And so IT Begins... The anti-gun Parade


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Werewolf
October 3, 2006, 11:27 AM
As a result of the recent rash of school shootings President Bush has put together a special commission consisting of LEO’s and School Officials to come up with a plan to prevent school shootings in the future. They are scheduled to meet in the White House today I believe.

FOX news this morning interviewed a neighbor of the nut job in the Amish School Shootings. They asked her about his "arsenal". She mentioned the pistol and said he had an AK-47. FOX added he had 600 rounds of ammo and 2 knives. Then FOX asked if there were a lot of hunters in the area and the neighbor responded in the affirmative and mentioned she just didn’t understand why anyone would need all that stuff. FOX wondered why anyone would need an AK47 to hunt (it was that moron Brian Kilmead who made that comment). The neighbor then stated with a genuine look of fear and worry on her face that she was glad HER husband wasn't a hunter. The whole interview made me sick!

If FOX is jumping on the anti bandwagon can the others be far behind?

And so the anti-gun save our children parade begins.

The real question though is how will it end?

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RNB65
October 3, 2006, 11:38 AM
According to the police reports last night he had a Springfield 9mm (XD I assume), a Browning 12ga shotty, and a bolt-action 30-06. Did they find an AK? He may have owned one, but I don't think he had it with him yesterday.

Manedwolf
October 3, 2006, 12:29 PM
NICKEL MINES, Penn. (Reuters) - The 32-year-old dairy truck driver who stormed a one-room school and killed five girls apparently chose the schoolhouse because it was an easy target rather than because he had a grudge against the Amish, police said.

S.P.E.C.T.R.E.
October 3, 2006, 12:38 PM
Well when you are slaughtering defenseless girls, a .22 pistol would work as well as an AK-47, so the "evil black rifle" factor is a moot point. The "neighbor's" husband also needs to grow a pair.

BHPshooter
October 3, 2006, 12:41 PM
The real question though is how will it end?

It will end with President Bush and his special group forming another alphabet-soup agency for school security. :barf:

Please, somebody tell me I'm wrong...
Wes

tenbase
October 3, 2006, 12:44 PM
From here (http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyID=2006-10-02T222506Z_01_N02363681_RTRUKOT_0_TEXT0.xml&pageNumber=1&imageid=&cap=&sz=13&WTModLoc=NewsArt-C1-ArticlePage1):

Advocates of wider gun controls argue that the availability of guns has made it easier for people to commit murder in schools.

"It is extremely easy whether you are a juvenile or a convicted felon or a domestic abuser to purchase a firearm legally or illegally," Peter Hamm of the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence told Reuters.

"We believe that there should be criminal background checks on every gun purchase in America bar none and limits on the number of firearms an individual can purchase at one time," he said.

All of which would have done nothing to prevent this tragedy, nor does it explain the utter lack of school shootings in the years before "gun control" became the knee-jerk response to all criminal acts.

Same s*** different day from the gun grabbers.

Crawlin
October 3, 2006, 12:46 PM
It will end with President Bush and his special group forming another alphabet-soup agency for school security.

Please, somebody tell me I'm wrong...
Wes

I hope thats all it is and there is no other "Bans" comming.

ID_shooting
October 3, 2006, 12:55 PM
I volunteer to head up the inevitable "alphabet soup" agency.

It should be called the ASS, or the Amercian School Safety Agency.

We will post a team of three armed federal agents in each public school. School staff can volunteer to train for and be armed as special deputys.

Our mission will be similar to the Air Marshals. Should trouble arise, we will step in and defend the children with our lives if needed. We will wear armor, carry M4 rifles with Glocks for sidearms. I guarentee a 90% drop in school shootings in the first year.

mustanger98
October 3, 2006, 01:00 PM
Ya'll may know this, but back in the days of the "wild west", schoolchildren went armed. They walked or rode horses through Indian country to get there... it might have been hostile Indians, outlaws, or just predatory animals. Now in light of the Amish school shooting and this last one in Colorado as well as so many other school shootings we've heard about over time, my opinion is that because of the anti-gun crowd kids are going to school in "Indian country" again, but the difference is they can't defend themselves with firearms for obvious reasons. I think the avenues for self-defense in schools need to be opened up, but I wouldn't advise anybody to hold their breath as long as we have the same old blissninnies pushing their same old agenda.

Note: In the Amish school shooting, the Amish are pacifists. I don't know if they'd ever fight back in a case like this. I don't know what they'd say or think if one of their people did defend themselves.

SuperNaut
October 3, 2006, 01:05 PM
Similar acts of violence will be identified as "Domestic Terrorism" and all known associates, sellers, gun-club buddies, speed-dial numbers, website members etc. will be "persons of interest" and with the recent elimination of habeus corpus the persons of interest will look forward to many enjoyable hours of interrogation, physical persuasion, no rights, no representation, no charges, no visitation, no trial, and a strong chance of becoming "disappeared."

It's for the children's safety, the greater good and the survival of the Homeland.

RNB65
October 3, 2006, 01:55 PM
I don't think the anti-gunners are going to get much mileage out of this tragedy. This crime was so evil and the victims so vulnerable, reasonable folks are going to recognize that a knife or claw hammer would have been just as effective. The Brady Bunch is mostly going to be preaching to the choir on this one.

That being said, I would like to encourage anyone not a member of the NRA to consider joining. The NRA isn't perfect and I don't agree with every position they take, but it is the best defender of the RKBA we have.

Master Blaster
October 3, 2006, 02:11 PM
Fox news the fair balanced rightwing tool of the conservatives????

My fox news in Philadelphia dedicated a 1/2 hour of last nights news cast to a complete antigun diatribe.

They even featured a guy who was arrested for having an arsenal in Drexel Hill, unfortunately i missed what actual crime he committed other than having a bunch of busy body 85 year old neighbors (correction he was arrested for DUI while carrying with a permit.)

Apparently the police arrested him and raided his house before, but a Judge ordered the police to give him back his arsenal, since he had a concealed carry permit, all the guns were legally purchased, and in legal configuration, and he was not a felon and hadn't committed a crime of any type.

