Weaning Americans off guns


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Can'thavenuthingood
October 4, 2006, 10:33 AM
An excerpt from an article just in the UK's Indepenent. A long article.

Vick

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article1786806.ece

Why is gun control so ineffective?

Any adult with a clean criminal record can buy a gun in the US with relative ease. Gun shops and dealers will conduct mandatory background checks - introduced under the 1993 Brady bill, named after the White House Press Secretary James

Brady, who was hit and disabled during an assassination attempt on President Reagan in 1981. But dealers at gun shows - popular throughout the heartland - are exempt from the federal law, making it easy for criminals or children to lay their hands on whatever they want. The semi-automatic TEC-9 machine pistols used by Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold at Columbine were bought at a Colorado gun show.

Federal law, more generally, is subject to constant pressure from the National Rifle Association, the powerful gun-ownership lobby group, which has the influence to run elected officials out of office if they dare to challenge its agenda. That explains why a nationwide ban on semi-automatic assault weapons, introduced during the Clinton administration, was allowed to expire on the eve of the 2004 presidential election - despite the abiding fear of al-Qa'ida sleeper cells possibly operating in the US and planning another attack. Not only did John Kerry, the Democratic candidate, not feel able to use this as a campaign issue against President Bush. He felt obliged to tout his own gun-loving bona fides for fear of losing key swing states such as Pennsylvania

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MikeB
October 4, 2006, 10:44 AM
Well it took only about 30 secs to find at least two glaring errors.

An American youth is murdered with a firearm every four and a half hours on average.

They are still referencing this flawed study, what 10, 12 years after it was proven flawed.

Any adult with a clean criminal record can buy a gun in the US with relative ease. Gun shops and dealers will conduct mandatory background checks - introduced under the 1993 Brady bill, named after the White House Press Secretary James Brady, who was hit and disabled during an assassination attempt on President Reagan in 1981. But dealers at gun shows - popular throughout the heartland - are exempt from the federal law, making it easy for criminals or children to lay their hands on whatever they want.

They always fail to mention that not just any "dealer" at any "gunshow" is exempt. It is ony private party sales that are. If these private parties are acutally "dealing" in firearms they are breaking the law.

Typical uninformed drivel from across the pond.

carlrodd
October 4, 2006, 10:47 AM
it's not even worth commenting on. what is depressing, is that someone, somewhere is reading it and believing it...maybe lots of people.

Fosbery
October 4, 2006, 10:52 AM
The article is written by an American, hence the concentration on terms like 'assault weapon' and 'TEC-9' and the focus on suicides. UK gun bigots don't really differentiate one gun from another and never seem to mention suicides.

The line "Why is gun control so ineffective?" spurred some hope in me tat the article might point out the gun control does not work, but alas, he fails to answer his own question.

Sistema1927
October 4, 2006, 10:55 AM
Hard to believe that the sheeple believe this bovine scat.

Sadly, they do.

beaucoup ammo
October 4, 2006, 11:00 AM
If this weren't a family oriented site, I'd use another adjective. While I always defend our 2nd, I try not to allow the vacuous arguments from "over there" spoil my day.

I use a cane, sometimes crutches. I feel fortunate, as there are others far worse off than me. The point being, when the "Anti's" suggest you Run from trouble or Fight off your attacker..they fail to realize neither option is remotely possible for me and millions of others.

Anyone with a spec of deduction sees the value of concealed carry for the disabled. Rising far above that, however, is our RIGHT to protect our families, home and ourselves from the growing number of predatory mutant scum bags that are everywhere..that includes London as well as San Antonio.

MikeB
October 4, 2006, 11:00 AM
The article is written by an American, hence the concentration on terms like 'assault weapon' and 'TEC-9' and the focus on suicides. UK gun bigots don't really differentiate one gun from another and never seem to mention suicides.

You are correct, I didn't check the byline and just saw it was The Independent. I do here these same arguments all the time on another forum I frequent from citizens of the UK who also post on that other forum so I made an assumption.

Here this is more accurate. - Typical drivel from antigunners on both sides of the pond.:)

Harve Curry
October 4, 2006, 11:06 AM
And they always have their head in the sand when it comes to the fact that if it hadn't been for Americans knowing how to shoot they'd be speaking German. All the white crosses & star of David markers at the American cemetaries in France are testament to that. European children should go there as part of school field trips and we wouldn't be having some of these problems.
_______________________________________________________________
If you can read this thank a teacher. If it is in english thank an American soldier

Fosbery
October 4, 2006, 11:18 AM
1) It was an American who wrote the article, like I said

2) I'm British, I certainly wouldn't be speaking German no atter what. Anyone who says the USA saved Britain just hasn't looked at the facts. Continental Europe, sure they'd have been up the creek without the US, but not us.

I love the USA and its inhabitants (and I'm insanely jealous of your laws and fuly intend to move there at some point) but it does annoy me when people assume their country (not even them personally more often than not) saved us from some imagined and impossible German invasion.

kfranz
October 4, 2006, 11:35 AM
You'd have been up the creek as well. Perhaps not far enough to be speaking German, but you'd still have been hurting.

rbernie
October 4, 2006, 12:02 PM
Continental Europe, sure they'd have been up the creek without the US, but not us.The UK would never had been able to arm and defend itself without the Lend Lease program, and the sacrifices made by thousands of merchant mariners who gave their lives shuttling supplies to the UK during 1940 and 1941. You would have had virtually ZERO war output from your own armament factories if not for the ore and oil that we provided to you.

