Evil & Schools


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sm
October 3, 2006, 01:39 PM
Evil has recently chosen to violate many schools around the country.

My heartfelt condolences to the victims, victims families, all the communities, and every person involved in running toward Evil, and dealing with Evil's aftermath.

I am sad, angry and hurt. Human Rights have been violated by Evil again.

History is a great teacher, if one will only pay attention. I am sad, angry and hurt that many of Society today chose to allow themselves to be brainwashed by Tyranny's Propaganda, instead of learning from History.

If one keeps on doing what they always did - one keeps on getting what they always got. -Anon.

Evil will take the easier softest route if afforded. Tryanny has brainwashed society that having knives in schools are wrong. We had victims tied up, and no way to cut themselves free. We had victims that did not knives that could perhaps have gained distance against evil. No knives to assist anothers in cutting loose from Evil, and perhaps enough little knives, with enough students could have stopped an immediate threat.

Adults whom have passed background checks, are not allowed to have firearm on Campuses. Be they School Employees, Students, Parents of Students, or anyone else, that has business on a campus, from a guest speaker to a plumber being called in.

Evil knows this, and again, Evil will take the easier , softest route if afforded.


I am sad, angry and hurt, that Society assists Evil.

Society will not think for themselves, instead hide in mob mentality to rationalize behavior.

Society is too busy going nowhere to keep up with life, therefore when time to vote, they are too busy. If Society does vote, they do not know the issues, so vote the mob mentality, so they can say "I voted".

Media, I am really angry at you. How dare you feel ratings and advertising dollars are more important, than Human Rights, Freedom, Liberty, and Human Life! I curse you!

Politicians, I am really angry at you as well. You SWORE an OATH, to protect the COTUS from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Many of you have failed in keeping this oath, and allowed Evil to gain ground. You sold your souls to Evil for votes, attention, money, status , personal gain and power. I curse you.

Tryanny disguised as Brady Bunch, and all Gun Control Groups, and United Nations- YOU are perpetuating Evil.


It is never the tool itself - it is the Intent of the user of a tool - Anon

Evil used firearms, rope, 2x4s and other inanimate objects to do Evil with these schools. It took Evil in a human form to use this tools.

The blood of these victims , the tears of victims themselves, the families, communities and those that ran toward Evil, fall not on the firearms , rope, 2x4s and other inanimate objects-


The blood of these victims , the tears of victims themselves, the families, communities and those that ran toward Evil - fall directly on Tryanny disguised as Media, Politcians, Gun Control Groups, and Society that succumbed to mob mentality.


Leave Freedom alone to fight Tryanny, and Evil will be dealt with.

I am sad, angry and hurt, Freedom was not allowed to fight Evil in these tragedies. Just as history as shown us before.

I am sad, angry and hurt -
If one keeps on doing what they always did - one keeps on getting what they always got. -Anon.

And we keep getting more Evil.


A little person can beat a bigger person - if in the right, and keeps coming at them. - Anon

Evil - I am not the only one that has been coming at you, and will never stop doing so.

I am sad, angry and hurt - this means I am alive, and can fight.

Those that can fight - do so to keep Evil at bay, and to deal with Evil as need.


Less noise - more signal - Rich

Deeds not Words - Barbara.


-Now listen up- my druthers.

Use the search function for 9mm vs 45ACP debates. To ask what crap to hang off a shotgun you will not shoot anyway. Want to bash a cop? Get off this board to do it. Want to troll? Leave, leave 30 seconds ago.
You want to be part of a "Responsible Firearm Community" ? Act like it and Earn it!

This bandwith needs to be used for some serious rallying and deed doing.

I do not personally own a TV - which means I choose to not view Tryanny propaganda in TV shows, MSM, Movies and such.

I do use Internet to keep informed on issues , researching cites to know the truth, and I use this in such matters as Voting. I use the computer and Internet, for writing letters, sending emails and Freedom Preserving uses.

I do have firearms.


Steve.

If you enjoyed reading about "Evil & Schools" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Polishrifleman
October 3, 2006, 02:19 PM
Why can't we just see it as EVIL???

We need to always look for that glimmer of reason when there is no fathomable reason to understand or find.

We always look for something to blame other than the individual.
How could we have helped?

We are all victims in our own way some of us just choose to get over it and move on.

Those that can't get over it find out from society that it is ok to have feelings, it is ok to have issues, communicate about them feel good about them, it is who you are and you are congratulated for your differences and your attempts at healing and once you realize it is all a lie you snap because you figure out how weak you really are and that all the programs, and people can't conquer a personal problem you yourself have the power and the people and programs have diluted you down to having nowhere to look for help when that is what you have been taught to do look outside for help not inside.