The Drexel hill police chief was unhappy that a judge ordered his firearms returned, imagine that. The police chief went on to say that they would have to lock him up before this person got his guns back this time (police knew no crime was committed here), and if a judge ordered it he would refuse to return them.

So maybe they got a warrant based on a neighbor saying he was making bombs, or maybe it was a 90 year old neighbor saying he was shooting on his porch (they interviewed her).

They also displayed his gun collection (some milsurps handguns and evil semiauto rifles) tossed in a big pile after they stomped on them a bit. And his "bomb making materials" which consisted of 4 fumigation smoke bombs (like you put down a gopher hole), labeled as such, a switch box of some kind, some wire, and some rocket engine fuse.

Fox showed him and his whole family being hauled off in a paddy wagon. He yelled the bomb making charge was false as he his wife and another were tossed in theback of a paddy wagon handcuffed together.

This was after the 15 minutes on the school shooting.

Fox 29 in Philadelphia is the MOST LIBERAL ANTIGUN news station in the USA.

Even CBS CNN or NBC can't come close to the anti self defense rants this station puts out.

Master Blaster
October 3, 2006, 02:19 PM
http://www.myfoxphilly.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=1067958&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=3.2.1

Police: Man Had Guns and Bomb-Making Materials Last Edited: Monday, 02 Oct 2006, 6:58 PM EDT
Created: Monday, 02 Oct 2006, 6:58 PM EDT

Police say they also recovered blasting caps, detonators, empty grenades, liquid mercury and a manual on how to make bombs.
A Drexel Hill man is being held on a million dollars cash bail after police found an arsenal of weapons and bomb-making materials in his home. The discovery came after 47-year old Charles Connor was arrested on D.U.I. charges while carrying a gun. Police raided the home and say they found 54 guns, including AK-47s, Uzi's, and other military-style sniper rifles. Conner has a permit to carry firearms even though police went to his home last September for reports of a “barricaded, depressed, suicidal man.” Though the guns were taken away, a judge later ordered police to return them. Police are going through Conner's computer trying to learn what he planned to do with the guns and bomb-making materials

The_Shootist
October 3, 2006, 02:40 PM
Can you spell KATRINA? Sure ya can !

Thats the reason i got MY WASR10 - so that the next "bug-out" from the coast I had a bit more firepower than my G19/SP101 combo. :p

Katrina will serve for a LONG time as a pro-gun argument!

the pistolero
October 3, 2006, 02:41 PM
I am not surprised, after something I saw recently vis-a-vis Rupert Murdoch, the owner of Fox News, and the Dunblane massacre. From the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep And Bear Arms web site (http://www.ccrkba.org/pub/rkba/articles/general/GRPC2000All.htm):

“In March 1996, a well-known child abuser walked into a primary school in Dunblane, Scotland, and shot 15 children and a teacher before turning the gun on himself. His name was Thomas Hamilton,” somberly related Stuart Andrews, an independent firearms consultant from England, on the incident that lead to the virtual ban on firearms ownership in the United Kingdom....

“There was certainly a sense of national grief, but Hamilton was dead and the media looked around for someone to blame. They picked the instrument not the man, and from then on we gunowners saw an inevitable deterioration of our status as responsible law-abiding citizens,” Andrews said.

Rupert Murdoch, explained Andrews, took it upon himself to run the nation’s most notorious anti-gun campaign in the country’s history. As he owned nearly every newspaper in the United Kingdom, Murdoch filled the pages of his trash rags with hired quotes from every “hack ex-cop, every failed psychologist and any idiot he could find.”
...Gunowners were first described in the press as gun enthusiasts, then gun fanatics, gun freaks and finally as gun sickos.

I wouldn't be surprised if he tries the same with Fox in this country, but I guess we'll see what happens.

Wes Janson
October 3, 2006, 03:06 PM
Look around your house and see what could be used against you.

Own a few packs of mil-surp ammo for your *insert surplus rifle here*? Or a brick or two of .22 LR? Bingo, you've got an "arsenal" and a "stockpile of ammunition".

Ever play with Estes rockets? Shoot off fireworks? Lord help you, own and use a blackpowder mortar? You can guess what those are going to get you labeled as.

The list keeps on going, because of the simple fact that most people are too lazy or stupid to think about the truth of the matter when they start talking about someone's "arsenal" of dangerous things found by the police. For non-shooters, 600 rounds of ammunition seems like alot. By my standards, it's the amount I'd like to be maintaining, in each of the calibers I shoot. By the standards of some people I know, 600 rounds is a joke-it's what they keep loaded in mags at any time, while the other 19/20ths of their ammo is stored safely.

tenbase
October 3, 2006, 03:09 PM
Fox 29 in Philadelphia is the MOST LIBERAL ANTIGUN news station in the USA.

just a quick note, fox broadcasting network (and their affiliate stations) and fox cable news network are two different things...part of the same fox entertainment company, but separate corporate divisions.

sm
October 3, 2006, 03:13 PM
My feelings-

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=225468

tellner
October 3, 2006, 03:18 PM
So far it's all predictable from the knee-jerk calls for more gun control to the reflexive responses. Both choirs have been thoroughly preached at.

These things do seem to come in clusters. Nobody knows exactly why. My suspicion is that there is a certain number of people who are at risk for doing this sort of thing. The publicity and excitement surrounding the event and the copycat urge, not to mention the 15 minutes of usually posthumous fame, are enough to convince a few of the potentials to take action.

Still, schools are statistically safer than they've almost ever been. It's just that the perception is skewed by the nature of infotainment journalism.

And no, I don't think arming school children is a good idea.

pharmer
October 3, 2006, 03:28 PM
Gun control is already underway. Anyone who thought GWB was pro 2ndA is mistaken. Alphabet agencies ATFE in particular,are enforcing laws "already on the books". Shutting down FFL's one at a time without regard to criminal intent. Used abbreviations on 4473's for the last 20 years? Each one will cost you $1k. Own a gunshop (FFL) and have personal guns not in your bound book. Those are "lost or unaccounted for". All this by the party that gave us Ronald Reagan (machinegun ban'86). Joe

Smurfslayer
October 3, 2006, 03:46 PM
I volunteer to head up the inevitable "alphabet soup" agency.

