The real tragedy of Iraq


PDA






Preacherman
May 14, 2003, 12:36 AM
From the Times, London (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,5944-679716,00.html):

May 14, 2003

Babylon weeps as grave of 10,000 gives up secrets

By Steven Farrell

Our correspondent reports from a burial site where Saddam took revenge after the 1991 uprising


http://images.thetimes.co.uk/TGD/picture/0,,73355,00.jpg


BABYLON has no river beside which to weep any more, but, just a few miles from Nebuchadnezzar’s ancient capital, mourners and seekers of the disappeared are gathering in their hundreds on farm-land that is rapidly delivering up a necropolis of Saddam Hussein’s victims.

In the largest mass grave uncovered so far, Iraqis claim to have found 3,000 bodies of people thought to have been murdered during the Baathist regime’s brutal suppression of the 1991 post-Gulf War uprising.

Yesterday, I counted more than 1,000 piles of desiccated remains, some in plastic bags, scattered in half a dozen clusters around the football-sized field 50 miles south of Baghdad and just north of al-Hillah.

Locals say that they have identified 1,200 victims from identity cards or personal belongings and believe that as many as 10,000 more may still lie in the earth.

Seven days into the dig, the scene resembles a battlefield of the dead, the loose sandy soil carved into trenches, ditches and foxholes by a bulldozer. All around lie piles of remains: pelvic bones, ribs, femurs and skulls — one still wearing its weave-pattern prayercap, another the blindfold affixed by his killers shortly before death.

From many protrude the identity cards, amber necklaces, front-door keys and watches used by relatives to identify their brothers, cousins and sons. A plastic artificial leg sticks out of one pile, two crutches from another.

The bulldozer operator is himself a volunteer, seeking his own relatives. Others are dredging the site with their fingers, moving along a ploughed ditch unearthing piles of remains in a line, akin to reaping a crop of cadavers.

Some remains have been dug up and put back into plastic bags and covered with loose earth for inspection by others yet to arrive. There were no signs of bullet casings and most of the bodies are too decomposed to bear obvious signs of binding, torture or summary execution.

Rafid Ali Husseini, from al-Hillah, said that families learnt of the site from a local farmer who knew that Saddam’s forces had used it as a mass grave but had been unable to tell anyone for more than a decade. “When we started a week ago, we expected to find a small number, but as we dug we found graves of about 100 to 200 people,” Dr Husseini, whose brother and father are missing, said.

“We are finding skulls without bodies, bodies without skulls. It is a miserable and disastrous situation and we want to tell all the world, the United Nations and Arab countries, the US Army and President Bush that these families want the people responsible for these crimes to be brought to justice.”

Over 20 years, Amnesty International, the human rights organisation, has collated information on around 17,000 disappearances in Iraq, but it fears that the final figure could be much higher.

On an exhumed mound beside the most westerly row of desiccated corpses, Ali Abdul Hassan Mekki, 50, sat with a plastic bag between his feet. Thirteen years ago, his brother, Jaffar, disappeared during Saddam’s post-rebellion slaughter. It was, for him, the worst possible outcome — misery without certainty.

“I think this is my brother,” he said. “This is my pullover, which he always borrowed from me to wear, but it is not enough to identify him.

“The problem is that I don’t recognise this wallet and the identity card does not have any writing on it.”

He paused as the sun went down, casting grotesque shadows over the mounds of dust and ashes, while latecomers on the outskirts still scratch away at the topsoil.

“My brother was never involved in any political activity,” he said as an afterthought. “Nor was he in the army.”

The New York-based group Human Rights Watch has criticised coalition forces for failing to protect such sites, saying that uncontrolled digs contaminate evidence for future war crimes tribunals.

But, standing on top of a hill, Major Al Schmidt, part of a US Marines investigation team, sighed when asked how many sites were surfacing. “I can’t remember, I have seen so many in the last two days they are running together,” he said. “We are getting more by the day. But this is the biggest I have seen by a long way in terms of exhumed bodies.

“It’s like a cycle: you turn up to one and people tell you about two more; you go there and they tell you about a couple of others. I haven’t slept for 30 hours.”

Near the centre of the field, Badriya Hassan Ali wandered, trying to find traces of her missing son, Akil Abbas Ali, whose photograph she was holding.

She has been searching for him at different sites for two weeks, to no avail. She will return tomorrow.

If you enjoyed reading about "The real tragedy of Iraq" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Coronach
May 14, 2003, 01:10 AM
On another thread I said that even if you believe that the US Gov't is padding the case against Saddam, there is enough there without spin, gloss, veneer, lies, hyperbole, whatever to damn him as a subhuman.