I am weak, I have vices, I know this and understand it and have to deal with them on a daily basis, but I also have core values some not as strong as others, some that have become stronger over time having become a parent the whole honor your father and mother thing has taken on new meaning but when there is no value there is no worth.

Great post SM, a deep ranging topic that we all need to explore.

Larry Ashcraft
October 3, 2006, 03:48 PM
What angers me are the people who still think outlawing CCW in schools is a good idea. :mad:

Geno
October 3, 2006, 03:56 PM
Larry:

I have a CCW, and was a H.S. principal who dealt with one of these cases.

I refused then to carry my CCW in school and I stand against it now. Bullets don't know the difference between the BG and the GG. Given that a .40 S&W will penetrate 36" of flesh, I can't see legitimating CCWs in school.

Add to that, the fact of teachers going nuts on admin, and one simply must say no guns in school. Remember, I dealt with this matter first-hand, and never needed a gun. Recall too, that I am a certified TKD instructor for nearly 26 years. In close quarters, give me TKD any day!

Lock the doors, have security cameras, and listen to the kids. They are intelligence officers. They'll keep you informed if you are humble enough to empower them. I was; I am.

CCWs in school. No!

Doc2005

Go ahead and throw the darts all. I stand by my position.

Edit too add:

If life is that dangerous, hire a uniformed police officer to patrol campus. That is what we did in Saginaw, Flint and LA when I lived there. It worked. We never had ANY violence in school. Any violence came from outside.

TallPine
October 3, 2006, 04:19 PM
I guess I don't understand what these evil monsters killing schoolkids has to do with (not) discussing legitimate complaints against police :confused:

orangelo
October 3, 2006, 05:00 PM
Doc2005: You think the .40S&W carried by the cop some how magically knows good guys from bad then?

What about Mr "I'm the only one in this room responsible enough to handle a Glock 40" ? Didn't that happen in a school?

TX1911fan
October 3, 2006, 05:02 PM
Doc, the fallacy of your statement is that the teacher who wants to go off on the administration can easily bring a gun. Now you are brining TKD to a gunfight. Given those odds, I'll take a gun, anyday. Unless you have a full strip search, have a complete lock down, bolt shut all doors and windows, and allow NOTHING from off campus to come on campus (kind of sounds like prison, right), you cannot guarantee a gun will not make it on campus.

RobW
October 3, 2006, 06:08 PM
Politicos NEED violent criminals to deprive the "citizenry" of their liberties.

Remember CCW Diane Feinstein? CCW is good for me, but not for you stupid serfs!

Larry Ashcraft
October 3, 2006, 06:16 PM
I'm afraid I've hijacked Steve's thread and turned into a "CCW for teachers thread".

We already have one of those going here. (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=224439)

Let's get back to the point of this thread:
Leave Freedom alone to fight Tryanny, and Evil will be dealt with.

Fred Fuller
October 3, 2006, 06:28 PM
I cannot believe this government is genuinely concerned about the threat of terrorism as long as our borders are wide open to anyone with the stamina to walk across.

By the same token, I cannot believe that any government is serious about maintaining the safety of schoolchildren when those who are charged with the responsibility of keeping them during the schoolday are individually and collectively denied the most effective means of protecting them.

At some point, incompetence ceases to be a sufficient explanation for the status quo...

lpl/nc

Pilgrim
October 3, 2006, 06:32 PM
TKD?

sm
October 3, 2006, 06:37 PM
Larry,
No need to apologize.
When time allows me to finish...I am working on something.

I am going to hit below the belt, and not be PC about it either.

Geno
October 3, 2006, 07:31 PM
Sorry about that SM! I will withhold my responses.

Doc2005

Biker
October 3, 2006, 07:56 PM
Although I disagree with Doc concerning this matter, he should be able to express his opinion on THR. He's certainly in the "Belly of the Beast" and knows the nature of said beast.
Cut the man a little slack.

Biker

Larry Ashcraft
October 3, 2006, 08:22 PM
Biker,

Doc is without blame on this one, and his opinion is certainly welcome.

I'm the one who derailed the thread. :o

Now, back to Steve's thread.

azredhawk44
October 3, 2006, 08:29 PM
sm-

That was simple and eloquent. It was peaceful and authoritative.

Thank you.

Cliff47
October 3, 2006, 08:31 PM
Pilgrim - TKD is short form for Tae Kwon Do (pardon me if there is a misspeling in there). Basically a hand-to-hand marital art that is sometimes identified (or mis-identified) as karate, hop-kido, and a few other forms that I have trouble remembering (let alone typing). I will back off for those with a greater knowledge of the subject than I have.