It should be called the ASS, or the Amercian School Safety Agency

So, let me get this straight, you are going to head up A.S.S. ? :neener:

sm
October 3, 2006, 03:48 PM
And no, I don't think arming school children is a good idea.

I respectfully disagree.

Arming in the context of allowing human beings , no matter age or size , to be armed with knowledge.

Society has dumbed-down free thinking , and done everything from banning books, to you name it - so human being , even kids, are not allowed to think for themselves.

Knives. We not only took knives to school when I was a "kid" we were armed with the knowledge of reponsible ownership and use of knives. Good grief! I mean a kid may use a knife blade to get a door open, to run from evil!

We had a door get stuck during a fire drill, we used our knives, to get door unstuck from a paint job. Just a drill mind you - but fire is Evil, and if there had been a real fire, using knives to get out and to safety would have worked.

"Armed" with knowledge and having knives - is good, IMO. In my day, one was encourgaged to think , and to think outside the box. One was encourgaged to ask questions, and disagree in a civil manner.

Today "get in line citizen - gubmint going to take care of you".

Armed with knowledge, training, reponsible up-bringing - we took guns to school, we hunted before and after class. We learned metal and woodworking in shop class with guns...

...and these times were hectic, with a war going on, protests, and all.


I have no problem with a student having a firearm, on campus. Even under age 21, that commutes, has a part time job, has to get to and fro. Not one bit do I mind. IF that Kid/Student/ Minor has car trouble, having a gun in the trunk is only smart IMO.

Beats having a daughter raped and left for dead.

Armed is a deterrent, armed with knowledge, tools, and mindset - humans of any size , of any age can better survive Evil.

I am fed up with folks being denied of being armed with anything...

I mean a kid cannot have scissors in school, let me tell what scissors can do to save a life - cut someone out of a seat belt as the vehicle is on fire.

NO gun control -armed the populace and I do not care how big a human they are, or what age.

I do not care what these folks are armed with - let them be armed with something!

Put it this way , I know two 16 y/o s that have a gun in the trunk, it is there in the event car trouble hits to and fro, and these gals can shoot those pistols. They have cell phones and have practiced and been taught what to do. One ruined a wheel on her car, making it to a fire station with a flat. She was "armed" with the knowledge and training to get to a safe place. She was safe, and got assistance. A new wheel was bought. One cannot undo rape or whatever else that might have happened if she stayed where the flat first went flat.

That to me is being "armed" and I support everyone being armed - even if only a "kid" and all they have is knowledge, and little SAK.

Cut rope, jimmie a door open, take a window pane out, anything...I support it.

Smurfslayer
October 3, 2006, 03:49 PM
Maybe we should take the time normally associated with posting here to contact our elected delegation in Congress so the pro-gun folks get a seat at the table to point out that schools are currently soft targets where guns are prohibited for the citizens by law, rule, policy or otherwise.

Dr.Rob
October 3, 2006, 03:59 PM
Gov. of PA this morning : THIS IS NOT A GUN CONTROL ISSUE.

He also said it would be 'disingenuous' of the anti-gun lobby to latch itself to this tradgedy, and he's an admitted anti.

Go figure.

statelineblues
October 3, 2006, 04:23 PM
Ed Rendell (PA Gov) knows where and when to pick his battles - he tries to use this tragedy and the Repubs will bring up all the years he was mayor of Philly and did nothing about the crime rate....

K-Romulus
October 3, 2006, 04:34 PM
The New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/03/opinion/03tue4.html

October 3, 2006
Editorial
Three School Shootings

No one will rise up to defend a man who walks into an Amish school, lines young girls up against a blackboard, ties up their feet, and then kills them before killing himself. But a surprising number of people will inevitably rise up to defend his guns, to call the man guilty but his weapons innocent.

When Charles Roberts snapped, the tools lay ready to hand. It is not clear what led him to seek out a quiet country school in Lancaster County, Pa., but it is possible he chose it because he knew that it belonged to a trusting, insular community, where there would be no one to stop him from entering with a shotgun, a rifle and an automatic pistol.

This is the third school shooting in a week. What will stick in almost everyone’s minds is the gross disparity between Mr. Roberts’s murderous intentions and the bucolic peacefulness of an Amish school in early October. But this killing is no different from the ones that took place in Wisconsin and Colorado recently.

The weapons were the same, and so was the conflict between the hideous assault of a damaged mind and the atmosphere of openness and trust that makes education possible. There are no simple solutions to this conflict. It is neither possible nor tolerable to secure every school or guard every child. Nor is it possible or politically tolerable to keep tabs on every gun. But in these killings we see an open society threatened by the ubiquity of its weapons, in which one kind of freedom is allowed to trump all others. Most gun owners are respectable, law-abiding citizens. But that is no reason to acquit the guns.

And the WashPost:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/02/AR2006100201197.html

Common Tragedy and Culprits
Shootings at an Amish school again point up the problem with guns.

Tuesday, October 3, 2006; A16

A school shooting is, by definition, obscene, yet there is a special horror to the tragedy in Nickel Mines, Pa. Perhaps it is because the setting, a picturesque community in Lancaster County, was so peaceful. Or that the target was a one-room Amish school amid fields of green. Or that the victims were young girls. Yes, there are unique features that make yesterday's attack a singular tragedy. There is, however, one aspect that makes it shamefully commonplace -- guns.

The 32-year-old man who walked into the Georgetown Amish School in a rural area about 60 miles west of Philadelphia had, authorities said, armed himself with a shotgun, a rifle and a semiautomatic handgun. After releasing all the boys and some women, the gunman barricaded the doors with boards and, having bound the feet of his victims, shot to death three girls before killing himself. Eight others were critically wounded; one of the wounded later died. "This is the last place on Earth that something like this would happen," Raymond Bial, author of books on the Amish, told Bloomberg News, as if being pacifist guarantees protection from the world.

