strait bolt didnt catch on..?


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Seancass
October 4, 2006, 01:49 AM
why did the strait bolt never become the norm? it seems like a better idea. quicker action for the user, seems it would be a natural choise for military.

....just pondering....

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carpediem
October 4, 2006, 01:54 AM
I think because of ejection issues, normal bolt-actions having a simpler and more reliable action, and maybe maintenance issues?

Number 6
October 4, 2006, 03:07 AM
I believe because they are a little more complex than your standard bolt action design, and the action itself is not as strong.

Eightball
October 4, 2006, 03:10 AM
My mosin's straight bolt is nice---different looking to boot; but it's harder to get it up to where it will unlock (as compared to most bent-bolts). It's hard to describe--more of a 45 degree angle motion to the left and above the rifle, rather than an "UP" motion. Kinda a funky issue to work when you finished shooting about 60 rounds, because that puppy gets hot :eek: .

I just think it's an American thing to not like straight-bolts. More of the european combat bolt guns from the early part of the 20th century seemed to have straight bolts, whereas it seems as though all of ours have always been bent (correct me if I'm wrong, there's a very high possibility).

carpettbaggerr
October 4, 2006, 03:30 AM
Straight bolt like the Mosin, or straight-pull bolt action like the Blaser and Schmidt-Rubin? :)

Erinyes
October 4, 2006, 06:13 AM
Considering he said quicker action, I'm thinking the straight pull bolt like the K31. Mosin Nagant straight bolt handles are kind of a pain...

jd46561
October 4, 2006, 11:34 AM
Straight bolt action not as strong? The Swiss have had no problems for around 60 + years. Styers been around a long time also. Mosins are not a straight pull action.

madmike
October 4, 2006, 01:10 PM
Straight bolt handles (if that's the subject) stick out from the weapon and can be jarred open, especially when taking cover. A bent bolt also means your hand doesn't come as far in front of your FOV when charging.

Cosmoline
October 4, 2006, 02:08 PM
Do you mean straight PULL or straight BOLT? The straight bolt not only caught on, it can be found on about fifty million war rifles from all corners of the globe. Until bolt actions were relegated to hunting roles, it was in fact the dominant form. Bent bolts were the exception.

Straight PULL actions are somewhat more complex and as noted don't give you as much leverage for extraction. But the main issue was probably cost. And it's worth noting that straight pulls did catch on in Europe. They're still used over there for hunting. Over here people tend to view them as busted semis.

Seancass
October 4, 2006, 02:08 PM
i think i ment strait pull bolts [edit: not] like the mosins. quick yank-shove action seems like it should have caught on, but i guess if its weaker and/or less reliable that would explain it.

Cosmoline
October 4, 2006, 02:11 PM
think i ment strait pull bolts like the mosins

?? Mosins are not straight pulls.

jd46561
October 4, 2006, 05:11 PM
Straight pull....http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/th_M95TigrS.jpg (http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/M95TigrS.jpg)
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/th_mypicts-2008.jpg (http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/mypicts-2008.jpg)
Straight bolt... http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/th_MyMosins-1.jpg (http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/MyMosins-1.jpg)
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/th_2005827132843_gun20picts20018.jpg (http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/2005827132843_gun20picts20018.jpg)
Of which are you refuring?

ArmedBear
October 4, 2006, 06:10 PM
A Mosin action LOOKS a lot like a straight-pull bolt, but it's not. It's a simple and very durable push-feed bolt action just like many modern hunting rifles, but heavier. You rotate the bolt up, pull it back, then push it forward and lock it by rotating it down. It just has a straight handle.

A real straight-pull bolt also has the handle sticking out the side, but you just pull back on it, then push it forward, without rotating it. Think of a pump-action, but the slide is operated with your trigger hand, along the side of the action.

The Schmidt-Rubin K31 is a common milsurp; the Steyr M1895 is a less common milsurp and collector gun.

Browning's old T-bolt .22, now back in production, is also seen frequently.

Anyway, I think the reasons are simple: a regular turnbolt action is very simple, strong and reliable. You gain very little by making it more complex. Old straight-pull military rifles, though fun for sport shooting, were pickier about being kept clean than conventional turnbolts. Regular bolt actions are easier to strip and clean, also. Finally, you can easily build a reliable turnbolt action for any small-arms cartridge ever designed, up to the .50 BMG.