Pilgrim
October 3, 2006, 08:38 PM
Thank you for the explanation.

TKD may be great for 26 year instructors, but rarely do people have the time to study long enough to be proficient in combat.

I have a granddaughter who studied Kenpo Karate for three years. I watched her when she got into a school yard fight. She reverted to hair pulling, scratching, and shoving, none of which she learned in the karate school.

Pilgrim

txgho1911
October 3, 2006, 08:47 PM
Thank you Steve for this view of wisdom.
I will shamelessly barrow this opening post. How should the citation read?
SM @ THR.org

george29
October 3, 2006, 09:17 PM
Can't remember if I saw it on a news video or read it on an internet news source, but I recall hearing (and knowing I would hear) the official BS spewed by some official saying something like "we did all we could to prevent this, there is no way to make a school 100% safe from a situation like this".

2 things poped in my head.

1) Elections are not far off and these last school terrorists will probably sway the undecided voter and we could lose the Senate to the DemoRats.

2) The official statement is the ultimate in deceit, not a lie, a deceit which is worse; for a lie is easily uncovered, a deception is camoflauged in truth.
It is true that there are few things in this life that ARE 100%, perhaps in fact only death is certain. But Mr. Deceiving Official, you didn't even begin to do EVERYTHING in order to prevent this from occuring. According to the same article, none of the children knew what "code white" meant as they heard it on the loudspeakers, and the teachers needed to look it up before they reacted, too late for a few little girls. Copycat incidents were highly likely to continue (and probably will still), why wasn't your school/district at a heightened level of security, you know, maybe closing all but one door when the children are in class, one or two accesses (not including fire doors), perhaps a roving teacher or the ass. principle. Is there no ROTC classes present in your district? Why not utilize these responsible youths for guard duty? Arm them with walkie talkies and train them only to observe, not interfere, to check doors and entrances.

3) We all know Guns are evil, they have a will of their own, for arguments sake I agree. Why wasn't someone armed with a Taser? It WILL do the job if the subject can be confronted by a brave teacher/principle.

4) When the suspect was finally observed after 45 minutes roaming the school (am I getting confused with school #2 and school #3?) and the announcement "Code White" was broadcast, do you really think he was so stupid as to not figure what that meant (he got into a classroom before the teacher knew that "code white" means "close the effing door NOW, there is immediate danger). Just announce "Lockdown Now", no "code BS", it took me months to get used to codes and this is in the best case where I worked in a job where this was SOP, if I heard "Officer down, Officer needs help" it would register much quicker than "10-33 at my 20", if the guy remembered to say it like that, we figured he was just a bit tense (and it almost always was the case), but hearing "Officer down, Officer down, Officer needs help at 4th and Main" adrenaline would do the work for us. "Code White" , call it "Code Schumer/Feinstein", maybe that will get someones attention faster.

How's about getting the PTA involved for help, or VFW who might like to help monitor the grounds with walkie talkies or via a few well placed cameras.

What did you really do Mr. Official, I mean besides having very important meetings with very important people about very important matters of the utmost urgency, of which many people were involved and took orders and drank coffee and spent our tax dollars. Guarding a school takes two things; understanding what is truly important in life and creativity, c'est tout Monsieur.

Guns? Who's talking abouty guns (or TKD for that matter). A few observant volunteers with a few stinkin radio's is all that was needed (if response time was good and Taser's none existant).

Molon Labe
October 3, 2006, 09:25 PM
I am sad, angry and hurt, that Society assists Evil.Children are taught self defense is bad, all morals are relative, and that nothing is worth fighting for.

We are no longer a warrior culture. We are a culture of sheep.

The warrior still exists, but he is one out of a hundred. There are too few of them to make a difference.

Standing Wolf
October 3, 2006, 10:35 PM
Human Rights have been violated by Evil again.

Actually, I'd say children were murdered by criminals, not some abstract, disembodied principle.

That said™, I'll concede it's unspeakably evil that we have done and continue to do nothing about evil people.

sm
October 3, 2006, 10:56 PM
Larry, you never have to apologize to me my friend.

Doc2005, you do not owe me an apology either. We agree to agree in a civil manner.


I do not have any kids of own. I do have a soft spot for kids, abused ladies, the eldery and dawgs.

I am fed up is what I am. Yes I may be getting older, I may be going thru one of them "dimensions" my Mentor & Elders spoke of - then again I have always felt a certain way about certain things - like Evil and Tryanny.

I have expressed how fed up I am with Folks breathing MY air, and wasting Oleg's bandwith. Screw the debates in guns, calibers, and all - do a friggin search or go whine elewhere.

