How silly would a CX4-storm be for self defense?


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Nitrogen
October 2, 2006, 11:03 AM
I got to shoot a CX4-storm on Saturday. It was a fun little carbine, and it looks really cool. I'd love to pick one up, but in order to do so, I have to convince myself it'd be at least passable for self defense uses.

So how silly am I for even considering this? Am I better off using a 10/22 for self defense?:what:

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eab
October 2, 2006, 11:09 AM
IMHO, I think it would not be the worst choice. Miles better then a 10/22. 9mm is a killer for sure. Same bullet used in the MP5 that all the SWAT teams used before they started switching to the M4.

Take in mind I have never shot one. I have handled them and find them pretty handy and would not mind owning one for sure.

Sry0fcr
October 2, 2006, 11:21 AM
Why wouldn't it? People are going to say that if you're going to get a rifle then get a rifle. Honestly, I don't think you can call self defense shooting at someone 200 yards away...

beerslurpy
October 2, 2006, 11:24 AM
Uh neither? CX4 is basically a pistol with the bulk of a rifle. You'd be better off with either a pistol or a real rifle shooting a real rifle caliber. Ie, an AK or AR in some intermediate caliber. For the cost of a storm, you could get a really good AK or build a decent AR.

Rifles arent just about range. 7.62x39 and 5.56x45 both hit really hard at close range, far harder than any pistol round. If youre using fragmenting/expanding rounds at close range, the tissue damage is orders of magnitude greater. Also, a rifle will go through soft armor, walls and most forms of cover, which makes it more useful inside a house. According to the marines urban combat penetration tests, 7.62x39 goes through concrete, brick and drywall with no problems.

Add in the fact that a rifle is easy to score hits with at ranges where pistols are mariginal at best, and there is no reason to defend your home with anything less.

Euclidean
October 2, 2006, 11:24 AM
Well isn't a 9mm pistol a respectable self defense weapon? How can improving on that be a bad thing?

beerslurpy
October 2, 2006, 11:30 AM
It's a marginal self defense weapon. The only benefit of a 9mm pistol is that it is small enough to conceal or to hang on a belt holster without discomfort.

Doug S
October 2, 2006, 11:31 AM
Handy is the key word. I don't own the Beretta, but I do own a Kel-Tec Sub 2000. I also have a couple of AK's and an SKS. If I were going to grab one of these in the night, I would most likely grab the Kel-Tec. Very handy, and it also shares magazines with my HD G17 and CCW G26. Not a bad combo in my opinion. I don't think owning an AR would change my opinion. Not to mention that many people will tell you that a rifle round such as the AK uses, is too much for inside a home.

Zero_DgZ
October 2, 2006, 11:35 AM
It's got slightly more power than a pistol in the same caliber (longer barrel = marginally higher velocity) and the kicker is that it's much easier to accurately aim.

I wouldn't go wandering around down with one under my trenchcoat, but it'd make a dandy house gun. Also, pistol caliber rounds will punch through fewer obstacles than rifle rounds (though, as proven on the Box O' Truth, will still knock holes in plenty of plain drywall).

browningguy
October 2, 2006, 11:40 AM
I don't think a pistol caliber carbine is a bad idea at all. No experience with the Beretta, but I have a Sub2000 with the Glock magwell. With the lower rail mounted light and 33 round mags it should work pretty well. I also have an AR, with the .50 Beowulf upper it would do a good job but is longer and heavier than the SUB, and I have a SU16, excellent .223 but again longer than the SUB.

SuperNaut
October 2, 2006, 11:45 AM
I bought mine for potential Katrina-esque scenarios with the following rationale:

1. Shares the same ammo as the majority of my handguns.
2. Recoil is minimal, so my wife isn't afraid of it.
3. Any increase in fps is okay with me.
4. It is small and light so it is easy to store, carry, stash, etc.
5. It is accurate enough for small game if the need arose.
6. It looks scary as hell and in a SHTF scenario with the CX4 on a sling I'd be less likely to be confronted by BG's .
7. Easier to aim in a high stress situation.
8. I can shoot it at the pistol range.

Y'know all the same reasons that pistol caliber carbines were invented. Now if you are talking CCW, not so much.:) ;)

Coronach
October 2, 2006, 11:47 AM
I concur.

The main advantage of the rifle is that it fires a rifle-caliber round. The Storm is not going to do that. However, it is better than a pistol in that you will get slightly higher velocities from the same rounds and you have the handling bonus of a nice, well-balanced carbine. That advantage cannot be overstated; shoulder fired weapons are just plain easier to shoot quickly and accurately than handguns for almost everyone. The main advantage of the pistol is its small size, which in a HD role is less important (concealability means very little, but the ability to clear tight spaces is useful).

Personally, I'm of the opinion that if you are going to grab a rifle-sized weapon, it might as well fire a rifle round. However, the Storm is nothing to sneeze at defensively, and is better than a 9mm pistol.

Mike

Sry0fcr
October 2, 2006, 11:49 AM
It's a marginal self defense weapon. The only benefit of a 9mm pistol is that it is small enough to conceal or to hang on a belt holster without discomfort.

Tell that too all the people that have died after being shot with pistol rounds...

Nitrogen
October 2, 2006, 11:56 AM
Strangely enough, when I went to Front Sight, I heard a stat that made my eyebrows raise.

"82% of all people shot with a handgun live"

I don't know where this stat came from, but it really made me wonder.

To me, teh main advantage of the CX4 would be range, not necessarily power.

From the discussion already, it sounds like you guys are as confused on the subject of it's suitibality as I am, and therefore I feel better :o

Sry0fcr
October 2, 2006, 12:25 PM
I'd be interested to see how what percentage of that "82%" were hit COM instead of receiving superficial wounds. Shot placement is everything.

Doug S
October 2, 2006, 12:30 PM
I read things differently I guess. I don't read any confusion here, just difference of opinion. That's what makes reading these thread fun, gathering information and then trying to make sense of it all. So far the it seems that 7 are in favor of the 9mm carbine, 1 against, along with some other comments/questions. Going by this thread so far, I'd run out and buy the Beretta;) .

HorseSoldier
October 2, 2006, 12:35 PM
Strangely enough, when I went to Front Sight, I heard a stat that made my eyebrows raise.

"82% of all people shot with a handgun live"


Did they give a corresponding statistic for rifles and shotguns?

Mr. Ouchie
October 2, 2006, 12:42 PM
I choose a CX4 as a home defense weapon. It's easy to handle and points well, and pretty importantly my wife can handle it. Recoil is minimal (9mm). Penetrating concrete and brick is definitely something I don't want in a home defense weapon. I can grab a full-size rifle if I need to by the CX4 is what stays by the bed.

crunker
October 2, 2006, 12:45 PM
I guess it would be okay for home defense if you have bigger property, but not too big, or I'd say just go with a full power rifle or carbine. If you have normal sized property though stick with 12 ga. or a high-cap handgun. It would probably be better though if you got an AR-15 carbine converted to 9mm so you can use high cap mags.

Soybomb
October 2, 2006, 12:58 PM
All the power of a handgun round with all the bulk of a rifle.

here's the only relevant stat i'm aware of for mortality:
"Among gunshot assault cases where the firearm type was provided, 82 percent of non-fatal victims were shot with a handgun."
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/press/fidc9397.pr I believe the 82% figure being tossed around in this thread is just a misquote of this one. 82% of those that live through being shot were shot with a handgun. I wonder how many of the rest were shot with a .22 rifle or birdshot....

I don't believe its unheard of for people to survive headshots with pistol rounds. Even just recently with the school shooting in canada, which was oddly enough from a storm, "One patient, 22 year-old Leslie Markofsky, is suffering from two shots in the head; surgeons removed one bullet but the other may be too risky to remove without causing permanent brain damage."

Long story short it performs better than a 9mm handgun and will be easier to hit with than a 9mm handgun but if you're going to have something as big as a rifle, I'd have a real rifle.

Coronach
October 2, 2006, 12:58 PM
Strangely enough, when I went to Front Sight, I heard a stat that made my eyebrows raise.

"82% of all people shot with a handgun live"I really don't care what the stat is for living/dying after being shot with any particular round. I care very much what the stat is for "stopped what they were doing and dropped" when shot with any particular round. The two are not necessarily correlated.

Mike

Jackal
October 2, 2006, 01:09 PM
One also must consider the noise factor. I have shot a Hi Point 9mm carbine from inside my house, out the window and i could still clearly hear afterwards. Now do the same with any .223, and you wont be able to hear a thing, except ringing. In a home defense scenario, the ability to hear the screams of family members, the barking of the dog, or the footsteps of the badguy is a tremendous advantage that cannot be overlooked.

