It is time for a lot of history lessons


May 13, 2003, 10:41 PM
The 2nd Amendment was ratified on December 15, 1791.
Everyone, even kids, that could afford a firearm could get one, no questions asked. That is, until the 1960s.
Although anyone and everyone could carry, open or concealed, where I was, to my knowledge, there were very few cases of misuse of firearms by the ordinary citizen, even during the depression.
From the time I was 10 (1945), I often carried a single shot .22 rifle either hunting or target shooting.
When someone had the idea of misusing a firearm, they knew the other person was probably armed.
How times have changed. Now, when someone wants to misuse a firearm, chances are the victims are unarmed.

All of you other old timers should be able to tell the youngsters how it was when and you were a kid. Make them jealous since things have changed so much.

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Standing Wolf
May 13, 2003, 11:59 PM
I grew up in a small town in Michigan with a Sears, a Montgomery Ward store, and three hardware stores. All five had firearms and ammunition. Kids weren't supposed to handle them, but if you went in on a slow afternoon in July, the guy behind the counter used to let us handle the guns.

About a week after John Kennedy was shot, a friend brought his rifle to school. It was identical to the one Oswald had used. The principal stopped him at the front doors to make sure it was unloaded and no harm was intended. He drew a bead on the eagle atop the flag pole, then suggested to my friend he keep the gun in his locker until history class. It was quite the show and tell topic for about ten minutes.

I doubt there was a boy in my grade school, junior high school, or high school who didn't carry a pocket knife, and I knew boys in high school who brought in guns to work on during shop classes.

There were lots of mysterious absences during deer season—teachers and students alike.

Mike Irwin
May 14, 2003, 12:49 AM
"Everyone, even kids, that could afford a firearm could get one, no questions asked."

Even slaves?

May 14, 2003, 01:35 AM
As far as I know if the person selling the weapon was willing to sell it to the slave he could get one. Legally speaking anyone could buy one. Of course the opportunity probably never presented itself. What with them being chained up, not paid and all that.

May 14, 2003, 09:02 AM
And I'm not really that old, so the period I'm talking about is the 70's and 80's.

Just about every Kmart, Sears, and sports shop had a rack of long guns, and a case of pistols.

Sure, they'd check Id's, only to make sure you where old enough to buy the item in question (16 for long guns, 18 for handguns)

Perversely, you had to be 21 to buy handgun ammo, and there was a situation in a nearby town where one of the police officers was 19, and had to get his mom to buy his practice ammo.

Just about every other house had a small armory, generally kept in glass showcases, or on open wall racks, for the most part with trigger locks, which seemed to make sense to a lot of folks. The exceptions to the trigger locks were of course, the "house guns" which were secreted about the domicile in nearly ready to use fashion.

Gunfire in the woods was a common, year round thing, and generally indicated plinking or hunting rather than gang warfare, and it wasn't all that uncommon to see folks walking down the street with a rifle slung over their shoulder. Handguns weren't as popular, but you'd still see folks from time to time with a belt rig under their jackets.

Gun racks were also fairly common, until MA passed a zero tolerance automatically goto jail for a year if caught with a gun law. People who lived in border towns like mine frequently would wander over the MA border for shopping, or what have you. For a short while, till people got sick of it, they'd pull over at the border and toss their guns into trunks. Eventually, that became tiresome, and news of some poor CT schmuck sitting in a MA jail for a year for forgetting to hide his arms changed peoples minds. Some hauled their guns out of their cars and into their houses, and others found (or made!) hidden spaces in their vehicles.

The last time I went to my hometown, I was initially shocked*, and then delighted to see a father son pair walking out of the woods behind the school, with .22s slung over their shoulders, and my friend's husband pull his .38 snubbie out, check it, and toss it into the nightstand.

*I was initially shocked because I had lived in NJ for too long.

El Tejon
May 14, 2003, 09:14 AM
Desert, not everyone. Blacks, free or enslaved, in the South, Italians or Jews in NYC, Cowboys in the Old West, Chinese almost anywhere could not own firearms.

As for carrying, after the Civil War in the South, Jim Crow and Son of Ham laws preventing everyone from carrying. Racism involved against immigration in the Northeast and the Klan in the Midwest prevented everyone from carrying.

Ol' Badger
May 14, 2003, 09:22 AM
I agree with you. But you still shouldn't allow Italians to own firearms :evil:

Mike Irwin
May 14, 2003, 12:05 PM
Bingo, El Tejon...

Southern states passed many early laws, either locally or at state level, preventing slaves from owning weapons of just about any type.

For example...

In 1685 in New York ordinances prohibit Blacks or Native Americans from owning firearms.

