Why so much hostility towards "tactical"


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DRMMR02
October 3, 2006, 06:07 PM
Why so much hostolity towards "tactical" from THR? The Urban setting is a way of life now. Many people who CCW or have weapons are not living out on the farm. They don't need to worry about coyotes or bears. People living in the city need to worry about criminals. Why shouldn't the same things that work well for police or soldiers in urban combat be available or useful to a citizen? Aren't we always saying "you can't always rely on having the police a moment away"? Things like lasers, mounted lights, night vision, night sights, all have a purpose. A LEO posted in the "fad" thread that he liked having a mounted light on his pistol because it allowed him to open doors or use his radio while keeping a suspect illuminated and secured. Why can this not also apply to non-LEOs? Is there something wrong with wanting a free hand when dealing with a bad guy? What if one wants to be on the phone to 911 but doesnt want to put down the light or his weapon? Is there some rule that says "A simple pistol and flashlight are all a civilian can use to protect his family"? The fact is, police and soldiers have these tools and they work. With the right training and know-how, there is no reason for an average Joe not to have them if he wants.


Tools are just tools. If one knows how to use the correcty and seriously, why make fun of it? I can understand the scorn if one thinks that simply "having" a light rail or a scoped AR will make them better. I play hockey, and I see the same thing with guys who think buying $500 skates will make them handle better. But if some really does take the time to hone their skills, who says $500 skates or a night-vision scope can't help with whatever they are trying to do?

That comment someone made in the "fad" thread about Buford T. Justice and his .38 is very apt. 20 years ago, every thought "plastic" guns would never match good ol fashion blued steel. Now of course we know that they are just as reliable, lighter, and in some cases more durable. That's called progress. It seems like a lot of people just want things to stay in their era. "If a bolt action with a nice wood stock was good enough for me, it's good enough for you".

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the 22 junkie
October 3, 2006, 06:12 PM
Mostly old geezers chiding them for..."Why back in my day, I had to fend off 20 (gestures with hands to indicate size) mutant zombie bikers with just my Marlin single shot and irons and none o' your fancy laser dot beams and the like....". Which is funny, becuase their old eyes and bodies could probably use those fancy red dot sights and recoil absorbing stocks the most. :p :)

mp510
October 3, 2006, 06:14 PM
I'm not anti tactical, but I have noticed that for most people, tactical has become tacticool. They buy the gear because it is neat or cool, not necesarily because of application.

Also, remember that many gun owners as a group are often a guild based on tradition. Tactical is not a part of that tradition. Tradition is blued steel and walnut, and every now and then some stainless or plastic- say a grip cap or something.

And then there is the antis. Tactical is very similar to what you would expect the military and or LE to have than the aformentioned traditional gun owner. That makes it even easier to stigmatize people against, because nobody, in their heart of hearts, wants somebody to be killed or to have to kill.

Personally, I see it as personal option. I really don't think tactical weapons are aesthetic. But, I realize that they are necesary, and serve a purpose. It's good to like everything, at least that's my opinion. Not sure what the wallet thinks though...

redneckrepairs
October 3, 2006, 06:15 PM
IMHO its because thro marketing " tactical " has become a buzzword for profeciancy . A lot of us here are to the point that we realise that a light on a gun will not have anything to do with our survivability rate , and we worry about the folks who see the light on the gun as a substitute for training and practice on low light level shooting , that is an example and not ment to bismerch " porchlights " on pisols or rifles , the same could be said for foreward vertical handgrips on an ar , or a multitude of accessorys its just that nowdays " tactical " has become a catchphrase for any gimmic which makes a shooter feel that the " gimmic " will make him/her a better shooter than pure work will ( range time ) .... others may differ , but that is my thoughts weak tho they are LOL

ilbob
October 3, 2006, 06:16 PM
buy stuff because you want it or have a use for it. don't let others make your decisions for you based on their own personal prejudices.

jerkyman45
October 3, 2006, 06:27 PM
Tactical isn't what I have a problem with, tacticool is just goofy. Put a Surefire on an AR-15, thats fine. But when you add two Surefires, a laser foregrip, a $800 scope, a bipod, a beta-C mag, a bayonet, and a mock silencer then dress in digi-BDUs from head to toe, deck out in full body armor and head out to McReedy's range and sportsmans club I get a little wierded out. Tactical is great, just don't go crazy.

junyo
October 3, 2006, 06:37 PM
Because gun owners are a ridiculously conservative group. They poopoo anything that hasn't been around at least 50 years and/or 2 major conflicts.

Now, there is a reason behind this. Anything serious, with split second life/death consequences tends to favor tried and true, it-might-not-be-cool-but-I-know-it-works solutions. They tend not to like, and to never forget, failures. For every guy who now thinks the AR platform is the bee's knees is some old codger that spits whenever it's mentioned, and moans about the unreliability of it based on the initial production one they replaced his M14 with in 'Nam. And lastly, a lot of what seems new and exciting to people who haven't seen as much, is reheated hash to the old guys (and gals). A lot of "new" ideas are really taking their second or third turn around the block. Maybe they've worked out the kinks, maybe they have'nt.

I try to balance the good bits of advice ("you shouldn't need geegaws to make it work") and ignore the BS ("if it's not a 1911, in .45 ACP, you might as well be throwing spitballs...").

GEM
October 3, 2006, 06:43 PM
Hey - I was looking for cheap Under Armour shirts to wear to matches. I found them at the Under Armour outlet store in their TACTICAL LINE - only $14.00.

Thus, I was tactical as the match this weekend. Unfortunately, the targets weren't impressed and didn't suck all my rounds to the A zone.

So when I go to the gun show and see the Goodyear blimp in human form wearing a tac vest to look at Hi-points - I congratulate that person on style. :D

Zach S
October 3, 2006, 06:44 PM
I hate it because of the market. Do a search for "tactical" at the wilson combat website and you'll get most of the catalogue.

carterbeauford
October 3, 2006, 06:54 PM
I am not particularly hostile towards tactical stuff, not nearly as bad as others. I admit I am guilty of owning a "black SKS" ...and we'll leave it at that.

Of course the line between "needed/useful" and "crap" is so often blurred. SWAT teams are not helping the situation any, though they might be engaging in the root word of tactics a little more often than you or I.

I stand by my opinion that if a product makes shooting your gun easier or safer to shoot, then by all means, use it. What I mean by safer would be using a flashlight mounted on a home defense shotgun. No one ever did anything wrong by identifying their target. Yet some people hate the idea of anything brighter than a 2D Rayovac and frown upon bright and expensive flashlights, and especially frown upon bright and expensive flashlights mounted on guns.

I do recall reading that "no one needs a $200 flashlight." Meet me in the woods at midnight on the first night with no moon and we'll discuss this. Come alone. If you hear a jangling noise, it's just the wild dogs. Or the mountain lion that just ate one of the wild dogs and stole his collar.

Technology is not retroactive, and the influx of tactical gear is a result of technology. If you hate change and innovation, things are only going to get worse for you.

RobW
October 3, 2006, 07:01 PM
I already have a good supply of black "Tactical" toothpicks, "Tactical" toothbrush, "Tactical" potatoes (they don't smell too good, but they are black), and "Tactical" soap.

Now I'm going to my "Tactical" bed. Black, for sure.

Soybomb
October 3, 2006, 07:04 PM
To me it seems like everything is tactical. Fat tony looks dumb when he puts on his tactical break away velco necktie. The guy that dons his tactical boots, tactical vest, tactical folder, tactical knife to buy some bread at walmart seems overdressed. Alot of it seems like guys who want to play cop or soldier and buy the toys to act the part. Thats fine as long as you're having fun but try to limit your tactitude a little in public or you look goofy. And some stuff that is labeled as tactical is just plain goofy anyway. :evil:

mljdeckard
October 3, 2006, 07:06 PM
When I was a kid, (high school,) I would order the U.S. Cavalry Store catalog and drool over all the cool stuff that was 'official issue'. When I was in the Army, I got my bubble busted, because I got 'issued' almost none of that stuff, and when you do get it, it isn't as good as they make it look in the pictures.

I bought a Buckmaster knife (they don't make them anymore) when I was 18, anticipating going into the army. I did take it with me, and I was quite overdressed with it. After extensive time in the military and as a survival instructor in the field, and some time working with 'court-referred youth' out in the desert, I do feel like this knife is appropriate. But it certainly wasn't when I got it.

After a lot of 'been there, done that' kind of experience, I came to realize that most soldiers loaded down with all the coolest gear on the market would be no match for my grandfather with his 1917 Enfield. Looking SWAT doesn't make you good. I have, over time, come to realize that it really is better to start with the basics (for gear AND tactics) and when you have mastered them, THEN escalate one step at a time. Otherwise, you're probably wasting money. Just because Blackhawk makes it, and you can buy it, doesn't mean it will actually help you. If you don't know what you are doing with a vanilla Remington 870, a short barrel, flashlight, laser, mag extension, and folding stock won't help you.

roscoe
October 3, 2006, 07:24 PM
We have just enough money to buy cool tactical stuff, but not enough time to spend becoming expert riflemen. It is a way to compensate.

Fred Fuller
October 3, 2006, 07:37 PM
COL John Boyd said it well: "People, ideas, hardware- IN THAT ORDER!" I recently revised my sig line to include another variation on the theme, from Jeff Cooper.

Note that hardware comes in last in every case.

Or to quote our own sm: "Cannot buy skill and targets."

Colonel Sanders made a fortune selling chicken in a cardboard box. If I could figure out a way to sell tactical in a blister pack, I could get rich too. Tactical is what you DO, not what you OWN.

lpl/nc

madmike
October 3, 2006, 08:29 PM
http://www.olegvolk.net/gallery/d/2779-2/pinkrifles0511.jpg


Because pink is the new black. Sheesh. Where have you been?

Black is just inherently uncool.

madmike
October 3, 2006, 08:38 PM
http://mawz.ca/barflies/medium/I%20Like%20to%20Move%20It%20Move%20It%2001-005.jpg


And what's wrong with bayonets, lights, bipods, betamags, QD swivels, padded slings, scopes, stowaway grips and lasers?






WHAT?

absolute0
October 3, 2006, 09:04 PM
BLACKHAWK!

Need I say more?

redneck2
October 3, 2006, 09:13 PM
Uh....

because there are posers, and guys that can really fill the bill

We had a guy that worked at our gun shop. This boy had every "tacticool" thing produced. The black pants, the tricked out AR, the coolest super mega beam flashlight, the super 870 pump shotgun.....

problem was, he was the 250 pound pimple faced geek that could do the hundred in two minutes flat

the only guys impressed by "tacticool" are other nerds

Now, I've got a G20 with an M6 light and an AR. I don't have them to be cool, I have them because I can use them.

MAURICE
October 3, 2006, 09:30 PM
The definition of tactical has gone from using the right tool for the job and dressing for the situation to running around in black and OD green, carrying the latest benchmade automatic knife, surefire light, and titanium spork.

However, I do love me some tacticool guns, knives, lights, etc.
Recently though I have gone from carrying a couple of knives to one. A custom slipjoint folder. I dont carry my surefire on my person, it stays in the car most of the time (unless I am working). I traded in my black Fisher pen for a silver cross pen. My brunton helios is now a stainless zippo. My tactical titanium watch is now a stainless citizen.

Tactical, for me, has become more about blending in with the rest of the crowd than standing out because of my 5.11 pants and any kind of cover garment that could remotely be called tactical or scream "I have a gun".

Got nothing against anyone for how they dress. If you want to dress tactically, go ahead. Just be advised that you do stick out in a crowd. Like Andre the giant at a little people convention.

10-Ring
October 3, 2006, 09:48 PM
Tactical is one thing...and when properly applied...appropriate. But, I've seen people at diff't ranges who have broken out the well pressed, dry cleaned designer BDU's and pull up in their chromed out H2 :scrutiny: open up their leather range bags and start shooting like their favorite movie liberal :rolleyes:
It's not hostility, it's the irreverence they show towards those that hold tactical revere that is more annoying than anything else. :banghead:

JMag
October 3, 2006, 10:05 PM
"Tactical is what you DO, not what you OWN."

That about sums it up for me.

Geronimo45
October 3, 2006, 10:14 PM
Tactical... Gecko45 and his ninja-walk-on-the-wall-boots probably spelled out how some people see 'tactical'. Also, how some people seem to claim that you can't hit anything without a red-dot scope selling for 300.

As for myself, I can see the point of a laser and/or a light on a handgun or rifle... I can't see why you need a scope on a handgun, though, and I get sick of the bull barrels on every revolver on the blasted market.

Lots of people have their own prejudices on what looks right on a gun, and what should and shouldn't be done. Not really meaningful, in a lot of cases - doesn't matter if I hate bull barrels, no more than if I think mayonaise is better on a burger than ketchup. Make your own decisions.

