stl county MO. Beware gun owners


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stlgunfan
September 30, 2006, 06:41 PM
There has been talk on here about Stl county, and a few other places within the state of Missouri where the Chief, Sheirff is asking for proof of ownership of your firearm.

Well I called one of the St. Louis county substations and asked them this very question. The officer on the otherline was clueless on how the CCW law is and gun laws overall.

I asked him if its true that you have to show proof of ownership of your firearm to LEO. He told me that they require you show proof you own the gun, if you cannot that they will confinscate the gun for "safe keeping" until you can prove ownership and go down to clayton to pick it up. I asked him what about if I dont have a copy of my PTA. He told me I would have to go down to Clayton and get the copies from the records room.

He tells me "Its the law in MO that it has to be registered" I tried telling him its only when you buy a gun IN mo that you fill a permit out. I asked him what happens if you are from another state. "Well you should have some kind proof of ownership."

The guy was clueless, and I just ended the converstation and thanked him for his time.

Its clear in St. Louis, and one other county in Northern MO sheirff also says you should carry your permit, or a copy with you.

I think this is VERY alarming.

Im debating shoudl I carry a copy of my permits in my car, or should I not, and if they want to take my gun for "Safe keeping" then nail them in court on it.

I for one if they ever tried that on me, it would be the last gun they ever confinscate here in MO when I get done rip, tearing them in Court, and higher courts

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stlgunfan
September 30, 2006, 06:51 PM
Also according to Kevin Jaminson one of the most well respected lawyers, in MO, and weapons defense also states this will fall under 42 USC section 1983
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode42/usc_sec_42_00001983----000-.html

http://www.topgunss.com/mocarry/letter.jpg

DKSuddeth
September 30, 2006, 10:16 PM
I imagine it will only take one talking to by the county prosecutor for him to stop that practice.

stlgunfan
September 30, 2006, 10:50 PM
Hopefully.

From what I hear there are several lawsuits piled up against the PD about this matter. What happens if u have a 60 year old 1911? They say they keep the gun at HQ until you can prove ownership. How do u prove it?

This is dept wide there are doing this. Its irnoic this has not made it in the news. Also this appears to fall under federal law which the FBI should be looking into as well. The AG of MO Jay Nixon is a democrap so go figure.:cuss:

State law, as well as the Highway patrol say no proof of ownership, or registration is required in MO. However some counties are trying to use the is permit to purchase and use it as registration. Its also be outed the St. Louis and other areas using the "crime Matrix" database store store gun permits in the database, and gives teh federa agencies access to this info.:cuss:

The ATF has been using this database to get local handgun info:cuss:

beerslurpy
September 30, 2006, 11:28 PM
stlgunfan, that letter made me laugh. I just love seeing government goons get themselves in legal hot water.

stlgunfan
September 30, 2006, 11:54 PM
No, I called the PD on the phone and talked to a officer.

If your talking about the letter I posted above which is a email, that was posted on another gun board a few months back, and is from one of the most well known firearms, and criminal lawyers in MO, at least on the KC side.

How much money could one person win in a case like this?

stlgunfan
October 1, 2006, 01:44 AM
Also I asked them do they give you a receipt saying they took your gun. the officer told me they dont give anything proving you took it, YOU have to go to clayton and prove you own it.

Thats the scary part. If they dont give you proof they took your firearm what happens if the cop decides to keep it for himself, gets lost? its your word against his that he took it. He could say you didnt have a gun on you. In IL years back a cop was busted I recall for stealing motorist firearms and keeping them for himself. He was later charged with felonies and sent to prision.

Baba Louie
October 1, 2006, 07:09 AM
You do, of course, have a list you've made with your firearms serial numbers on them, do you not? Insurance purposes and all. Maybe a digital photo or two?

You could, I suppose, place some form of ID on the inside of a grip panel (which could be discarded I know). You could also have some form of number or name engraved on a hidden spot within.

If someone ever does steal your firearm, how are you going to prove that it is yours without some form of proof? Receipt of sale, transfer from parent or spouse, etc should be at the ready for insurance purposes at the very least.

If you don't have a list, make one (or two). If you don't have a receipt or photo's, prepare some Identifying paper trail.

Should a LEO confiscate your firearm, respectfully request a receipt. Should one not be forthcoming, get thee to the closest station house and file a voluntary statement that you were robbed of a deadly weapon... where, when, why, how and by whom.
Have a backup (firearm) at home. Drive on.

DKSuddeth
October 1, 2006, 09:38 AM
Should a LEO confiscate your firearm, respectfully request a receipt. Should one not be forthcoming, get thee to the closest station house and file a voluntary statement that you were robbed of a deadly weapon... where, when, why, how and by whom.