We need to bind together better than we do, and quit dividing ourselves.
I do not care if you are blue, have sex with a little red wagon , shoot a Purple Poodle shooter, and worship the anthill in the backyard.

About expletive darn time we joined forces and made our voices known.

We need folks that can gather cites, collect data. We need any and all dirt on MSM, Brady, UN, Gun Control Groups, Politicians, Voting...

WE can bust these myths flat out lies that allows Evil to win.

Right now, I want to run smooth arse up the middle and shove facts and reality down Tryanny's throat until Tyranny chokes and dies.

At this moment we have tyranny agendas using these school tragedies to gain ratings, donations, support , votes ...like hell they should!

Let us get it together folks, lets get armed with knowledge, facts , cites and hit tyranny and evil hard and fast, and below the belt, kidney punches, scratching and biting is legal in my book.

We can be civil while we do this. WE can be civil with each other, Glocks with 1911s, ARs with AKS, 9mm with 45ACP...

WE can be civil as we kick butt and take names too. WE do not want to lower ourselves to Evil's level.

Civil Disobedience.

Panthera Tigris
October 3, 2006, 11:08 PM
Well said. Evil is evil and most times it just needs to be eliminated.

One of the reasons I favor the death penalty.

sm
October 3, 2006, 11:08 PM
Writers:


Need folks to step up that can write and express:

Media: they are supporting Evil in only being interested in ratings. Express Media, I am really angry at you. How dare you feel ratings and advertising dollars are more important, than Human Rights, Freedom, Liberty, and Human Life! I curse you!.

Brady and Gun Control groups : How they perpuate Evil in the name of getting attention, collecting donations.

Politicians: Politicians, I am really angry at you as well. You SWORE an OATH, to protect the COTUS from all enemies, foreign and domestic.
Many of you have failed in keeping this oath, and allowed Evil to gain ground. You sold your souls to Evil for votes, attention, money, status , personal gain and power. I curse you.

Make this available to any and all to be emailed and snail mailed.

--

Statisticians and Legal folks, you know better than I how to gather data and to present facts and cites.


We all have something we can do...let us do it.


Steve.

Prince Yamato
October 4, 2006, 01:06 AM
Children are taught self defense is bad, all morals are relative, and that nothing is worth fighting for.

Hit the nail on the head. I love how people try to find the motive behind mass shootings. Was the person molested as a child? Did they grow up in a mixed or blended family? The answer is under their nose... the person was EVIL. I mean cripes, who cares WHY the person shot a bunch of innocent people. The point is that they did. Evil doesn't need a reason, evil exists for the sake of being itself. I'm not uber religious, but I believe there is a verse in the bible that paraphrased says something to the order of: "Evil will ALWAYS exist, only God knows why." I figure that it makes sense, so I arm myself. Unfortunately, the same people that try to legislate firearms into illegality also try to legislate the notion of right and wrong. Is it any surprise that a group of relative moralists, that doesn't believe in right or wrong, would try to block someone from defending themselves? "You know the killers have rights too," they say. Really, because I consider abuse of free will to the extent that you deprive another of their right to live, grounds that you be taken out of this world too.

Erebus
October 4, 2006, 02:07 AM
It's real simple, evil exists because there are people who will go to any length to fulfill desires. If they have to rob, hurt, rape or kill to satisfy that desire they will do it.

I carry because I believe that a pinch of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Unfortunately many people have been programmed to believe that cure is the only solution. Reaction after the fact. A video camera prevents absolutely nothing. Especially when you are dealing with someone who will commit suicide once his evil act is complete or just shoot it out with the police. Remember, there were video cameras at Columbine. These types of people require action not reaction. Someone who will fight to the death or blow their own brains out after completing their task must be forcibly stopped prior to committing the act as no deterrence will suffice. Failure has already occurred as we are not willing to take the necessary steps for prevention.

How many school shootings have occured in Isreal since school officials started carrying? Answer: A couple failed ones and then they stopped.

http://www.jpfo.org/school.htm

Molon Labe
October 4, 2006, 07:16 AM
Hit the nail on the head. I love how people try to find the motive behind mass shootings. Was the person molested as a child? Did they grow up in a mixed or blended family? The answer is under their nose... the person was EVIL.I have never understood why the police and media are so obsessed with trying to find a motive when evil occurs. Who cares why he killed those girls? It doesn't matter why he did it.

Evil will always exist - that's a given. Good people must have the tools to fight it. Prohibiting a person from using tools to fight evil is itself evil.

I am reminded of Jeff Cooper's quote:

An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.