.38 Special
October 3, 2006, 10:23 PM
Because "tactical" is pretty much synonymous with "wannabe", at least if you're the kind of guy who thinks "tactical" means dressing up like the model in the Blackhawk! ads.

Bad news, dude: the odds of you saving the world and impressing chicks by foiling a terrorist plot with your NVG and pants-with-lots-of-pockets are pretty slim. And you look like a dork when you go to the Piggly-Wiggly.

Thanks for letting me share!

DRMMR02
October 3, 2006, 10:58 PM
Here's another question. How does someone dressing up like an operator and going to the range differ from guys who will only hunt with a muzzle-loader and period-specific fur and leather clothes? How does wearing 5.11 pants and a tac-vest differ from guys who do Civil War reenacting? It all just seems like guys having fun however they want to me.

SigfanUSAF
October 3, 2006, 11:02 PM
But, I've seen people at diff't ranges who have broken out the well pressed, dry cleaned designer BDU's

I still have my BDUs drycleaned. They are faded enough from 4 years of use. I don't want my E4 stripes to fade anymore:D Of course, I have a rusty '73 Ford, not an H2:cool:

.38 Special
October 3, 2006, 11:06 PM
Here's another question. How does someone dressing up like an operator and going to the range differ from guys who will only hunt with a muzzle-loader and period-specific fur and leather clothes? How does wearing 5.11 pants and a tac-vest differ from guys who do Civil War reenacting? It all just seems like guys having fun however they want to me.
The reenactor types aren't expecting anyone to take them seriously.:neener:

Wesker
October 3, 2006, 11:12 PM
I think the hate for tactical things stems from the 'tacticool' or 'tacticlol' fanboys who, like the teen aged American hip-hop car culture, do ridiculous things to weapons. Laser sights, lights, night sights, are all legitimate and tactically advantageous products.

What most people most likely consider the bad tactical and harbor the most animosity for are pistol grip shotguns, riced out AR15's with EOTech sights, lasers, a forward grip, and a microwave. Another bad impression one might get of the tactical crowd are guys that go to the gun ranges sporting 5.11 pants with web belts, bandoliers, kevlar helmets, combat boots and so forth. Sure, theres nothing wrong with getting way devoted into your hobby. I have friends who've dropped THOUSANDS of dollars into pool cues that are made from the same wood as Noah's ark.

There isn't anything wrong with modern, compact weaponry. Collapsable stocks on rifles are great for different sized people. Night sights, lasers, and lights are all perfect for low light scenarios because hey, 12 hours out of the day are dark :)

.38 Special
October 3, 2006, 11:16 PM
Actually, I'm liking the microwave idea. You know, in case you get the munchies while foiling a terrorist plot.

I figure those "tactical" pants ought to hold at least half a dozen "Hungry Man" dinners.

Sunray
October 3, 2006, 11:25 PM
There's no such thing as a 'tactical' rifle, flashlight, sling, rifle case, knife or underwear. The word 'tactical' when applied to anything firearm or shooting related is the current marketing buzz word, nothing more. It's occasionally defined as anything black with velcro. Just like my $8Cdn Chinese made runners.
The marketing buzz word used to be 'police'. Winchester made a Model 70A Police in .308. It was a parkerized M70 with an oiled stock. Now, it'd be called a Win Model 70A Tactical. It was, and still is, just a Model 70 with a different finish.

Wesker
October 3, 2006, 11:25 PM
NATO standards are Hot Pockets due to weight concerns. Sure, back in dubya dubya EYE EYE the good ol' boys toted 15 Swanson TV dinners. But now everything's changed.

DRMMR02
October 3, 2006, 11:27 PM
You may be able to carry more Hot Pockets, but they are underpowered. We should switch back to the Swanson.

.38 Special
October 3, 2006, 11:30 PM
ROFLMAO!

Wesker
October 3, 2006, 11:31 PM
Pfft, typical Swanson fanboys. I can churn out about four Hot Pockets before you have to peel the wrapper off the turkey :P

Ok, this is just getting silly.

SigfanUSAF
October 3, 2006, 11:35 PM
So if you go back to that M4 torture test thread, would a hot pocket or a Swanson cook faster if held above the flash hider?

.38 Special
October 3, 2006, 11:35 PM
Ok, this is just getting silly.
Which is as it should be. Everybody switch back to blue jeans and stop frightening the antis.

"He looks like he's hoping he gets to shoot someone!" :cool:

Gewehr98
October 3, 2006, 11:45 PM
And what's wrong with bayonets, lights, bipods, betamags, QD swivels, padded slings, scopes, stowaway grips and lasers?

But, c'mon, dude, a Rush shirt? So 1980's, most of us outgrew that phase or at a minimum stayed with Led Zeppelin. I got rid of my Rush tablature around 1986, and those particular notes will never grace my Mosrite. Damn, I used to have a little respect for ya before I saw that. :o

Free Alex (Lifeson) Zivojinovic from police brutality! It was Alex Lifeson Disease that got him into trouble, he couldn't help it! :D

http://www.dinosaurrockguitar.com/dinothinking.shtml#ALDisease

madmike
October 3, 2006, 11:47 PM
I still have my BDUs drycleaned.

You know, I spent 14 of 16 years in the AF (since I came in when we had fatigues, before we went "Tactical") beating on people about that.

The BDUs, per reg and mfr spec, DO NOT get ironed, starched, bleached or exposed to temperatures above 130f during cleaning.

Doing so renders them unserviceable and NON tactical.

Biggest sign of a poser;)

You don't wear BDUs to look neat. They are a COMBAT UNIFORM.

Geronimo45
October 3, 2006, 11:49 PM
BDUs - like a zip-up camoflauge suit, they don't work so good after being washed. Dry cleaning is a lot easier on the material, and allows it to last longer and stay more comfortable.

madmike
October 3, 2006, 11:52 PM
But, c'mon, dude, a Rush shirt? So 1980's, most of us outgrew that phase or at a minimum stayed with Led Zeppelin. I used to have a little respect for ya before I saw that.

Lifeson is far more effective than Page. Sure, you can have that 1960s style guitar, but a MODERN guitar is lighter, faster and provides just as much decibel per hour. The Les Paul is simply overpowered for most concert halls, while the PRS allows a longer performance on stage. Logistics, man, logistics! Besides, it takes detachable strings instead of clip-loaded ones...

Wesker
October 3, 2006, 11:53 PM
But, c'mon, dude, a Rush shirt? So 1980's, most of us outgrew that phase or at a minimum stayed with Led Zeppelin. I got rid of my Rush tablature around 1986 because Geddy Lee is a bass virtuoso and I could never hope to play his music, and those particular notes will never grace my Mosrite. Damn, I used to have a little respect for ya before I saw that

Fixed :evil:

P.S. I've been teaching myself to play bass on a rinky dink Fender Squire for about a month now. How'd you learn?

You know, I spent 14 of 16 years in the AF (since I came in when we had fatigues, before we went "Tactical") beating on people about that.

The BDUs, per reg and mfr spec, DO NOT get ironed, starched, bleached or exposed to temperatures above 130f during cleaning.


Eeeh, 36-2903 states BDU's are to be pressed and serviceable. It does say not to startch them however. Something to do with destroying their ability to hide your body heat from infrared and reducing their ability to shield you from class-A radiation particles.

madmike
October 3, 2006, 11:53 PM
BDUs - like a zip-up camoflauge suit, they don't work so good after being washed. Dry cleaning is a lot easier on the material, and allows it to last longer and stay more comfortable.

Dry cleaning is authorized...but hard to do in the field.

SigfanUSAF
October 3, 2006, 11:53 PM
Yeah, but nothing beats those Oriental ladies at Sheppard AFB, the CREASES from STARCHING would actually crack:eek: Had to start going off base, or wash (COLD) mine then IRON:what: I assure you, altering my BDUs in this way never made me any more visible on the flightline.

.38 Special
October 3, 2006, 11:58 PM
Thread highjacking complete. Well done!

madmike
October 4, 2006, 12:04 AM
I actually had guitar lessons from the guitarist for Head East, and guitar and bass lessons in Rantoul, IL by a very good instructor, then picked up keyboard a bit by myself.

Let's NOT start on keyboard vs guitar.:banghead: :D

lionking
October 4, 2006, 12:12 AM
lol!..madmike.

well about the only time you'll ever see me "dressed for success" in BDUs and web belts with ammo pouches will be if the shtf ever really happens.Some post alot of things about shtf,like it will be a adventure in Red Dawn or something.BDUs are comfortable but I refuse to wear them to a public range just because of possibly looking like a wannabe warrior.

I have a Armson sight on a AR15,not against gadgets,lights and stuff but the more you put on your warrior rifle the more can break.Flashlights,for home defense sounds reasonable.Personally a front handle on the AR15 looks ugly and useless.But too each their own.

I've just seen some people who immediately put dots,scopes and whatever on a rifle and never bother to practice with open sights,which I think people should learn open sight marksmanship even if they add on stuff latter.One thing I like about the Armson on the AR15 it allows me to use either the reddot or open sights.

Just give me a stock M14 and I'll feel real secure.:D

*edit*...hey madmike,let me go off topic a minute with 'ya and show you my *tactical* music gear.I need a LesPaul in the battery,but when I do it wont have a flashlight attached lol!

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k246/musicnut_2006/my%20gear/th_100_0538.jpg (http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k246/musicnut_2006/my%20gear/100_0538.jpg)

Gewehr98
October 4, 2006, 12:12 AM
Lifeson just plain pussed-out after 1983's Signals, and became an accompanist. Sad, because I know the old bird could probably belt 'em out if given the chance.

BTW, don't screw with my Mosrite. My Fender Icehouse Squier Strat is fair game for ridicule, but I searched long and hard, and spent a goodly amount of my saved TDY per diem, to find an original Mosrite in excellent condition.

I just retired after 20+ years in the Air Force. I had my BDUs dry-cleaned and pressed, no starch please, but only because washing them faded the camo. I started out my career wearing the green fatigues, and at least those were both comfortable and easy to work with. After we got BDUs I wore them maybe once a month on squadron Warrior Day or when I didn't feel like wearing Nomex. (Yearly flight physicals with the prostrate exam, etc.) Otherwise it was the green bag, issued free of charge by Uncle Sam. None of us really cared for the BDU uniform, all the patches, rank, cost to maintain, fading, blousing, etc. I still have a set in the closet, but only because I haven't made that trip to Goodwill I keep putting off. I have no desire to play commando, I had a military uniform for a good chunk of my life, and find it actually funny as hell that folks want to emulate that, wanting to be all badass and such. Go sign on the dotted line and do your time in Ickystan. Then check back with me and see how much you want to wear BDUs on your day off.

As for tactical wannabees and poseurs, yeah, we'll never be rid of them. I see poseurs all the time - on Harleys that are spotless, drinking cappucino while the bike is on a lift at the local dealership having the oil changed, or showing up at the range with something like this:

http://mauser98.com/rooney-m4.jpg

I met Jeff Cooper once. I'll never forget what he said. "It's not what you can do, but what you can do on demand..."

Lee Lapin, SM, you speak wisdom. Somebody with the right training and mindset is going to win the encounter with a barebones gun long before a poseur with the above Rooney Gun ever knew what hit him. Toys don't equal experience, nor can you buy experience and attach it to your M4gery.

carpediem
October 4, 2006, 12:30 AM
I guess I'll play the devil's advocate for a little *ducks behind up-armored class 17 kevler bi-composite plates w/ titanium inserts* :neener:

Disclaimer: I do not own anything remotely tactical (ok, well maybe my modded flashlights and spyderco knives, but these are useful vestiges from my high school years, I swear!!! :D ).

I tend to agree that gadgetry is no substitute for experience in general

However, I wouldn't want to place bets on a expert marksman in the dark v.s. a beginner w/ 'tactiCOOL' night vision :evil:

My point is, experience isn't everything: there are some situations where dedicated tools can be worth morth than experience.

Having said that, I firmly believe that experience is worth more than gadgetry at least 98% of the time, which is why I'd rather buy a case of 22lr for the range than a $$$ tactical bipod for a CQC gun.

statelineblues
October 4, 2006, 12:30 AM
There's a gun in there..............? :eek:

Logan5
October 4, 2006, 12:41 AM
"Tactical" stuff is objectionable mainly because 1) it's a crass, unabashed marketing campaign that plays to our fetish for gadgets, and 2) it's at the expense of the "Strategic".
If I miss the electric bill to buy a night vision scope for the AR, and figure that the combination of the two puts the criminal at a disadvantage, that's pretty Tactical, but not very Strategic.
Now, I bought a Surefire forend for my 870 back when Surefire was still Laser Products Corp, and it's spiffy, and I love cool toys on principle, but I don't doubt for a minute that people in the firearm accessories market nowadays aren't laughing themselves silly as they count the money. Lots of things that greatly enhance the effectiveness of an infantry squad in Iraq have absolutely no value to me in my everyday life, and I'm going to burn enough money getting my children an education, I don't need H&K mags and a night vision optic for my AR right now, and I'm not at all sure that I'm as good as dead if so much as an acorn falls off a tree because I haven't bought them yet.