MechAg94
October 2, 2006, 01:26 PM
9 mm will work for self defense. There are better options out there, but it will work.

SWMAN
October 2, 2006, 01:29 PM
It'd be okay for plinking from 50 to 100 yards but for self-defense you could do worse than a 12 gage pump and this is one of them.:)

OEF_VET
October 2, 2006, 01:31 PM
It sure as heck beats using a pointy stick covered in poo.

Glockster35
October 2, 2006, 01:35 PM
Self defense weapon? No way!

Home/property defense weapon...Why not!

Afterall, any weapon for home defense is better than no weapon.

I think 9mm being shot out of a carbine length firearm is a good option for home defense, but since it is hardly able to be concealed on your person, IMHO it is not a good option for self defense.

MachIVshooter
October 2, 2006, 02:31 PM
People are going to say that if you're going to get a rifle then get a rifle. Honestly, I don't think you can call self defense shooting at someone 200 yards away...

The logic behind using a rifle caliber for HD is not the extended range. The point here is that if you're going to use a long gun, it might as well be in a rifle caliber because they are far more effective. 9mm typically gains 100-200 FPS from a 16" tube vs. a 5" tube. Not a whole lot of imrovement for the extra size/weight. The 5.56mm is a more more devastating round and can be had in weapons smaller and lighter than a Cx4.

Downside to using rifle cartridges for HD is noise. Touch off a 16" .223 indoors W/O ear protection and you'll likely suffer permanent hearing damage.

Spencer
October 2, 2006, 05:50 PM
Well isn't a 9mm pistol a respectable self defense weapon? How can improving on that be a bad thing?

9mm is bad when compared to .357 mag or .40 S&W (even though I don't like 40 S&W). The only upside is the compactness of the round which makes for more concealable weapons, and with a carbine that's gone. You'd be packing alot more heat with a rifle that is chambered for an actual rifle caliber.

.223 Remington vs 9mm Luger

3200 ft/sec velocity vs 1300 ft/sec velocity
1200 ft/lbs energy vs 400 ft/lbs energy
RIFLE SIZE- Same

People are going to say that if you're going to get a rifle then get a rifle. Honestly, I don't think you can call self defense shooting at someone 200 yards away...

I stated, above, the approximate muzzle velocities and energies on a .223 and 9mm. Now you decide which one would hurt more at 5 feet from the muzzle.

Mr. Ouchie
October 2, 2006, 06:36 PM
ft/lbs isn't everything. For home defense over-penetration is an issue. Of course bullet choice will have to come into consideration, I keep mine loaded with gold dots. You can go with +P ammo in the CX4 as well.

You can get CX4's in multiple calibers btw, 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP. The unfortunate thing about the .45 ACP version is that Beretta only has 8-round magazines for it, but that's supposed to change in the future.

Spencer
October 2, 2006, 07:31 PM
ft/lbs isn't everything. For home defense over-penetration is an issue. Of course bullet choice will have to come into consideration, I keep mine loaded with gold dots. You can go with +P ammo in the CX4 as well.

You can get CX4's in multiple calibers btw, 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP. The unfortunate thing about the .45 ACP version is that Beretta only has 8-round magazines for it, but that's supposed to change in the future.

So you're saying stopping power doesn't really matter? Hell then, we could use .22 LR for all our home defense needs.

No matter how you try to rationalize it, a rifle chambered in a rifle caliber is just better than one chambered in a pistol caliber.

The only real reason I can see of having a pistol caliber carbine is for plinking or just to have something different, a novelty.

The only place 9mm has real authority is in submachine guns.

Doug S
October 2, 2006, 08:00 PM
No offense, but I think that anyone who flatly denies the viability of a hi-capacity 9mm carbine as a HD firearm, is just cuckoo. No one asked if it was the perfect firearm for home defense, they only asked if it was a suitable alternative within it’s limitations. It is. I sure wouldn’t want to go up against a well trained individual armed with a Sub 2000 and a 33 round magazine filled with hollow points (within normal house defense ranges). The gun is maneuverable, has little recoil, and is capable of a high rate of accurate firepower. Not many deny that with modern defensive loads, that the 9mm is a decent stopper. It has sufficient stopping power for its intended purpose. I’m sure the same could be said for the CX4 as a home defense carbine. We could nitpick all day long, but that wouldn’t change the fact that, although not perfect, a handy pistol caliber carbine is a viable defensive firearm within the limitations of it's cartridge.

The Deer Hunter
October 2, 2006, 08:07 PM
The storms were designed for HD.

Mr. Ouchie
October 2, 2006, 09:26 PM
ft/lbs != stopping power. If that energy isn't dumped into the target then it's just wasted. Again, it's all going to depend on your choice of ammo, barrel length/velocity for .233 fragmentation, house construction and layout dictating whether or not you have worry about over-penetration taking out your kids or neighbors, etc. You could use an AK and perforate your intruder as well as the intruders on the next block, but that might not go over too well with your neighbors. http://thehighroad.org/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
:D

cslinger
October 2, 2006, 09:39 PM
Well this is actually going much better then then I expected. :neener: :scrutiny:

geekWithA.45
October 2, 2006, 10:13 PM
Pistol caliber carbines are one of those indeterminate, in between kinda things.


You get a slight power boost, with the right ammo, and, of course, a longarm is easier to wield over longer ranges than a handgun, the chance of getting those life saving hits increases, and A semi auto PCC tends to be a (lot!) lighter than a semi auto full up rifle, usually weighing in around 5 pounds.

They have their place.

I recommend them for housedefense to n00bs and occassional shooters who can not/will not commit to the minimum amount of training and range time to _master_ a handgun, in preference to handguns or shotguns.

I also happen to keep on in my trunk, as it the only one of my many arms that is lawful in all the various jurisdictions I travel in.

Honestly, though, I'd rather have a rifle in said trunk.

In a katrina/shtf sorta situation, the PCC becomes one of the "arm the neighbor" weapons.

MachIVshooter
October 3, 2006, 12:11 AM
ft/lbs isn't everything. For home defense over-penetration is an issue. Of course bullet choice will have to come into consideration, I keep mine loaded with gold dots. You can go with +P ammo in the CX4 as well.

5.56mm has proven time and time again to be less likely to exit a domestic structure than standard handgun rounds.

And you're right-ft/lbs aren't everything. Trauma is, and the 5.56mm causes a whole lot more of it than any normal handgun cartridge.

Saiga39
October 3, 2006, 12:33 AM
I just wanted to throw out there that the nut job in Montreal who killed one person and wounded 19 others at a college a few weeks ago, used a Storm.

Eightball
October 3, 2006, 12:52 AM
The search function is a wonderful feature......

I'd say buy it. It's somewhere on my list, closer to the bottom, mainly as a "fun gun". That's the only reason you need.

Mr. Ouchie
October 3, 2006, 12:57 AM
Yeah, that's why you don't use standard handgun rounds for home defense. You use hollow points or their ilk.

From my understanding you only get a lot of trauma from .223 if the velocity is up there enough to cause fragmentation, shorter barreled weapons might not let them get up to speed, and full-sized weapons can be unwieldy in close quarters.

No one is going to count on a one-shot stop, so the ability to get off a number of shots with good control is important. Of course, most of all that means training with your weapon of choice. Whatever works for you.

beerslurpy
October 3, 2006, 01:22 AM
Tell that too all the people that have died after being shot with pistol rounds...

Way more people die of knife and strangulation but no one brings those to a gunfight. Rifle is just plain superior if you dont have to conceal.

mr.trooper
October 3, 2006, 01:23 AM
It's a marginal self defense weapon. The only benefit of a 9mm pistol is that it is small enough to conceal or to hang on a belt holster without discomfort.

And the 45acp is Gods gift to the faithfull I suppose. :rolleyes:

Rifles are terrible defencive weapons; especialy for those of us in the suburbs. Ill take a quality hollowpoint from a handgun over a varmint bullet from a rifle.

marksman13
October 4, 2006, 01:58 AM
why not...longer barrel gives better ballistics than a handgun. Has the point and shoot capability of a rifle without the overpenetration...sounds like a winner to me...but would get in a .40 cal if possible...

Bartholomew Roberts
October 4, 2006, 08:11 AM
I don't think there is any question it is passable for self-defense use. Obviously, it isn't the optimum choice and pistol-caliber carbines would be at the bottom of any list of long guns I was going to use for that role; but it can certainly do the job and has some advantages over a pistol.

