adolph hitler gun-control quote ??


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MIL-DOT
October 2, 2006, 08:43 PM
i'm sure most of you have seen this quote that supposedly was made by hitler :

>" 1935 will go down in history ! For the first time,a civilized nation
has
>full gun registration ! Our streets will be safer,our police more
efficient
>and the world will follow our lead into the future!" Adolph Hitler

but then i'd recently read ( and i don't recall where,possibly here) that he never said this, that it was one of those inter-web urban myth type things.
as always, any help much appreciated

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Bruce333
October 2, 2006, 08:49 PM
http://www.saf.org/pub/rkba/general/BogusAntiGunQuotes.htm

and another, more indepth look:

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlergun.html

ETXhiker
October 2, 2006, 08:50 PM
Hmmm. For one thing, I don't think they did registration. Just went straight to outlawing civilian ownership.

James T Thomas
October 2, 2006, 09:09 PM
One of our US senators, I forget which one; years ago, had modeled some of the original gun registration laws here in our nation after the information gathered from the NAZI's during interviews at the Nuremburg trials.

hso
October 2, 2006, 09:12 PM
The "Hitler" Quote That Wouldn't Die: "1935 Will Go Down In History!"

"This year* will go down in history! For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"
---Falsely attributed to Adolf Hitler, "Abschied vom Hessenland!" ["Farewell to Hessia!"], ['Berlin Daily' (Loose English Translation)], April 15th, 1935, Page 3 Article 2, Einleitung Von Eberhard Beckmann [Introduction by Eberhard Beckmann].
This quotation, often seen without any date or citation at all, suffers from several credibility problems, the most significant of which is that the date given (*in alternate versions, the words "This year..." are replaced by "1935..." has no correlation with any legislative effort by the Nazis for gun registration, nor would there have been a need for the Nazis to pass such a law, since gun registration laws passed by the Weimar government were already in effect. The Nazi Weapons Law (or Waffengesetz) which further restricted the possession of militarily useful weapons and forbade trade in weapons without a government-issued license was passed on March 18, 1938.
The citation usually given for this quote is a jumbled mess, and has only three major clues from which to work. The first is the date, which does not correspond (even approximately) to a date on which Hitler made a public speech, and a check of the texts of Hitler's speeches does not reveal a quotation resembling this (which is easily understandable when you realize that "Hitler" is commenting on a non-existent law). The second clue is the newspaper reference, which if translated into German resembles the title of a newspaper called Berliner Tageblatt, and a check of the issue for that date reveals that the page and column references given are to the arts and culture page! No Hitler speech appears in the pages of Berliner Tageblatt on that date, or dates close to it, because there was no such speech to report.

Finally, the citation includes a proper name "Eberhard Beckmann," which is sometimes cited as "by Einleitung Von Eberhard Beckmann," which is an important clue itself, because it reveals that the citation was fabricated by someone who had so little knowledge of the German language that they were unaware that "Einleitung" isn't the fellow's first name! The only "Eberhard Beckmann" which has been uncovered thus far did indeed write introductions, but he was a journalist for a German broadcasting company after WWII, and he wrote several introductions to photography books, one of which was photos of the German state of Hesse (or Hessia), which may be the source of the curious phrase "Abschied vom Hessenland!" which appears in the citation. This quotation, however effective it may be as propaganda, is a fraud.

telomerase
October 2, 2006, 09:23 PM
Well, this is THR, so let's get the real story... someone please post a legit link to the real Nazi gun laws, and any applicable Hitler quotes.

lionking
October 2, 2006, 09:24 PM
if its false,then the American Rifleman magazine screwed up because a few years ago they printed that quote in the magazine.

CSA 357
October 2, 2006, 09:30 PM
well i thought clinton said it:rolleyes:

Ian
October 2, 2006, 09:39 PM
Here's one of the laws: http://www.jpfo.org/NaziLawEnglish.htm
And in the original German: http://www.jpfo.org/NaziLawGerman.htm

Tommygunn
October 3, 2006, 12:04 AM
Well, this is THR, so let's get the real story... someone please post a legit link to the real Nazi gun laws, and any applicable Hitler quotes.

"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms; history shows that all conquerers who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall."~~Adolf Hitler, From Edict of March 18, 1938
The above is found on page 149 of The Second Amendment Primer Copyright 1996 by Les Adams. Published by Odysseus Editions, Birmingham Alabama.