Sam
October 4, 2006, 01:01 AM
Not hostile towards it at all, just sick from teh smell of the flat black and OD spray bombs:D

About 99% of it is hogwash anyway. Spend your money on more ammo and get in some quality practice.

Sam

mustanger98
October 4, 2006, 01:06 AM
Okay, this question of why is "tactical" (or "tacticool") hated... not all of us like black or plastic as was mentioned and "tactical" means we employ tactics. The mind is the weapon while the equipment is just a set of tools. Someone mentioned if you're not good enough with a plain vanilla 870... I figure those of us who know how can employ just as effective a set of tactics using a '94 Winchester .30-30 or M1 Garand as the guys with the M4's can, and sometimes better, depending on the mindset. .45 vs. 9mm... again, it's a choice of tools and it varies one individual to the next. Somebody's sig line mention a 1.5" guardrail nut on a string... something about it not being the latestgreatestsuperdooper tacticool, but if somebody gets hit in the head with it, they'll be repeating kindergarten.

Now that the thread's been properly hijacked, my plan in about 2 weeks is that I shall don my tactical (black) Resistol hat, tactical (Shadow Canyon) Wranglers, and hunter safety orange (which fairly negates camo), take my old .30-30 out, consider my tactical options and set up an ambush for the monster Whitetail buck who's probably grown up studying my tactics for most of the last eight years. Or maybe I won't change my blue ProRodeo jeans for black because tactically, it won't make any difference because the deer are colorblind and I'm not worried one way or the other what the anti's think in this regard. (And for several places I used "tactical" in this paragraph, it really should be "strategic".)

SoCalShooter
October 4, 2006, 01:07 AM
Tactical sells well because it sounds elite. I do purchase some tactical equipment but its all got a purpose that I use it for. But I do not purchase based on the fact it says its tactical, a flashlight mounted on your weapon is just that "a flashlight mounted on your weapon" just because swat and other special units use it does not make it better or tactical.

BullfrogKen
October 4, 2006, 01:31 AM
DRMMR02 said: A LEO posted in the "fad" thread that he liked having a mounted light on his pistol because it allowed him to open doors or use his radio while keeping a suspect illuminated and secured. Why can this not also apply to non-LEOs? Is there something wrong with wanting a free hand when dealing with a bad guy? What if one wants to be on the phone to 911 but doesnt want to put down the light or his weapon? Is there some rule that says "A simple pistol and flashlight are all a civilian can use to protect his family"? . . . . . With the right training and know-how, there is no reason for an average Joe not to have them if he wants.

I agree they ought not be restricted.

I have a personal issue with pistol mounted lights. Its simply because I don't know if the user has thought through, and made the informed decision, that the tendancy to use a gun with a light as a flashlight is a hard urge to resist.


No rule, no "you can't". I'd just like to see the situation acknowledged, and appropriate actions taken to deal with it.

madmike
October 4, 2006, 02:15 AM
Lifeson just plain pussed-out after 1983's Signals, and became an accompanist. Sad, because I know the old bird could probably belt 'em out if given the chance.

Ah, you should have started listening again in the 90s. And always live. Actually, the late 80s, they BUILT chords across four instruments. It's hard to play any of that stuff without a full ensemble.

And don't try to out-tactical me on guitar until you have a custom made 10 string:


And fatigues more comfortable than BDUs? Well...it's an opinion. Let's not start on stupid uniform decisions or we'll eat up 20 pages.

And you do realize I could turn out Surefire bodies and heads on my lathe for about $3 each? Getting the reflectors cast would cost a little more, but not much. End cost on those is likely $10/unit when they're done, $20 for the integral mounts they sell for $300.

And their "customer service" is the same kind of service a bull gives a cow.:eek:

redneck2
October 4, 2006, 07:58 AM
Bad news, dude: the odds of you saving the world and impressing chicks by foiling a terrorist plot with your NVG and pants-with-lots-of-pockets are pretty slim. And you look like a dork when you go to the Piggly-Wiggly.
LMAO....pretty much sums it up. Think I'm gonna steal this for my sig line.

strambo
October 4, 2006, 09:28 AM
already have a good supply of black "Tactical" toothpicks, "Tactical" toothbrush, "Tactical" potatoes (they don't smell too good, but they are black), and "Tactical" soap.

Now I'm going to my "Tactical" bed. Black, for sure.

Black? Shah, that's so pre-OIF. It's all about "Coyote Tan" now. It's the new "black".;) I own lots of coyote tan gear...but i'm in my second "sanbox" so I guess it's OK for now.:uhoh: Have to sell it all and get a 30-30 and a blaze orange shootin' vest before everyone thinks I'm a poser when I get back!:D

I dig cargo pants, which are popular and unless you are a "gunny" 5.11s are just khaki cargos to everyone else. IMO 5.11s, shoes other than combat boots and a polo = OK. 5.11s, combat boots and obnoxious gun T-shirt= too "tacticool" for school.

madmike
October 4, 2006, 09:33 AM
It's all about "Coyote Tan" now.

Calling coyote brown "Coyote Tan" is tacticool...;)

strambo
October 4, 2006, 09:41 AM
Yeah, I think the companies thought simply "coyote" was too obscure, the more proper "coyote brown" not descriptive enough for the layman (who might not think it's good for desert environs). Last year I noticed most companies calling it "coyote tan". Anyhoo, I actually like the color and as a backpack as it blends in with civilian oriented stuff better, isn't tacky like a camo pattern and doesn't standout as much except to people in the Tacticool club.

madmike
October 4, 2006, 10:54 AM
Opinion:

Wearing digital garbage unless the military has ordered you to is tacticool.

Especially since few people wearing it have any idea WHY digital patterns were created, and the inherent flaws in them.

03Shadowbob
October 4, 2006, 12:09 PM
Madmike,
Nice shirt in the last pic! :D

madmike
October 4, 2006, 12:15 PM
I forgot I was wearing that one:) I Actually still have it.

But it's black, so it's tacticool.

BTW: I wore all black BEFORE it was tacticool.:)

Manedwolf
October 4, 2006, 12:16 PM
Tactical shoud refer to extensive training and expertise. Instead, it refers mostly to made-in-China copies of things that special forces of trained soldiers might use, or that looks like that they might use.

It's like expecting that buying a super deluxe $1000 paintbrush will make you able to paint a masterpiece, without any art schooling, training, or practice.

And thus, it's become a parody. It conjures up images of terribly out-of-shape people in mismatched camo with tactical gear on a tactical single-shot shotgun with a tactical light and a tactical belt and tactical shirt emblazoned with the logo of some military unit they never served in.

It seems to mostly refer to people who want to play solider or cop, and really should not.

madmike
October 4, 2006, 12:34 PM
tactical gear on a tactical single-shot shotgun with a tactical light

Yes, that has to be one of the gayest things out there, with "gay" meaning "ludicrously stupid."

A "Tactical" single shot that costs more than a basic pump.

But it has to be painted digital urban to be REALLY tactical:neener:

Rezin
October 4, 2006, 01:00 PM
I own zero "tactical" gear at the moment. I do want a light for my HD shotgun, and Maybe a sidesaddle. Thats about as tactical as I think I need.

Other than that, I am pretty non tactical..... I agree with the previous comment on many of the "over tac" guys are possible compensating :D I think, if you need it, and you actually use it, it's not poserific, lol. If you don't need it, never use it, but buy it anyway... Well.......... You know... :neener:

It's like some pics I have seen where there are folks posing with thier weapons in a house/apt. Tactical posing for the camera, lol. Now, action pics on the range, sure! I like to see those shots, but I KNOW you have seen some of these other pics. Hilarious!


Example:
http://www.animesucks.com/stupid/ninja.jpg

madmike
October 4, 2006, 01:18 PM
Maybe a sidesaddle.

I actually regard that as one of the most ludicrous armchair tacticool stunts out there.

Lessee..ruin the resale value of a weapon by drilling holes in the receiver, to attach a device that can interfere with the cycling (happens all the time--those pins/bolts through the receiver bind on the mechanicals), which probably won't drop rounds all over the place from recoil (seen that happen a lot, too)...

I have a stock caddy, elastic, $6. Holds 5. No damage to weapon, no interfering with cycle, enclosure means no dropped rounds, adds weight to the butt where it's needed, doesn't cost a lot of money.

And besides, what's the likelihood that that 8 rounds of buck/slug already in the weapon won't be enough? If I belt something with four slugs at 3500 ft lbs and 36 .38 balls and it doesn't go down, I can't see having time to reload. It's butt stroking time.

Who's attacking my house here? A Marine Expeditionary Force?:eek:

Gewehr98
October 4, 2006, 04:00 PM
Lessee..ruin the resale value of a weapon by drilling holes in the receiver, to attach a device that can interfere with the cycling (happens all the time--those pins/bolts through the receiver bind on the mechanicals)

All the sidesaddle shell holders I've seen simply replaced the action pins with longer ones, no permanent modifications to the gun. I don't use them myself, since my 870Mk1 house gun has an 8-round magazine, but they look a lot like this:

http://www.gunaccessories.com/TacticalShotgun/Sidesaddle/SidesaddleShotshellCarrier.asp

madmike
October 4, 2006, 04:12 PM
Okay, that's one less strike. I still prefer having them on the butt.

BobTheTomato
October 4, 2006, 04:21 PM
I just think all of the gear is funny. It is just like the guy who puts 2000 dollar rims and a big loudner pipe on his 500 dollar honda. I get a giggle out of it. If it makes people happy spending their money on it then so be it.

weregunner
October 4, 2006, 04:44 PM
Let's be realistic here. There are good reasons for some of the gear that goes on many of our firearms and then there is useless stuff. How many people are going to train as hard or have the money to train to the standard of advanced gunnery that all that equipment was designed for? Lets face it. What the soldiers over in Iraq and Afghanistan use has special purpose equipment for specail needs. We will not be using squad or platoon tactics in fighting the criminals. Nor are we trained to the degree of special forces or to the degree of highly trained troops who have to fight as a team or using initiative to complete the mission. Some of what the troops use can be used on civilian firearms. Others are a complete waste of time and money. Simple basic equipment and tactics are what is needed when ones and others lives are on the line. Are you trained to a high degree when your body does the fight or flight adrenalin dump? We are only as good as our training and will fight like we trained ,if at all. Complex equipment and tactics will not help if one is not schooled in using them. Technology is no substitute for little or no training. How many of us really have the skill to use the equipment and tactics. I read, have military training and have had a street education on weapons and tactics due to wear I used to live and had to get much experience the hard way. I do not feel qualified for every contigency one might have to face and will always be learning. My budget and time constraints. like many others,does not allow for advanced class training. Tacticool I will not do. If a tactic or piece of equipment gives me a real world edge and I can train and not clutter up my gun of choice,then I will use it. That is my humble opinion. Take a true and honest look and ask yourself if you really need it or are trained to take advantage of the gadgets out here. Good luck and stay safe. Honest appraisels can be hard to do.

Keith Wheeler
October 4, 2006, 04:56 PM
I used to have a 'scope on one of my rifles. I took it off.

redneck2
October 4, 2006, 05:13 PM
How does wearing 5.11 pants and a tac-vest differ from guys who do Civil War reenacting?Because the first guy looks like a nerd from 2006???

I know a guy that does the Civil War thing. We try to laugh at him in an authentic 1860's manner.

I used to have a 'scope on one of my rifles. I took it off.
I'm lost on this one. I've got scopes on lotsa my rifles. There for a reason. How are you gonna hit a prarie dog at 500 yards without one???

Waitone
October 4, 2006, 06:14 PM
I disllike cheesy marketing.

"Tactical" is cheesy, herd marketing. Same for "extreme". I will buy nothing touting "extreme".

Manedwolf
October 4, 2006, 06:43 PM
What, what? You mean this is cheesy marketing? :evil:

http://www.aguns.net/images/570_xtreme.jpg

BTW, it's even better if it's eXtreme or XTREME!

Waitone
October 4, 2006, 06:46 PM
Pretty much!

ezypikns
October 4, 2006, 07:10 PM
so I don't dress like it. I'm not a cowboy....so I don't dress like it. Or a fireman, or a POLICE OFFICER. What people wear is their own business, but I'm too old to play dress up any more. And dressing up is, in some cases, what 'Tactical' seems to be about.