BTTT.

Mike

Sergeant Bob
May 14, 2003, 06:50 AM
All the people saying he didn't have WMD's (which we know he had at one time, and probably has hidden somewhere now) think he wasn't a danger to anyone else should take note. If he would kill (by some estimates) a million of his own people, what makes them think he wouldn't kill a million of us (or others) if he had the means and opportunity?

SkunkApe
May 14, 2003, 08:42 AM
How many died in the United States civil war?

moa
May 14, 2003, 12:54 PM
How many died in the War Between the States? About 600,000. However the vast majority died in combat or from disease.

They did not die with the hands bound, blindfolded and in some instances with obvious bullet holes in the skull. That is, mass executions. Also, women an children were not usually executed in the USA vs CSA war.

There is a difference.

Ol' Badger
May 14, 2003, 01:11 PM
He didn't look anything like the picture? :evil:

bountyhunter
May 14, 2003, 02:33 PM
The bill for the war in Iraq is only now coming due. Al Quada has sent the message that they are still in business and Bin Laden is still in charge. On the news, they said that the co-ordinated bombings involved at least 30 suicide bombers. I still don't understand how George Bush thinks military action can intimidate people who are totally happy to blow themselves into molecules on the off chance of killing just one of our guys. It's going to be a long and expensive process.

Drjones
May 14, 2003, 02:40 PM
How many died in the United States civil war? I'll hold myself back from saying what I want to until you tell us why you bring that up.

bountyhunter
May 14, 2003, 02:45 PM
"All the people saying he didn't have WMD's (which we know he had at one time, and probably has hidden somewhere now) think he wasn't a danger to anyone else should take note. If he would kill (by some estimates) a million of his own people, what makes them think he wouldn't kill a million of us (or others) if he had the means and opportunity?"

No one with a living brain cell has ever disputed Hussein had chem weapons because he used them back in the 80's. But, as long as sanctions were in place and he was under the UN hammer, he couldn't use them. The big scary was nukes. GWB said he had absolute proof that Iraq had a nuke program which was close to a bomb, and he said it both publicly and repeatedly. The white house spokesperson said "The only proof you people will believe is a mushroom cloud." He used that "imminent threat" of Iraq getting the bomb to justify the war. No such proof has been offered to date, so it stands as pure BS until some kind of proof is "discovered" (or manufactured). The failure to find anything is also the reason that the "spin" was changed to the direction that the war was to "free the Iraqi people", the story now being used by the administration. They are hoping everybody will forget about the "we have proof of nukes" bell they kept ringing. The bottom line is, GWB had a gut feeling that he would be able to find a nuke program when we got there and he bet the farm on it. So far, nothing.

The "killed a million of his own people" number is bogus and actually reflects a stat originally calculated including the war dead from the Iran-Iraq war, blaming all of those deaths on Hussein. Obviously he's a murderer and nobody disputes that, but putting the whole war on his tab is kind of ridiculous. The number of people Hussein personally had killed could be thousands or even tens of thousands, but not millions. And, in that respect, he is a novice compared to some of the despots the US has backed in latin and South America or are currently backing in Africa.

Destructo6
May 14, 2003, 03:21 PM
Obviously he's a murderer and nobody disputes that, but putting the whole war on his tab is kind of ridiculous.
He initiated the Iran-Iraq War, it is on his tab.
He used that "imminent threat" of Iraq getting the bomb to justify the war. No such proof has been offered to date, so it stands as pure BS until some kind of proof is "discovered" (or manufactured).
We have some of his former scientists who worked in the weapons program and there's no disputing that they had a nuclear reactor, bought from the French and destroyed by the Israelis, to further that end.

DonQatU
May 14, 2003, 03:53 PM
He (Saddam) initiated the Iran-Iraq War, it is on his tab.

And we (the US) assisted Saddam in the Iran-Iraq War. So are those Saddam killed in that war also on our tab?

The graves that they are diggin up now are from those who rose up to kick out Saddam in 1991. They were urged to do so by Bush Sr. and then we turned our backs on them and allowed them to be killed.

Don

SkunkApe
May 14, 2003, 04:43 PM
DrJones,

What you've got here is a ("claimed") 3000 bodies that resulted from a (U.S.-encouraged) civil war. No evidence of torture, or executions, or of the gender of the bodies. Just innuendo to that effect.

The point is, if you have civil war, you're going to have bodies.