Yesterday marked the third time in less than a week that a school was the site of a fatal shooting. In Colorado, on Sept. 27, a man armed with two handguns sexually assaulted some of the six girls he held hostage before killing one of them and himself. In Wisconsin, just two days later, a 15-year-old student fatally shot a principal. Like yesterday's shootings, each incident was tragic and certainly each had unique circumstances, but all -- including near-tragedies in Florida, North Carolina and Nevada that barely made headlines -- shared the fact of the far-too-easy availability of guns.

At this early stage, it is not known what drove Charles Carl Roberts IV to yesterday's rampage or whether it could have been prevented. Indeed, there are those who will argue that nothing -- least of all laws controlling guns -- can stop a madman. That doesn't mean, though, that we shouldn't try. Sadly, rather than making it harder for the wrong people to get guns, some in Congress are seeking to make it easier. Witness the recent vote by the House of Representatives to make it more difficult for authorities to crack down on bad gun shops. Thankfully, the Senate didn't have time to take up that measure.

Our sympathies go to the people of Nickel Mines. We hope that the singular calamity that befell this community will wake up the nation to do something about the madness it can control.

At least the post got the "semi-auto" thing right, as opposed to the Times.

Stauble
October 3, 2006, 04:40 PM
Ya'll may know this, but back in the days of the "wild west", schoolchildren went armed. They walked or rode horses through Indian country to get there... it might have been hostile Indians, outlaws, or just predatory animals. Now in light of the Amish school shooting and this last one in Colorado as well as so many other school shootings we've heard about over time, my opinion is that because of the anti-gun crowd kids are going to school in "Indian country" again, but the difference is they can't defend themselves with firearms for obvious reasons. I think the avenues for self-defense in schools need to be opened up, but I wouldn't advise anybody to hold their breath as long as we have the same old blissninnies pushing their same old agenda.


perhaps a better solution is to let CCW holding teachers to be able to carry in the classrooms.

Geronimo45
October 3, 2006, 04:44 PM
Everybody knows that you keep the guns out of the hands of criminals by keeping them out of the hands of law-abiding citizens. See the paradise formerly known as Britain.
These papers are saying that gun control wouldn't do a damn thing to protect these kids, but we should do it anyway, so the antis can feel better.

vynx
October 3, 2006, 04:56 PM
Oh my GOD a DAIRY TRUCK !!!

It wasn't the inanimate object firearms that caused it

It was the inanimate object Dairy Truck - think about it - he sat in that truck for HOURS 5 days a week! He spent many more HOURs with the truck than with his guns! It must be the evil influence of the DAIRY TRUCK that took over his mind and soul (because we all know that in the 21st century America Humans are no longer responsible for their actions only inanimate objects and corporate deep pockets can manifest evil- all together now baaaah, baaaah, baaaah).

We must start a campaign to outlaw DAIRY TRUCKS! If even one child is saved from the evil of DAIRY TRUCKS it will be worth it to never have dairy products again. ALso, PETA knows that diary producers torture cows! So its the DAIRY Products and their evil cohorts in crime the DAIRY TRUCKS that must be banished from society!

First we outlaw them then we eliminate all reference to dairy trucks and products from the history books, then we bury our heads in the sand (or up our axxes) and bleat , baaah , baaah, baaaah, all will be taken care of.

Problem solved please contact your local and federal politicians.

bluecowdawg
October 3, 2006, 04:59 PM
school shootings.Just like you cant stop burglars or car jackers, no matter how much security you have in or around yer home if some nutbag wants to break in bad enough and steal yer belongings he /she will find a way around yer defenses.

bigun15
October 3, 2006, 05:09 PM
And no, I don't think arming school children is a good idea.

Why can you arm yourself but I can't arm myself?

svtruth
October 3, 2006, 05:22 PM
The local talk show hostess this afternoon asked if keeping schools gun free zones was just inviting this sort of incident.
And, K-Rom, I can't ever remember a call for automobile restriction after a hit and run fatality.

nplant
October 3, 2006, 05:40 PM
I hate to take an angry tone in this time of heartache for so many, but here's my real, honest reaction to all of the recent school shootings (what are we up to, about 5 in 3-4 weeks, if we count the Toronto, ON shooting?).

You want to stop attacks on schools tomorrow? These school shootings can be stopped instantaneously, if the people in a position to do something about it would simply REMOVE THE NO-WEAPONS RESTRICTION. This isn't something difficult to comprehend. The burden of guilt should be upon the shoulders of those who allow this environment to be so under-protected. Even in "normal" public places there's a half-a-chance that a citizen will be carrying. Not in a school zone. In a McDonald's, there's a chance that someone will have a knife, gun, pepper spray, a board with a nail in it... not in a school zone.

Each of us should write, call, or email our representatives, and express our collective outrage that this scenario should even allowed to present itself. And if our representatives don't respond, then, by God, we should vote them into retirement from office.

My thoughts are with the families and the victims, and the communities in which these tradgedies were carried out. Let's take our time to remember the innocents that were removed from our lives, but let's not waste any time in making sure that more will not follow.

50caliber123
October 3, 2006, 05:42 PM
This will be used against us gun owners whether we do something about it or not. The anti's will probably use the school shootings to push a bill through congress further restricting civilian gun ownership. You can bet on an AWB II or equivalent within a year. All I know is stock up on ammo, magazines, and firearms now, before you can't get them later.

Picture a restriction not just on certain kinds of guns, but how much ammunition and how many magazines, as well as how many firearms one household can be in possession of. That's what I see happening.

jerkyman45
October 3, 2006, 05:49 PM
I'm a senior in high school, and they just installed a massive new surveillence system of cameras, we have a rent-a-cop, picture IDs, and lockdown drills. This string of shootings has made me wonder how safe the school is and the conclusion I've come to is not very. The Lock Down drills call for the teacher to lock the door and everyone to huddle in a corner with the lights off, this serves to bunch everyone together and makes us an even easier target. Cameras do nothing to protect us, and the rental cop is a 70+ year old guy who is unarmed. Students have no ability to defend themselves thanks to zero tolerence, and our schools are made even more unsafe by the Gun Free Zone laws. Schools are defenseless, its a fact. What we need is CCW teachers and most importantly, practical emergency EVACUATION plans in the event of a shooting or similar event.