As for rifles for home defense, there are a lot of myths being repeated in this thread that have been covered in depth in the tacked "Reading Library" thread.

From my understanding you only get a lot of trauma from .223 if the velocity is up there enough to cause fragmentation

The shortest barrel you can own without doing the NFA paperwork is the 16" barrel, which will keep military FMJ above the fragmentation threshhold velocities out to 100yds easily. You are also not bound by the Geneva Convention so you have the additional option of selecting ammunition that is more effective to begin with.

Rifles are terrible defencive weapons; especialy for those of us in the suburbs. Ill take a quality hollowpoint from a handgun over a varmint bullet from a rifle.

9mm hollowpoints almost always penetrate intermediate barriers and ballistic gel better than a .223. The library threads have several comparisons in ballistic gel after intermediate barriers. In both surburbs and urban settings, most law enforcement have dropped 9mm subguns in favor of .223 carbines.

However, just because an intermediate caliber centerfire rifle may be better, it doesn't mean that a CX4 Storm shoots nerf bullets or is incapable of home defense. It can certainly do the job if you can.

Double Naught Spy
October 4, 2006, 08:54 AM
Why wouldn't it? People are going to say that if you're going to get a rifle then get a rifle. Honestly, I don't think you can call self defense shooting at someone 200 yards away...

Really? So what you are saying is that if somebody is 200 yards away and shooting at you that you can't return fire because that would not be self defnese? That seems naive. There are several questions to resolve the self defense issue that might be asked. Did the opposition of have the intent, opportunity, and ability to hurt you from 200 yards? Were you in fear for your life?

-------------------------------------

I have a Storm. Given the size and if you have a choice, going with a rifle caliber for defense would be a much better option. It is a great plinker and a lot of fun, but not a first choice for defense and not a good choice if you have the option to buy something else.

As for the 200 yard defense, you definitely can hit human-sized silhouette targets at that range, but environmental conditions seem to really start reeking havoc with ballistics and accuracy at that range and by 300 the Storm seems better as an 'area' shooter. Out to 100, it is an easy gun to shoot well, however.

Of course you could go crazy with an ACOG, light, vertical grip, and 100 rounds on board...

strambo
October 4, 2006, 10:12 AM
Seems like some folks need to look into the mechanism of wounding for pistols more. FT/lbs of energy pretty much is irrelevant in and of itself. It is only usefull as a potential indicator of the ability of a pistol bullet to achieve what is relevant.

The only relevant thing (for pistols) is how big the permanent wound cavity is (how much tissue is destroyed). This is based on depth (penetration) and diameter. So, a 125 gr .357 magnum bullet that penetrates 13" in ballistic gel and expands to .60" has the exact same real-world wounding potential as a 124 gr 9mm projectile from a carbine that penetrates 13" and expands to .60".

So, the .40 and .45s are "better" than the 9mm because they can penetrate deeper and/or expand larger creating a bigger permanent cavity. The .380 is worse than the 9mm because the slower velocity does not give you the same penetration and expansion as the 9mm. 357 Sig (gonna get flamed) isn't really better than the best 9mm +P loadings because they both penetrate about 12-13" and expand to .55-.62" or so. The 9mm bullet can't really expand anymore than this and though the designers could achieve more penetration in the 357 Sig (extra ft/lbs to work with), they don't because it is considered overpenetration for defensive rounds.

In rifles the velocities are much, much higher. This creates a temporary wound cavity that ruptures organs and destroys tissue. Damage is above and out of proportion to just the permanent wound cavity.

As far as "dumping energy" into a target having an effect in stopping an aggressor...Newton says 100% of the same level of energy is "dumped" into your hand when you shoot...doesn't stop you any. It's that energy, propelling an object with a small surface area that can penetrate a human body and damage tissue that matters. For pistols, the energy is just to achieve penetration. .44 magnum and above might start to get rifle type effects, but I don't know at what velocity this starts to occur other than somewhere north of 1400 fps or so. Maybe someone more knowledgeable than I (not hard to find) can chime in?

s23246g
November 26, 2006, 01:13 AM
First of all, forgive me if this doesn't flow well, as I have been awake for about 30 hrs at this point. I promise to be more articulate in the future.
I am a former Police Officer, who served many years on a Drug Task Force in a rural county in Kansas. We did many many raids on drug labs, homes, mobile labs in fields, etc, and I wish to hell I had had my Storm back then. (The irony is I couldn't afford it on a cop's salary). Since I am highly trained with my Beretta 9mm 92fs (I scored 100% on the practical course at the academy in case you're wondering), I chose the 9mm Storm so the mags would interchange. I have set up my Storm as a home defense weapon, adding a red dot sight, a light, and upgrading to 15 and 20 round magazines. I would challenge anyone to tell me that I chose poorly.
I keep the 92fs and the storm loaded with Black Talon/Ranger SXT, and I am confident that they would stop any intruder from continuing any naughtyness he had in mind while he was finding his way into my home. As someone mentioned, shot placement is key. Someone also made an argument against the Storm, and in favor of the MP5. :confused: Hello?! isn't the only difference semi auto vs full auto. I would not want to be launching a volley of full auto 9mm inside my home with my wife and children hiding somewhere inside.
I am able to hit a 4 inch steel plate at 100 yards consistently with my Storm.
That being said, I do live in the city, and do worry about over-penetration. BUT, I would MUCH rather shoot my Storm in my home than a .223, or any large rifle caliber. (I did carry a CAR 15 while working as a Deputy, and while it would be good for the field, or a barricade situation, I would not want to use one for CQB)
In my opinion/experience, 9mm IS an effective cartridge for home defense, otherwise I wold not have trusted my life to it for all those years. I would recommend the Storm (in whatever caliber) for home defense, but you might also want to invest in some accessories such as a top rail, red dot sight, tactical light, etc. It is a fun gun to shoot too.
My 2 cents... Keep the change.

torpid
November 26, 2006, 01:57 AM
...I'd love to pick one up, but in order to do so, I have to convince myself it'd be at least passable for self defense uses.

So how silly am I for even considering this?

Well I guess the answer lies in this question:

If you were thinking about breaking into somebody's home armed with, say a crowbar and a hunting knife for nefarious purposes, would you consider the occupants being armed a CX-4 in 9mm an irrelavent distraction, and cavalierly press on with your break in because it was only laughably useless 9mm?

If not, then I'd say it's at least passable...

s&w 24
November 26, 2006, 03:06 AM
If you like it and will shoot a stack of ammo thru it go ahead. low recoil and increased accurace over a handgun.

It's not the tool but the tool user that matters.

HGUNHNTR
November 26, 2006, 10:54 AM
9mm probably won't go through the walls into my kids room, the .223 definitly will. Why do I need a AR or AK in my house?

Monkeybear
November 26, 2006, 11:14 AM
HGUNHNTR - 9mm has been show to penetrate more reliably through walls than .223. Look into it, its a common misconception. Its also a can of worms so Ill not go further into it.

If your gonna use a pistol carbine for HD then keep in mind 9mm is cheaper than just about anything you put in a rifle so you better use that to your advantage. Practice. Practice. Practice.

Jerry Morris
November 26, 2006, 12:45 PM
A handgun is what you use for defense, when you should have had a rifle, or shotgun. A pistol cartridge in a rifle is a major compromise, to be used only when absolutely necessary.

That said, I do have handguns. But, if I know there is going to be lethal shooting, I am looking for that rifle. The handgun is merely a back up for that scary nightmare situation, where the rifle is no longer working, or one of my arms is not working very well, either.

Nothing in life is guaranteed, except that it will eventually end. Everything can fail. Look at Clyde's brother Buck Barrow.

Jerry

mmike87
November 26, 2006, 02:20 PM
It's certainly not as silly as having no gun at all for defense.

ryoushi
November 26, 2006, 02:33 PM
I like the idea of a carbine chambered in the same round as your SD handgun. I like my SA 1911 in .45 acp so a Storm in .45 would be cool. I can hit with the pistol, my wife can hit better with a shoulder fired weapon.

I live in Calif, though so no Storm for me.

dfaugh
November 26, 2006, 02:39 PM
I have a large house, and therefore keep 4 HD guns handy
Upstairs/downstairs and front and rear. One of them is a 9mm Hi-Point carbine. Loaded with +P+ Black Talons. Wouldn't be the first gun I'd use (prefer shotgun w/ 00 buck), but if that's the one I can get to, I wouldn't worry about it doing the job.