Moa,

If you think that people "did not die with the hands bound, blindfolded and in some instances with obvious bullet holes in the skull" in the U.S. civil war, do a little research on Andersonville and Libby prisons.

moa
May 14, 2003, 05:51 PM
SkunkApe, I am familar with Andersonville and Libby. Those conditions in those prison camps were not brought about by overarching government policy of massive annililation and terror.

In fact, during the Civil War prisoner exchanges were common until General Grant realized that with the Confederate rebel's manpower shortage being what it was, that the exchanges were more of benefit to the South than to the North.

The Civil War, like any war, had numerous atrocities take place, usually on the spur of the moment.

For example, Quantrill's Confederate paramilitary raiders killed civilians in Lawrence, Kansas. At Fort Pillow, the Confederates killed about 300 black troops they had captured.

Saddams regime was Stalinist and was based on terror and fear. Slaugtering thousands of people of both sexes and all ages, whether they deserved it or not, was standard operating procedure.

Standing Wolf
May 14, 2003, 06:17 PM
Not in your names, right?

All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

SkunkApe
May 14, 2003, 07:11 PM
Moa,

Good response. I'm just finding it increasingly difficult to sort out the truth from the propaganda. It was much easier when the bad guys lied and the U.S. told the truth. I'm also developing a short tolerance for those interpret every news story as further evidence of Hussein's evil/terrorism/weapons of mass destruction, while glossing over every lie told and every wrong committed by the United States government.

You seem to have a good knowledge of the civil war. Can you direct me to any good reading on that subject?


"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

-Hermann Goering

"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect."

Mark Twain

Destructo6
May 14, 2003, 07:54 PM
And we (the US) assisted Saddam in the Iran-Iraq War. So are those Saddam killed in that war also on our tab?

The graves that they are diggin up now are from those who rose up to kick out Saddam in 1991. They were urged to do so by Bush Sr. and then we turned our backs on them and allowed them to be killed.

Don
You fail to make the distinction between seller/supplier and user. Saddam took the tools and he acted, not the US. I hope you can make that distinction.
No evidence of torture, or executions, or of the gender of the bodies. Just innuendo to that effect.
Blindfolded and bound corpses with bullet holes in the craniums are quite a bit more than innuendo: a lot more than you have.

DonQatU
May 14, 2003, 07:59 PM
Saddam took the tools and he acted, not the US. I hope you can make that distinction.

Yes, Saddam, took the tools, the intelligence, and advisors we provided him to make sure Iran didn't defeat him.


Don

SkunkApe
May 14, 2003, 08:37 PM
Destructo6,

From the propaganda, errr, I mean "news article" posted at the top of this thread:

"...the bodies are too decomposed to bear obvious signs of binding, torture or summary execution."

Don't exagerate the "news report". That's the job of the government.

SkunkApe
May 14, 2003, 08:45 PM
I think we have a serious shortage of critical thinking here. Don't they teach this in school these days?

"Iraqis CLAIM to have found 3,000 bodies of people THOUGHT to have been murdered..."

"Locals SAY that they have identified 1,200 victims..."

(Capitilization is mine, I don't know how to make bold text.)

"There were no signs of bullet casings..."

"...the bodies are too decomposed to bear obvious signs of binding, torture or summary execution. "

"uncontrolled digs contaminate evidence for future war crimes tribunals." (And leave the propaganda intact. How convenient.)

Thumper
May 14, 2003, 08:53 PM
Yes, Skunk...it's all BS...:rolleyes:

They probably all died from depleted uranium poisoning courtesy of the horrible Americans.

SkunkApe
May 14, 2003, 08:59 PM
Or maybe they died during the civil war. Wait, no way! No one dies during a war! They just surrender, then Hussein tortures them to death.

Besides, if Hussein didn't torture them to death, then what reason would we have invading for his country? Especially now that it turns out there really weren't any WMDs?

Yeah, you convinced me. I changed my mind.

You can joke about the horrible Americans all you want, but I haven't seen any Iraqis bombing my house yet. I'll let you if know if they do.

Thumper
May 14, 2003, 09:03 PM
Your posts imply that the Hussein regime never engaged in mass murder or torture.

Is that your position?

SkunkApe
May 14, 2003, 09:17 PM
Thumper, my position is simple:

1) The United States government embarked on a propaganda campaign to justify the war in Iraq. The real reason for the war is not clear to me. I see several possibilities, some of which, if communicated honestly, would have been just causes in my way of thinking. The reasons publically advanced by the U.S. government that I think are, at best, minor considerations, and at worst, outright lies, are:

a) Hussein aids terrorists.
b) We need to liberate the Iraqi people
c) Hussein is a bad man that just needs killin' (the evil dictator argument)

2) The obvious and verifiable lies told by the United States government to justify this invasion (and the first gulf war) make me very suspicious of everything I read that is anti-Iraq. I don't like being played for a fool.