In 1722 North Carolina passes a law that gives local magistrates the right to search blacks and their possessions for firearms.

In 1723 Virginia passes a law banning free blacks from carrying weapons.

These laws, especially those in the South, remained on the books AFTER the adoption of the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

There's more information here...

After the Civil War the South enacted numerous laws, collectively known as "The Black Codes" that among other things made it either exceedingly difficult or impossible for blacks to own firearms.

In most cases, these "Black Codes" drew directly on the "slave codes" that had been enacted by the states and colonies over the previous 100+ years.

Slaves in every Southern state I know of were forbidden from owning weapons to the point of pain of death.

Think about it. If you're a southern plantation owner, do you really want someone you keep in involuntary servitude owning a firearm?

May 14, 2003, 12:29 PM
Chinese people had to pay a fee and send three sacrificial immigrants to be droptested by the CA DOJ before they could be imported from China.

Dynamite yes; firearms, no.

May 15, 2003, 04:41 PM
Did you guys REALLY invent fire?:D :p :D

May 15, 2003, 04:50 PM
Anyone see Demolition Man (sly Stallone/Wesley snipes) where a single crazed Criminal runs rampant and basically takes over in an overly politically correct and sanitized society where even the police aren't allowed to keep weopons? we arn't there yet, but

May 15, 2003, 06:08 PM
Everyone, even kids, that could afford a firearm could get one, no questions asked. That is, until the 1960s.

The first federal gun restriction was The National Firearm Act of 1934, which required the registration and transfer tax on certain firearms. As a result of the transfer tax and law enforcement approval, Amercans could no longer purchase any firearm they wanted with no questions asked.

May 16, 2003, 07:06 AM
Did you guys REALLY invent fire Nah, that was Gore.

May 16, 2003, 08:14 AM
Murder rate per 100,000

1900 1.2
1901 1.2
1902 1.2
1903 1.1
1904 1.3
1905 2.1
1906 3.9
1907 4.9
1908 4.8
1909 4.2
1910 4.6
1911 5.5
1912 5.4
1913 6.1
1914 6.2
1915 5.9
1916 6.3
1917 6.9
1918 6.5
1919 7.2
1920 6.8
1921 8.1
1922 8.0
1923 7.8
1924 8.1
1925 8.3
1926 8.4
1927 8.4
1928 8.6
1929 8.4
1930 8.8
1931 9.2
1932 9.0
1933 9.7
1934 9.5
1935 8.3
1936 8.0
1937 7.6
1938 6.8
1939 6.4
1940 6.3
1941 6.0
1942 5.9
1943 5.1
1944 5.0
1945 5.7
1946 6.4
1947 6.1
1948 5.9
1949 5.4
1950 5.3
1951 4.9
1952 5.2
1953 4.8
1954 4.8
1955 4.5
1956 4.6
1957 4.5
1958 4.5
1959 4.6
1960 4.7
1961 4.7
1962 4.8
1963 4.9
1964 5.1
1965 5.5
1966 5.9
1967 6.8
1968 7.3
1969 7.7
1970 8.3
1971 9.1
1972 9.4
1973 9.7
1974 10.1
1975 9.9
1976 9.0
1977 9.1
1978 9.2
1979 10.0
1980 10.7
1981 10.3
1982 9.6
1983 8.6
1984 8.4
1985 8.4
1986 9.0
1987 8.7
1988 9.0
1989 9.3
1990 10.0
1991 10.5
1992 10.0
1993 10.1
1994 9.6
1995 8.7
1996 7.9
1997 7.4
1998 6.8
1999 6.2
2000 6.1

Murder rates have always been pretty high here (although you can see a clear rise after the 60's). More people will obviously equal more crime, but looking at the rates per 100,000 gives you a better idea of whats really going on. Rates are fairly low now compared to history.

Now thats just for murder, not other crime. Not sure whats gone on there. I'd look it up but i have to go study for a final.

Edit: BTW, i'm not saying gun control has worked, and that is why rates are lower now. In fact, you could make a good case that the murder rates match almost exactly to the failed War on Drugs, and to a lesser extent major gun control laws. I would suggest the falling rate of crime in the 90's has been caused by concealed carry laws in part. During that time 70% of the nation has enacted some kind of CCW law IIRC.

Don Gwinn
May 16, 2003, 08:48 AM
Not let Italians own guns? That's not funny. I'm proud of my ancestors! I don't want to hear any more anti-Roman bias on this board, do you understand?

Now, if you were to take away the stilettoes and switchblades. . . . .


May 16, 2003, 09:37 AM
clange :
I'm going to have to grab those numbers... where'd you get em'
(for reference and such)

May 16, 2003, 09:53 AM

I've seen them in a better table but couldnt find it in my quick search.

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