Bazooka Joe71
November 26, 2006, 03:07 PM
I don't think theres any question that it would be just fine to use for SD. Get a red dot for it and you'd be money.(is that the response you were looking for?)

Just pick up a Px4 to go with it:)

MinScout
November 26, 2006, 04:29 PM
Well, here's my $.02. If I lived in an urban area where break ins and home invasions were common, I'd definitely consider a carbine like the CX Storm over a handgun. It's a bit more powerful and it can be fired more accurately. Assuming one practiced with it and used a good dot sight, It would certainly be an advantage over some thug with a handgun. I'd be interested to see a ballistic comparison between the much-vaunted 125 gr JHP .357 fired from a 4 inch barrel and a 124 gr JHP 9mm+P from a carbine. Might be interesting

Also, unlike a shotgun with buckshot, recoil is very slight, so other family members could probably handle it pretty easily, even one handed, if required.

smince
November 26, 2006, 05:09 PM
I have a Mechtech CCU on a 1911 frame. That is my usual choice as a go-to weapon at home, although I have several rifles and pistols and am reasonably proficient with each. At 30" overall (after adding the CAR-type stock to it) it is very handy, light-recoil, very accurate and reliable. I use Wilson Combat 10-round mags in mine loaded with Black Hills 230grn +P's.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=47520&d=1162954423

I don't see a problem with the Storm Carbine.

Walkalong
November 27, 2006, 07:53 PM
If I make it to my gun safe in time the loaded weapons are.
A 1911 .45 auto
A CCU in .45
A Ruger mini 14 - next to my unloaded scoped AR.
and a NAA .22 Mag ?? just is. (a pick it up and go kinda thing)

CX4 in 9mm in the back. Now .40 or .45 would be something.

Motor-T
November 27, 2006, 09:30 PM
I think everybody has strayed far from the premise of the thread. Nitrogen wanted to know if the CX4 would be "at least passable for self defense uses".

He's looking for a marginal reason to buy the gun.

I say that the storm is at least passable for personal defense in the home. So buy it if you want it. It's what I would do. ;)

RaetherEnt
November 27, 2006, 09:54 PM
I lOVE my Storm .45. It's more accurate than any pistol I have, and with the laser mounted on front I can very quickly acquire targets and make shots. (On paper at least :)

For home defense, I use the shotgun. Barring that, I would much rather have the Storm than any of my .45 pistols in case a BG was coming down my hallway late at night.

Walkalong
November 28, 2006, 12:42 PM
I think everybody has strayed far from the premise of the thread
Right you are Motor-T
Yes! If the Storm was .40 or .45 or if you just like 9mm the CX4 Storm would more than pass mustard!:)

torpid
November 28, 2006, 01:52 PM
I think everybody has strayed far from the premise of the thread.

Hey, I didn't!

:)

gscrasher
November 28, 2006, 02:20 PM
The original question certainly generated a storm of response. Good excercise.

Many people regard the 9 mm, .40 SW, and .45 ACP as suitable and sufficient calibers for self-defense handguns. Couple this with the fact that for most folks it is much easier to shoot well with a compact carbine than with a pistol, especially when under extreme stress. It seems inescapable that the Storm in a pistol caliber would be a fine self-defense weapon.

Much discussion has been carried on about the same problem on other forums, often centering around Marlin lever actions in .357 or similar types of guns.

Recall the reason for the the development of the .30 M1 Carbine during WW2.

My 2 cents.

anotherinkling
November 28, 2006, 02:56 PM
It's great. Get one if you like it. I had a chance to shoot a .45 Storm not long ago and really liked it. Good ergonomics (and I went in skeptical) and super accurate at the close ranges you're talking about. Four milk jugs and quick double-taps to each at 15-20 yards--fun! I shoot 1911s more accurately than other types of handguns, but the Storm beats a handgun readily (of course). For home defense, a shotgun's going to be my first choice, but a Storm would work well at longer ranges. Just be cautious about what lies beyond your target.

Curare
November 28, 2006, 03:57 PM
I really don't care what the stat is for living/dying after being shot with any particular round. I care very much what the stat is for "stopped what they were doing and dropped" when shot with any particular round. The two are not necessarily correlated.


I believe that there is a correlation between "[stops]" and deaths. You do not have to have a 100% match between 2 events for a correlation to be present. For example a 50% correlation would imply that 50% of Stops would be Deaths. A correlation is present but it is not 1:1.

Keith Wheeler
November 28, 2006, 04:09 PM
I've mentioned my SBR Uzi carbines in other threads.

My wife and I shoot our Uzis quite often. I don't think we'd shoot a shotgun, if we owned one, nearly as often. So in a general sense maybe a shotgun is better, but isn't the gun you actually know how to use a feel comfortable with better than the theoretical "best" gun?

We live in a semi-rural area, on 30 acres. I don't feel bad at all thinking of my Uzi as a "property defense" type of weapon. And it'll shoot +P+ subgun loads, which are not the same thing as 9mm pistol ammunition.

1911user
November 28, 2006, 04:55 PM
A storm would work fine. I have a kel-tec sub2K in 9mm and have no issues with it being used for home (or yard) defense. The fold-in-half feature is a nice bonus for travel or storage. I can shoot paper plates at 50 yards quickly with no problem; good enough for me.

mindwip
November 28, 2006, 05:01 PM
I say get the gun you want. Be it rifle in .22 or pistol in .22 or a 30-06. No matter what, shooting someone with a bullet tends to give the guy pause as to weather this is a good idea or not. Get what you want and have fun. Be safe. Enjoy showing off your bg gun to all your friends.



My 2 cents

Skeptic
November 28, 2006, 06:39 PM
If you want the gun and can legally purchase it, then do so.

dispatch55126
November 28, 2006, 08:28 PM
There is an elderly guy on the news who killed a burgler with a .22 rifle. Anything works if used correctly.

ArfinGreebly
November 28, 2006, 08:51 PM
+1 on SuperNaut.

I have a CX4-9. I also have a Marlin Camp 9. They both hit coke bottles nearly every time at 50 yards. The Marlin is really for outdoor use. The CX4 has been designed for closer quarters.

The CX4 has better ergonomics up close. It's shorter, lighter, balances farther back, has a front rail for light/laser, can be fired one-handed, fired from the hip, and with wide open sights it acquires very quickly at distances < 20 yards.

(Wide open sights: the rear sight has three positions, long range (peep), short range (peep), and wide open -- where you're looking through a gap a half-inch wide to the front sight.)

In my house, the only places I'd have trouble with it would be the smaller bedrooms and bathrooms. I have nearly 60 unobstructed feet from my bedroom door to the front door, and 20-to-30 foot areas in most other areas.

Although intimidation is not a guaranteed stopper, I know for sure that if I walked in on someone with one of those, I would put the crowbar down and back away.

And, since you're going to be getting a PX4 in the same calibre :evil: you'll be pleased to note that the current crop of CX4s and PX4s will share not only ammo but also magazines. If you get an older CX4, then the mag well works with the 92 and 96 mags, but they do an adaptor for those which allows using the PX4 mags.

Home defense? Absolutely.
Estate (yard, grounds, soccer pitch) defense? Absolutely.
Personal defense? Would fit nicely in the car's trunk or behind the seat in the truck.
Just fine for CCW, assuming you're nine feet tall and wear baggy pants. :D

Foxtrot427
November 28, 2006, 09:48 PM
Would firing a .223 inside without ears really permanently damage your hearing? A folding stocked .223 rifle like a converted dr-200, ar180b, some AKs, su-16 seem like good rifles. Just if a .223 is really that intense inside, thats not good for follow ups.

smince
November 28, 2006, 10:58 PM
I really don't care what the stat is for living/dying after being shot with any particular round. I care very much what the stat is for "stopped what they were doing and dropped" when shot with any particular round. The two are not necessarily correlated.
If I were to fire a shot and miss, but it caused the BG to stop his action, would it still be considered a "One-shot stop"?:D

ArfinGreebly
November 29, 2006, 06:01 AM
You definitely want to have something covering your ears for that dance.

A couple of barks from a 16-inch AR indoors will leave you with church bells and mosquitos for hours -- even days.