If I was guessing, I'd say that Hussein did, in fact commit mass murder and torture. As I've said before, its very hard for me to be sure these days. The U.S. propaganda machine is a powerful weapon.

Like boxing propmoter Bob Arum said when caught in an obvious contradiction:

"Yesterday I was lying. Today I'm telling the truth."

I didn't trust we he said, and I don't trust what our government says.

Thumper
May 14, 2003, 09:29 PM
I didn't trust we he said, and I don't trust what our government says.

There's a difference between "not trusting" and automatically dismissing something as a lie.

In an earlier day ('91), I was involved in the documentation of the debriefing of Iraqi EPWs. These guys had absolutely nothing to gain by lying to us. Their firsthand accounts, most cross-documented between multiple witnesses, were pretty horrifying.

Torture was a matter of course in Hussein's Iraq, as was mass murder and rape. As ovewrwhelming evidence shows, we did the right thing in ousting him.

Your out-of-hand condemnation of the U.S is amusing, but entirely misguided.

SkunkApe
May 14, 2003, 10:51 PM
Thumper,

Thanks for the semi-first-hand account.

Its a sad state of affairs when I can trust an anonymous person from the internet more than I can trust my own government.

Destructo6
May 15, 2003, 01:39 AM
Human Rights Watch:
The suspected site probably dates back to the crackdown following a Shi’a uprising in March 1999. Researchers for Human Rights Watch interviewed Settar Khalaf, a cattle herder living near the site who recounted that in spring of 1999, he saw a bulldozer dig three trenches in a remote area where he regularly takes his herd. The following morning he saw several buses and six Ba’ath party cars arrive on the site. Hiding some three hundred fifty meters from the vehicles, Khalaf saw men in military attire exiting from the cars and removing blindfolded and handcuffed prisoners from the buses. According to his estimates, 80-100 persons might have been in the buses. The prisoners were led in a line to the trenches, where they were placed one by one. Seconds later, the men in uniform began shooting at the prisoners with machine guns and pistols for several minutes. Then a bulldozer covered up the trenches.
http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/05/iraq051103.htm
The Tehran Times:
Rafed Husseini, a doctor leading the group of local men doing the digging, said a total of 3,000 bodies had either been retrieved or located in the past nine days. About half remain unidentified while the rest have been identified mainly through documents found on the bodies, Husseini said.

He said local farmers who had witnessed some of the killings by Saddam's forces had alerted them of the mass graves. "They saw the crimes taking place but did not dare talk about them at the time," Husseini said.
http://www.tehrantimes.com/Description.asp?Da=5/15/03&Cat=4&Num=006


Yeah, it's all propaganda. You're right you know, it must have been GW Bush that killed those people so he could pin it on Saddam.

You're irrefutable evidence has been refuted, repeatedly.

buzz_knox
May 15, 2003, 09:01 AM
Actually, in one of the wareshouses filled with the remains of thousands, there were records documenting who was there, and how they had been killed. They had all been executed. Or maybe the left-wing parasites think that "shot in head" is actually referring to a medical treatment.

Then again, there are people who believe that the showers at Dachau were a health measure. After all, don't want the Juden to get lice, right? The only proof of what happened was the survivors and the stories of American GIs who had every reason to lie, right?

Felonious Monk
May 15, 2003, 09:59 AM
What Standing Wolf said earlier bears repeating:

"Not in your names-- right?

All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." :barf:

moa
May 16, 2003, 12:28 PM
SkunkApe, I do not advertise myself as an expert on the Civil War. Just over the years I have read quite of bit of all kinds of military history.

Off-hand, one book that comes to mind that I found quite interesting is "Landscape Turned Red" about the bloodiest single day battle of the Civil War at Antietam creek at Sharpsburg MD in Sept. 1862.

If you have not seen it yet, Ken Burns' video history of the Civil War is quite interesting. I have seen it at Blockbusters. And every Saturday the Washington Times usually has at least one or more articles about the Civil War.

Any book about the Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest should be a good read because the man was amazing. A total over-achiever. The son of blacksmith and only with a third grade education, Forrest became one of the most successful generals of the Civil War. I think he personally killed 29 Yankees in combat, IIRC.

Yankee General William T. Sherman once said if it takes the lives of 10,000 Union troops and all the money in the Federal Treasury it would be worth it to get rid of Forrest.