History Prof
October 3, 2006, 12:26 AM
This is *not* my area of expertise, so I refer you to bru333's link to straightdope.com. Assuming it is correct (and I trust it because it cites Clayton Cramer, someone whose scholarship I trust) the laws banning firearms pre-dated the Nazi rise to power, and were intended, in part, to disarm the Nazis themselves.

What can we glean from this? The Nazis had no respect for the law, and continuted to carry guns anyway.

THEREFORE, while the "Hitler" quote may be of no real value to us, the debate is, because it shows us that CRIMINALS DO NOT OBEY GUN LAWS.:what:

wuchak
October 3, 2006, 12:40 AM
Heinrich Himmler had this to say, "“Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA - ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the State”"

and this, " “The best political weapon is the weapon of terror. Cruelty commands respect. Men may hate us. But, we don't ask for their love; only for their fear.”

if you replace Germans, SS and SA with Americans, Police and Military you'll have the philosophy of US anti-gun crowd. I wonder how the average person who has been lead to lean towards the anti side by the popular media would feel if they were fully aware of the intellectual company they are keeping.

History Prof
October 3, 2006, 12:52 AM
wuchak,

Can you cite a source? I'm not being critical of your post - I'd love to be able to use these quotes. But without a proper citation they are meaningless.

ETA: that second quote sounds familiar, but sounds like something Geobbles would have said....

Double Naught Spy
October 3, 2006, 01:33 AM
if its false,then the American Rifleman magazine screwed up because a few years ago they printed that quote in the magazine.

It isn't like they haven't made biased mistakes in the past. AR is hardly a scholarly source.

wuchak
October 3, 2006, 01:57 AM
I looked for a source for the first Himmler quote and even though it appears everywhere I cannot find a place where the source is cited although one site gave the year as 1935. I did stumble accross this excellent list of quotes http://www.mega.nu/ampp/intro4.htmlwhere it was included. There are many excellent ones with sources cited but this isn't one of them.

Limeyfellow
October 3, 2006, 02:07 AM
Its strongly believed to be one of those madeup quotes like we have people beliving that waking the sleeping giant false quote from Pearl Harbor and Tora Tora Tora.

The common quotes from Hitler and Himmler are not mentioned in known sources and speeches and most likely made up by people who wanted to create a Godwin like argument to prove their case.

Skibane
October 3, 2006, 02:26 AM
omeone please post a legit link to the real Nazi gun laws, and any applicable Hitler quotes.

"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to permit the conquered Eastern peoples to have arms. History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so. Indeed I would go so far as to say that the underdog is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order." Adolf Hitler, April 11, 1942, quoted in Hitlers Tischegesprache Im Fuhrerhauptquartier 1941-1942. [Translation: Hitler's Table-Talk at the Fuhrer's Headquarters 1941-1942], Dr. Henry Picker, ed. (Athenaum-Verlag, Bonn, 1951)

American By Blood
October 3, 2006, 10:48 AM
Hmmm. For one thing, I don't think they did registration. Just went straight to outlawing civilian ownership.

Simply not true. The Hitler government actually loosened the gun laws compared to what they were during the Weimar period. What the Nazi regime outright banned was the selling of firearms by Jews. This was not, however, all that different from the law under during the Weimar period. During that time it was illegal for pawnbrokers to deal in guns. The pawn business in pre-WWII Germany was almost entirely Jewish. The pawnbroker/Jew distinction in the new law was a more explicit statement of the original intent of the statute. The NSDAP did not invent German anti-Semitism.

When the Allies finally conquered Germany and rounded up all privately owned weapons (including fencing blades) they were floored by the number of guns in civilian hands. The American and British soldiers had been taught to associate the keeping and bearing of arms with a political system (liberal democracy) instead of a culture (the Teutonic free warrior ideal). Keep in mind that Mauser used to advertise in Party periodicals. To whom were they advertising if private citizens could not own guns?

An interesting point is that, by law at least, Jews who were not among the conquered people of Poland, Russia, etc could own and even carry firearms. All a person required to do both was a single, easy to acquire, permit (too much regulation if you ask my American self). Jews were not legally barred from obtaining this license. If memory serves, the person who signed off on the slip was the local postmaster. If a Jew was on good terms with the post office and the boss wasn't a raving true believer anti-Semite he could carry a pistol throughout the Reich. Not a terribly common situation, but it did happen. Compare that policy to those of Illinois, New Jersey, and other anti-gun states to get an idea of just how far the grabbers have gotten.