I'm still wondering why the Surgeon General hasn't campaigned for mandatory suppressors on home defense weapons.

gaweidert
November 29, 2006, 09:35 AM
Ok. If you break into my house, I will use my Hi-Point 955 carbine to fight my way to my Camp Defender. If you are still coming at me after 8 rounds of 00 then I grab one of my AR's loaded with 60 grain TAP. After that it's my SAR-1. As second to last resort you face my Garand. If you are still kicking then I just grab one of my Mosin Nagants and beat you to death. When you finally stop kicking I mount the bayonet to it and stick you to the floor so you don't move until the cops come. :eek:

A Storm should work fine. Biggest thing is training with the weapon you intend to use so that everything you do with it is a habit. Having it and not being intimately familiar with it isn't much better than not having it. In such a scenario you will be under stress and will revert to whatever training you have. Training will give you the confidence and control to face the situation with a high likelyhood of a favorable, for you, outcome.

ozwyn
November 29, 2006, 10:05 AM
Should be fine. Considering from a budget standpoint you can get a pistol and carbine that share both caliber and magazines and get the job done (assuming you do yours on shot placement, and hey, if you need to stop a threat, don't be too stingy on ammo if your life is on the line.)

Not everyone wants to store a ton of ammunition in 4+ calibers, so for a 1-2 caliber collection solution it should be a good choice.

Fred Fuller
November 29, 2006, 10:05 AM
A Storm or other similar pistol caliber carbine will do just fine for defense at home- IF you will do, that is. It's the shooter that matters more than the hardware.

lpl/nc

geronimo13
November 29, 2006, 04:03 PM
I forgot to return my ear plugs after disasembly of my .223 semi auto, 16" barrel and after firing lost my high notes in my right ear (partial deafness) for 3 MONTHES. The 9 mm pistol isn't anywhere near as loud.:rolleyes: I would like a sub2k too. I think a 9mm or any pistol cartridge in a rifle would be quite effective. To me the big advantage to a shoulder fired weapon is: better accuracy, quicker aquisition, much better range (150 yard), better ballistics (chrono reports on the sub2k add 200'/sec. over a pistol), and having a 30 round mag would be the kicker. The advantages of a .223 would be better ballistics, and quicker reloading with stripper clips. A PLR16 would be plenty small enough for close quarters and still has good 100 yd. accuracy. Keep the ear muffs next to the gun.:eek: I would like to have a 9mm sub gun w/ 3 30 round mags. The storm sounds like a good choice. You will practice a lot more because the 9mm is SO cheap. Practice makes perfect.

wacki
November 29, 2006, 07:23 PM
I hope all of you people ragging on the storm realize that it comes in 45 ACP as well.

farlander
December 13, 2006, 09:08 PM
I'll stay with my AK. That little hellion makes it's presence well known, is light, and next to never fails (ammo only). I'm also pretty confident that it can shoot all the way through this crap box house I live in thus entertaining the idea of some "collateral cleanup" of the neighborhood.

And who is going to stick around for a guy pumping thirty round mags full of very loud death pills in their general direction??

So far as the CX4 is concerned, can you ever really have too many guns???? Justify it however you like.

Yosemite**Sam
December 14, 2006, 01:59 AM
This is a great thread and it's interesting to read both facts and opinions. I own a few firearms and when I retire to a gun friendly state I plan to use a CX4 for home defense. I currently teach LE officers to shoot rifle and handguns and I have shot both 9mm (mp5) and .223 rifles (AR-15). Someone here mentioned that the 9mm will over penetrate walls where as the .223 will break up. This is a fact as the .223 will generally break up upon impact due to higher velocity.

I personally prefer the 9mm for home defense as it has a mild report and very little recoil. The CX4 is a great point shooter type weapon. Very accurate. I believe that the biggest downfall for the CX4 is it's horrible trigger.

Good luck with your decision.

accomplice
December 14, 2006, 03:01 AM
I've owned several kinds of guns (ARs, AKs, HK clones, FS2000, etc.). The 9mm Storm that I had ran like a dream. It was probably the most reliable long gun I've owned short of my AKs. Going bang every time is about as crucial a characteristic when judging viability for home defense as any other in my book. It's also pretty inexpensive and very handy/ high in the pointability measure also. Have at it.

FlaXD
January 7, 2007, 10:17 PM
The advantages of a .223 would be better ballistics, and quicker reloading with stripper clips. A PLR16 would be plenty small enough for close quarters and still has good 100 yd. accuracy. Keep the ear muffs next to the gun.

And what good are earmuffs? If you put them on you ain't going to hear the BG shuffling around behind you. If you have them off are you going to ask the BG for a moment while you put them on?

OTOH - if some BG gets a load of me with those big geen things on he might either die from laughing so hard or figure I'm some kind of psycho and high-tail it out of there. :neener:

telomerase
January 7, 2007, 10:20 PM
and what good are earmuffs?

He means the kind with mics built in.

ithacalover
January 8, 2007, 02:27 AM
Home defence? There isn't much else the Storm seems suitable for. I've never understood the purpose of producing firearms like that. You only seem to see 9mm semi-auto carbines in the aftermath of school shootings anyways (nasty topic, I'll admit, but true). First with Columbine and lately with Dawson College in Montreal. And of course then the media fills pages with phrases like "high powered assault rifle" or "machine gun" of which the gun is neither.

A carbine in .223 serves a useful purpose. A 9mm Beretta pistol does, too. Why do we need the Beretta Storm?

Zero_DgZ
January 8, 2007, 10:48 AM
Same reason the anti's can't understand a "reason" for whatever guns they're villanizing this week.

If you don't like them, don't buy one. Divisive "type of gun" politics don't earn us anything.

hnm201
January 8, 2007, 05:23 PM
I can't believe that no one has mentioned that the PX4 will take down a Cylon Centurian with a single head shot.

Personally, until we're all jumping through hyperspace in ship built from giant legos and battling 9" tall robots with PX4 that shoot super cool **exploding** ammunition, I'll stick to rifle calibers in my rifles and carbines and pistol calibers in my pistols, which I can conceal in my waistband.

A PX4 or other high quality pistol-cal carbine isn't a poor plebian's MP-9. It's a single action carbine for mall-ninjas who only shoot in indoor ranges.

hnm201
January 8, 2007, 05:26 PM
I hope all of you people ragging on the storm realize that it comes in 45 ACP as well.

:p Personally, if I have the time to reach for a long arm for self-defense in the home, I'm reaching for an 870 or an AR15. The .45 is a great handgun round.

rallyhound
January 8, 2007, 10:24 PM
Rounds on target are the only ones that count..
For me that means the storm.. I can put ten rounds on target faster with my 9mm storm than any other gun i own. I just shoot it better.
It also lighter and shorter than most rifles.
I also find it much easier to fire single handed, due to it's weight and balance, which may be useful in a home defense situation.

smince
January 8, 2007, 10:29 PM
Those of you decrying the pistol caliber carbine rounds probably wouldn't volunteer to stand in front of one, would you?

GrumpyBunny
January 9, 2007, 12:44 AM
New member here. Please pardon all my errors or occassional lack of social skills.

The Beretta carbine in a 9mm that started all this hype is an outstanding firearm. If one favors the 9mm and trains with / prefers a carbine for a home defense gun - so be it.

Like the new guy s23246, I too worked in law -enforcement - on the security guy side, packing whatever was required, 38 or 9mm mostly. On the 9mm packing, never had a requirement to actualy use it - but the BGs did! from a distance of 50 + feet these BGs managed to pump holes into each oher without a fatality. I guess shot-placement was not high on their training list but it should have been as one shooter was active duty military. All victims had multiple entry and exit wounds.

I did not like having to carry the mil-spec issue round of 115 graing FMJ which is what the BGs packed and fired.

Ya ever wonder why the military / LAPD are now going to 45's? Those who do not understand history are doomed to repeat it. As a retired Marine, I would opt for a self defense round in .40 or .45 cals. Ballistics are similar. If I opted for a CHL / CCW / home defense firearm, The mil-spec Auto Ordnance 1911A1 is VERY HIGH on my must have list. While it will not penetrate good body armor, it will give the opponent some serious smacking. The subject firearm is available in .45. Not sure about the .40.

In CQC, such as one's home, I would HIGHLY recommend frangible cartridges of whatever caliber one intends to use. I also highly recomend a pistol over a carbine but don't forget a small flashlight such as a Streamlight Scorpion and a a laser dot device are also very good ideas which I again highly recommend.

For a situation like Katrina, the carbine is an outstanding alternate choice because of size and increased range while still being fairly compact.

If your budget and time are both limited, by a Mossburg 12 gauge shot gun with a mounted flashlight and a box of light load bird-shot shells. Just jacking a round in the chamber is enough to send anyone above the age of 14 into cold chills and the size will definitely make an impression!