PAshooter
October 4, 2006, 09:41 AM
I think the police (and media, and public) are obsessed with "finding out why" in the misguided belief that if we know why things like this happen they can be prevented. They cannot. They can, however, be stopped.

But as a society, we are unwilling to equip those in a position to stop these types of acts with the tools needed to do so. So they will continue.

mike101
October 4, 2006, 09:55 AM
Doc2005- Are you really worried about a teacher going off on the administration? If you have teachers you mis-trust that much, maybe they shouldn't be teaching there. However, I would not be opposed to armed guards as an alternative. As long as somebody in the school has the ability to shoot back, it would be better than what most schools have, which is nothing.

Many sheeple think that armed guards would scare the kids, and so, are opposed to them. I would rather have a scared kid than a dead kid.

sm
October 4, 2006, 11:09 AM
mikeburk101.

Nope.

I am not worried about a teacher going off on administration.
I am not worried about Administration going off on teachers.
I am not worried about Administration or Teachers going off on students,- or students going off on Admins and teachers.

That must be someone else.

Evil exists, always has, always will.

I am sad , angry and hurt because until kids get older/bigger they need parents and adults to not only pass forward living skills, these same kids have to rely on adults to keep them safe to varying degrees.

Society today - Adults did not / do not take responsibilites for themselves. These adults faithfully follow other sheep over the cliff to the jagged rocks below...
...put blind faith in MSM, Politicians, Gun Control Groups ...


Me-
First off I am not sure I want someone teaching anything to anyone- especially a kid, that does not believe in being responsible for themselves.

If a teacher is not willing to carry a firearm - I would not want them teaching my kid.

While I respect folks beliefs - I would seriously question having Admin., Teachers teaching my child.

I questioned a college instructor. She kept trying to cram down my throat, and the rest of this class gun control.

So I put a gun lock on a fire-extinguisher, and used in the classroom, poster board to represent a fire in a trash can -she - noticed, that with a lock - that "tool" of a fire extinguisher was unable to be used quickly and effectivly.

When in attendance to a play that semester, and it was not in the best part of town, especially after dark, and where some had to park - I and others of my kind were asked to walk students out to their cars - these being gun control folks.

I suggested they flip a coin as to whom was going to get raped first, while the other punched 911 - then I walked off, as did my group, whom were CCW-ing.

No, I would let kids be armed with knowledge, allow knives in school, kids get bigger, them be armed with firearms, Admins and Teachers armed, and heck I'd have at least one shotgun and long gun in the room that the smallest person in a classroom could shoot.

One can turn off electricity, by-pass cameras and metal detectors.

One cannot turn off another's brain, with the mindset to survive, and one cannot turn off a firearm before entering a building.

Level the playing field, evil/ criminals are entering zones of zero means to defend , and zones of least resistance.

Remove zones of zero means/ least resistance . Evil and criminals will be deterred - or dealt with.

Remove the teachers into gun control, denying kids human rights, and instead allow teachers with some spine and believe in COTUS, BoR, and especially 2A - to teach kids.

Nope, I do not want a a teacher that would not CCW in a school teaching my kid...

mike101
October 4, 2006, 11:16 AM
Please accept my apology. I was in a hurry, and I went back to the wrong post to get the name. It was Doc2005 I meant to address. I will edit my post and use the correct name. Sorry about that. :o

Geno
October 4, 2006, 11:49 AM
One my former friends is now dead (a former superintendent) because a teacher who they were in the process of firing, brought a pistol to school and shot him dead, right in his office.

The teacher also shot and severely wounded the high school principal (also my friend) who did the documentation on the teacher.

My suggestion is to have armed officers, or security in those cases where there are genuine security concerns.

Doc2005

PAshooter
October 4, 2006, 11:59 AM
Doc:

Sorry to hear that, but I do have a couple of questions.

Was the teacher who did this carrying legally? In other words, did they have a CCW and was carrying permitted in this school?

If not they were no different than any of the rest of those who've been in the news lately committing violence in schools. And if legal carry was not permitted on school property did that stop the act? No. But it did deny those attacked the ability to defend themselves.

Where would the proposed "professional" armed guard have been at the moment of the attacks? Who knows. Would the presence of such a guard on school property have made any difference? Unlikely.

I respect your position, but firmly believe that 1) legal CCW by school employees on school property did not facilitate or cause this crime, and 2) the presence of an armed guard on school property would not likely have prevented it.

Each law-abiding individual should be given the choice to take responsibility for their own safety and well being.

Geno
October 4, 2006, 12:17 PM
Actually, I do agree with you. We SHOULD be able to carry our CCW in schools per the Constitution, right? But it is complicated by the fact of at what point does a human being "snap". And, we have no means of knowing when that is about to happen. And so to protect the students and all others, if no firearms are allowed, arguable we are safer.