Ash
October 3, 2006, 05:50 PM
Every AWB or restriction has been pushed through a Democratic Congress, and NEVER a Republican Congress. You suppose this next election is a wee bit important??? The problem is, the Amish are pacifists, so CCW would have done very bit as much good as another gun law. This could not be prevented by any reasonable rule of law. The man was an evil man who got better than he deserved.

Yet, the anti's are of course going to, like Jessie Jackson wiping the blood of MLK Jr. on his sweater, wipe the blood of the innocents on their faces and march forward into battle. The truth does not matter, but then it never has.

Ash

RobW
October 3, 2006, 07:18 PM
It is absolutely hopeless. You can't argue with liberals.

Why is it that liberals grow and flourish only in big cities?

Liberalism is not a philosophy but a MENTAL ILLNESS.

Henry Bowman
October 3, 2006, 07:45 PM
I'm a senior in high school, and they just installed a massive new surveillence system of cameras, we have a rent-a-cop, picture IDs, and lockdown drills. This string of shootings has made me wonder how safe the school is and the conclusion I've come to is not very. The Lock Down drills call for the teacher to lock the door and everyone to huddle in a corner with the lights off, this serves to bunch everyone together and makes us an even easier target. Cameras do nothing to protect us, and the rental cop is a 70+ year old guy who is unarmed. Students have no ability to defend themselves thanks to zero tolerence, and our schools are made even more unsafe by the Gun Free Zone laws. Schools are defenseless, its a fact. What we need is CCW teachers and most importantly, practical emergency EVACUATION plans in the event of a shooting or similar event.Obviously, you "get it." Please multiply your wisdom by sharing it with your peers. Please.

mustanger98
October 3, 2006, 08:43 PM
perhaps a better solution is to let CCW holding teachers to be able to carry in the classrooms.

I think having armed CCWing teachers in class is a good idea. Nowhere did I opine that arming students is always a good idea in this day and time with the lack of parenting and gun safety training as well as the decline in common sense. However, if you look at LawDog's blog and the comments to his most recent articles, a student may be armed with knowledge and mindset as sm was talking about. Mindset is the important part... the will to survive and the idea to use whatever tools/weapons as they present themselves under conditions which necessitate their use. You don't have to have a firearm to be armed to the teeth with tools that don't require a CCW permit.

zoom6zoom
October 3, 2006, 09:14 PM
And the grieving parent asked, "Dear Lord, how could you have let this tragedy happen once again?"

And God said, "How could I stop it? They don't let me in the schools anymore."

Lone_Gunman
October 3, 2006, 09:39 PM
I am worried that this summit Bush is planning will decide that we need a new AWB. We already know Bush supports it, and after the November elections, he would have no political reason not to push for it.

If he has the opportunity to create a legacy for himself at the expense of the Constitution, I believe he would do it.

Pilgrim
October 3, 2006, 10:03 PM
Cameras do nothing to protect us, and the rental cop is a 70+ year old guy who is unarmed.
I'm sixty years old and reasonably fit. I would gladly donate a day a week to patrol the local school armed with an AR-15 and 1911 pistol.

Pilgrim

FTF
October 3, 2006, 10:17 PM
I think I'm of the camp who is actually quite optimistic as far as the implications on the 2a.

I work with a lot of bleeding hearts and people who love to play the blame game on everything almost always totally ignoring the problem. Not a one blamed guns. Almost to a T, they said that the situation was unavoidable... that no law would have stopped that man. He knew what he was going to do, and whether or not he had guns wouldn't have even mattered.

One said that maintenance men should carry handguns. Hows that for an opinion lol.

Everyone who asked my opinion on the matter heard my spiel about gun-free zones and how criminals and those who seek attention know that they are soft targets. I brought up how I cannot bring my pistol to college, even though I have a permit. So, basically, unless there IS a cop there, the school is defenseless against anyone who has the determination, crazy mindset and lack of remorse needed to carry out such a crime. I told them that law-abiding, responsible citizens should be allowed to carry everywhere, including schools.

A few of them agreed. I was amazed.

Maybe this will swing some people around to our side...

Too bad for those kids though. God, who the hell picks on the AMISH???? What an evil man.

ID_shooting
October 3, 2006, 10:25 PM
Quote:
I volunteer to head up the inevitable "alphabet soup" agency.

It should be called the ASS, or the Amercian School Safety Agency


So, let me get this straight, you are going to head up A.S.S. ?

Most Certainly!

My official title in A.S.S. will be Head Officer of Learning & Education.

It will be the perfect agency to secure our schools.

mdao
October 3, 2006, 11:33 PM
While I think that allowing carry in school would be a very good thing, I don't think it would change much in respects to school shootings. Schools are not just soft targets because the people inside are disarmed, they're soft targets because the possible responder to possible hostage ratio is very low. This isn't Israel, and few school faculty/staff members have the right mindset even if they were armed. Unless sm's idea is implemented and everyone, including children, in the school is armed, allowing carry in schools won't change this.

My idea? Keep a locked rack of Tasers on every classroom wall. In case of emergency, racks open, tasers fall out, students pick them up and wait in the corner for someone to come in...

the 22 junkie
October 3, 2006, 11:51 PM
Quote:
And no, I don't think arming school children is a good idea.

Why can you arm yourself but I can't arm myself?

Rock on man, I;m with you. Though coming to think of it, I wouldn't trust half the kids in HISD with ruuber bats, let alone guns. :uhoh:

Wes Janson
October 4, 2006, 02:15 AM
My idea? Keep a locked rack of Tasers on every classroom wall. In case of emergency, racks open, tasers fall out, students pick them up and wait in the corner for someone to come in...

