500? Like shooting a .44 special in a .44 magnum or a .45 cowboy load in a .454 casull?

[Plastic Cowboy]

Hell-- even if you dont pull the trigger you could swing it at him....damn thing weighs more that a Louiville slugger:D

[Plastic Cowboy]

I do believe there is a .500 special that was recently released by Cor-bon.

[EddieCoyle]

Hell-- even if you dont pull the trigger you could swing it at him....damn thing weighs more that a Louiville slugger

I just leave mine in front of the door. The bad guys can't even open it. :D

[Seancass]

ya know, with how big these guns are already, it is plausible to mount a boxing glove on the end of it and shoot a blank. you'd KO them, then you could dispose of them as you please. if you dont feel like dealing with cops, just throw them in the truck and dump them out in the country somewhere. no harm done.

http://www.dollardays.com/images/k03/kk-818.jpg

[Cousin Mike]

I do believe there is a .500 special that was recently released by Cor-bon.

I looked it up.. Here's what I was able to find in about 10 seconds from Cor-Bon's website.

Cor-Bon 500 S&W Special 275gr. DPX: 1250 fps/954ft. lbs

Cor-Bon 500 S&W Magnum 275gr. DPX: 1665 fps/1688ft. lbs

Cor-Bon 500 S&W Magnum 325gr. DPX: 1800 fps/2338ft. lbs

Okay.. well, now I know why the Magnum load isn't a great idea.. I never really looked up the ft. lbs of energy expended... wow. The Special load, however, seems like it would be great for SD with those numbers. Still brutal, but not super-duper overkill like the Magnum load...

Hmmm. :D

.500 S&W Special for SD, anyone?

[EddieCoyle]

Cousin Mike,

There's no need to buy the .500 Special. You can simply down-load the .500 Mag. I use the Rainier plated 335 grain bullets over 12 grains of Titegroup. You can shoot these all day. Heck, my 12 year old son practically runs me out of the stuff.

More importantly, these loads cost less than $0.20 each. Don't handload? If you're going to get a S&W 500 you might want to start. Factory ammo is about $1.50 per shot!

I still wouldn't use it for HD.

[Socrates]

I LOVE big bullets. Don't have to worry about the hollowpoint plugging, etc.

After Platt, and the non-penetration of that slug, I've always felt most at home with my big bores.
Curently my favorite load is a 400 grain Hornady XTP, in .475 Linebaugh, at 1350 fps across a chrono, out of my FA 83 7.5" barrel. It's the most accurate gun I've EVER shot, points and handles like a dream, and, that load is intresting. Apparently a guy ham shot a deer, going away from him. Bullet went in, expanded to full size, cut a huge hole, and, the deer died after going 50 yards. WHY? Non-fatal hit, don't know but a big hole, and, the bullet expanded beautifully.

Most current hollow points are designed to penetrate 12-14 inches. Doesn't seem to matter what caliber, that's industry standard, and regardless if you've got a 44 magnum, a 45 Heavy long Colt, they still find a way to reduce penetration, and negate the effectiveness of the caliber, so, when M&S do their stopping stuff, the 44 magnum rates below a 357, etc.

So, guys that buy this stuff for police groups that actually use 45 Colt recommend, and buy, heavy for caliber hollow points. In fact, the heavist they can find in that caliber, designed for human-deer size targets.

Point is, I want enough velocity, and enough bullet weight for the bullet to open up, make a big, long hole, and exit. My situation is such that I shoot into a solid wall of mud on one side, a golf course on the other, and, only one possible shot shoots were other people might be struck. Just don't take that shot.

Some of you folks are complaining that blast and noise are bad for the shooter. What about the Bad Guy? How would you like a .475 or 500 caliber expanding bullet, plus a flameball to burn your eyebrows off, and your hair, and deafen you?

Study was done by some M.E.'s on 357 'one shot stops'.
Major factors in these were they almost all occured at night, at close range, like 10 feet or closer, usually an officer discharging his backup gun, short barreled, 357, right in the guys face. Often the BG would give up, not from the damage done by the bullet, but, not being able to see, or hear, and, not wanting to get hit, again, at short range.

One very wise old ammo company owner suggested getting the heaviest hollow point I could find in .357, and stabilize, read 158 grains, and just light it off. Same theory.

The only real problem with .500's is finding a suitable hollow point for people, not that you really need one, and, making sure you don't have something behind them, when you shoot. I suspect Hornady's 325 grain XTP, in 480 ruger would be a great SD load, at 1200 fps, or so. But, I like that 400 grain HP. Easy to shoot, not that load...Feels like a 22lr compared to my version of a S&W 500, a Linebaugh Max. .510. I'd love to have some Hawk .510 soft, thin jacketed HPS loaded, 450 grains, but, for now, I have to be happy with 525 grain LFN's at 1350 fps. Life is full of compromises....
;)

S

PS
I've scene a couple guns, .500 JRH, SRH with a 2" barrel that would be perfect for close range protection, with heavy hollow points, at close range, or bear loads...