Regarding being skeptical of government, it is a very healthy habit. A trust government less than I trust the news media, which is not much. However, reports are coming out right and left of mass graves all over Iraq. And, in these graves many of the victims are bound, blindfolded and many obviously shot to death. There where three major finds of mass graves just this week.

It is doubtful that any of these people died a normal death because Muslims are very scrupulous about burying their dead respectfully. Also, it appears these mass graves are not being excavated by trained forsenic experts. So, some of these reports may be tinged with inaccuracy. Shooting is not the only way to kill people. All you need is the bulldozer as another option.

Art Eatman
May 16, 2003, 12:59 PM
I don't care which side of all this arguing anybody prefers. I'm totally fed up with the petty bickering and sniping that's going on. Hence, the various edits and deletions.

SOME folks can't seem to resist acting like grade-school girls at recess, having a desperate need to make these needling little remarks.

There are times when deleting nonsense is as refreshing as a trip to the dumpster: The house smells better.

:D, Art

mercedesrules
May 16, 2003, 01:45 PM
I don't accept that it is the job (or right) of the united states government to (use my money to) oust regimes of sovereign nations - no matter how they govern. How did those here that accept these invasions come to believe in their legitimacy?

If the government continues on this path, it has its work cut out for it; there are about 40 other nations similar to Iraq.

MR

Malone LaVeigh
May 16, 2003, 01:50 PM
I believe it was after signing the Declaration of Independence that Benjamin Franklin said, "Now we must hang together or we will surely hang apart."

Would George III have been a tyrant to have strung up the rebelling colonist? Of course. But no one who joined the rebellion had any doubts about the outcome if they failed. The price of failure in revolution has always been severe. Too bad the allies of the Iraqi rebels didn't "hang" with them. I guess we weren't as trustworthy to those we encouraged in rebellion as the French were to us.

"Not in your names-- right?

All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

I couldn't have put it better. My conscience is clear.

DonQatU
May 16, 2003, 10:11 PM
Human Rights Watch:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The suspected site probably dates back to the crackdown following a Shi’a uprising in March 1999. Researchers for Human Rights Watch interviewed Settar Khalaf, a cattle herder living near the site who recounted that in spring of 1999, he saw a bulldozer dig three trenches in a remote area where he regularly takes his herd.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The failed uprising that claimed the MOST Shi'a victims, was the one that took place in MARCH 1991! AFTER the Shi'a were encouraged to overthrow Saddam by George Bush Sr. after Gulf War I.......... and then abandoned. We knew they were taking place at that time ..........and did nothing! And Saddam even had WMDs at that time!

Don

0007
May 17, 2003, 08:57 AM
If y'all want to know what happened, you should come over here and listen to the Sunni moslems talk about the Shi'ite moslems. I thought I was back in the pre-integration South of the late forties and early fifties - I grew up there. The Sunni moslem sect supported Saddam's use of the Shiite sect as a convienent whipping boy. If the shoe had been on the other foot those would be Sunni grave-yards being dug up. I had a local friend tell me that he would rather live with a Christian or Jew then a Shi'ite. This fight has been going on since the Prophet(PBUH) died. One side wanted the son of the Prophet to become the head of the faithful and the other side wanted the Caliph (who was Mohammed's(sp) uncle, I think) to take over. They have been fighting ever since. 'nuff said. Who wants to get into Religious HIstory 201 on Saturday?

DonQatU
May 20, 2003, 10:30 PM
This says it all!

http://www.danzigercartoons.com/cmp/2003/danziger1651.html

Don

Destructo6
May 20, 2003, 11:40 PM
This fight has been going on since the Prophet(PBUH) died. One side wanted the son of the Prophet to become the head of the faithful and the other side wanted the Caliph (who was Mohammed's(sp) uncle, I think) to take over. They have been fighting ever since. 'nuff said. Who wants to get into Religious HIstory 201 on Saturday?
The split is, more or less, over who is qualified to have become the first Caliph.

If you ask Sunnis, the answer should be along the lines that any decent member of the Quraysh tribe, Mohammad's uber-tribe, can be elected/appointed to the post. Abu'l-Hasan al-Mawardi has a 20+ page dissertation on exactly how this is supposed to work.

Shi'ites, on the other hand, are convinced that succession should be limited to Mohammad's more immediate Hashemite clan and more specifically, the male line of Ali and Mohammad's daughter Aisha (ie their sons Hassan and Husayn). Qadi Nu'man has a similarly long, often rambling, dissertation on the why.