Great idea..until you have a false alarm (anything that is electronic will be guaranteed to have false alarms upon installation and at random intervals ever after). You just know there are going to be kids tempted to taser each other, and it would turn into a mind-boggling mess.

sm
October 4, 2006, 02:36 AM
I respectfully disagree.

Again for the record, I am single , I have no kids, and I am an older returning college student. State law says no guns on campus where I am.

I am responsible for ME.
I am responsible for passing on as passed was to me.

I am NOT going to pass forward to students, of any grade or age - they are to give up being "armed", they are to give up liberties for the sake of freedoms, they are to submit to any evil.

I will NOT , I do not care if they dress different than I, if they listen to music different than I, if they read books I do not care for.

It is MY responsiblity to carry myself and to attract by example what responsibilty is, and how relates to personal responsiblity to safety.

Media, Gun Control , Politicians and School boards use argruements that "kids are not able to take care of themselves" , or "kids act so dumb and stupid, how can we trust them to drive cars at 16, hunt with guns, bring knives to school..."

Not me. I never have, never will.

I cannot CCW on my campus - it does notmean I am not armed. Too many folks put way too much stock on Hardware, and not Software.

Well I am fed up with Tryanny not only brainwashing folks, including students of any grade or age, in regard to Hardware [guns, knives, scissors] Tyranny is also brainwashing folks, students of any grade or age in regard to Software.

Surveillance cameras, metal detectors and all this other crap to brainswash Hardware and Software away from human beings, that have human rights.

I showed a kid age 8, and her mom a college classmate "being armed" with a #2 pencil. We talked about everything in a classroom, hallway, restroom..."being armed with the brain, means anything can be a defensive tool"

Books have been banned trying to kill freethinking, this "software". Well grab that liberal pc of garbage book they make you read, use the corner and go for the Adam's Apple.

"Oh but I cannot have my Ultimate Blaster and SuperDuper knife". Poor thang...you have invested in Hardware, are just as disarmed as a 3 year old that wets pants in daycare then.

At least a 3 year old has the gumption to beat a bug, a spider , a worm with a coloring book if "in fear".

At least a "girl" of 15 years of age will use a lamp, a shoe, a magazine, Combo lock off a locker...to stop an immediate threat.

Oh yeah, I am totally fed up with people passing forward "give up". Be they liberals, gun owners with Ultimate Blasters, parents not "parenting" or adults not "adult-ing".

I can pass forward to HS student, with a "biker chain" attached to his wallet, to choke the life out an attacker in HS if need be using that "chain". He does not like Bob Seger, I have no idea what he was listening to. He has some green highlights and piercings, I have a mustache. I drive a truck , he drives a riceburner.

"Thanks dude, its all good. I'll sharpen a #2 pencil or two, and keep one in back pocket, practice that chain idea too...".


I broke a vehicle antenna off a vehice to defend myself against muliple threats once. I was on property that the statues say I cannot CCW.

I may not of had my CCW, I was still armed. My brain goes where I go. Evil disguised as Tryanny will never have my brain.

bigun15
October 4, 2006, 02:50 AM
So what are some improvised weapons a level headed student could use? I don't like going to school with all the shootings that have been going on recently and I know better than to think "it won't happen here." All I would need would be something to get me to my car alive. I've got it figured out from there.

Redneck with a 40
October 4, 2006, 03:09 AM
Here's a simple solution to the school shooting problems we are currently facing....1) REPEAL THE GUN FREE SCHOOL ZONES ACT! THIS LAW IS IDIOTIC, MIGHT AS WELL PAINT A TARGET ON SCHOOLS.
2) ALLOW SCHOOL OFFICIALS/TEACHERS THE OPTION OF BEING ARMED, EMPHASIZE FIREARMS TRAINING COURSES.
3) WE NEED TO DEAL WITH THE SOCIAL/CULTURAL PROBLEMS THAT ARE CAUSING THESE TEENAGERS AND ADULTS TO BECOME DERANGED LUNATICS. I BELIEVE THE BREAKDOWN OF THE FAMILY UNIT PLAYS A LARGE PART IN THIS PROBLEM.
4) GUNS ARE JUST TOOLS, INANIMATE OBJECTS, IT IS STUPID TO BLAME THE TOOL, INSTEAD OF DEALING WITH THE ROOT MENTAL CAUSES.

As a side note, if the Dem's win Congress in November and they start talking about another assault weapons ban, I am going to load up on high cap mags, I might even go ahead and buy that AK-47 I've been eyeing for awhile.:D

mustanger98
October 4, 2006, 03:26 AM
So what are some improvised weapons a level headed student could use? I don't like going to school with all the shootings that have been going on recently and I know better than to think "it won't happen here." All I would need would be something to get me to my car alive. I've got it figured out from there.

I sometimes tell folks the school I went to was so rough the alma mater was "High Noon".

I was aquainted with this one guy... I was in the 9th grade and he was a couple of years older- he was taking a class in drafting or mechanical drawing... anyway, he was having trouble with bullies too. He used that little plastic notebook pocket... fixed it so the pointy end of his compass stuck out. From what I understand, he actually stuck somebody with it once. I don't know what damage it did. While I assume not much damage, from what I heard, that guy left him alone after that, but I had no word on any of the others.

I was in a vocational ag class that year... just about the whole room was covered up in weapons, but the bullies there knew that too and cornered that market in a hurry. Those guys carried knives... well, so did I... knives wasn't the problem. If those guys hadn't been a problem, I wouldn't have been threatened whether by their knives or by the tools laying around the room when those implements were in their hands.

You do know your car is a weapon too, don't you?

mdao
October 4, 2006, 03:35 AM
So what are some improvised weapons a level headed student could use? I don't like going to school with all the shootings that have been going on recently and I know better than to think "it won't happen here." All I would need would be something to get me to my car alive. I've got it figured out from there.


Go here for ideas. (http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2006/10/meditations-on-combat-mindset.html)

I picked the braided belt and a hefty combo lock from high school through college.

Full book bags can also be effective weapons, as can metal rulers, pencils, small bags filled with change, the list is endless.