Soybomb
January 9, 2007, 12:44 AM
Those of you decrying the pistol caliber carbine rounds probably wouldn't volunteer to stand in front of one, would you?
I also wouldn't advise someone use a .22 short for home defense and wouldn't stand in front of one. You'll have to decide for yourself what size wound channel is acceptable enough, but a "real" rifle will make a much larger one than any pistol caliber round. I see it as a voluntary handicapping.

Ballistics are similar.

In CQC, such as one's home, I would HIGHLY recommend frangible cartridges of whatever caliber one intends to use.
To each his own, seldom do you see those who worry about ballistics of 9mm, .40 and .45 go to frangibles though...

ArfinGreebly
January 9, 2007, 02:27 AM
If I could be sure that I always had ear gear for such an event, I might be tempted to use a "real" rifle for HD.

Without ear gear, I would have to choose something with adequate punch that's not going to cost me my hearing. (Yes, I hear you at the back saying "what good is hearing if you're dead?")

I've never fired a 586 in an enclosed space, but I'll just bet it's almost as good as a stage seat at a rock concert. Now, that same "pistol" cartridge fired from the 1894C would gain another 250 mph or so, yet yield a lower auditory trauma. If I'm really worried about stomping power, I'm thinking that would be "acceptable."

But, back to the topic, I think my hearing would survive the CX4. It balances well, I point well with it. And 15 rounds (20 if I use mag #2) of 9mm jhp +p will flat ruin anyone's day.

I have them both, but I guess the only way to be sure is to schedule a couple of break-ins and use one on the first night, and the other on the next.

I would, of course, file a range/field report with y'all.

berettashotgun
January 9, 2007, 03:23 AM
I think, heck- I KNOW, the little carbine would work excellent as a H.D. weapon. Even be better if you could mount a bayonet charge with it.:neener: Nah, it would be an excellent choice- MUCH better than almost everyone believes, as your accuracy would be ten fold during times of stress with a carbine vs. a sidearm. "Just jacking a round in the chamber is enough to send anyone above the age of 14 into cold chills and the size will definitely make an impression" I giggle uncontrollably whenever I hear this- my youngest boy ( now 18 ) heard this once when he was a little tyke; his reply was "nobody ever crapped their pants when we went hunting":rolleyes:

Dday
December 15, 2008, 11:26 PM
The venerable 9MM has killed hundreds of thousands (maybe millions). Most all were dispatched to the afterlife at distances of less than 50 feet. Unless you live in a palace with rooms exceeding 50 feet, your Storm would be fired at CQB distances - just as was intended when the 9MM was designed. The longer barrel length of the CX4 (as compared to a similarly chambered pistol) provides additional advantages. The Storm doesn't just pass for HD, it is a damn good choice. Pick up a few of the 30 round mags and you'll feel even safer.

Coronach
December 16, 2008, 12:03 AM
Thread necromancy?

Sam Boca
December 16, 2008, 12:04 AM
Have you considered getting the CX4 in .45 ACP or .40 S&W??

lipadj46
December 16, 2008, 12:17 AM
Yes I think a pistol round carbine ala CX4 9mm is acceptable for HD and probably better suited in some person's "home" and not so good for another's. It is good to have some choices though (not exactly a CX4 but close enough):

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr70/donlipa/both2.jpg

Also have a couple 12 ga to choose from in the same pile.

Edit: Yikes this is an old thread, did not realize. Pretty much a topic that comes up often though.

mgregg85
December 16, 2008, 12:19 AM
Uh neither? CX4 is basically a pistol with the bulk of a rifle. You'd be better off with either a pistol or a real rifle shooting a real rifle caliber. Ie, an AK or AR in some intermediate caliber. For the cost of a storm, you could get a really good AK or build a decent AR.

Sorry but that makes no sense, why would you be better off with a pistol in the same caliber that is harder to shoot accurately?

I'd take my 9mm sub-2000(glock grip) over a glock pistol in a fight anyday, easier to make hits with the longer sight radius and improved sights.

Whew, didn't realize how old this thread was.

skeet king
December 16, 2008, 12:24 AM
the 9 mm won't fly through your walls and kill the neighbor compared to a 5.56 I still like the 12 gauge though

Mass-Diver
December 16, 2008, 12:31 AM
As others have posted, lots of LEOs and military personnel seem pretty confident in the MP5 (even these days). So, I don't have a problem with with +P 9mm HPs for home defense.

My question, though, is why didn't Beretta give the Storm a true pistol grip? Is it a tactical design, a legal thing?

lipadj46
December 16, 2008, 12:37 AM
My question, though, is why didn't Beretta give the Storm a true pistol grip? Is it a tactical design, a legal thing?

I can't say for certain but probably counts as a thumbhole stock and therefore a more flexible platform in ban states.

ugaarguy
December 16, 2008, 12:39 AM
I guess I'll respond to this zombie of a thread
the 9 mm won't fly through your walls and kill the neighbor compared to a 5.56
5.56 NATO, with proper ammo selection, is actually less likely to over penetrate than 9x19. See the rifle forum reading library for several links on the issue.
My question, though, is why didn't Beretta give the Storm a true pistol grip? Is it a tactical design, a legal thing?
Legal thing - the current Storm stock is a thumb hole stock, so it's not a pistol grip, detachable magazine "assault weapon" in the more restrictive states. I'm not sure if the Storm is made at Beretta USA, or at Beretta in Italy. If the latter, the thumb hole stock lets Beretta import it and avoid violating 922(r).

Beagle-zebub
December 16, 2008, 01:02 AM
Why not get this carbine in .40 or .45?

jackdanson
December 16, 2008, 01:06 AM
Proper shot placement with a cx4 is much easier than with a pistol. I would still rather have a shotgun or AR for SD, but I reckon a cx4 would be more than sufficent for the task.

Coronach
December 16, 2008, 02:18 AM
Why not get this carbine in .40 or .45?Depends on why you're getting it. If you're buying it as a fighting weapon, yeah, I'd rather have it in .45 or .40, or .308, 12g or 5.56 or 7.62x39.

If you're buying it as a fun gun with defense as a secondary use, 9mm is cheaper than all of them, and has no recoil to speak of.

Mike

dscottw88
December 16, 2008, 02:18 AM
I agree with Coronach 110%. Coudn't have said it any better.

goldie
December 16, 2008, 02:06 PM
i had one for a while,when it first came out, it was a great little carbine,& very accurate, i only sold it cause i got a great deal on an hk usc.the storm would be great for home defense,especially with a 20 or 30 rd after mmarket mags.16" barrel with hollowpoints or +p,i wouldnt want to be in front of it...........

Coronach
December 16, 2008, 10:37 PM
Reaching back a bit...I believe that there is a correlation between "[stops]" and deaths. You do not have to have a 100% match between 2 events for a correlation to be present. For example a 50% correlation would imply that 50% of Stops would be Deaths. A correlation is present but it is not 1:1You're right, of course. I overstated my case. The point remains, though, that they're not the same thing, which is what I was trying to say.

Mike

Mass-Diver
December 22, 2008, 12:18 PM
To resurrect this thread: has anyone ever seen anyone with a modified storm with a true pistol grip?

Is it possible (for a gunsmith or someone who knows what they are doing) to simply cut off the piece that connects the grip to the rear stock?

Coronach
December 22, 2008, 01:03 PM
I don't see why you couldn't. I'm just not sure why you would want to. I don't see the dingus getting in the way of much. While I agree that it serves no purpose besides satisfying stupid laws, it also doesn't really get in the way.

Mike

golden
December 22, 2008, 01:13 PM
I was considering a CX-4 for a home defense gun when I lived in CANADA. I tried a rental CX-4 at a range and liked it. It was very popular as a rental.
Then I tried an AR-15 in 9m.m. and found I preferred the AR. The handling and sights were much better on the AR-15.

For me, the slick forend made a repeatable grip difficult and I would add a red dot sight before I would use the CX-4 for defense.

Jim

MartyG
January 1, 2009, 10:16 PM
I bought my Storm on election night, figuring I might not be able to after Jan 20th. Familiar with all the reasons given, and was watching price go up, and availability go down every day. Face it, we buy what we want, based on emotion, then justify it with facts afterwards. I am very happy with mine, and consider it very suitable to home defense as I envision it.

CrankyOldGuy
January 1, 2009, 11:04 PM
Pistol caliber carbines for home defense, pro's and con's.