The quote about not letting "the subjected people" bear arms should surprise no one (and actually, it's misattributed--he supposedly said that in 1942 over dinner). Germany was at war with the East at that point and nobody allows the people they conquer the means to resist. As I mentioned earlier, when our boys rolled into Berlin their order to the volk was (to paraphrase Dianne Feinstein) "Herr und Frau Deutschland, turn them all in."

I'm not defending the Hitler government in this post. I'm only trying to make the point that the antis in America, and even more so internationally, are worse than the Nazis on this issue. That should alarm anyone.

gunsmith
October 3, 2006, 10:59 AM
The associations of the National Revival, SA, SS and Stahlem,
give every responsible citizen theopportunity of campaigning with them.
Therefore anyone who does not belong to one of the above named organizations
and who unjustifiably nevertheless keeps his weapon...must be regarded as an enemy of the National Gov't will be bought to account without compunction and with utmost severity.

I got this from "The Second Amendment Primer"

sounds like Gen Clarkes "join the army to play with guns" quip.

Tommygunn
October 3, 2006, 11:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ETXhiker
Hmmm. For one thing, I don't think they did registration. Just went straight to outlawing civilian ownership.
* * *
Simply not true. The Hitler government actually loosened the gun laws compared to what they were during the Weimar period. What the Nazi regime outright banned was the selling of firearms by Jews. This was not, however, all that different from the law under during the Weimar period. During that time it was illegal for pawnbrokers to deal in guns. The pawn business in pre-WWII Germany was almost entirely Jewish.

If I recall the Nazis passed a law in 1938 that applied a "sports" test to ownership of firearms. This was copied by Senator Dodd of Ct. (the current Dodd's father) in 1968 that became the Gun Control Act of 1968, or something similar.

Some high ranked Nazi -- Maybe Himmler (?) is said to have stated that people who want to own guns should join the army. I can't find the exact quote, but it was to that effect. Maybe like an earlier Hitler quote, it''s apocrophyl.
The Nazis were NOT, however, friendly to gun rights as I recall. They may have been far too absorbed in fighting the allies and pursuing their rassenhygiena policies to effectively confiscate guns from fellow Germans, who they probably considered sympathetic and hardly a danger to the Reich as were dissidents and ... (supposedly) Jews.

American By Blood
October 3, 2006, 12:22 PM
The 1938 law was a liberalized (in the good sense) re-write of the 1928 Weimar law.

There was indeed some noise in there about about restricting "weapons of war" and all of that, but that was equivalent to our "destructive devices" regulations. That language covered things like mortars--K98s were fine for civilian ownership.

The 1938 law was far less restrictive than the 1928 bill. For instance, the Weimar law severely limited for the number of guns and rounds a person could own, required the registration of all firearms, and strictly regulated the transfer of weapons via inheritance. The Hitler law allowed for individuals to own as many weapons and cartridges as they could afford, required only the registration of pistols, and removed the regulations on transfers via inheritance. The list of differences between the two laws is long, but all of them relate to the Hitler law being less strict than the Weimar law.

The debate about whether or not the American gun control movement has its roots in Nazi policy cuts both ways. One point in "our" favor is that the 1938 law's requirements for the tracking of firearms sales look suspiciously like our "bound book" system. When American gun dealers were required to start keeping this sort of record is beyond the scope of my knowledge. Anyone care to comment? A point in "their" favor, however, is that the 1928 law allowed for various jurisdictions to pass more restrictive gun laws while the 1938 law gave the Lands and municipalities six months to get with the federal program. Was this the first historical example of preemption in regard to guns?

The Himmler quote is, for me at least, a non-issue regardless of its veracity. Himmler set policy for the SS and related organizations alone and his word was not law. He may have wanted total civilian disarmament, but he also sought to restore the feudal system and find the Spear Of Longinus and various artifacts from Atlantis. Himmler did his own thing, often to the chagrin of Hitler and the less out there party brass.

Tommygunn
October 3, 2006, 12:48 PM
American by Blood:
Thank you for your response. You appear very well informed on this matter; I wonder if you know of a good history book, or other source, which provides a good documentation of what was happening in those times (Weimar & Nazi Germany) with regards to gun laws and other matters? (Even if it's just a chapter or part of a larger book).
Thanks!

RobW
October 3, 2006, 06:40 PM
If it's available in English, try Joachim Fest: "Hitler". A 800+ page book.

MIL-DOT
October 3, 2006, 08:54 PM
again, many thanks for the numerous, informative responses.
i'm sure i'm not the only one to have found them interesting and enlightening.:)

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