Zen21Tao
October 4, 2006, 06:04 AM
According to the police reports last night he had a Springfield 9mm (XD I assume), a Browning 12ga shotty, and a bolt-action 30-06. Did they find an AK? He may have owned one, but I don't think he had it with him yesterday.

It doesn't matter whether or not he actually had it. The very fact that he COULD have had such an evil weapon is all that antis need.

ericman
October 4, 2006, 07:45 AM
One of the police bigwigs being interviewed said yesterday that although he supports gun control it would not have effected this situation and it would not be proper for people to use this for anti gun agendas.

Ive noticed the news is concentrating more on the fact that the dude who did this was a pedophile and molested kids when was 12. I have heard very little talk of gun control.

mons meg
October 4, 2006, 08:18 AM
Er, what effect would removing the no-gun-in-school rule have done to prevent this latest tragedy?

The Amish are pacifists, and wouldn't carry if you told them they could.

Deanimator
October 4, 2006, 08:33 AM
I hope thats all it is and there is no other "Bans" comming.
Certainly not from the Republicans. Things are close enough that if they drive gunowners away, they're TOAST. Certainly a lot of gunowners told them that in '04. I know _I_ did.

Colt
October 4, 2006, 09:29 AM
Similar acts of violence will be identified as "Domestic Terrorism" and all known associates, sellers, gun-club buddies, speed-dial numbers, website members etc. will be "persons of interest" and with the recent elimination of habeus corpus the persons of interest will look forward to many enjoyable hours of interrogation, physical persuasion, no rights, no representation, no charges, no visitation, no trial, and a strong chance of becoming "disappeared."

Have you recently suffered a blow to the head? lol

Habeus corpus has been eliminated for US citizens? When did that happen? Possibly you are refering to the political stunt McCain perpetrated when he attempted to bestow US constitutional rights upon non-uniformed foriegn nationals who are known terrorists?

Or maybe you're refering to one of "King George's" many evil plans to dominate the world? Please identify the source of your paranoid hyberbole.

Erebus
October 4, 2006, 09:52 AM
If someone says that they need to get rid of/ban/restrict guns further because of this incident ask them if they would feel better if instead of blowing their brains out he was cutting their throats.

Make them think about it and even if to your face they don't change their tune, they will see the light. You can't legislate proper behavior. Anyone who believes that a law will stop people from behaving improperly is only preparing themselves to be a victim of such behavior.

blindndead
October 4, 2006, 09:58 AM
Could it be a idea to have one firearm Under lock and key in control of a headmaster or what not In a school. to defend children if something like this would happen/ Yea I do know the law but does that sound like that would fly?If a nut job walks into a school redy to Kill.

The Freeholder
October 4, 2006, 12:00 PM
3 guns and 600 rounds of ammo? They'd be carrying these bliss-ninnies out in ambulances (strokes, don'tcha know) if they looked in the average THR member's house.

Even my wife, who isn't fond of guns, has gotten over Big Brown Santa dumping a couple thousand rounds on the front porch. She knows that goes down range in a few good Saturdays.

Here's my prediction--these shootings, ex-Congressthing Foley's little faux paus, a certain growing level of discontent with the WOT, the Republicans taking a big whiz on their traditional base and 5 weeks to the election spell dire danger of a Democrat majority in both houses of Congress next session. If they do, they'll likely start off slowly, but expect to see Son of Assualt Weapon Ban in the next two years. I'd also expect some sort of ammunuition legislation as well.

We, as gun owners, may be in for some dark times ahead.

Gordon Fink
October 4, 2006, 01:09 PM
And the grieving parent asked, “Dear Lord, how could you have let this tragedy happen once again?”

And God said, “How could I stop it? They don’t let me in the schools anymore.”

Yes, children were murdered at an Amish school because “they” don’t let God in. :rolleyes:

~G. Fink

sm
October 4, 2006, 03:14 PM
So what are some improvised weapons a level headed student could use?

Sub-Forums Strategy & Tactics and Non-Firearm Weapons offer some great ideas, and a search will also reveal various training ideas and places to consider for training.

As an older College Student myself, taking IT classes, and state statutes dictate I cannot CCW on campus:

I keep a #2 pencil and/or mechanical pencil handy ( I write with pencil a lot with figuring problems and such), I am allowed a knife, so I have small SAK, and larger one on person. While I prefer a glass container, I can use a 20 oz plastic soda , and using top, poke Adam's Apples, eyes and whatever else I have access to..

My backpack has a small screwdriver, some patch cords, more pencils/ pens and inexpensive multi-tool. No lockers, still many times I do have a spare combo lock, in my backpack, for sure one in my truck, I have used, when if needed, I am somewhere and want to lock something up. I have attended/ visited places where lockers were afforded, so I carry a lock or two...
I wear a belt, belts are great. Slip a lock on that belt, and greater...


Let me see, I have Computers, Scanners Monitors, Laptops, routers, switches, Chairs, the wooden dowels for turning overhead projectors on and off (remotes may have bad batteries, or just easier to poke on/off), Staplers, paper cutters, books...

Flower vases, candy bowls, fire extinguishers,trash cans, smoking butlers vending machines ( which I have no problem tumping over to assist in keeping a door secure)....


So I can toss, defend against, choke,strangle, garotte, tie a door shut to prevent being followed(buy time to get distance going out a fire door for instance)...bascially, any school, school room, office, and exterior -

Basically - what do I care about tearing up stuff , reeking havoc, making a mess, to use whatever I can to fight?

I don't.

I once used trash cans in a alley to scare the crap out a thug, who thought I was plumb crazy, by tossing cans, lids and acting totally 'berserk" to get him unarmed of a butcher knife, and allowed a person I was with - time and distance to get to a safer spot.

Yes I used the old little known Trash can vs Butcher Knife method. It helps to cuss, scream, and act plumb nuts. It stopped an immediate threat, and since I /us did not shoot anyone, there was none of that Problem 2 stuff to worry about.

Yeah, new metal trash cans were bought and replaced later...

I like the ones with real good handles - so you get a real good grip when you get momentum built up -

Rusty, dented ones tend to toss further, and straighter in my testing...