The original poster said it best:

Tools are just tools

If it works, use it. If it doesn't, don't

carterbeauford
October 4, 2006, 07:14 PM
I just ate a tactical lunch.

That's right, tactical food is next. Consider yourselves warned.

mustanger98
October 4, 2006, 08:09 PM
That's right, tactical food is next. Consider yourselves warned.

:confused: :uhoh: Projectile vomitting comes to mind...:uhoh: :eek:

Ash
October 4, 2006, 10:10 PM
It's already here. How many guys do you see buying cases of MRE's???

I use them for backpacking or work, to be sure, but some folks...

Ash

Hawk
October 4, 2006, 10:44 PM
The adjective "tactical" simply became so overused as to lose all meaning. It started to remind me of Cooper's disparaging comments about "digital".

Imagine my chagrin when I learned my flashlight was both Tactical and Digital.

A flashlight?! C'mon.
Shoes? Shirt? What's next?
Pencil sharpener, vacuum cleaner, pajamas?

What differentiates a tactical folding knife from a non-tactical version? Ten bucks?

My distaste for "tactical" is strictly the result of overused marketing. I've no issues with dinosaur juice handguns or black paint. It should, however, be noted that "light weight" is not always an advantage. As someone else pointed out, a polymer stocked light weight .416 Rigby is probably not on everybody's "must have" list.

Given two similar products, I gravitate to the one that doesn't have "tactical" in the description as I appreciate not being deemed an idiot by somebody's marketing drones.

madmike
October 4, 2006, 11:04 PM
"Tactical" knives with a chisel edge on the WRONG SIDE.

"But that's the side people look at when it's on the table."

"Tactical" knives that are a block of steel wrapped in cord, with no shape or ergonomics for $300.

Geronimo45
October 4, 2006, 11:11 PM
Coyote tan is now tactical? Well, if I ain't the trend-setter! And I just got the wallet and sheath in it so as not to look like a mall ninja.

LanEvo`
October 4, 2006, 11:23 PM
Probably the main reason why "serious gun-folk" are skeptical about the whole tactical craze is that it seems to represent an excessive focus on equipment rather than skill.

For example, I'm a high-performance driving instructor in my other life. Though we run events on race tracks, the idea is to teach people how to be better, safer, and more aware on the street. You always see these young guys who refuse to set foot on the track until their car is "modded" to all get-out. They show up with full coil-over racing suspensions, gumball racing slicks, big brake kits, race seats plus harnesses, and thousands of dollars worth of engine modifications...yet they don't know how to drive the car even when it was stock! They've spent all their time, energy, and money on building up their cars rather than learning how to use them properly. They end up looking a little foolish when a middle-aged guy in a stock 1968 BMW 2002tii with a lousy 100hp runs circles around them.

It's the same with a lot of the tactical guys. Some of them show up at the range with better equipment than SEAL Team Six, but they can't keep 10 shots on the paper at 10 yards. It's a bit silly.

madmike
October 4, 2006, 11:24 PM
http://www.gunaccessories.com/ShotgunStocks/HRN4100.jpg
:what:
:eek:
:banghead:
http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/anim_rofl2.gif

mustanger98
October 4, 2006, 11:28 PM
Now I'm wondering if that H&R's a shotgun or a HandiRifle. Either way, I doubt it'll do anything a stock Topper, HandiRifle, or Buffalo Special won't do.

madmike
October 4, 2006, 11:30 PM
That's a 12 gauge topper.

$100 of single shot.

$325 of crap.

lionking
October 4, 2006, 11:34 PM
having just browsed a thread based on "shtf",and like I said too each their own and their are those members here who have or are seeing combat(I have not)....I've got to ask to what good effect would a bipod do on a M4 carbine?


Will all the members here who are or were deployed to Iraq, Afghanistan or the Phillipines and was issued a rifle give a rundown about all the attached gear that we see on M16s and M4s.Has the gear,scopes,dots,lights,lasers and such been battleworthy,reliable and effective?What has worked good,what has failed?

funny that a generation saw the M16 as matel toy,while these days a generation are use to the M16 while seeing all the current dudads attached to the M16 as a overzealous attempt of a space gun.

mustanger98
October 4, 2006, 11:38 PM
That's a 12 gauge topper.

Good gun from way back... killed a lot of game and a lot of kids learned to shoot with it.

$100 of single shot.

Good deal. The SB2 HandiRifle version costs a mite more though. I don't believe I'd feel undergunned with any H&R of that type.

$325 of crap.

Big mistake. Big waste of money that could've bought a lot of 12guage slugs, buckshot, and birdshot. I won't lose any sleep over not having one.

Hawk
October 4, 2006, 11:39 PM
I hate it when I blow carbonated beverages out my nose.

Game, set and match to Mad Mike and the tactical single.
:D

mustanger98
October 4, 2006, 11:41 PM
funny that a generation saw the M16 as matel toy,while these days a generation are use to the M16 while seeing all the current dudads attached to the M16 as a overzealous attempt of a space gun.

I'm 32 years old. I've always been a civilian and private citizen. I don't like M-16/M4 and I sure ain't gonna hang all the doodads all over my rifle. M1 Garand, M1A/M-14, and stock Mini-14 is about as close to "tactical" as I get. That's just me.

madmike
October 4, 2006, 11:49 PM
A bipod on an M4 is of use for sniping or support as a designated marksman. That's very few people.

"Normal" accessories include a reflex sight to improve snap shooting and peripheral vision, a light for illuminating dark rooms or any room if it's bright sunlight outside. Also may include night vision or thermal imaging, a laser. Side mounted or single point slings are common and useful.

That's also for clearing houses in a war zone. My house M4 has an EoTech and a light. I'm not likely to use the Eotech inside the house. Illuminate, identify, bang.

And I don't expect I'll need more than 1 20 round magazine.

Hawk
October 5, 2006, 12:04 AM
Speculation: Without the "tactical" craze, would there be such a thriving market for fake suppressors?

For the longest time, I couldn't even hazard a guess as to what point a fake can might serve, but I guess if one bought a plastic gun and actually missed the weight associated with steel, screwing on a fake can is as good a means of bolting on weight as any, I suppose.

lionking
October 5, 2006, 12:07 AM
I hear you mustanger.I ask in earnest,because for the most part I use stock rifles,so I can't personally attest to whether everything I see attached to rifles these days are a waste or not.I suppose it depends on certain tactical situations.

Reflex sights,scopes,trijicon sights,I know these things can give better accuracy and quick acquisition.But on some of the photos I see coming out some weapons have 2,3,4 things attached to it.Does it make it that much better than a stock M16 or M4?

What I said about not wanting to look like a wannabe warrior at a public range.I have from time to time away from everybody geared up with BDU and ammo pouches,practiced like that (still does'nt make me a expert).Fire behind obsticles,practice magazine changing in awkward positions,fire and manuver ,simulate primary weapon failure to pistol,different target positions.

But how would I really act when threatened with death?I dont know.

lionking
October 5, 2006, 12:11 AM
mike I understand about the use of a bipod...but why on a carbine which a carbine is for handiness and not so much for longer distance accuracy.Would'nt a marksman be better with a 20inch M16 or larger caliber weapon.

ps mike.Rush is my favorite band

MisterPX
October 5, 2006, 12:43 AM
A bipod comes in handy for overwatch, observation, and as a forward grip. As to all the crap we have hanging off our rifles, can you hit a target at 250M in the dark? With the M68, PVS14's and the PEQ2, we can. And if it's up close, that's what the surefire is for. Is it a lot of stuff Joe schmo probably wouldn't ordinarily use? Probably, but even Joe schmo has some unordinary times now and then.

madmike
October 5, 2006, 01:15 AM
Lionking: if the unit's standard issue is carbine, you work with what you've got. And the M4 IS more compact, though not compact enough for certain fields (photographers, for example, would often rather have a pistol).

A 14.5" 5.56 platform is not ideal for precision shooting, but if you're covering your buddy as he investigates a driver at a check point, for example, while keeping hard cover yourself, it's a nice thing to have. And I recommend Harris bipods.

hankdatank1362
October 5, 2006, 01:37 AM
If I have an Uncle Mikes nylon holster hot glued to my porcelain throne, does that mean I have a tactical toilet? (Or does it have to be Kydex?)

Men in general love gizmos and gadgets. They love having things that make them better (or think they're better) than someone without them.

I know I do.

You know you do.

Every major marketing department out there damn sure knows it, too.

Reminds me of an article I read, by an author eating all the new foods marketed as being x-treme, like CORN NUTS GONE WRONG, XTREME YOGURT, etc.

THe only thing XTREME about his experience was the XTREME dump he took afterward.

madmike
October 5, 2006, 01:44 AM
Dave's Insanity Sauce
Stupid Hot
Hellfire and Damnation Hot Sauce
Pact with the Devil Hot Sauce...

stuff no sane person can tolerate in more than a drop (Which is their marketing), that sells.

Though I am partial to Scorned Woman Hot Sauce. Tasty.

Someone needs to package Tactical Hot Sauce (not the MRE bottles, though that's not a bad idea), but mount it with a rail clip.

Oh, anyone seen the rail mounts for BELTS so you can store your accessories, a la the Batbelt?:barf:

Hawk
October 5, 2006, 01:47 AM
If I have an Uncle Mikes nylon holster hot glued to my porcelain throne, does that mean I have a tactical toilet? (Or does it have to be Kydex?)

You need one of these (http://www.sani-soft.com/heated.html) from our friends at Hogue. In desert tan. With the electric heater.

Geronimo45
October 5, 2006, 01:53 AM
From your link:
"Easy to Clean - Can be safely put in the dishwasher!"
Now THAT'S tactical.

DRMMR02
October 5, 2006, 01:53 AM
Someone needs to package Tactical Hot Sauce (not the MRE bottles, though that's not a bad idea), but mount it with a rail clip.

Only if it comes in a flat black bottle and costs $200

lionking
October 5, 2006, 01:53 AM
misterpx,madmike...agreed and understand.

having just remembered something,I have a friend who has a Bushmaster Dissapator carbine.In the prone position I get as good or better groupings with it then my Hbar.This is,with stock sights and the Dissapator has a different sight radius than a M4 which helps.Past a 100yds,my Hbar does better.

44AMP
October 5, 2006, 01:59 AM
I'm one of the old geezers that finds the whole idea laughable. Overhyped, "extreme" or what ever you want to call it. Maybe it is something to do with my age. I don't really care for the whole LEO Ninja approach. I grew up in a time when honest men didn't hide their faces (except for the Lone Ranger). In an earlier time, guys with coal scuttle helmets, black uniforms, and submachine guns were the enemy. Of course, in those days, the black uniforms had lightning bolts on them.

As far as re-enactors being in their "uniforms", that to me is different. Whether mountain man, civil war, or even WWII, they are re-enacting historical scenarios. Re-creating the past. Not "wannabe"-ing the present.

Also, the fact that virtually everthing is being called "tactical". This is a clear misuse of language. Sadly, we do this so much these days.

Buy, and hang whatever goofy things you want off your rifle and shotgun. I would not recommend a light on a civilian's handgun though. Only because, where you point the light, you point the gun. This is not proper for a civilian. Even at home. Especially at home. While I am not convinced it is a good thing for a LEO, I am certain it is not a good thing for civilians. Gun and a flashlight, yes. Gun is a flashlight, no.

I know there are some of you out there who are not LEOs, but train and train, so you wouldn't have a problem. But what about all the others, who don't train like that, just buy a pistol with a built on flashlight. Noise at night, grab gun/light, investigate, pointing gun everywhere with the light. Not good. Lasers are gun sights you can see in the dark. Flashlights should not be gunsights, the potental for trouble is too great.

As for clothes, wear what you like, I don't care. Unless you are impersonating an officer. Then you reap what you sow.

DRMMR02
October 5, 2006, 02:15 AM
I'm one of the old geezers that finds the whole idea laughable. Overhyped, "extreme" or what ever you want to call it. Maybe it is something to do with my age. I don't really care for the whole LEO Ninja approach. I grew up in a time when honest men didn't hide their faces (except for the Lone Ranger). In an earlier time, guys with coal scuttle helmets, black uniforms, and submachine guns were the enemy. Of course, in those days, the black uniforms had lightning bolts on them.

But how often in that earlier time did police have to deal with people like this?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v367/CymPimpin/lapdani.gif

That's the famous "North Hollywood Shootout" in 1997 where Larry Eugene Phillips and Emil Matasareanu fired over 1100 in the span of 44 minutes wounding 14 people, 12 police officers and 2 civilians.

madmike
October 5, 2006, 02:31 AM
I don't see anything there a Winchester Model 70 in .458 Winchester can't handle...

or .375, for that matter.