I actually think that my administrative friends screwed up. They should have had the police attend the terminating of this teacher's contract. That is what I did when working with potentially violent situations.

What many do not know is that these events are nothing new. I have photocopies of such events happening back in the "teens", the 1920s, prior to and since up to the present times. What has changed is the instant media coverage. I say change the media coverage and get rid of the copy-cats.

But, all the same, there are alternatives to secure campuses, but most people are opposed. Schools should have secured doors, secured fence around campus, metal detectors, NO BOOKS to carried home from, or to school. All students should be given a set of textbooks for home-use. There should be a set of classroom books that remain 24/7 on the classrooms’ desks. Students be permitted to carry to school only a transparent folder with papers to school. ALL other supports and student needs should be provided by the school.

The first thing people would say is, who is going to pay for all of this. What price for security.

But, what we really need is to get back to nuclear families, being together for supper, supporting eachother and talking with children. The modern lack of family, lack of church and lack of community is why we have what we have...systemic EVIL!!!

Doc2005

Pilgrim
October 4, 2006, 12:35 PM
My suggestion is to have armed officers, or security in those cases where there are genuine security concerns.
And this is a guarantee that the armed officers aren't mentally ill, deranged, and won't go on a rampage?

Pilgrim

Geno
October 4, 2006, 12:40 PM
SM:

Now that is a compelling statement! You ought to post that one. God bless and thanks for sharing!

Pilgrim:

No doubt! There are no certainties, are there? We all see why some families choose to "home-school".

Doc2005

sm
October 4, 2006, 12:55 PM
Doc2005,

Post what statement? Give me a hint. I am not as smart as most around here. :)

Polishrifleman
October 4, 2006, 01:06 PM
Those family's that choose to "Home School" are in essence running from Evil then, or they can do it better, maybe they are the next warrior class.

Based on Doc's previous story the admin's and teachers are just as vulnerable as the kids and they are grown people with minds and decision making capabilities.

Who has done this to them??? Who has disarmed them??? Why do they choose to remain unprotected??? Who is their voice against Evil???

To SM's point there is no unified voice against Evil only disjointed, segragated, haphazard groupings of individuals with a personal reason to be involved, it isn't for the greater good anymore. Remember the need of the many far outweigh the need of the few.

Geno
October 4, 2006, 01:58 PM
Great questions! Who made us run from evil? I'll tell you.

It has been the result of "legislated morality", which is not morality at all. In Michigan, for example, if one had a CCW, and was affronted with violence, the CCW holder had to flee, not fight.

We have politically, legislatively been forced to bow to evil per the Democrats and Republicans who do not permit us to affront evil. If publicly we take our stand and defend ourselves, at best we will be arrested for public disturbance. Legislated calm?! It doesn't exist.

We are seeing the by-product of those anal political efforts. If every American of legal majority, mentally sound and non-felon had the unimpeded right to bare arms 24/7 in all locations, and no order to flee evil, society would see crime drop to near 0% in 1 day. Judges, lawyers and police would be out jobs. Best of all, criminals would be forced to get jobs.

We are getting closer in Michigan. The whole castle doctrine was just made law in Michigan, thus legislative affirming our right to defend self. Now, we can legally confront evil...finally.

Doc2005

buzz_knox
October 4, 2006, 02:46 PM
We SHOULD be able to carry our CCW in schools per the Constitution, right? But it is complicated by the fact of at what point does a human being "snap". And, we have no means of knowing when that is about to happen. And so to protect the students and all others, if no firearms are allowed, arguable we are safer.

Respectfully, that is precisely the argument certain groups use to ban civilian ownership: "we will be safer if people don't have guns because who knows when they'll snap."

If every American of legal majority, mentally sound and non-felon had the unimpeded right to bare arms 24/7 in all locations, and no order to flee evil, society would see crime drop to near 0% in 1 day.

I'm a little unclear on something. How can you be certain that someone is mentally sound if we cannot tell when a person is likely to snap? Even those who are otherwise upstanding citizens are subject to the occasional brain fart of one degree or another.

GungHo
October 4, 2006, 04:36 PM
Children are taught self defense is bad, all morals are relative, and that nothing is worth fighting for.
Mind that the "morals are relative" is slippery slope going either way.

Actually, I'd say children were murdered by criminals, not some abstract, disembodied principle.
I have to agree with this. I think "our problems" have a lot to do with blame-transferrence, on both sides of the coin.

I love how people try to find the motive behind mass shootings. Was the person molested as a child? Did they grow up in a mixed or blended family? The answer is under their nose... the person was EVIL. I mean cripes, who cares WHY the person shot a bunch of innocent people. The point is that they did.
Eh...

