[Steve499]

A veteran of world war II who I've known for several years recently passed away. His estate sale is coming up and, among other items, is listed a Japanese sword. I know the sword came back with him so there's no doubt about it's authenticity, but what should I know about before the auctioneer gets started on it?

Steve

[hso]

There's a huge range of japanese swords that were brought back by WWII vets. They range from inexpensive NCO swords that were mass produced in the latter half of WWII to the exquisite Nohinto Katanas that were family treasures that were sometimes taken from officers or sold during the occupation.

A detailed description and pictures is needed to even begin to give any advice.

Is the handle cast aluminum screwed on to the tang of the blade like this?
http://www.quanonline.com/military/military_reference/japanese/sword_photos/nco_2_back.jpg

Or does it look more like this with cord wrapping over sting ray skin?
http://www.quanonline.com/military/military_reference/japanese/photos/samurai0003.jpg

[Steve499]

I'm afraid I won't know more than I've posted until the day of the sale. Unless I can work out a viewing before the sale with the auctioneer, (unlikely), I'll just have to go with whatever I can learn between now and then.

Steve

[22-rimfire]

Check out the steel on the day of the auction. Look under the handle for Japanese markings. Generally longer the blade the more valuable it is. But, it would impossible to say much about it without substantial knowledge and research. Follow your instincts on it. Some of the old family blades very old and are worth fortunes. Common blades used to sell for the $300-$500 range. Now it is hard to find one for under a $1000.

[hso]

There's a huge amount of information that has to be learned before the auction if you don't know what the sword is or looks like. Do everything in your power to get a good look at the sword. If it isn't broken at the tip or hasn't been "sharpened" or used to whack trees (you'd be amazed how often the "grandkids" were allowed to play with priceless nohinto) get a look under the grip to see if there are any markings. Photograph them if there are.

Start here - http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm

[Steve499]

Thanks, hso. I am embarrassed to admit that, years ago, I did that very thing, whacking weeds behind the barn with a Japanese sword a friend's father brought back from the war. As far as I can remember, the friend and I did no damage to it but I still cringe at the memory. That childhood recollection is largely what is motivating me now. I recall how impressed I was, even then, at the workmanship of that sword. I want to make up for that by preserving this one if possible.

A member here kindly contacted me and gave me lots of invaluable help. Thanks Matt! I have been studying the Japanese Sword Index. I don't have a lot of time but I'm way ahead of where I was yesterday!

I appreciate all the input.

Steve

[DogBonz]

If it is a half way well made sword, the markings on the blade will often reveal who made the sword, whom it was made for, when it was made, and where. My friend’s father has one and a Japanese friend of his was able to translate it for him. He was able to find out the sword smith’s name, the last name of the man it was made for, as well as the region and year that it was made.

[Otherguy Overby]

A friend of a friend (I know...) usta carry at least 25K with him when looking at a sword.

One thing already mentioned is pre-war Japanese were mostly small and short. IOW, long swords were not commonly made and therefor much more valuable if quality made.

[tellner]

I don't know much about Japanese swords, but that looks a lot like a non-com's sword, probably mass produced. Do some research. Find someone knowledgeable.

[hso]

Todd, the only picture provided in the thread is a NCO sword I posted for him since he didn't know.

[Tom Bri]

I spent some time in Japan and got to several museums, including a special sword exhibition that brought together a lot of unique privately owned blades. Some were truely unique, including one that was literally 3 yards long, and was claimed to have been used from horseback in war. Don't know about that, but what really interested me was the great variety of blade types and styles. The thing we think of as the classic katana was hardly the only sword used.

Some were long and very slim, or long and heavy/broad, or short and slim, short and heavy, curving, straight, or with different styles of points. Some looked very much like our civil war era cavalry sabers.