Or a HEAD SHOT with a pistol instead of all those center mass shots they were making.

230RN
October 5, 2006, 03:30 AM
Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you, all.

Now I don't feel so bad about just sticking my old .45 in my belt at 9 o'clock without a holster.

Whew!

bad LT
October 5, 2006, 04:28 AM
I am better than tactical...

I am stratigic:D

strambo
October 5, 2006, 08:28 AM
Will all the members here who are or were deployed to Iraq, Afghanistan or the Phillipines and was issued a rifle give a rundown about all the attached gear that we see on M16s and M4s.Has the gear,scopes,dots,lights,lasers and such been battleworthy,reliable and effective?What has worked good,what has failed?


The Army usually issues a weaponlight, foregrip, M68 CCO (aimpoint) and PAQ2 or PAQ4 IR laser. The aimpoint/foregrip work well-self explanitory.

The IR laser is for either hitting or marking targets at night. With night vision you can shoot with the aimpoint CCO so the laser isn't necessary. They are a bit fragile, so they can break when soldiers leave them mounted for the whole tour and they get banged around. The surefire weaponlight itself is sturdy and good, but the IR cap ($70 item) often gets cracked eventually when it is left mounted all the time.

My M4 only has an ACOG on it. I actually get funny looks and was almost ordered to put all that crap on. There is an Army mindset carried over from when there wasn't enough gear that you have to have everything all the time.

My job isn't room clearing, or fighting at all but advising the Afghan Army and leading them in combat if need be. I like my carbine to balance well. If I have to clear a room, I can a) use my hand-held surefire, or b) take 5 seconds to mount my weaponlight. It would also take 5 seconds to mount my PAQ4 laser...I get advanced notice before it gets dark every day!:D I carry the extra crap (er-tacticool gear) in my assault pack, so I have it with me.

I couldn't tell you why the bipod...and a foregrip? Sheesh, decide if your a "sniper-ninja" or a "CQB Death Warrior" and pick one.:uhoh: "Designated marksman"...well my M4 only does about 2 MOA with 4X ACOG and non-match ammo at 100yds and I'm a darn good shot. I'd bet the guys with the bipods and Aimpoints/Eotechs aren't gonna be shooting well enough that resting on the magazine (or pack, etc...) wouldn't have worked just as well. Now, in the chow hall, a bipod is quite handy for your weapon to sit on the floor.;)

madmike
October 5, 2006, 09:01 AM
I get advanced notice before it gets dark every day!

Man. My officers are too screwed up to get that right.;)

Now, in the chow hall, a bipod is quite handy for your weapon to sit on the floor.

And THAT is a practical use.

I want to know what kind of ate up wannabe has a "forward assist" on his M16:neener: Some people will buy ANY gadget.

Manedwolf
October 5, 2006, 11:09 AM
Pencil sharpener, vacuum cleaner, pajamas?


Tactical vacuum! They'll never see it coming. Plus it's made by the same people who make the PackBots they're using in Iraq!

http://irbt.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pG01-3092930p275w.jpg

Quote:
Someone needs to package Tactical Hot Sauce (not the MRE bottles, though that's not a bad idea), but mount it with a rail clip.

Only if it comes in a flat black bottle and costs $200

Careful what you wish for. It exists.

http://extremefood.com/images/products/16millionreserve_l.jpg

Blair's 16 million scoville unit reserve. $199 a bottle.

Eightball
October 5, 2006, 11:23 AM
Why hostile towards "tactical"?

Ever hear of the "mall ninja"?

Unless you are in the military or on a SWAT team, the idea of needing a breaching shotgun hung underneath your "3x the power of the SUN" flashlights (yes, plural), with your tactical laser AND holosight AND ACOG AND scope, next to the vertical foregrip and "tactical quick release harness", so you can drop your gun faster---it just seems humerous.

But, if you want to deck out your weapons until they weigh 2x as much as anyone with any sense would use them, go for it. That's what makes America great.

I'll stick with my hog-leg.

madmike
October 5, 2006, 11:37 AM
The light actually makes a certain amount of sense...IF you intend a momentary flash for target ID and then shoot.

Walking around with a light on so the bad guy knows where you are, and can use the weapon as a target to hit you center mass does not.

strambo
October 5, 2006, 02:04 PM
Ummm, please disregard my earlier post where I stated I had tacticool "coyote tan" gear. :o Silly me, I usually think about important stuff like how many .50 AP rounds the latest "dragon skin" armor can stop and forget about colors.

Anyway, "coyote" tan, brown whatever is sooooo '04.:rolleyes: What I really have is "flat dark earth" color. Yeah, that's the new coyote brown...and black? Puhhlease, maybe if your a 15yo airsofter, as if. The only question is, should my next gun (in "flat dark earth" color) be a Springfield XD or a Sig P220 combat TB? Tactical minds want to know!

http://www.sigarms.com/Products/ShowCatalogProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=6&productid=156

The Sig, of course!;)

madmike
October 5, 2006, 02:08 PM
My daughter still insists pink is the new black, and Lady Penelope agrees with her.

I vote for flat gray. Got a cat around here I don't see more than 2 minutes a day when he delurks from cloak.:)

30Cal
October 5, 2006, 02:26 PM
It's just funny to watch a guy with a $2000 shorty AR miss at 50yds off a sandbagged rest.

Ty

madmike
October 5, 2006, 02:30 PM
I find a $2000 shorty AR to be funny...I build mine for about $600. Even with an Eotech, you're under a grand.

I still don't grasp railed handguards on civilian weapons, forward pistol grips, short barrels that have to have welded extensions to legally make them not short...

strambo
October 5, 2006, 02:45 PM
short barrels that have to have welded extensions to legally make them not short...
Yeah, if it has to be 16", I want it all to be useable. An interchangeable flash hider is nice too, instead of a welded on one to meet the length. Like a tacticool Krinkov type...not every $2000 AR has one of those! The best use for a railed handguard is to mount a weapon light...harder to hand-hold a light and work a long gun.

My cat is a very fuzzy (breaks up outline like ghilly suit) brown "flat dark carpet" color with slightly darker highlights. All I ever see is her eyes at night against brown carpet and furniture background. I don't know if my cat ever "de-lurks".:p Cats are natures most tactical animal by far. Especially when they hide under something and don't know their kitty-butt is sticking out the back.:neener:

madmike
October 5, 2006, 04:52 PM
I welded a brake on my daughter's to keep the weight and size at a minimum. There are a few reasons to do that. But welding 5" of brake on an 11" barrel.

Hmm....calling it a "muzzle break" instead of a "muzzle brake" is tacticool. (Why are you breaking your muzzle?)

And I still see no need for 4 rails around the handguard of a carbine for a civilian. As for 6 or 8...

And of course, any AR 5.56 pistol is tacticool...

ezypikns
October 5, 2006, 05:28 PM
I am better than tactical...

I am strategic

mustanger98
October 5, 2006, 05:40 PM
Are those tactical cats registered?:D Nobody needs an assault cat hiding in the middle of the floor where the children can trip and fall and be injured.

I've seen a few M1 Garands get a little bit tacticool too... some guys like to build .308 T26 types (so-called "tanker"). Some of those have a rear handguard that's actually a rail for a "scout" scope. It's cool, but not my first choice for a Garand.

madmike
October 5, 2006, 05:59 PM
It's cool, but not my first choice for a Garand.

You can't expect the tacticool crowd to appreciate the Garand, and it's not my first choice for anything. Though it is on the list for my collection.

Correia
October 5, 2006, 06:42 PM
I can shoot a "tactical wizzbang" shorty AR with all of the bells and whistles and outshoot 99% of the posters on THR.

So I don't give a crap what anybody thinks about my guns. Thank you very much. :)

ProguninTN
October 5, 2006, 06:50 PM
Tactical Equipment: Some may want to play "tough guy". Others may want to make use of the purpose for which the item was designed. Everybody, float your own boat.

The Deer Hunter
October 5, 2006, 06:52 PM
I would use a non-tactical gun against a tactical gun anyday just to show how much tacticool but my blued and wooden guns kick

Eightball
October 5, 2006, 06:56 PM
I can shoot a "tactical wizzbang" shorty AR with all of the bells and whistles and outshoot 99% of the posters on THR. If you can, you have the right to do so.

I just have an issue with the people who think that the look of their AR will do anything to help their performance, or that the number of things hanging off of it affects their accuracy in a positive way.

If I had an AR, i'd have a scope & bipod, 20" Stainless, maybe a more comfy grip. And a Beta C to mess with people :p .

As it sits, my stock Garand can outshoot most of the "whizzbanging tacti-cool" AR users in any position. ANd, it doesn't need anything hanging off of it to make it look better (well, maybe the bayonet, but only to annoy leftists :D ).

Keith Wheeler
October 5, 2006, 07:00 PM
I like my guns like my race cars -- equipped with only what they need to get the job done.

And if the "accessories" start to weigh more than the gun, something's wrong...well perhaps with the exception of my 1919.

DRMMR02
October 5, 2006, 07:18 PM
Quote:
I can shoot a "tactical whizzbang" shorty AR with all of the bells and whistles and out-shoot 99% of the posters on THR.
If you can, you have the right to do so.
I just have an issue with the people who think that the look of their AR will do anything to help their performance, or that the number of things hanging off of it affects their accuracy in a positive way.

If I had an AR, I'd have a scope & bi-pod, 20" Stainless, maybe a more comfy grip. And a Beta C to mess with people .

As it sits, my stock Garand can out-shoot most of the "whizzbang tacti-cool" AR users in any position. And, it doesn't need anything hanging off of it to make it look better (well, maybe the bayonet, but only to annoy leftists ).

So my big qualm is assuming that if one does have a taced-out AR, that they must be a poser. Some people are, others, like Corriea, are great shooters that can use the equipment fine.

So why not just ignore who uses what equipment and who doesn't and just focus on who can shoot?

madmike
October 5, 2006, 07:47 PM
Bottled water, "Tactical" accessories.

Admit it, we're all just jealous we didn't think of it first.

I actually came up with a marketing plan for water in high school in the 80s.

"Emergency survival water, evaporated. 8 ounces. Mix with 8 ounces of normal water. Makes 1 pint."

You know it would sell in the right package.

And my bayonet makes gunnies freak. Lefties wet their pants:evil:

sixgunner455
October 5, 2006, 08:30 PM
There were plenty of violent bank robbers in times past. Clyde Barlow, Pretty Boy Floyd, John Dillinger, Machine Gun Kelly, the Jameses, the Youngers, etc, etc. Some of them even used high capacity, rapid fire guns in their heists, and killed outgunned cops and civilians.

DRMMR02
October 5, 2006, 08:43 PM
There were plenty of violent bank robbers in times past. Clyde Barlow, Pretty Boy Floyd, John Dillinger, Machine Gun Kelly, the Jameses, the Youngers, etc, etc. Some of them even used high capacity, rapid fire guns in their heists, and killed outgunned cops and civilian
So that's not really a reason to say that SWAT teams are unnecessary, and that all we need is "community policing"

ezypikns
October 5, 2006, 08:47 PM
Or denying the necessity for highly trained groups of REAL law enforcement officers.

It's all the folks playing like them.

DRMMR02
October 5, 2006, 08:52 PM
Well it has been said on this thread and others that SWAY teams are useless and just create more problems. That they are overhyped Ninjas, that honest men don't hide their faces, and that all you really need is 2 detectives with snub-nosed revolvers knocking on doors. Those things have indeed been said.

mustanger98
October 5, 2006, 09:03 PM
So that's not really a reason to say that SWAT teams are unnecessary, and that all we need is "community policing"

Or denying the necessity for highly trained groups of REAL law enforcement officers.

It's all the folks playing like them.

Well it has been said on this thread and others that SWAY teams are useless and just create more problems. That they are overhyped Ninjas, that honest men don't hide their faces, and that all you really need is 2 detectives with snub-nosed revolvers knocking on doors. Those things have indeed been said.

1- (Covers 1st and 2nd quotes) It would be good if citizens would do more than to just depend on the police. Not that citizens should "act like cops", but that folks need to wise up and keep their eyes and ears open and be able to take care of stuff when it hits the fan. It is necessary though that real cops need to be called to fill out the after-action reports and make any arrests of surviving miscreants.

2- (Covers 3rd quote) SWAT teams are not useless. They're have however possibly become over-used. SWAT aside, no honest man I know ever hid his face... he never had to. I do recall the reference to the Lone Ranger... while I've always been in favor of the principles Clayton Moore put across through the character, you don't have to wear a mask to be that way.