Pro: A long gun is more easily used, by lightly trained personnel, than a pistol.

Con: Pistol calibers are marginal "stoppers". Rifle calibers or shotguns are far better short range fire arms(defense range weapons)

Pro: A Pistol Caliber Carbine makes even sharp recoil cartridges like the .357 Magnum or .40S&W easily handled by slight-framed personnel.

Pro: The longer barrel reduces muzzle flash, a significant factor in night time defensive situations.

Pro: A Pistol Caliber Carbine is quieter than a rifle caliber long arm or a shotgun, a significant factor in an enclosed space.

Con: A Pistol Caliber Carbine is a bit less handy when "clearing the house" then a pistol. In a defensive situation you should not be "clearing", but you may have to "go get the kids".

Pro: A Pistol Caliber Carbine is fun and reasonably cheap to shoot, so you will probably practice more. (Huge "pro" here. Skill trumps caliber, capacity and tacticool accessories every time)

Con: A Pistol Caliber Carbine will probably not penetrate a body-armored BG.

My personal HD weapons are:
Winchester 1300 Defender with a Knoxx stock. (12 gauge #1 buck 6+1)
Colt 1911A1 (230gr +P JHP 8+1) for me
S&W Model 66 (157gr LWC 38 special) for wifey

But...I am a very experienced shooter and I practice with these firearms weekly. I can handle the 12 gauge recoil. (The Knoxx stock helps)

I will likely buy a pistol caliber carbine for plinking but my wife is getting a .410 saiga for her HD long gun. I agree with her and think it is a better choice than a pistol caliber carbine.

But these are HD choices. CCW defensive choices are another story. I carry a Glock 36 (6+1 .45ACP) or a Glock 26 (10+1 9mm) when "out and about". I prefer the .45 but the slightly shorter 9mm is an easier carry. I don't consider the 9x19 an adequate caliber for self defense in a pistol length barrel, but it's far better than a pointy stick.

A CX-4 in .45ACP is a reasonable HD carbine however you gain little from the extra barrel length in this caliber, one is 9mm is also good because the 9mm enjoys better velocity out of a carbine than a short pistol barrel, especially if you use +p ammunition. IMHO the .40 S&W is the best choice in a pistol caliber carbine. It also gains velocity from the longer barrel and the heavier, wider bullet (vs the 9x19mm) has more efficient terminal ballistics.

The Deer Hunter
January 1, 2009, 11:21 PM
Rifles arent just about range. 7.62x39 and 5.56x45 both hit really hard at close range, far harder than any pistol round.

Oh yeah? So does a 9mm. I have never been shot, or even shot at, or even shot near but once lead starts flying in your direction, things are going to look so damn peachy.

I don't see any reason why it is an inherently bad choice. Research it. If it looks good, buy it. Shoot it. A lot. If your satisfied that it will meet your criteria for self defense (presumably in your home), then stick with it.

A pistol is a good thing, but if you're anything like me (and probably most of the world) and can't aim a pistol to save your life, go with a carbine. Or a rifle. Or a shotgun.

SuperNaut
January 1, 2009, 11:23 PM
Wow, old thread!

So I'm reading the thread not realizing it was necro'd and I'm on post #10 thinking "damn, this guy is pretty smart..."

bonedust
January 2, 2009, 02:03 AM
Is it possible (for a gunsmith or someone who knows what they are doing) to simply cut off the piece that connects the grip to the rear stock?

its done quite frequently...we've done 4 or 5. i personally think it makes a funny looking gun, worse. but i do love the cx4 storm.

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/7946/immagine001yt5.jpg


and while i must admit i didnt read the whole thread, i see there are people clammering on about ballistic velocity of 9mm vs rifle calibers...when the real discussion, in a close quarter tactical setting, should be about wound profile and tissue cavitation.

and the 86% of people that survived pistol wounds were shot once. i dont know about the rest of you, but an intruder in my house will not see the benefit of that narrow sample statistic.

EdLaver
January 2, 2009, 03:56 AM
I would use my 9mm Storm in a home defense situation although a shotty is the primary. But I would still use the Storm if I had to. It came in handy when Hurricane Ike hit the Galveston/Houston areas. I had mine handy as it was light and rain didnt seem to affect its finish. A friend of mine had his Bushmaster M4 while guarding his home after the storm, (it took 13 days for our power to be restored and night times where very dark and eerie.) rain covered it and within 5 hours started developing light rusting. Had my Storm out in the rain and it didnt affect the finish at all.

I chose the 9mm over .40 and .45acp purely because of capacity. I've got 5 20rounders from Mec-gar:
One loaded with +p 124gr HSTs
Two loaded with 124 Golden Sabers
Two loaded with FMJs

In conclusion as other posters have mentioned, its all about shot placement with any firearm. If you decide to get one I suggest you get the top rail version and mount a red dot, the irons suck. I bored the rear iron sight wider and co-witnessed it with an Aimpoint. The thing is accurate dead-on out to 50 yards.

IdahoLT1
January 3, 2009, 12:03 AM
The CX4 storm makes a great choice for HD, especially if you already have a Beretta pistol to match. Thats what it was intended for, for LEO's to be able to use the magazines from their pistols in the rifle for added range and velocity. I load 90gr. Speer hollow points for ground squirrel shooting. With the 7.0 gr. of Power pistol, it throws the 90gr. bullet out the barrel at 1600fps, creating a muzzle energy of 511ft lbs. Ive reached out to ~70yds to hit ground squirrels with open sights. Most of them i shoot are 30-50yds away, which is a very very difficult task to replicate those shots off hand with a pistol.


Adding a red dot scope to the carbine rifle just makes it that much more efficient. it allows the shooter to leave both eyes open, yet be able to quickly and easily put the round on ithe intended target.

So, for civilians, if a zombie scenerio/post disaster were to play out, having a beretta pistol and CX4 carbine in the same caliber, would make a good choice as it will limit the weight of carrying different ammo or different magazines, while adding range and ease of use.

benEzra
January 3, 2009, 01:03 AM
Not silly at all. A 9mm carbine is superior to a 9mm handgun in every way but portability and concealability.

amd6547
January 3, 2009, 12:36 PM
I have always liked 9mm carbines for an HD option, even though my Beretta 92FS is my first line of defense.
I have owned a marlin camp carbine, a High Point 9mm carbine, and last, an UZI.
However, my HD carbine now, IS a carbine...an M1 carbine from CMP. Bargain price, hits harder than the 9mm, effective with SP's, and while I have shot every 9mm carbine I have owned out to 100 yards with pretty good results, My Inland carbine shoots fist sized groups to POA at the same distance. Great sights, excellent mag capacity (15 or 30 rounds). I am going to get an M1A1 folding repro stock for it to give shorter overall length, and it will be perfect.
The only thing the M1 carbine gives up to the 9mm carbine is cheap ammo and mag compatability with the pistol, both of which I am willing to exchange for what is essentially a hotter cartridge in an excellent platform.

30 cal slob
January 3, 2009, 01:24 PM
i don't particularly care for the storm carbine ergonomics, but it will most certainly get the job done for h.d.

4v50 Gary
January 3, 2009, 03:59 PM
It sure as heck beats using a pointy stick covered in poo.
Or shaking a clenched fist at someone. Any working gun is better than nothing. You don't necessarily have to kill your assailant. Sometimes brandishing your weapon is enough to cause an assailant to disengage.

That said, I'd rather have something bigger, but a CX-4 beats nothing.

oneeyenurse
January 6, 2009, 07:38 PM
Convinced me. I'm buying one...in .40 of course.

Beagle-zebub
January 6, 2009, 08:59 PM
and the 86% of people that survived pistol wounds were shot once. i dont know about the rest of you, but an intruder in my house will not see the benefit of that narrow sample statistic.

LOL, make it statistically significant.