PPS
The most compelling argument for not using your big gun for defense is it's going to be in an evidence locker, where it may get 'lost' by the police, for a long time, after you use it...

[shooting on a shoestring]

Cousin,

After I post this I'll go to bed with a .45 Colt Blackhawk on the nightstand, loaded 6 times with 250 gr Speer Gold Dots on top of 23 gr of H4227 that cross my chronograph at 1270 to 1300. Your .500 S&W would be only 0.050" larger (actually, my barrel is 0.452, so maybe only 0.048" larger). Bullet weight of 250 gr vs 275, not much difference. I'd say it could make a great HD piece provided you can shoot it well.

Over penetration is a desirable quality. If my bullet doesn't exit the bad guy, I haven't used enough gun. I want the bad guy to bleed out as fast as possible, and hopefully even have some pieces of bone floating in the stream. Where will my bullet stop? Probably in a tree, a brick wall or a field.

I wonder about the folks preaching against two holes per shot. My prejudice leads me to believe lots of them would empty a 10 round magazine and score 2 or 3 hits on a bad guy leaving 7 or 8 bullets over penetrating into who knows what.

A flash from a muzzle blast at night will not keep me from firing a second time, but, if there's only one bad guy leaking on each side from holes .45 and larger, a second shot seems superfulous.

Time for sleep. I'm going to range tomorrow to make sure I don't loose the necessary survival skill.

[Steve C]

In my way of thinking, nothing coming out of a pistol/revolver/rifle/shotgun is too much for self defense.


Only someone who has never shot a S&W .500 could think this way.

Get a chance to shoot one, try it and all your questions will be answered and your opinion changed quickly.

[Cousin Mike]

In my 2nd post I said that the recoil of the S&W .500 was nothing like I thought it would be.. meaning:

I have shot a S&W .500, and thought the recoil to be manageable.

Not everyone is a recoil sissy. :D

[EddieCoyle]

I have shot a S&W .500, and thought the recoil to be manageable.

"Manageable" is relative.

If you mean that the .500's recoil is manageable in that the gun doesn't fly out of your hands and no bones get broken, then I'll agree with you. But if by manageable you mean that after a shot, the sights are aligned for a follow-up, I'll have to disagree. If you're strong enough to keep that beast on target, you don't even need to load it - just throw it at your attacker and worry about over-penetration.

With that said, I've put 250 rounds through mine in an afternoon at the range. I'm no recoil sissy.:D

[Stainz]

When It first came out, I thought the 3" (That last inch is a comp...) .500 with 440gr LWFN at 800 fps would be a great bg stopper. That works out to 625 ft-lb - and, in a bigger bg, one devastating hole. I couldn't swing the $880 my pusher wanted, so I went home to 'develop' a similar load in something I had - a 629MG. I ended up with a 300gr LSWC pushing 885 fps for 520 ft-lb, probably sufficient.

Well, I already had a sufficient home protector - and went back to it - 200gr GDHP's in .44 Special at 805 fps frrom my 2.5" 296. Now, I carry a 'spare' 625MG in .45 Colt loaded with 255gr LSWC and thin walled 250gr GDHP's - at 875 fps. Then I saw the advert on the 'Outdoor Channel' for 'The Judge' by Taurus - a long cylindered shorter barrel .45 Colt/.410 five-banger. If it was as well made - and had the good trigger - of the .45 ACP Tracker a friend had, it would make a good car/house gun... even a .410 makes an interesting pattern at 5yd when spun by rifling... neat ad.

I guess I talked myself out of the .500 Magnum... mainly the cost. My reloading would bring the price down - but not to .44-.45 levels. Plus, I'll admit it... the years are adding up... that .454 SRH I had for years, shooting hundreds of 240gr XTP's at ~2k fps and thousands of hot .45 Colt loads from, was traded away nearly two years ago - for a new 5" h-l 686+. My Magnums are all loaded @ <1k fps. I even put Hogue .500 Magnum grips on my 629's. Carpal tunnel problems and arthritis have taken their toll... I have become a recoil weenie... heck, I even bought a Ruger BHG SSM and reload .32's for it... nothing like a .312" 115gr LRNFP at 730 fps...

No. I wouldn't use a 3" .500 for protection... maybe replace a mushroom anchor for a small boat, however...

Stainz

PS The worst recoiler to me is a .50AE DE... not the straight recoil, but that severe twist when the bolt slams hurts!