Grizzley Adams
October 5, 2006, 09:19 PM
personaly i dont care if it is tatical or what.i belive you should buy and use what works best for your enviroment,for me it is the guns i own wich is 2 pistols,a rifle and a shotgun.but my guns are used for fun and putting food on the table.now i know that doesnt apply in the city so i belive you should adjust your guns and such accordingly,and this is coming from a old geezer ;) .i am a firm beliver in using what suits you best for your needs.and i own a shotgun that is synthetic and it is great espically on them cold snowy or rainy days when i feel like having some rabbit or something for the stew that evening.

Gewehr98
October 5, 2006, 11:24 PM
Well, after the Italians took our Winchester Garand tooling and made their own version of the M14 with it, even before our own M14 started mass issue:

http://www.reesesurplus.com/images/DSC00154.JPG

Those folks at Pietro Beretta were some sort of smart, using our tooling to make the BM-59 for the newly-adopted 7.62mm NATO round. Straight oprod, TriCompensator, expansion chamber gas system, gas cutoff valve, in a shorter, lighter package. Mine is the Nigerian export model, same configuration as the one above. No lights mounted on it, though - bad guys like to shoot at lights and lasers. ;)

madmike
October 5, 2006, 11:43 PM
Yeah, that was another strike against the M14--that someone else did better, sooner.

Robob4
October 7, 2006, 02:10 AM
Anyone hostile to tactical weaponry will get vaporized by lasers soon. Good luck with your 1911's then.

mustanger98
October 7, 2006, 02:17 AM
Somebody's been playing too many video games lately.

cbsbyte
October 7, 2006, 02:20 AM
Tactical gear is fine for LEO and military but gay for civilian use, to me it is a waste of money.

Robob4
October 7, 2006, 02:22 AM
Anybody not willing to spend money on the latest tactical gear needs some perspective. Cable TV will not save your life. A tactical vest will.

madmike
October 7, 2006, 02:43 AM
Knowing something of lasers...

The best practical laser out there for that sort of thing is about 15% efficient. Physics decides this. There's little you can do to improve it.

1 foot pound = 3.766160833e-7 kilowatt hour

so, 600 foot pound = 0.000 225 97 kilowatt hour (minimal reliable stop)

and, 1300 foot pound = 0.000 489 601 kilowatt hour (M16 muzzle equiv)

Assume a half second burst on target. (We will assume steady influx, not pulse, even though pulse is standard) 6.8 kilowatts.

So, to put 6.8 kilowatts on target means 45.3 kilowatts generated, with 38.5 of them wasted as heat. That's the heat from 25 hairdryers every burst, which means you carry a lot of ice, a refrigerator, or you fry.

Not to mention the minor problem of carrying a power source big enough.

Solid state lasers can be more efficient. IIRC, 60% has been mentioned for certain applications as a design goal. But even still, that's a lot of energy to pack into a portable power source, and so far, SS lasers aren't compact enough either, though they are much better.

If I've screwed up my figures anywhere, someone please say so.

XD Fan
October 7, 2006, 03:07 AM
I am a little baffled by the hostility toward BDU pants. They seem like they would be extremely(Please note this is an adverb not an adjective:evil: ) comfortable and practical for shooting, hunting or just living. I do not currently own a pair but I love my cargo shorts for all those activities. That being said, I tend to think mall ninja when I see someone in blact cargo pants.

madmike
October 7, 2006, 03:13 AM
I do wear black BDU pants. One pocket for ID, one for small pistol, one for knife, one for keys and nothing in back. Handy. THey're also $20 a pair and tough.

Of course, I've worn all black for 22 years now...

As to camo BDUs...why? I wear them on duty and I wear them hunting or maybe at the range because they're tough. They're not daywear. Where does woodland camo help in the mall? And wearing urban or desert in the mall just makes you look silly.

NOTE: Other vets who choose to wear either just pants or sanitized shirt as a recognition badge are okay. You earned it, you show it as a club ID.

Hawk
October 7, 2006, 03:52 AM
A minor non-tactical victory was scored today: I just got back from a 600 mile round trip to Florence, TX to pickup what may have been one of the last STI VIPs (double-stack Commander-sized 1911) in captivity.

It's black, it has a fair amount of polymer but, unlike its replacement, it is wonderfully unburdened by light rail. I tend to share the concerns voiced by those questioning the wisdom of someone like myself aiming the weapon at whatever we're trying to ID. Gums up the holster situation too.

But its clear we curmudgeons are losing - the VIP was, after all, discontinued.

...Cable TV will not save your life....
Sure it will - if you're watching soap operas instead of selling Avon at crack houses. The later activity might benefit from a tac vest. I suppose the truly tactical could wear the vest while watching TV - there's a one-two safety punch.

thexrayboy
October 7, 2006, 03:55 AM
Man what a thread! It's been hijacked more times than a hooptie in South Central!

madmike
October 7, 2006, 11:06 AM
What?

Fidel's been wearing fatigues since the 50s.

Now THAT is tacticool.

Chris Rhines
October 7, 2006, 11:35 AM
I like my guns like my race cars -- equipped with only what they need to get the job done. This is probably a pretty good policy. Brian Enos once said something along the lines of, "Every modification you make to your firearms should be made with an eye toward performance." In other words, have a specific gain in mind before whipping out the credit card and the GG&G catalog.

- Chris

lionking
October 7, 2006, 11:44 AM
quote xdfan;I am a little baffled by the hostility toward BDU pants. They seem like they would be extremely(Please note this is an adverb not an adjective ) comfortable and practical for shooting, hunting or just living. I do not currently own a pair but I love my cargo shorts for all those activities. That being said, I tend to think mall ninja when I see someone in blact cargo pants

lol yeah,like I said they are comfortable but sometimes at a range you'll see someone camo'd out with a AK or AR and after watching them you can see the way they handle the firearm that they don't have much experience,their target never goes further then the 25yd line.

I once rented a room to a guy who went shooting with me a couple times,he would dress in black and ugh,was slighty out of shape if you know what I mean.He sure did look big (emphasis on big) and bad though dressed like a swat dude with his Makarov lol!....sheesh:rolleyes:

TV shows?Hey after watching Jericho I feel totally informed on what to do when a nuke goes off!

Now please excuse me,its a nice day so Im going out dressed in my tactical bluejeans with my tactical M1917 and M1903a3.....blow up some communist soda cans.

XavierBreath
October 7, 2006, 12:01 PM
I note that most of the tactical stuff I see, from AR FLIR pods to HUD scopes have very little wear. The guns they attach to seem to have very little wear as well. Of course, that could be because of the super duper tactical hostile environment finishes.............

Tactical has become a word to describe an underused object of desire rather than a gun. These accessorized weapons are like enshrined talismans against evil, that are rarely, if ever put to actual use. That is why "tactical" has become the latest joke description.

strambo
October 7, 2006, 12:31 PM
I think cargo pants, BDU's and 5.11s in non-camo colors are fine for very casual wear and not too tacky. Criticizing a guy in Tan BDU pants seems a bit anal to me. I have 2 pair of 5.11s that I got issued to me and I'm gonna wear them till they wear out. If that makes me look like a "wannabe" so be it. I'm not gonna screen print my resume on a T-shirt to prove otherwise.

madmike
October 7, 2006, 12:54 PM
Xavier: that reminds me of a guy at the Ft Wayne gun show selling suppressors.

He had several mounted samples, and all this great literature about this brand and what made them so awesome.

I asked about handling one to get a feel.

"Oh, but you must only hold it vertically. Don't stick it straight out because I'm worried about damage to the barrel or bushing or suppressor itself I don't know I stopped listening because it was HYSTERICAL to watch him cupping his hands underneath mine in case the precious suppressor should DROP!"

I can understand not wanting the merchandise scratched, but no pointing the weapon, ONLY hold it vertically in case of some undefined damage? WTH kind of tactical gear is THAT?:rolleyes:

EDIT I believe it's Storm Mountain Training Center where someone started classes by dropping his pistol on the ground, and telling the people with the anodized race toys that if they won't or can't do the same, they're not serious about being in a firefight.

lionking
October 7, 2006, 12:56 PM
strambo,I doubt anybody here would consider you a wannabe.Only other than the fact that you probably wannabe comin' on home seeing as you are in Afghanistan.

Nothing wrong with wearing BDU or adding accessories to a weapon.My mere pov is that some like xavier stated so well is that it does'nt make you a bada** as a civilian

I stated that on my own away from people I have practiced certain things,one thing for me,after doing some manuvering at different targets how quickly I become out of breath and huffing and puffing which its hard to fire a effective shot when you can hardly keep your breath.

So I could hardly consider myself warrior ready and if I ever find myself in a situation my limitations may seriously impede me.So hats off to you guys who are carrying that gear for real.

now I really am going out now,do some milsurp shooting today...ah the sunshine so beautiful.

cheers

gak
October 7, 2006, 03:56 PM
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j234/gakk/cf1.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j234/gakk/cf4.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j234/gakk/cf3.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j234/gakk/cf2.jpg

.38 Special
October 7, 2006, 04:25 PM
I don't know what the heck that was about, but it's effing hilarious!

< edit > But hey, at least the big kid in the second pic had his finger off the trigger while pointing his gun at his fallen buddy. Three out of four ain't bad! LMAO!

grislyatoms
October 7, 2006, 06:54 PM
Tactical is overused.

Few folks anymore seem to associate tactical with tactics. They seem to think because they have the uber (and I am getting sick of uber, used facetiously or not, too) "tactical coffee mug" they are Rambo.

I am willing to bet the folks who buy all the tactical crap out there don't know the first thing about tactics. (I don't know the first thing about tactics, either, but I am not the one buying all the black carbon fiber nylon tactical drop leg light rail junk.)

Apologies to skunkabilly.:D

mr.trooper
October 9, 2006, 12:45 AM
i dont know what it is, or where it came from. All i know is that it would have a heart attack ina ny real fight.

i may be over weight, but at least i can still run and shoot for several hours at a time.

scout26
October 9, 2006, 02:44 AM
Those pictures are my problem with "Tactical."

I have no problem with you buying whatever gizmo, doodad, or jimcrack you think will help you/your firearm, as long as you don't mind me snickering behind your back about trying to buy skill and experience (depending, of course, on the gizmo, doodad or jimcrack). I don't care what you wear to the range, as long as you are comfortable and SAFE. You're free to wear what you want, (please wear pants while at the range, I'm there with my kids.), and I'm free to roll my eyes at what you've chosen to wear.

I do have a problem with the Stay-Puf Marsh-MellowMan wearing BDU pants and a 4XL "Special Forces" T-shirt with the obligatory Burrito stains trying to pass himself as some kinda "operator" or expert, when the closest he came to any type of military service was watching "Stripes" and "Full Metal Jacket" back-to-back on the VCR in his mom's basement.


P.S. Caption for second picture: "Roger, I confirm, shoot the wounded."

DRMMR02
October 9, 2006, 02:57 AM
I wonder how many times a guy has walked into a range with a thigh holster and a light on his pistol, maybe even some BDUs on, got snickerd at behind his back, and the turned out really to be a member of the military or a LEO practicing with the tools and methids he uses on the job.

Can't someone's groups speak for themselves?


And those pictures are some of the funniest things I have EVER seen :)

Also, you guys all know #### well that when you were 12 years old, you would have LOVED to have all that stuff to play with.

Gewehr98
October 9, 2006, 03:12 AM
Shouldn't Pvt. Lumpy von Pushdagger, with all that extra muscle mass, be carrying the casualty, freeing up the machinegunner to eat a few sammiches on his own?

"Shoot the wounded!" - I love it. May be time for a new signature line...

scout26
October 9, 2006, 03:41 AM
Also, you guys all know #### well that when you were 12 years old, you would have LOVED to have all that stuff to play with.

Heck, when I was 12 (1977) I did have all that stuff to play with. I had one brother still in the Nasty Guard, and two others that had served in Vietnam. They gave me and my friends all their old uniforms and other crap (my one brother let us use his NG TA-50) and we would run through the woods and fields having a grand time playing "Army" and camping out. We had no illusions that that's what we were doing, playing.

No one, however would mistaken us for the Real Deal, nor did we try to pass ourselves as such. (We were all Captains and Generals, except Chuck B., he was a little unclear on the concept and always wanted to be an Admiral. :rolleyes: )

Most of the time you can tell Real Deal from the Wannabe's fairly quickly. I don't snicker at the guys at my club who shoot at Camp Perry, they setup the wind flags and propellers, wearing the shooting jackets and slings and then REALLY practice to hone their skill. Nor the guys on the pistol range who have obviously nice and or "issued" equipment and are working on their groups.

You can tell by the conversations who's who.

The professionals are professional, they don't feel the need to advertise.

madmike
October 9, 2006, 03:51 AM
When my wife and a friend of mine were preparing for Basic, I put them each in body armor, helmet, LBV and weapon with fixed sights to do BRM and speed drills. This was at the civilian range at Camp Atterbury. Whether in or out of uniform, pretty much everyone figured out what we were doing and no one snickered.