[Steve499]

Well I brought it home with me. It is a machine produced Gunto sword, I believe, in a military metal scabbard. I have pictures of the writing on the tang and of the blade tip which I was able to get before my camera quit. I'll post pictures of the whole thing when I get the camera going again.There is no visible hamon line and the blade has some minor surface discoloration with a small pit or two. Overall I think it is pretty much a run of the mill factory production with no special value but it's unquestionably of Japanese origin from WWII. (I also bought his Arisaka 6.5 carbine and a bayonet with all the blue on the blade still pristine)

I've been trying to decipher the inscription with very little luck.

Steve

[Steve499]

I have more pictures. In examining this blade I noticed a color variation on the back of the blade about 1.5 inches from the tip. The same variation is visible on the side of the blade about one inch back of the tip. The line between the two colors is perfectly straight and makes it look like you are seeing light reflecting from a change in planes, but there isn't any angular variation in planes there at all. It looks like a different kind of metal is responsible for the color change.

In searching the net for information about this sword, I have tentatively guessed that the first two characters (nearest the tang hole) on the left side are Koa Isshun and/or Mantetsu, not sure how they go together. In reading about those, I found the blades were in fact machine made but were made by a sandwiching process where two different kinds of metal were used, the core being different than the outside. What I am seeing on my blade looks like that's what is going on. My understanding, (based on my vast two weeks of experience) is that the Koa Isshun Mantetsu blades were sort of between the fully traditionally made blades and the fully machine made blades.

There is a pit in the blade which appears to be a manufacturing flaw rather than a rusted pit, unless the blade had been badly rusted at one time and re-polished, which would have had to happen before the veteran got it.

The family said they found this sword under his mattress. That tells me it was very valuable to him and I feel lucky to be able to treasure it also.

I welcome any comments, conjectures or enlightenment anyone can toss my way.

Steve

[mwpslp]

Hi Steve,

Glad the web site was some help. Isshin is a province in Japan and Tetsu is the Japanese word for steel. There was a time in the 1600's when it was "fashionable" to have swords made from Nambantetsu or "foreign steel". Try a website www.japaneseswordcollector.com. His name is Louis Skebo and he is in Canada and can provide translation of the Mei or "signature" on the Nakago (tang). He is a friend of mine so if you speak to him you can tell him I said hello. I also noticed in your photo that the Ito (string wrap) is looped over the Menuki (ornaments on the handle). This is a bit unusual from what I have seen on a military sword. You normally see this on more traditional items. Is it looped over the menuki or just coming apart there? It is hard to tell from the photo. From the color of the rust on the nakago (tang) it does not look to be that old and I think you are right in saying that it was made during the WWII era. Let me know what you find.

Matt

[Steve499]

I ran out of room on that last post for pictures so here's some more. I am not very conversant in all the Japanese terms yet. I know there are proper names for all the components but I would have to bounce back and forth from here to another site to get them all right so I'm just going to call them by my own ignorant terms. As I get more experience, I'll do better.:)

The wrap around the handle is worn badly where it passes over the medallions. Those medallions are not located directly opposite of one another but are offset. There is a crack in the material under the wrap. There was a tiny sliver of it which was detached and held on by the wrap. I thought it looked like some sort of plastic rather than the shark skin or ray skin it's supposed to be so I removed it and touched a match to it. It burned rapidly, almost like smokeless powder! It is definately man made material of some kind.

Thanks for the link, I'll get right on it. I'm finding this whole subject very interesting

Steve.

[mwpslp]

They are suppossed to be offset. The rayskin is probably just old and brittle but it appears you have all of the mounts intact. Good luck.

[hso]

Matt,

Isn't it strange to find any markings on the tang of a WWII blade?