The way it really went down was
1) Abu Bakr
2) Umar
3) Uthman
4) Ali
Tellingly, only Abu Bakr died of natural causes. Abu Bakr became the first Caliph, probably because Mohammad designated him as the prayer leader during Mohammad's last few weeks, which seemed to indicate that he should succeed Mohammad as the leader of the faithful.

"encourage" != "back"

DonQatU
May 21, 2003, 12:10 AM
Oh, brother! The divisions among the people in Iraq have been KNOWN for quite some time!

Now you're seeing it happen! Are you NOW surprised??!!

If so....... you must be a neo-con!

Don

DonQatU
May 21, 2003, 12:17 AM
In an earlier day ('91), I was involved in the documentation of the debriefing of Iraqi EPWs.

Oh, were YOU an interrogator, Thumper?!!

Don

Thumper
May 21, 2003, 12:39 AM
Yeah, Don...we were so brutal...

It was so bad, at one point we had Tetris competitions with the EPWs...I'm so ashamed.

Ended up giving an Iraqi my Gameboy...

Oh...the humanity! :rolleyes:

.

DonQatU
May 21, 2003, 12:50 AM
Thumper, I'm not questioning your kindness to POWs. I'm just questioning your truthfulness and accuracy.

Don

Thumper
May 21, 2003, 12:52 AM
In what way, Don?

What exactly are you questioning?

DonQatU
May 21, 2003, 12:54 AM
What was your FUD.....Bud?

Don

Thumper
May 21, 2003, 12:58 AM
713th M.I. Battalion
701st Mi. Bde.

Anything else...bud?

DonQatU
May 21, 2003, 01:16 AM
When they weren't sucking your knees they were telling you incredible stories! And YOU BELIEVED THEM! ;-)

Don

Thumper
May 21, 2003, 01:27 AM
Don...believe it or not, "telling 'em what they want to hear" is a well known pitfall of intelligence work.

I know you think you're blessed with some sort of remarkable insight, but that concept's been around since the Romans.

It ain't nothin' new, and there are plenty of successfull ways to address it.

Anyway, believe what you want. We're, by and large, usually the guys on the white horses.

If you want to continually cast the U.S. as the evil empire, knock yourself out.

DonQatU
May 21, 2003, 01:39 AM
If you want to continually cast the U.S. as the evil empire, knock yourself out.

No...... I'm talking about the US taking the WRONG course!

As an interrogator, do YOU think the US is "on course"?

Don

Thumper
May 21, 2003, 01:42 AM
Interrogator, inshmerigator...

You should see my scalpel.

Stop watching so many movies.

As far as the right/wrong course, what would YOUR course be in a time of war? Appeasement?

Or do you maintain that we're not in a war?

DonQatU
May 21, 2003, 01:53 AM
Or do you maintain that we're not in a war?

Did we declare war? Against whom?

Don

Thumper
May 21, 2003, 02:07 AM
Yes..a state of war...lower case...didja notice?

Per Mr. Webster:

war 1 a : a state of actual armed hostilities regardless of a formal declaration of war

Yes...we are at war. The fact that you fail to notice this makes you an unusually ripe candidate for Darwin.

Lemme drop you a tiny hint...when well armed and equipped zealots are actively trying to kill you, you are at war.

Does that help?

DonQatU
May 21, 2003, 02:14 AM
And who is the current "BOGEYMAN"......Thumper?

Don

Thumper
May 21, 2003, 02:20 AM
It's been my experience, Don, that those that swear that their sole purpose in life is to end my existence, it would be a good thing to believe them.

Or maybe you believe that 9/11 was staged.

Perhaps you regard armed camps of men training to kill Americans as "not really a big deal."

Do you honestly believe that there aren't well funded zealots actively planning to kill Americans on a mass scale? Please don't skirt that question. Answer it. One more time:

Do you honestly believe that there aren't well funded zealots actively planning to kill Americans on a mass scale?

DonQatU
May 21, 2003, 02:26 AM
Or maybe you believe that 9/11 was staged.

So you think the Iraqis were behind 9/11 attack? Got your tin foil on?

Don

Thumper
May 21, 2003, 02:28 AM
How did I know you would avoid my question.

One more time:

Do you honestly believe that there aren't well funded zealots actively planning to kill Americans on a mass scale?

DonQatU
May 21, 2003, 02:35 AM
Do you honestly believe that there aren't well funded zealots actively planning to kill Americans on a mass scale?

And YOU'RE the one talking about TIN FOIL?

OK, tell me, Thumper! Who's the current Bogeyman?

Don

Thumper
May 21, 2003, 02:43 AM
And YOU'RE the one talking about TIN FOIL?