Of course, we tend not to snicker at real loons either. It's not polite, and they do have guns...

Trebor
October 9, 2006, 06:14 AM
Those pictures are freakin' hilarious! And that comment someone made, "Roger, I confirm, shoot the wounded," OMG! I hope I didn't wake my wife up laughing so hard!

I recently bought my first couple pairs of 5.11 pants. I needed something other then jeans for the range for when I teach classes. I was hesitant, because of the whole "tacticool" thing, but they are practical for what I need them to do. I found out that I really like the pants. Their comfortable and the pockets come in handy to carry all the cra...er,..stuff we carry around in daily life.

As far as firearm accessories, if I haven't been trained on it, or don't know how to use it, I don't see the point in having it. I do eventually want an AR with either a Eotech or Aimpoint scope, but I plan to use an AR in a rifle class with iron sights first. Then, after that, take another class with the scope. I want my rifles light and not full of, um, "Stuff," so I'd max out with the scope and a light. I can see the need for each of those.

Right now my "house gun" is a M-1 Carbine and my "OMG! THE ALIENS HAVE LANDED!" rifle is a M-1 Garand. The carbine is light and handy and easy to use. The Garand is the rifle I'm most familiar with if I need something with more authority then the carbine. I've shot both extensively and know the capabilities of the weapon and my ability to use them.

Heck, I'm so "Un-Tacticool" that a carry a 6 shot Model 65 revolver as my daily carry gun. If "Pink is the new Black," maybe "Retro is the new tactical?"

Lebben-B
October 9, 2006, 10:10 AM
When my wife and a friend of mine were preparing for Basic, I put them each in body armor, helmet, LBV and weapon with fixed sights to do BRM and speed drills. This was at the civilian range at Camp Atterbury. Whether in or out of uniform, pretty much everyone figured out what we were doing and no one snickered.

At Bragg, it wasn't unusual to see people at the local ranges wearing BDUs/ACUs and all their battle rattle getting in some extracurricular training. My joes and I used to do it all the time prior to our deployment. (After each session, AARs were usually held at the nearest bar ;) ) The extra trigger time really paid big dividends for us in Iraq.

Contrast this with the Ft Sill area - I went to the local range directly from work one day (still in uniform) and others on the line looked at me as if I had a certain body part growing out of my forehead. I guess "Tacticool" depends on the attitude of your area.

All the tactical weapons and gizmos are cool and all, but if you you can't use it properly ten times out of ten times in the dark, groggy from being woken up or from lack of sleep, when you're sweaty, and when you're shivering then you shouldn't use it at all.

Mike

dragongoddess
October 9, 2006, 10:37 AM
Given the range I shoot at is on military property and all the LE agencies use it along with some military units I doubt there are complaints about "Tacticool" .

After spending 13 years wearing that stuff day in and day out you won't find me wearing BDU's at the range or any other time. I'm now a full time member of the Blue Jean and T-Shirt Army. Yes there are more formal times where my West Texas Granny Gots a Gun (WTG3) attire doesn't fit. Like when I have to appear as a properly dressed lady at a luncheon to other event but I can't wait to get back to my WTG3 attire.

Finally
My only problem with it is I would rather spend the money on training,ammo,mags or another weapon then buying someone's old issue..



Sorry I must admit that I do have some "Tacticool" uniforms in Black. All women have that basic black dress they look great in and of course a pair of shoes that make Kimber's look cheap. Lets not forget the jewelry too.

gcerbone
October 9, 2006, 04:53 PM
...is the new tacticool. :)

My home defense weapon is a cap and ball rifle...I only move up to the Minie balls if I REALLY expect trouble.

mr.trooper
October 9, 2006, 05:14 PM
i was thinking more along the lines of going back to a SxS shotgun, but whateer works for you. :D

madmike
October 9, 2006, 05:16 PM
My home defense weapon is a cap and ball rifle

;) Rigghhhttttt.

You're married to my sister. I know what SHE has. You just use that cap and ball;)

mustanger98
October 9, 2006, 07:09 PM
FWIW, thinking of cap&ball weapons, I wouldn't feel undergunned with a Colt's Navy .36 loaded with round ball knowing it has more punch than some .38Specials. And round ball, according to Elmer Keith (Sixguns by Keith), had more knockdown than a conical fired from the same weapon. The only problem with it is it's slower to reload. That's why it was considered tactically/strategically/logistically sound to carry more than one ready to go, especially when riding in Indian Country or as Confederate Cavalry. But thinking of Confederate Cavalry, I think it was Gen. Forrest's command that they carried multiple double-barrel shotguns while conducting fast hit and run raids.

BTW, those fast hit and run tactics were also employed by the British SAS in North Africa. Their favorite vehicle was the U.S. Jeep with belt feds mounted. They'd run down the length of the German flightlines with the machineguns blazing blowing up as many planes as possible. They'd make a pass in and a pass out and be gone before Jerry got halfway woke up. Their actions became a TV series called "The Rat Patrol".

madmike
October 9, 2006, 07:59 PM
So, the ULTIMATE in tacticool is a Jeep with no fenders, 10 jerry cans lashed on, twin Vickers or a Browning, some Stens and Browning HPs, shorts, a shaggy beard and a rag on the head.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jeep_man/desert2.jpg

"The jeeps were stripped of all non-essential parts including the windscreen, most of the radiator grille bars and even sometimes the front bumper to increase the effective load carrying capacity of the vehicle. Thus the large amount of fuel and water needed for fast long-range raids could be carried avoiding the need for slower support vehicles. A water condensing unit was fitted to the front to reduce loss from the radiator which would otherwise have had to be topped up from the limited drinking water supplies. The jeeps also carried sand mats, metal wheel channels, radio equipment and large quantities of ammunition.

The jeeps were heavily armed with combinations of both Browning and Vickers K machine guns. The ex-aircraft Vickers weapons were generally mounted in pairs and a total of up to five machine guns were carried on some vehicles. The effectiveness of this armament firing a mix of ball, armour-piercing and tracer shells can be judged from one assault on an airfield where 12 aircraft were destroyed in a five minute raid. With all guns blazing a single SAS jeep could deliver an impressive 5000 rounds per minute! The net result was that over 400 aircraft had been destroyed on the ground by November 1942. Stirling was finally captured in 1943 but escaped four times before being sent to Colditz where he spent the rest of the war."

I like it:evil:

more here
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jeep_man/sasjeep.htm
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jeep_man/sasjalb.htm

mpmarty
October 9, 2006, 08:41 PM
Tactical or whatever, I quit buying Levis years ago and the Wranglers just never fit me right. I now have bought six or seven pairs of 5.11 pants, wear them to work, wear them when traveling; they are comfortable, carry what I need to carry in pockets (I smoke a pipe and the little pocket on the left leg is great for that) and the price is under $30 a pair in many colors. I never even thought of them as "tactical" they are accepted in my part of the world as "hiking" pants or other outdoorsey stuff.

Mark Whiteman
October 9, 2006, 09:51 PM
I can do without all the "tactical laser zipper pulls" and so on. As for BDUs, heck, even the EMTs wear 6 pocket trousers and black nylon boots. Stuff like that works for them. If it comes in handy, or works for you, why not? Most everyone can tell a poser from someone who walks the walk. It helps to remember everyone started out green at one time or another. Most eventually learn the ropes.:D

.38 Special
October 10, 2006, 12:39 AM
As for BDUs, heck, even the EMTs wear 6 pocket trousers and black nylon boots. Stuff like that works for them.
You know, in the field we had a name for those guys: "Ricky Rescue". The new guys show up with the 6 pocket pants and the paratrooper boots and either a fanny pack or a black leather "scissors and penlight" holster. Known, BTW, as "Rickypacks".

The old hands wear Dickies and steel-toed lace-ups, and keep their equipment in the jump box where it belongs.

:neener:

madmike
October 10, 2006, 12:46 AM
You know, in the field we had a name for those guys: "Ricky Rescue". The new guys show up with the 6 pocket pants and the paratrooper boots and either a fanny pack or a black leather "scissors and penlight" holster. Known, BTW, as "Rickypacks".

The old hands wear Dickies and steel-toed lace-ups, and keep their equipment in the jump box where it belongs.


I've had my butt saved by both kinds. If it works for them and works for me, it's not stupid.

Mark Whiteman
October 10, 2006, 12:54 AM
Around here, it's part of AMR's uniform. The local SO even ditched the wool dress uniforms they'd had for the last 40 years and went to jumpsuits and subdued patches. You know what they say...California leads the way...:cool:

LAK
October 10, 2006, 08:53 AM
.. Because it has been perverted into another marketing term. "Tactical" refers to nothing more than those things which actually pertain to tactics.

-------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

Keith Wheeler
October 10, 2006, 11:05 AM
twin Vickers or a Browning

Them thar are Lewis guns. Ain't no "tacticool" to 'em, just plain old school cool. :D

Well, I stand corrected. I always thought of the Vickers as the "British Maxim", however these were indeed a Vickers variant....

Great info at: http://www.vickersmachinegun.org.uk/

X-Rap
October 10, 2006, 01:25 PM
I confess I'm a posser, every morning I put on my tactical carhart double knee loggers and tactical tee shirt with special pocket. Then pull on a pair of Danner or Filson boots with the tactical lug sole. If its cold I'll put on tactical fleece.I haven't steped up to the black loggers but prefere black or camo fleece. Some times I even go with the pants with all the pockets.

Bobhwry
October 10, 2006, 07:01 PM
I hope all this tactical crap is just a passing fancy, because all it does fan the flames of the anti's!!

CAPTAIN MIKE
October 10, 2006, 08:13 PM
It matters not if someone on the range dresses in tactical clothing or not.
What matters is how effectively they put holes in the target.

Our colleague .38 Special has a good point - that sometimes dressing tactical is more of a sign of a 'Wannabe' than anything else. To be effective and to be ready is to practice, practice, practice, learn some more and then practice again.

I once had a gunsmith who constantly wore tight black tee shirts, black 5.11 pants, boots and had tactical folders in pockets on each leg. His only friends were shooters. His whole life seemed to revolve around firearms and weaponry. While I respected his firearm knowledge and skill as a gunsmith, I wondered from time to time if with his daily clothing choices and standard accoutrements whether or not he ever got laid.

Tactical anything should not be a yardstick for cool. Tactical should merely be a descriptor applied to gear that is practical and helpful. No matter how tactical one dresses or what amount of tactical gear they have, it still boils down to one simple reality: Skills versus Appearance.

madmike
October 10, 2006, 10:28 PM
I hope all this tactical crap is just a passing fancy, because all it does fan the flames of the anti's!!

Nah, anything fans them. Cheap guns are Saturday night specials." Expensive ones are "military style assault weapon of mass destruction rambo killing machines." Bolt actions are "Military sniper assassin weapons." Powerful ones can "take down airliners." Weak ones are "ineffective and a danger." Cowboy action shooters are "dangerous fantasists reliving the violence of the Old West." Hunting is "bloodsport." Reactive shooting is "murder training."

Actually, I've found it best to quietly tweak them into a tizzy so it's obvious they're loons.

BTW: I'd never heard of 5.11 pants or whatever until this thread. After a google, they look like the dorky farmer style jeans Wrangler used to sell. What's the deal?

X-Rap
October 11, 2006, 01:46 AM
Exactly my point. Everything useful and some stuff that isn't has been hijacked by the tactical money changers. If you have a knife that you can open with one hand while you using the other it used to be useful. If you had clothing that fit loosly were durable and allowed some range of motion they were called trousers or dungerees or maybe fatiges or heaven forbid BDU's. Now tactical. A rifle that you put time into working the trigger, bedding the stock, putting on quality glass,working up a good load and maybe going synthetic with the stock was called a shooter or maybe a pet name of affection now is a tactical sniper rifle.The skills of woodcraft that every country boy learned about shooting, the woods, tracking, living off the land and the list goes on. While most didn't take it to the higest level learned what is now called tactics. But hey if you just got the latest cataloge from the I'm a black ninja put a hole in your head from a mile away tactical store and it was selling useful stuff they wouldn't sell much would they?

Hawk
October 11, 2006, 09:12 AM
BTW: I'd never heard of 5.11 pants or whatever until this thread. After a google, they look like the dorky farmer style jeans Wrangler used to sell. What's the deal?

I gather that Royal Robbins was a rock climber. 5.11 is near the top of a scale denoting difficulty of a climb or some such.

Somebody figured out they functioned well for other stuff, "tactical" labeling was liberally applied and the price goes up 20%. The rock hounds are getting quite a hoot out of the entire phenomenon.