If you want something more complex and less dirt-tolerant than a bolt, and without super-magnum-strength, you can get something more convenient to operate than a straight bolt, like a slide, lever, or auto-loading action. None of these are appreciably more complex than the straight bolt.

Seancass
October 4, 2006, 07:25 PM
i fixed it. sorry for the confusion. thanks for the good replies. now i'm left wondering why the pump action never caught on....

ArmedBear
October 4, 2006, 09:15 PM
Pump actions are around, and they remain popular for plinking, Cowboy Action Shooting, hunting, and law enforcement.

Remington makes the centerfire 7600 hunting and LE guns, as well as the 552 .22LR pump action.

Taurus, Henry, Uberti, Beretta, Pedersoli, and others offer "retro" pump rifles now, as well.

Two reasons the guns didn't get popular with the military:

1. The infantry rifle was also a bayonet platform, so a moving foreend wasn't a good thing. It's also not great for prone shooting. Remember: infantry tactics didn't favor rapid firing until WW II (or its tactical testbed, the Spanish revolution).

2. For cavalry use, a pump action doesn't work well with a scabbard.

Cosmoline
October 5, 2006, 03:20 AM
Aren't you really wondering why the pump lever action never caught on :D

ArmedBear
October 5, 2006, 01:02 PM
Aren't you really wondering why the pump lever action never caught on

What about the pump-lever-semiauto action?

AFAIK, only the Luger pistol was mass-produced with this design, but I'm almost sure the French did some screwed-up thing like that, too.

MachIVshooter
October 5, 2006, 08:05 PM
Simply put, the straight pull designs are bulkier, more expensive to manufacture and more likely to malfunction. They are somewhat of a halfbreed between turn bolt and semi-auto, employing (usually) some sort of camming system to rotate the locking lugs, but requiring manual operation rather than gas.

That, and they aren't noticeably faster. The upward and downward motions required with a turn bolt are easily blended with the backward and forward motion into one smooth manuever.

I can cycle the bolts on my Lee-Enfield, Springfield, Mausers, Carcanos, etc. just as fast as my M1911 Schmidt-Rubin. The only exception is my M44 Mosin. That stubby little straight handle combined with the 90 degree throw of a straight bolt costs time.

madmike
October 5, 2006, 08:21 PM
What about the pump-lever-semiauto action?

What about the fully automatic revolver?

ArmedBear
October 5, 2006, 08:26 PM
There was an auto-eject revolver. Odd thing. British.

madmike
October 5, 2006, 09:45 PM
That was the Webley-Fosbery.

No, no, I mean the FULLY AUTOMATIC REVOLVER used to rob a bank last year. DU was full of it at the time.

Of course, DU is always full of it.:barf:

Eightball
October 5, 2006, 10:58 PM
No, no, I mean the FULLY AUTOMATIC REVOLVER used to rob a bank last year. DU was full of it at the time.Somebody seriously robbed a bank with a Webly-Fosbury?

Reminds me of the scene in Casablanca:
"A Webly-Fosbury? Don't see those too much"

And that was 50~ish years ago:eek: .

Leif
October 6, 2006, 10:08 AM
Point of pedantry: I believe the movie was "The Maltese Falcon", not "Casablanca". It was Bogart, though ... :)

jd46561
October 6, 2006, 12:45 PM
"That, and they aren't noticeably faster. The upward and downward motions required with a turn bolt are easily blended with the backward and forward motion into one smooth manuever." Mach IV...I will have to respectfully disagree with you on that one. I can cycle and shoot rounds much faster with the Swiss straight pull (without moving my arm and hand much BTW), than any of my regular bolt actions.The Swiss straight pull is a high quality , strong action that requires less effort to cycle and shoot, IMO.

madmike
October 6, 2006, 01:17 PM
I read an article in the local newspaper about a guy that robbed a liquor store with a fully automatic revolver, do you want to live in a country like that?" - DU Underground

I was referring to this. "the 22 junkie"s sig file.

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