[mwpslp]

Not really. Even some machine made blades had a Mei (inscription). It was usually like a type of script rather than the heavily chiseled ones that are typically older, although not all blades have a Mei. Sometimes the Mei can contain the name of the smith, the date, the school, sometimes the name of the person who ordered the blade, a blessing (of sorts), or even a cutting test. Even some of the oldest works were often "unsigned". Also many family hierloom blades were put into military mounts and carried off to war. I bought one such unsigned blade in bad condition WWII mounts but sent the blade off to be polished. Upon completion it was sent to Japan for Shinsa (appraisal) and was attributed and papered to the mainline Kaneyoshi school circe 1532. One of the blades which sold on the website I mentioned earlier belonged to me. The Mei contained the name of the smith and the province he was from, as well as when he had made it (June 1942). Go to that website www.japaneseswordcollector.com and look under the sold gallery. You will find a sword in WWII mounts with a titel Gendai Tomomaru. The smiths name was Furihata Tomomaru. I use to own many of the swords in that sold gallery. Tomomaru, Sukesada, Shodai Masanori, Shimada Sukemune, Koto Tsunahiro, Yasutsugu.

[Steve499]

Matt, I tried to e-mail Louis Skebo but got a failed delivery on it. Perhaps his e-mail has changed from the one given on his website. I would be happy to pay him for the translation service if I can get in contact with him.

I was expecting to find some sort of stamped symbol on the tang under the handle but there was only the chiseled mei, plus some red painted characters which were partially flaked off. I know there are a bazillion variations with few absolutes but I expected a machine made sword to be stamped at the factory as the Japanese Sword Index indicated.

Steve

[mwpslp]

I believe his email is good. I just sent him one last week. In any event his phone number is listed there as well. Maybe give him a call.

[mwpslp]

Hey Steve,

Try his email again. I think you may have typed it wrong. The first letter is an L not an I. That seems to be a common error, just in case.

[Steve499]

You're right, I did. It went this time. I'll keep you posted if I learn anything, Thanks again.

Steve

[Trebor]

Interesting find. Nice puchase. Can I ask how much you paid?

[Steve499]

$850.00

This veteran had no children but was a favorite uncle to several at the sale. None of his property had been distributed among family members prior to the sale as is often the case. All who wanted a particular piece had to bid against those for whom there may have been sentimental value attached to the item. I am confident no one there wanted this sword for any other reason and, but for that, it would have gone for considerably less than it did. I suppose I wanted it for the same reason, although I wasn't related to him. At any rate, I was willing to pay that amount for it and it will never be sold while I'm alive. I really am so new to these swords that I have no practical idea about value. I may have paid more than it's worth or I may have stolen it. It doesn't matter to me either way since it wasn't an investment or speculatory purchase.

Steve

[Hobie]

The red characters look like those for "2" "9" "8" 二九八 although I'm not certain if the character for nine has been altered/smeared. I'm not a Japanese linguist so I won't attempt the engraved/chiseled characters Japanese translation.

Actually, for that condition, the price seems pretty reasonable.

[mwpslp]

This type of red writing was probably added by a serviceman bringing the blade back to the US or from the arsenal in Japan where the blade was made. It should not be confused with the red or sometimes gold writing of the Honami, which were basically the sword appraisers of the fifteen and sixteen hundreds in Japan before the modern day Shinsa teams we have now.

[Steve499]

The mei on the left tang, as far as I can figure out so far, are the Koa Isshun Mantetsu for the first two characters. The third character is the kanji for 10. The fourth and fifth are still hiding from me in all the lists of kanji I've been pouring through. The sixth is, I believe, a poorly chiselled number 6 followed by the last character which is the kanji for month.

So, I'm guessing it was made in June. The spring was thought to be the most auspicious time to make a blade. I wonder if they just marked them ALL April, May or June?

The red paint looks almost like fingernail polish. I doubt if the guy who brought this sword back ever even saw the tang since I had to work pretty hard getting the sword apart. I thought the paint was probably something the manufacturer put there.

Steve

[Steve499]

FWIW, I now think the mei on the left tang says the blade was made in or by Koa Isshun (first kanji), Showa (second kanji) the era which began in 1926, 10 and 5 for the third and fourth, and year for the fifth. The sixth is the kanji for 6 and the last is the kanji for month. So... I'm guessing it was made in June. The year would be 15 added to 1926, or 1941. The two character mei on the right tang should be the name of the maker or factory. Still working on that one.

Steve