Well, I care why. Because I want to understand why and prevent it from happening if possible. I'm not comfortable with saying, "it's all because he plays video games and was molested" OR "he's just Evil and that's all there is". There's more to the issue than that.

Granted, people may just "go off the rails", but that's not always the case. Was there something, anything that could have been done to help the killer before they became a killer? If they'd have known they could be counciled somehow, would they have taken that option? I'm not talking about touchy-feely stuff, I'm talking about real help that people can find (not necessarily forced upon them, though).

Let me be more specific -- I want to know if the guy in PA could have talked to someone about his reported "molestation dreams", assuming reports are true, and if the resulting help could have stopped him from killing anyone. If that help is there, did he just not take it or was he too embarrased to take it? If he was too embarrased, why? Can we examine and maybe teach new values so that the stigma with getting the help needed is gone? Did he need a happy pill? A beer? A cigarette? A fudge sundae? Do we need to modify how people can access these so that getting help is a more efficient and satisfying process?

Trying to understand why really is more than Monday-morning quarterbacking, even if the news spins it into sensation to sell advertisements.

When I look around at the world, and especially in my country, I see a lot of anger. Angry teachers, angry workers, angry bosses, angry husbands, angry wives, angry old folks being adminstered to by angry nurses and angry doctors. There's joy, but it's fleeting, and it isn't shared. It's shared by rich and poor. This is a problem, because it's making angry kids.

Are those angry kids blameless for commiting acts of anger? Hardly. They still walked that path, they share the greatest portion of blame. However, for us to all stand around and say that we are not in any way complicit and it's all the actor's fault and no one is influenced by anything is as short-sighted an act as blaming it all on rock 'n' roll ya-ya music. And, I really do mean "we." Not the devil. Not Xenu. Not Evil. And, an angel isn't going to drop down from a crane hook and save us all.

I'm not saying we need to get involved in each other's lives. We have enough of that. Too much even. Maybe we should just leave each other alone for awhile and stop screwing each other up. I don't have a solution to propose, only a voice to say "we're not doing it right" and that pointing fingers at everyone but ourselves may not be the best solution.

I'm a little unclear on something. How can you be certain that someone is mentally sound if we cannot tell when a person is likely to snap? Even those who are otherwise upstanding citizens are subject to the occasional brain fart of one degree or another.
There's no way to tell unless they're rubbing poop on themselves. However, sometimes people know that they, themselves, are on the edge. The problem is that they may not do anything about it until it's too late, for myriad reasons.

Geno
October 4, 2006, 04:42 PM
You are correct on all counts. In fact, ALL of us here are correct in our own respective positions. Why, because it involves "situational decision-making". What surprises me is that in the past 24 or so hours, no one has e-mailed me, sent me a PM, or posted the following question of me:

“Is there no circumstance under which you WOULD support or condone carrying of CCWs in schools?”

My answer would be a resounding, “Of course there is!” This is all addressed in the decision-making text that I have written for administrators (being edited and to be in-press within 3 months). It is a book of case studies based on the 206 cases I dealt with as an a public school administrator.

In the chapter titled “Columbine was Tragic But It Wasn’t the First Such Case” I detail the happenings of a former dropout turned drug-crazed bomber/murderer/kidnapper who was threatening me, the students, the school, etc. However, he and his “buds” had been infiltrated by an undercover trooper from the Michigan State Police. While the State Police encouraged me to carry because I already possessed an FFL, and to get the CCW would have been simple, they ultimately dropped pushing me because the guy was a coward. As they stated, “He’s a coward. He’ll never cross you up and come in the building.”

Now for the sake of argument, let’s reverse that position. Let’s assume that the State Police had said, “This man is no coward. He will kill you and the students at all cost! Inside the building, outside the building, anywhere he can! You really need to carry 24/7!” Well, my friends, done deal. I would have been carrying in school, in church, in bed, in the shower…get the difference?

Now, is this hypocritical to my opening post? No. Not in any way, shape or form. It is called situational decision-making. Others call it informed decision-making. This is one of the areas that I instruct as a graduate professor. One assesses the individual happenings and merits. Or as I call it, the good, the bad and the ugly. Sounds like a movie, huh? The fact of the administrator deciding to carry in school or not to carry, and for that matter the fact of a teacher or a couple of teachers to carry MUST be addressed on a case-by-case basis. So, in general I still say no CCWs in school. Save for the event in which the police say, “Listen, you really have to. We can’t assure your protection or the students’ protection unless you help us by carrying in school.”