Actually, Don...you're the one who mentioned tinfoil. :neener:

Drink one for me; I'm stuck at work right now.

BTW...catch the news last week? Something about some bombings. It was probably a boiler explosion.
:rolleyes:

You believe that that concept is one for the tinfoil hat crowd, right?

Anyway...I want you to admit it:

Your position is that there is no one on the planet actively planning to kill Americans on a mass scale, correct?

Yes or no?

atek3
May 21, 2003, 02:51 AM
let me get this straight. The correct response to anti-american terror is to: Attack a regime which was despised by anti-american terrorists thus hampering anti-american terrorism and striking a blow against al qaeda?

forgive me if I'm confused,
atek3

DonQatU
May 21, 2003, 02:54 AM
You believe that that concept is one for the tinfoil hat crowd, right?

Tell us, Thumper! Who's the current bogeyman?

Don

Thumper
May 21, 2003, 02:55 AM
Where'd they find Abu Abbas again?

Remember "those who harbor terrorists."

Somewhere, 'ol Leo Klinghoffer is smiling.

DonQatU
May 21, 2003, 03:01 AM
let me get this straight. The correct response to anti-american terror is to: Attack a regime which was despised by anti-american terrorists thus hampering anti-american terrorism and striking a blow against al qaeda?

Iraq WAS secular. Watch it now!

Don

Thumper
May 21, 2003, 03:02 AM
Oh...and Ansar Al-Islam was a figment of our collective imaginations?

Thumper
May 21, 2003, 03:07 AM
Hey, Don...Islamic fundamentalists claimed responsibility for the deaths of the following Americans, but don't let their deaths get in the way of your disbelief in BOGEYMEN:



Obadiah Y. Abdullah
of Colorado
1 of 8 Americans killed in bombing at Riyadh
May 12, 2003 - Saudi Arabia


Jeff Bentley, 35
of Hurst, TX
1 of 8 Americans killed in bombing at Riyadh
May 12, 2003 - Saudi Arabia
Clifford J. Lawson, 45
of Snellville, Ga
1 of 8 Americans killed in bombing at Riyadh
May 12, 2003 - Saudi Arabia

34 Killed (8 Americans)
Bombs at 3 American/Western residences
Osama bin Laden - Al-Qaeda
May 12, 2003 - Saudi Arabia
Civilian Employee
of Hunt Oil
Shot and killed
March 18, 2003 - Yemen

Abigail Litle, 14
of Lebanon, NH (dual US-Israeli citizen)
One of 17 Killed in a bus explosion
Palestinian suicide-bomber
March 5, 2003 - Haifa, Israel
William Hyde, 58
Southern Baptist missionary from Iowa
One of 19 killed in bomb explosion at airport
Moro Islamic Liberation Front responsible
March 4, 2003 - Phillipines

Michael Rene Pouliot, 46
A contractor from San Diego, CA
Ambushed and riddled with bullets at stoplight
January 21, 2003 - Kuwait
William Koehn, 60
Hospital Administrator from Arlington, TX
Shot and killed at a Baptist mission hospital
December 30, 2002 - Yemen

Kathleen Gariety, 53
Purchasing agent from Wauwatosa, Wisconsin
Shot and killed at a Baptist mission hospital
December 30, 2002 - Yemen
Martha Myers, 57
A physician from Montgomery, AL
Shot and killed at a Baptist mission hospital
December 30, 2002 - Yemen

Janis Ruth Coulter, 36
of Maine
Killed by bomb in Hebrew Univ cafeteria
July 30, 2002 - Jerusalem
Marla Bennet, 24
of San Diego, CA
Killed by bomb in Hebrew Univ cafeteria
July 30, 2002 - Jerusalem

David Gritz, 24
of Peru, MA
Killed by bomb in Hebrew Univ cafeteria
July 30, 2002 - Jerusalem
Benjamin Blutstein, 25
of Susquehanna Township, PA
Killed by bomb in Hebrew Univ cafeteria
July 30, 2002 - Jerusalem

Dina Carter, 37
of NC
Killed by bomb in Hebrew Univ cafeteria
July 30, 2002 - Jerusalem
Two Israeli's Shot to Death
on American soil at Los Angeles Airport
Eygptian immigrant attack at El Al airlines
July 5, 2002 - Los Angles, CA

Gila Sara Kessler, 19
from New York
Killed by bomb at bus stop
June 19, 2002, - Jerusalem
Moshe Gottlieb, 70
of Los Angeles, CA
Killed in bus bombing
June 18, 2002 - Jerusalem

Hannah Rogen, 90
Killed by bomb while at Passover Seder
March 27, 2002 - Israel
Moran Amit, 25
Stabbed to death
February 25, 2002 - Jerusalem.