If you find yourself in the position of having to do this, it would probably be wise to choose a LEO authority that has jurisdiction over the officer that took your firearm.

stlgunfan
October 1, 2006, 12:28 PM
Problem is apparently that order has come from the top to take peoples guns who do not have proof. Stl county police cheif is rabid anti gun, ccw.

what he doesnt understand they cannot take guns away like that. That is also a civil rights violation

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode42/usc_sec_42_00001983----000-.html

saltforkgunman
October 1, 2006, 12:42 PM
This confiscation scheme was first brought to the publics attention by a memo that was sent to the Citizens Commitee Right To Keep and Bear Arms.The interdepartment memo From the police chief of one of the southern suburbs of STL.Seize the weapon,send it to the crime lab.The police station and city hall waere deluged by telephone calls.The memo also advised officers to aproach cars with guns drawn and to 'stay safe'.:confused: :banghead: Sounds like they are running with a variation of this.

I may be able to find the old article somewhere.

stlgunfan
October 1, 2006, 01:11 PM
Yea I remember that. I dont venture into North County, dont like the area, unless I have heavy fire power.

I heard he backed down his claims when he took someones gun and they went to the AG officer and the AG told him to give the gun back imediatly or else it was a federal civil rights violation.

In another suburb in around St. Louis city couple muslims were pulled over carrying guns "CCW permits" and were harassed be the local PD, detained for a couple hours also for no reason. They sued, currently I hear they are settling out of court for a pretty good sum. Cha Ching. It was one of john Ross students and he posted about it on here last year.

However not hazelwood, but actual St. Louis County Police themselves have been told by the cheif, higherups to ask for proof the gun is yours, and if you dont have proof on you they are to take the gun and hold the weapon until you can prove its yours.

That is what is currently sparking law suits in stl county. You would think they would stop their unlawfully practices but obviously they wont. All they are going to do is make a few people a little richer in court when its clear they have violated their civil rights. Which could go to a federal court I hear its pretty serious.

Soybomb
October 1, 2006, 03:18 PM
I wonder what they would want done to an Illinois resident carrying a handgun with a Pennsylvania permit who isn't subject to MO's purchase permit system. :evil:

stlgunfan
October 1, 2006, 03:36 PM
I assume that would fall under the federal safe passage act then

Soybomb
October 1, 2006, 03:39 PM
Not at all, that would require the gun to be unloaded and in the trunk or a locked case not chambered and on my hip.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000926---A000-.html

stlgunfan
October 1, 2006, 04:02 PM
Regardless MO is supposed to honor permits from ANY state. If they do detain you because of some clueless cop you can SUE. Just like the gun in NJ who was traveling air and was busted for hollow points and wrongfully arrested and detained despite federal laws. Last I heard the guy has the 800lb gorilla "NRA" filing a 3 million dollar law suit aainst those communist.

paddling_man
October 9, 2006, 03:16 PM
If anyone develops gets a clear answer regarding establishing this proof, to the satisfaction of the StLPD, then I would be interested in hearing it.

My last three handguns were after I was a MO resident so I suppose I could make a copy of the PTAs and keep them in the glove compartment but it seems unreasonable to have to carry a copy.

My most principle concern is having some 30-40 year old (baby Browning) handguns that were "hand-me-downs" from my father. What would be necessary to have to establish proof enough to keep my legal, CCW handgun on person??

Steve499
October 9, 2006, 03:43 PM
I have never got anything other than a receipt for the money I paid for the permit and that hasn't any information about the pistol on it.

The police can only deprive you of your property when it is outright contraband or they seize it for evidence. If I worked for the joker who is trying to make some kind of statement by giving his Department a rule like this, I'd ignore it. It's going to be my name at the top of the civil suit papers. Sure, his might be there too but that wouldn't console me a bit. Then, I'd probably be keeping my eyes open for a different department.

I carry all the time, I don't have any proof the pistol is mine and I go to St Louis occasionally. Maybe one of the lawsuits will be mine.

Steve

BigO01
October 9, 2006, 04:02 PM
Well folks first they argued that the whole permit process was going to COST StL County money because the law was poorly worded and refused to issue them until recently when the legislature cleared it up . Now they come up with this scheme to actually get into the pockets of tax payers via settlements on lawsuits due to their illegal actions .

No doubt after wasting Millions of tax dollars they will approach the legislature to try and reverse and eliminate the CCW law due to "Its" costs to the community , of course they wont bring up the fact that it is their illegal actions and not the CCW law or holders that are robbing the kitty . That will all get swept under the rug and forgotten of course .

It's kind of like trying to convince someone to get rid of a loving pet because they don't like it , since they can't get the pet to commit an act to justify it they introduce fleas onto the animal and them blame the pet for the fleas , if you want to get rid of the fleas just dump the pet , not kill the fleas it all works out in their minds somehow .

Guntalk
October 9, 2006, 06:03 PM
Taking a valuable firearm without the owner's permission is a felony.

A person doing this while armed could be described to be an armed felon.

What is the law about preventing/stopping an armed felon?

Have fun with that one.

<grin>

(Stirring up things is my job.)

Deanimator
October 10, 2006, 10:41 AM
Taking a valuable firearm without the owner's permission is a felony.

If you REALLY want to cause trouble, send a well footnoted letter to the BATFE, suggesting that the guns are possibly either being taken by individual cops or sold without recourse to a 4473...

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