But, no one here has even touched on the students. The students are of greatest concern and greatest importance. If you have 300 students in your high school, you have the equivalent of 300 intelligence officers. You want to know what happens in school, ask a kid! Forget the admin. and the teachers. They don't know!!! When I was a principal, I had an empty locker that I used for "intelligence gathering". Anytime a student needed to communicate something urgent, all they had to do was drop a note in my hand, on my desk, in that empty (padlocked) locker (through the vent opening), or call me from the pay phone during a bathroom break. What ever, where ever, where ever. What the children told me, I took serious, kept my mouth shut, and I acted on it. It was the students who saved the day, not me. I merely listened and acted! Did it work? You tell me:

I had 1 student who intentionally got kicked out of class for insubordination so he could come to the office to report that his best "bud" was sitting in that class with a baggie of marijuana. He couldn't ask to leave or it would be obvious, right? That's what you call administrative trust! In exchange for such intelligence info., we agreed to not call the police. Instead, we called the parents and got him drug-addiction help.

Make sense?

Doc2005

buzz_knox
October 4, 2006, 04:54 PM
It is called situational decision-making. Others call it informed decision-making. This is one of the areas that I instruct as a graduate professor. One assesses the individual happenings and merits. Or as I call it, the good, the bad and the ugly. Sounds like a movie, huh?

Actually, it sounds like what everyone does most every day: what do I think will happen and what do I need to do about it. It's an intellectual excercise we play . . . but it's also a very dangerous game to play when safety is concerned. It assumes a relatively high degree of knowledge upon which to base the decision, when a reasonable person would recognize that the actual knowledge base was severely lacking. How many times have we heard that someone showed was a quiet kid, a good neighbor, etc., only to learn that they had hidden their true nature or they had simply had something go terribly wrong in their lives?

Many people don't carry unless they are in a bad neighborhood. That, of course, absolutely ignores the fact that the bad guys like to come to good neighborhoods, as that is where much of the loot they seek is.

Listening to kids is an excellent plan A. Having something with which to defend them when plan A fails is an excellent B. There's been quite a bit of success with plan A recently. There's been an absolute lack of success of plan B for the simple reason that too many people think firearms in school is a bad idea unless carried by officers . . . who usually won't be there until the excrement has hit the fan.

I had 1 student who intentionally got kicked out of class for insubordination so he could come to the office to report that his best "bud" was sitting in that class with a baggie of marijuana. He couldn't ask to leave or it would be obvious, right? That's what you call administrative trust! In exchange for such intelligence info., we agreed to not call the police. Instead, we called the parents and got him drug-addiction help.


That's a great resolution. But what would have happened if the good kid knew his buddy had a weapon and didn't say anything? Or didn't know to say anything? That's another frequently told story, and one that has led to many deaths. Being able to stop the bad guy in that situation requires more than interracting with kids.

Geno
October 4, 2006, 05:09 PM
Like I said, 206 cases. I've seen a LOT! Knives, pokers, firearms, drugs, drugs and more drugs, etc.

The firearms they thought they brought legally to repair in shop. :what: The students still turned it in, and the parents came to get them.

Trust with the kids is key. It is truly #1. Now, can it hold for ALL, 100% of cases? No. Never. But it beats playing Dodge City in the hallways.

But, as I said, see the measures I detailed earlier of a fence, metal detector, books at home, etc.

Doc2005

Erebus
October 4, 2006, 06:11 PM
Like I said, 206 cases. I've seen a LOT! Knives, pokers, firearms, drugs, drugs and more drugs, etc. Are you saying that if you were carrying you could not have handled these cases the same way you did while not carrying? If so, why?

A kid walking into your office and handing you a gun is way different from hearing gunshots in the hallway. Whether you are carrying or not you already have "Dodge City" in the hallway. If you aren't carrying all it does is insure that the bullets are only flying one way.

Geno
October 4, 2006, 10:17 PM
Well, I can only say that over the course of many, many years, and hundreds of cases, no one was ever injured on "my watch". Based on that fact, I must have done something right.

I assure you, I'll never convince you or probably anyone else that my view was right, but I can easily live with that. I convinced hundreds of wonderful students to work with me, even when so many teachers would not. That fact is what made me an extraordinary principal. I did that by being in the hallways and out-of-doors during a good 90% of the school day and doing paperwork exclusively in the early AM and late PM when no students were in the building.

Add one last fact, one of my former high school students is now one of my graduate students, and is a practicing high school administrator in Detroit. He says he follows my past practice, and attributes it to his own common sense and success to that fact. Now, with that support, who needs any other support?!

Best of all, in my present-day life, at night I sleep with no remorse, and no nightmares. So, I stand on my position.

Doc2005

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