Point being: Software trumps Hardware.

One always has their brain with them - they do not always that Ultimate Shotgun.

Learn to "run what you brung" and less on " I gotta have a Ultimate Shotgun"

IMNSOHO

Manedwolf
October 4, 2006, 03:37 PM
Never underestimate hot coffee, either.

Whenever I go on a train or such somewhere I can't carry, I always get a typical 10,000 degree cup of coffee from Dunkin' or some other vendor.

Throwing a near-boiling liquid in someone's face is an excellent deterrent.

648E
October 4, 2006, 05:11 PM
:scrutiny:

And the grieving parent asked, "Dear Lord, how could you have let this tragedy happen once again?"

And God said, "How could I stop it? They don't let me in the schools anymore."

:rolleyes:

And I said, it's because you don't belong there.

It's a small thing we call "seperation of church and state", and since the school is part of the state...

SoCalShooter
October 4, 2006, 05:17 PM
Its a good thing that fox does not know how much ammo I have, they would really have their heads explode. The prez is just catering right now so that the repubs dont lose in the elections its all politcal bs.

BTW ID shooting your comments were hilarious thank you.

Deanimator
October 4, 2006, 06:10 PM
We, as gun owners, may be in for some dark times ahead.

Those who plan for defeat usually achieve it...

the 22 junkie
October 4, 2006, 06:22 PM
Who's planning for it? Not me, I think he was just making an observation. What did you want us to do, talk about how well the pro-gun movement is going to do next year while discussing a school shooting? It's not gonna be all sunshine and unicorns if the Dem's take back the House and Congress. :rolleyes:

SuperiorMarksman_18
October 4, 2006, 06:36 PM
The cops would go nuts if they knew what I had in my garage and under my bed.

Lone_Gunman
October 4, 2006, 06:37 PM
Those who plan for defeat usually achieve it...

I think we need to get ready for a fight.

As everyone knows, Bush supports the AWB. He has said so many times. Even if this is only lip service, he is on the record so much about it that if a bill is sent to him, he will sign it. He would lose too much face otherwise. Also, as well all know Bush has a tendency not to use his veto power.

The Republicans are scared that their poor performance over the last 6 years is about to catch up with them. I expect them to be voted out in November. This latest controversy with Congressman Foley, and Hastert turning an apparrent blind eye isnt going to help either.

Hopefully I am wrong, and the Republicans will keep the House and Senate. But if they do lose, I suspect we will have a new AWB signed into law by the end of 2007.

Manedwolf
October 4, 2006, 06:39 PM
I'd say wait a few days. Bush's people said he's going to make a speech about some sort of school safety issues.

Let's see if it's an antigun betrayal, an actual good plan for security people in schools, or another alphabet soup agency that wastes money.

It'll only be a few days. I suggest wait and see.

azredhawk44
October 4, 2006, 07:03 PM
My official title in A.S.S. will be Head Officer of Learning & Education.


Can I be the Head Assault Trainer? (A-S-S-H-A-T):neener:

glockamolee
October 5, 2006, 12:55 AM
Yeah,

I was just waiting for some madman to do something, something that would also get the busybodies talking about gun control.:mad:

22-rimfire
October 5, 2006, 01:31 AM
Superiormarkman18: If everything you own is legal, why would the police even care what you have in your garage or house? How you use them is the key at least that is the way the law is written now.

But then we have the Patriot Act....

My guess is that the Democrats and any anti-gun Republicans will not say much prior to the Nov '06 elections. This is probably especially true of anyone running for election. There is too much emotion emboiled in the topic and it could swing votes one way or the other at the last minute. Most folks unfortunately are just starting to pay attention to the upcoming election.

I am waiting to hear what Bush is going to say with regard to protecting our children. I guess the feds will dole out some more money to install metal detectors in all schools and two armed police to man them during school hours. Spending money makes people feel better and that is what it is all about when it comes to gun control and school safety. It is not about results unless the result is more laws and more gun control.

The mention of knives troubles me. I doubt the Amish school gunman could have accomplished what he did with a knife since he starting shooting only after the police arrived. My thought is he had other plans before the shooting was to start. Sick.

44AMP
October 5, 2006, 03:03 AM
The one real weapon a person has is between their ears. Everything else is a tool. Some are more efficient than others, but they are not weapons. They are tools. Objects. Only human will/intent makes anything a weapon. With intent, anything can be a weapon.

Herd the kids into the corner and turn off the lights? Why not just have them bury their heads in the sand?

Anybody remember the school shooting in Oregon in the 80s (I think) or maybe the early 90s, where one of the students subdued the shooter, after being shot! This is what needs to happen.

Instead of teaching our childrfen to cower in fear, waiting helplessly for evil to find them, why not teach them to swarm a would be gunman. I don't see how any more children could be killed. Might even be a few less.

Sawdust
October 5, 2006, 11:38 AM
Quote:
My official title in A.S.S. will be Head Officer of Learning & Education.



Can I be the Head Assault Trainer? (A-S-S-H-A-T)

Sure, as long as I can be the Weapons Inspector and Pistol Expert...

Sawdust

tenbase
October 5, 2006, 11:49 AM
I volunteer for the position of Chief Logistics Officer, Weapons Negotiations

/got nothin'

the 22 junkie
October 11, 2006, 11:32 PM
Fine, if all the good positions are taken, I'll be Raids and Assaults, Phone Expert then. Or maybe even Kazzoing In Sheeple Studies Effects Reporter. :D :evil:

ID_shooting
October 12, 2006, 01:53 AM
I actually have thought about opening several sub-H.O.L.E.s in various regions. I will need some Majors to report to at least one General.

Airjunki
October 14, 2006, 03:26 AM
It just blows me away how every time the elections are closing in we get a mess of gun violence in the media. How do you figure they do it? Subliminal messaging maybe? Maybe chip implants? :uhoh:

the 22 junkie
October 14, 2006, 03:43 AM
Agent Provacetours, my friend.

Werewolf
October 14, 2006, 12:09 PM
It does seem rather coincidental doesn't it????

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