...or so goes the urban legend I heard on 5.11.

hmmm, found this:
YDS (http://www.climber.org/data/decimal.html)

excerpt:

5.0 to 5.4 There are two hand- and two footholds for every move; the holds become progressively smaller as the number increases.

5.5 to 5.6 The two hand- and two footholds are there, obvious to the experienced, but not necessarily so to the beginner.

5.7 The move is missing one hand- or foothold.

5.8 The move is missing two holds of the four, or missing only one but is very strenuous.

5.9 The move has only one reasonable hold which may be for either a foot or a hand.

5.10 No hand- or footholds. The choices are to pretend a hold is there, pray a lot, or go home.

5.11 After thorough inspection you conclude this move is obviously impossible; however, occasionally someone actually accomplishes it. Since there is nothing for a handhold, grab it with both hands.

5.12 The surface is as smooth as glass and vertical. No one has really ever made this move, although a few claim they have.

5.13 This is identical to 5.12 except it is located under overhanging rock."

Hence, 5.11 unh... "tactical" (?!)

brokendreams
October 11, 2006, 10:22 AM
To throw in my two cents....


Tactcal should really only apply to anything that makes you or your weapon... more tactical.

The military uses the term to define anything that will make you a more effective soldier. Using tape on zippers to silence them. Using a light (or two) on your weapon to illuminate an area. Taping watch faces so that you don't scratch/break the bezel. Ask any soldier what he uses most (besides his gun) and he'll probably say "90 mile per hour tape." "Snipers" (I hate that term, as well, at least when applied before "rifle") use tape to make a small slit on each end of the scope, to avoid reflection. They also wear ghillies and stuff. This is for tactical reasons. Tactic being the root.


Kneepads, combat boots, 5.11 HRT pants, a balaclava, kevlar helmet, ESS goggles, 2 Surefire combat lights, an ACOG, a boyonet and an AR will look right at home (when colored in ARPAT or Marine Woodland) in the sandbox. But when they are worn (when colored in black) in your living room, you sort of look... Rediculous. Unless you are a S.W.A.T or some sort of special teams member of a police force, do we really need all that?


Now: I will NOT say that a weapon light, EOtech, and numerous other things on the front of your AR is the dumb form of tactical. Some of us like thos things. I think when somebody says something like... "Man, that glock has the most tactical trigger ever!" or "Man, that guy was so tactical... Did you see the sweet Maxpedition pack he had?" they deserve to be slapped.


Sorry, it's late and I'm very tired... I'll see if this makes sense in the morning.

brokendreams
October 11, 2006, 10:27 AM
In response to the 5.11 post:

Yes, it was initially a rock climbing gear company. Then, Law Enforcement started liking the ruggedness of their pants, and wah-lah! A legend is born!

I will say this... 5.11 products are WAY over....engineered. I own a coupla pairs of the TDU pants, and they are friggin' AWESOME! Yes, I wear a gun at work. I also carry around a lot of crap (heh, three surefire flashlights and a streamlight stinger, plus OC, ASP and Ruger P90) and they are the most durable, comfortable, and just plain well-made pair of BDUs I have ever purchased.

MM
October 11, 2006, 10:43 AM
K.I.S.S.
It means keep it simple, stupid, NOT keep it stupid, simple...
SatCong

madmike
October 11, 2006, 10:59 AM
Wildomar:

While that term is getting use in the military, that's a carryover from CIVILIAN marketing.

The two military definitions of tactical are either something that relates to tactics--a night move with NVG, equipping a vehicle with support weapons, conducting a recon, etc, or

something portable within the unit's organic capabilities, not requiring external support.

My wife is a combat photographer. Her "Tactical" rig is a Nikon D50 with a laptop, in lieu of a full darkroom or a large computer and desktop monitor. I am head utilities geek for an Infantry Brigade. My "Tactical" cooling equipment is a brute force R22 air conditioner powered by an attached generator and using manual dampers for humidity/fresh air control, in lieu of a digitally controlled centrifugal zone system for an office complex.

Generally "Tactical" means "rugged, crude and adequate" as opposed to "Glamorous, flashy and sensitive."

Most of the so-called "Tactical" accessories are useless weight or fragile, and therefore by definition are not tactical.

DRMMR02
October 11, 2006, 11:23 AM
Most of the so-called "Tactical" accessories are useless weight or fragile, and therefore by definition are not tactical.

That's a good point. Tactical equipment goes hand in hand with actual tactics. Meaning that the equipment should be able to withstand more and rougher use than an everyday civilian usually puts it through. "Tactical" equipment is meant for serious jobs. Many things pegged as tactical you would not actually find being used by real operators, and people who actually need "tactical" stuff.

MechAg94
October 11, 2006, 12:30 PM
Which is partly why civilians want some of that stuff. "If the military uses it, it must be durable and/or reliable."

My only foray into the tactical universe is when I think about some of the guns I own and try to think what I would use them for, how would I tote all the mags I would want if I was walking, or what would I need if I was using it at night. You can answer those questions and stay simple. You don't need all your gear all the time and you really don't need all your gear. :)

DRZinn
October 26, 2006, 04:03 PM
How's this?

starsandstriper
October 27, 2006, 12:47 AM
Does it make a good grip as well. it looks like you have long range and hand to hand defense pretty well covered.
:rolleyes:

starsandstriper
October 27, 2006, 12:49 AM
shoulnt you have rubber grips to reduce the risk of zappin youself. i can picture that backfiring on you.
:rolleyes:

DRZinn
October 27, 2006, 01:49 AM
Know what's worse? That picture is cropped from a full-page ad by Taser.

lathedog
October 27, 2006, 11:29 AM
Hey, I like reading threads here, but 8 pages...geesh...plus usually by about page 5 people are mad about what other people wrote earlier.

I've got a couple of pairs of 5.11 pants and they really rock. Well made, rugged, etc. Comfortable too.

But...What's the deal with the little pocket on the left side, with the velcro flap? Cell Phone..I think. When I get nervous I can open and close it and make a velcro noise. Really irritates other people. A pen is too long to fit.

Also the wierd web material strap across the right side between the butt and the front pocket? I think it's to attach something with clips. Holster? In case you don't have a belt? Handle for playing grabass?

I didn't know these created debate and controversy. I bought mine in the Px. Everyone here wears them. Even the lady who runs the janitorial crew. She isn't really tactical in the classical sense, but gets high marks regarding the cleanliness of the building...which is sometimes under tactical conditions.

The Px got a big batch in one color, and within a few days everyone not in uniform was wearing the same pants. Kinda funny. Certain PSC's use them as a sort of uniform. The shirts look like too much...even for me. Straps and pockets galore.

I plan to keep wearing them. Sorry I don't own any in black. I like tan so the dust and dirt doesn't show. I have been wearing less tactical but similar pants for years - like Levis Dockers. They look classier than jeans, are more comfortable, and last longer. Personal preference.

Would it be redundant to call something BLACTICAL if it was black in color, kinda like a Blacula (Black Vampire)? Does TACTICAL imply black in color, or necessitate the color choice?



p.s. MadMike - I've read a few of your books. Very good stuff.

madmike
October 27, 2006, 11:43 AM
Blactical. I LIKE it!

I wonder if the corollary is tactitan.

And what do we do for OD?

Lathedog: thanks. I just turned another one into Baen yesterday, about future PSCs.

Correia
October 27, 2006, 01:13 PM
Blacktical? :D Kind of like Blackula? I'm going to have to use that.

For you anti-tactical folks:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=46934&d=1161882394

That's me and my latest baby. I call it the AR-SD. (I wanted the front end to look like an MP5-SD) Stag upper & lower, Tac16 suppresor, EoTech 553, YHM free float rail, YHM flip up front, ARMS 40L flip up rear, ACE Boomstock, and not pictured is a big honking Surefire 220 lumen light that is going on it. I can also add a 3x magnifier, green laser, or invisible IR laser (for when I'm wearing night vision) whenever I feel like it.

Now I wait for anti-tactical heads to explode! :D

jem375
October 27, 2006, 01:20 PM
I get a big kick out of some photos of a certain group over at ar15.com hometown forums who go to the gun range all decked out in camo and molle vests and all the goodies. Majority of these clowns are Rambo, Military, and LEO wannabees.

EventHorizon
October 27, 2006, 10:49 PM
One more question.
shoulnt you have rubber grips [on that taser] to reduce the risk of zappin youself. i can picture that backfiring

Yep, I've spoken with a Sheriff's Deputy who had a similar setup on his duty carbine and initially he had the taser mounted a bit too close to some of the metal bits on the underside of the AR and it shorted out when he was playing with, er, um, testing it. Took the whole 5 second jolt up one arm, across his chest, and back down the other arm. He laughs about it now.

Mark Whiteman
October 30, 2006, 01:43 AM
I'll bet that laugh is more an involuntary nervous tick- er, tick- er, tick-SMACK! I'm OK now. After reviewing all the posts, you can boil much of it down to "rediculously overused terminology."

B yond
October 30, 2006, 02:24 AM
tactical tick? :)

wolf_from_wv
October 31, 2006, 12:26 PM
Does anyone turkey hunt tactically?

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0037688932642a&type=product&cmCat=search&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&QueryText=turkey+vest&N=4887&Ntk=Products&Ntx=mode+matchall&Nty=1&Ntt=turkey+vest&noImage=0

http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=19

madmike
October 31, 2006, 01:19 PM
:scrutiny:

"Couch Potato Series"?
http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/anim_rofl2.gif

For fighting tactical turkeys from your couch?:rolleyes:

Do tactical turkeys wear camo and shoot back?
http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/anim_wow.gif

wolf_from_wv
October 31, 2006, 09:49 PM
I think the cushion it has is the same one that is used in couches...

DM Review has an article something about "Tactical Data Management" (not sure of exact title...)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v151/wolf_from_wv/rifle-1.jpg

ryoushi
October 31, 2006, 10:36 PM
Because a snubnosed .38 in the pocket beats one of these (http://images.military.com/pics/SoldierTech_Kimber1911-1.jpg) back in the car under the passenger seat every time.

SixForSure
November 1, 2006, 11:48 AM
Well it has been said on this thread and others that SWAY teams are useless and just create more problems. That they are overhyped Ninjas, that honest men don't hide their faces, and that all you really need is 2 detectives with snub-nosed revolvers knocking on doors. Those things have indeed been said.Book 'em, Dano!

Whatsit
November 1, 2006, 07:02 PM
To continue the theme:

TEH 7/-\c71c00lz

Kenneth Lew
November 2, 2006, 03:45 AM
Funny story,

Went to a shooting class (will withhold name to protect the innocent) to observe a LEO friend shooting in the class.

He only had a Bushmaster AR15A2 and a first generation Glock 17 with a galco leather holster. Mags stuffed in pockets.
No rail
No surefire light
No optics
No tactical vest
No mag drop pouch
No tactical pistol carrier
No tatical headset for your 2-way radios
No tactical clothing
No desert clothing
No tactical pouches
No tactical hydration system
No tactical ninja sword.

He out performed many of the internet tactical wannabe Rambos with their 40 lbs of gear. Many appeared not to have the stamina to kneel much less walk with all that junk around.

He as seen more crap in his live and survived with less accessories that all the other shooters put together.

damyankee
November 2, 2006, 04:09 PM
I've heard this sentiment echoed on here but I'll say it again. Yes, people go overboard. But if there is a practical use for something you MIGHT need to use, then get it and laugh at people who want to preach.

Funny Story, All four of my friends in the sand box use ALL of the gear mentioned above cept for the sword.... they have seen more in 1 YEAR than others who think they've seen it all and used that gear to save their lives and eliminate threats...

madmike
November 2, 2006, 05:00 PM
I agree completely.


But I'm not going to don all that gear if an intruder breaks in at 0200, either.

Correia
November 2, 2006, 05:13 PM
Mike, don it? Hell, I sleep in it. :)

madmike
November 2, 2006, 05:33 PM
My wife would throw me out of bed.:D

We both have carbines, pistols, riot guns, Surefires and Interceptor body armor at bedside.

JohnBT
November 2, 2006, 05:36 PM
I know I'm not headed to the sand box at my age, so I'll stick to investing my money in stuff to keep me invisible to ducks.

Although, I have to admit I have this strange urge to buy one of those new black Remington Marine Magnums. CQD - Close Quarter Duck!

John

madmike
November 2, 2006, 05:39 PM
If you point one of those at me in close quarters, I guaranTEE I will duck.:eek: :p

steelhead
November 2, 2006, 06:00 PM
Posers are the problem. The ones who think that the "gear" makes the man.

DRZinn
November 2, 2006, 07:19 PM
Going to a place like Iraq without some of that stuff would be just as stupid as going plinking with it.

madmike
November 2, 2006, 08:57 PM
185 gr JHP. When you care enough to send the VERY best.

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