MartyG
January 31, 2009, 10:06 PM
Last week I took my 9mm Beretta CX4 to the indoor 100 yd range. The rifle targets there are the size of a small pizza. At 100 yds, I had a hard time sighting it. I was lucky to hit the paper. Today I went back with a 30mm, 2X red dot. After a little sighting in, I routinely got my shots within a 4" group. No marksman, but if anything comes at me smaller than 4", I'll have to wait until the little gremlin gets closer! The red dot sight is quick and easy to pick up, sight and shoot. I recommend it, especially for those over-50 eyeballs like mine!

lipadj46
January 31, 2009, 10:08 PM
Wow I thought this thread was finally dead.

akm5151
December 8, 2009, 11:07 PM
I personally like the idea of being able to run pistol mags in a rifle. A rifle is more accurate, and have higher chance of hitting your target, and you can add a variety of red dots for even faster more accurate hitting. For example, our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan use the beretta M9 pistol, and would make sense to have one guy in the squad equipped with a full auto cx4 storm instead of MP5 so when everyone is down to pistols, one guy can lay some rounds down. Also, for Security Guards (Armed Response/Supervisors) who arn't allowed to have shotguns and .223's who ahve to sometimes go into buildings or houses after alarms go off to possibly confront an intruder. What is an intruder going to be more impressed with? A pistol or a carbine??? The Italians sometimes just do things right! :p

atlanticfire
December 8, 2009, 11:13 PM
It will be any second! The mods on here don't like old threads!
But I think hey, if someone searching the net found this it might be a good thing. . . . new members and stuff. . . .
Don't they make the CX whatever in .40 too?

Mike U.
December 8, 2009, 11:40 PM
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Hammerhead6814
December 8, 2009, 11:53 PM
THIS POST ENDS THIS DISCUSSION (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq4t5pQaMj8).

Thank you.

Enachos
December 18, 2009, 07:17 PM
My buddy has one. I handled it just 2 days ago but didn't shoot it. However, my buddy has nothing bad to say about it. It's very light and easy to hold.

The only thing is I didn't actually look at the sights on it considering he had a red dot sight on it.... that thing was sexy!

Grassman
December 18, 2009, 11:03 PM
Hammerhead wins!! I think that would stop an intruder.

JFrame
December 19, 2009, 02:48 PM
Hammerhead wins!! I think that would stop an intruder.



If not, it would clearly change his disposition... :)

.

Coronach
December 19, 2009, 04:21 PM
Crimeny. How many times has this thread been revived now? ;)

Mike

General Geoff
December 19, 2009, 04:23 PM
It was worth the resurrection for the smiley face video. :)

Coronach
December 19, 2009, 04:33 PM
No reason to close it, really. It's a question that will keep getting asked, I'm sure. And the smiley video is a hoot.

Mike

DCH
September 24, 2010, 01:19 AM
Yep, it's alive again...

New to THR and this thread actually got me to sign up/register!

I've been considering a mini14 in 5.56, or a cali legal AR for HD, when I realized Beretta offered a carbine in the CX4 9mm...

I was browsing around google image and flickr for some pics of different CX4's setup and variations when I came upon the pic of the modified (non-cali legal CX4 stock) variant on THR.

As a result, I decided to go with a stock CX4 in 9mm. Now, does anyone know where I can pick one up in the So.Calif area (LA, OC, SD counties)?

..or will I have to go directly thru BerettaUSA?

thanks
DCH
(another Beretta dude!)

DCH
October 7, 2010, 01:47 AM
Don't I feel stupid... I realized the CX4 is not california legal!

even tho'..
-it doesn't have a 'true' pistol grip
-avail. with 10 round mag that doesn't attach fwd of the trigger
-16.6" bbl
-non-extendable stock w/ spacers for OAL compliance
-semi-auto

thumbhole or not, it's still within the 'spirit' of compliance IMHO.

General Geoff
October 7, 2010, 02:15 AM
thumbhole or not, it's still within the 'spirit' of compliance IMHO.

Any notion of "spirit of the law" is thrown out the window when it comes to gun laws. What is the "spirit" of california's assault weapons ban, anyway? To prevent scary-looking weapons from being owned by law abiding citizens. I'd say it's working exactly as intended.

zhyla
October 7, 2010, 12:43 PM
thumbhole or not, it's still within the 'spirit' of compliance IMHO.

Thumbhole stocks are explicitly an evil feature in CA. There's no "spirit" question.

Double Naught Spy
October 7, 2010, 01:41 PM
THIS POST ENDS THIS DISCUSSION.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq4t5pQaMj8
Thank you.

Hey! That's my video! I was still working on learning to shoot the Storm and how to work the camera. That should have been with the iron (plastic) sights, so not horrible shooting, but all of the shots were supposed to be on the head.

ejfalvo
October 7, 2010, 05:20 PM
I purchased a CX4-45ACP specifically for HD. I keep it loaded with Speer Gold-Dot (3 mags on board). Its reliable, accurate and easy for myself and wife to shoot if necessary. The caliber matches the XD45C and the SW 625-3 I keep around the house.

I have zero issues with using it for HD.

nelsonal
October 7, 2010, 06:54 PM
Since this one is revived, why does it bother some people when threads are revived, and others (largely not on this forum) when new threads are started on topics previously covered? Most forums don't have very advanced robots.txt files, so they're fully indexed by google, which is topical rather than date based, and there's lots of old threads that are very high in google's responses, and I would guess bring a lot of new visitors to this and other forums.

It seems like if a person has useful information for the original person who asked a question even a couple of months or years later, that information may still have some value (to that person or to someone who comes later). Perhaps we need a method to reply without bringing a thread to the top of the list (that's enabled by default on old threads).

SuperNaut
October 7, 2010, 06:59 PM
It isn't really "problem" per se, it is more about netiquette. If you have something to add that hasn't been covered in an old thread then it definitely warrants a new topic. But, if it is essentially a repeat of what has already been said, or a fancy version of "+1" then what is the point?

Hammerhead6814
October 7, 2010, 09:15 PM
I am going to end this thread again. If this doesn't stop it then maybe it just needs closing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq4t5pQaMj8

There.

seal
October 7, 2010, 09:45 PM
close in home urban setting a hand gun caliber is comforting to me because i dont have to worry that i just passed a round through to my neighbors house and clipped him or his children. I have seen ak rounds melt cinder blocks and knock through bricks.

two to the center mass. Also your ears will ring but not on the level that firing a larger rifle round in your home will lol.

Boomie
October 7, 2010, 11:20 PM
If your budget and time are both limited, by a Mossburg 12 gauge shot gun with a mounted flashlight and a box of light load bird-shot shells.

Birdshot? Really (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm)?

Boomie
October 7, 2010, 11:26 PM
I guess I'm odd for using my 9mm Sterling for home defense. It points well, maneuvers well, does quick follow up shots and has been 100% reliable (at least for the 1000 or so rounds I've put through it so far) and I can keep my group in a 4" box @ 50 yards offhand with the irons. I love it but would rather have a Storm.

BTW, I have a 16" AR and a Remmy 870 - both are harder to maneuver through the house with. I'd still use them if I was barricaded in a room or something. In a prior life I had a 12.5" 870 which was the best of all.

dovedescending
October 8, 2010, 10:37 AM
I think I'd prefer a Storm or other PCC over a shotgun, simply because they're handier. I've never had teh opportunity to shoot a Storm, just to handle one a few times, and wow did it ever balance well. Pretty sure the maneuverability and soft recoil would go a long way towards making a BG's day go downhill.

CGRifleman
October 9, 2010, 06:38 PM
Shotgun, all the way. 9mm will actually go through more layers of drywall than reduced recoil buckshot. Not to mention the intimidation factor, because everyone knows what a 12ga shell being chambered sounds like, and a shotgun blast in a confined area has about the same effect as a flash-bang.

Double Naught Spy
October 9, 2010, 10:34 PM
I am going to end this thread again. If this doesn't stop it then maybe it just needs closing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq4t5pQaMj8

There.

Okay, you keep posting my video. How does it end the thread?

windsor311
October 10, 2010, 03:31 PM
If you've had the pleasure of shooting one of these rifles, you know how much fun they can be at the range. Lets face it....... if shooting the weapon equates to more range time and practicing shot placement, then it makes PERFECT SENSE to use it as a HD weapon does it not?

I had one of these in .40 and sold it last year. Funny thing is, I sold it to a guy who had one and sold it for another gun purchase. He really wanted to replace the missing link so he was thrilled with the one I sold him.

Now here we are a year later and guess what???? I'm purchasing another because I do miss bringing that handy rifle to the range and shooting the ammo (.40) that I have the most. I WILL be keeping this rifle next to the bed with 3 mags on-board, an M3 light on the bottom rail, and a red-dot up top.

I'll post a pic when I get it this week. For now, lets see some pics of your set-up of the CX4

M&PVolk
October 10, 2010, 07:58 PM
The CX seems like a fun gun and would be perfectly acceptable for home defense, but there are better options.

If you want a rifle for home defense, a .223 is ideal. Lots more punch than a 9mm, but less penetration through walls. The cost of ammo and the wide variety of platforms for the round just make it a great selection. Of course, the short barrel shotgun is a great choice as well.

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