Rachel Thaler, 16
of Baltimore, MD
Killed by bomb
February 16, 2002 - Karnei Shomron
Lior Thaler, 14
of Baltimore, MD
Killed by bomb
February 16, 2002 - Karnei Shomron

Chani Friedman
of New York
Killed by bomb
February 16, 2002 - Karnei Shomron
Keren Shatsky, 14
of Brooklyn, NY
Killed by bomb
February 16, 2002 - Karnei Shomron

Lee Akunis
Shot and Killed
February 15, 2002 - Ramallah, West Bank.
Daniel Pearl, 38,
Wall Street Journalist
Kidnapped and brutally murdered.
January 31, 2002 - Pakistan

Aaron Elis, 32
of Chicago, IL
Shot and Killed
January 18, 2002 - Israel
Avraham Boaz, 71
of New York
Kidnapped and murdered.
January 15, 2002 - Bethlehem, West Bank

September 11, 2001
Over 3,000 Killed
Hijacked airplanes flown into buildings
New York, Washington DC, Pennsylvania
15 Killed (2 Americans)
Hamas massive suicide bombing of a pizzeria
August 9, 2001 - Jerusalem

Sarah Blaustein
Shot and Killed in drive-by shooting
May 29, 2001 - West Bank
Samuel Berg
Shot and Killed in drive-by shooting
May 29, 2001 - West Bank

Kobi Mandell, 13
of Silver Spring, MD
Stoned to death in a cave
May 9, 2001 - Tekoa, West Bank
Rabbi Binyamin Kahane, 34
of Brooklyn, NY
Shot and Killed in drive-by shooting
December 31, 2000 - Ofra, Israel

Talia Hertzlich Kahane
of Brooklyn, NY
Shot and Killed in drive-by shooting
December 31, 2000 - Ofra, Israel
Eish Kodesh Gilmor, 25
Killed by PLO
October 30, 2000 - Jerusalem

USS Cole
17 Navymen
Killed by explosive-laden suicide boat
October 12, 2000 - Aden Harbor, Yemen
Rabbi Hillel Lieberman
from Brooklyn, NY
Riddled with bullets
October 8, 2000 - Nablus, West Bank

No skin off your neck, right?

DonQatU
May 21, 2003, 03:12 AM
The United States dropped crimininal charges against Abu Abbas.

DonQatU
May 21, 2003, 03:14 AM
Where is that Ansar Al-Islam POISON FACTORY? A figment of our collective imaginations? :D

Don

Thumper
May 21, 2003, 03:17 AM
Little disingenuous there, Don.

Yes, charges were dropped, way back when I was in high school...so the Italians could convict him in absentia.

He will spend the rest of his miserable life in jail. Why? 'Cause we went and got him.

In Baghdad.

DonQatU
May 21, 2003, 03:20 AM
Yes, charges were dropped, way back when I was in high school...so the Italians could convict him in absentia.

Oh, you know what's going to take place in the Italian court?

:D

Don

PS - Where is that Ansar Al-Islam POISON FACTORY? A figment of our collective imaginations?

Thumper
May 21, 2003, 03:23 AM
So you think that Helkard Ahmed (Ansar al-Islam leader) was just playing around when he said the jihad against America would continue and that their recent defeat would be followed by "victories and domination?"

He was just joking, right?

Thumper
May 21, 2003, 03:32 AM
Oh, you know what's going to take place in the Italian court?

I know what took place in absentia in 1986...he was convicted and sentenced to life in prison.

That was before he moved the PLF to it's new headquarters...in Baghdad, where, according to you, there were no terrorists.

Well, there aren't any now...

:D

DonQatU
May 21, 2003, 03:42 AM
Helkard Ahmed (Ansar al-Islam leader)

Was he also in charge of the Ansar al-Islam "poison factory" that didn't exist? :D

Don

DonQatU
May 21, 2003, 03:50 AM
"That was before he moved the PLF to it's new headquarters...in Baghdad."

Who are the PLF? Big threat to the USA?!! :D

Don

Thumper
May 21, 2003, 03:55 AM
Who are the PLF?

Do a search on Leon Klinghoffer, oh Well-Informed One.

:rolleyes:

Thumper
May 21, 2003, 03:58 AM
This is getting old, and your points have the clarity of peanut butter...I'm out of this one.

If you enjoyed reading about "The real tragedy of Iraq" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!