Moreover, the UK was so short of small arms (having effectively disarmed its populace in the aftermath of WWI) that your Government was reduced to begging for sporting arms donations in American NRA magazine ads. The goal was to get enough arms in the hands of the peasants such that the inevitable German invasion could be repelled by an armed populace (seeing as how the majority of the ready store of British small arms had been left on the docksides and beaches at Dunkirk).

If the US had not entered the European Theater in 1941/42 and opened fronts previously not opened, could Hitler have concentrated more effort into the Battle Of Britain and its aftermath? Dunno, but it certainly is a distinct possibility.

The world does not revolve around the US. But the US 'gun culture' has arguably saved your bacon at least once in the past..... :)

Jim K
October 4, 2006, 01:09 PM
The responses well illustrate our problem. We can argue from a "rational" point of view about statistics and crime, but the antis don't really care about crime. They see guns as evil and gun owners as evil. Whether the gun owners are criminals or not, makes no difference - they are all tarred with the same brush.

The antis base their program on emotion, not reason. They dearly love pictures of dead children, the more the better. They see women as their allies, and excel at interviews with women whose son or daughter has been killed "by an evil gun." Further, there seems to be a feeling that the "good" end justifies any means; mere lies are relatively harmless. But it has been suggested that if there are not enough gun crimes, gun control advocates or anti-gun officials are not above creating a massacre, tailored to specific proposed legislation.

Jim

RNB65
October 4, 2006, 01:54 PM
Interesting article. Yet another reason why all gun owners should join the NRA even if they don't agree with every position it takes. The NRA is still the best defender of the RKBA we have.

dicky r
October 4, 2006, 02:04 PM
I suggest that it's not about the U.S. or Great Britain or who is better, but more about the attack on our gun culture - no matter on whose soil it takes place. The gun culture is an identity that trancends boundaries and flourishes wherever there is a will and the means to remain free at all costs and by all measures.

EarlofSandwich
October 4, 2006, 02:38 PM
They don't want to accept the fact that this is one of the downsides of living in a free society.
Anyone can snap, any time, for almost any reason. Makes me think of that sci-fi movie "Minority Report" where there is an ability and an effort made to stop murders before they happen. Tripe for pacifist dreamers? Perhaps.

I use to be a dreamer. Then I woke up and became a realist. And saw just how baby-ish it all was.
Therefore I am armed and ready.

Henry Bowman
October 4, 2006, 02:52 PM
They don't want to accept the fact that this is one of the downsides of living in a free society. The price of freedom is as high as it ever was, but its (perceived) value is at an all time low.

ericman
October 4, 2006, 03:17 PM
I sent a letter to the webpage offering a different opinion, here is what I wrote:

Although I respect Andrew Gumbel's opinion and right to free speech I strong disagre with him. My name is Allan Brooks. There are currently about 80 million gun owners in the United States and like Gumbel said there are 15000 gun murders a year. This means guns are misused for homicide by 0.0001875% of American Gun owners. Of course the argument might be used that if it saves one life it is worth it, but the fact of the matter its guns save more lives than they take in the US. Guns Prevent and estimated 2.5 million crimes a year (often with non violent outcomes). Everyday, 550 rapes, 1100 murders, and 5200 hundred other violent crimes are prevent by simply brandishing a gun.



That means according to this information, 7700 lives are SAVED in the US due to guns every week. I need no weaning of my guns!



The source for this information can be found here: http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/4.1/GunFacts4-1-Print.pdf

I am not way assosiated with the owner or author of Gunfacts I am simply using his information as a source.

sm
October 4, 2006, 03:25 PM
I am a healthy American male, born and raised in the South.

I happen to like my teat.
I do not want to be weaned off my teat.

If your teat is dry, does not afford you healthy nutrition for sustaining your life - you might want to go find another teat that does.

SoundWave
October 4, 2006, 04:51 PM
But dealers at gun shows - popular throughout the heartland - are exempt from the federal law, making it easy for criminals or children to lay their hands on whatever they want. The semi-automatic TEC-9 machine pistols used by Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold at Columbine were bought at a Colorado gun show.

This is a misleading statement. The Tec-9 was bought by Mark Manes on Aug. 2, 1998, at the Tanner Gun show. Manes later sold the guns to Eric and Dylan through a middle man, Philip Duran.

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0618arst1.shtml

Eric and Dylan were never at a gunshow, and this is not an example of a "gunshow loophole". The gun was sold legally to Mark Manes.

Glockfan.45
October 4, 2006, 05:21 PM
Please lets not turn this forum into a Brit, or American bashing thread. Remember without Russias involvement its doubtful the U.S would have been very effective in the European theater. All countries that made sacrifices should be honored.

Master Blaster
October 4, 2006, 05:29 PM
That explains why a nationwide ban on semi-automatic assault weapons, introduced during the Clinton administration, was allowed to expire on the eve of the 2004 presidential election - despite the abiding fear of al-Qa'ida sleeper cells possibly operating in the US and planning another attack.

Truely Horsemanure.

Did we ban truck rentals, Diesel fuel, and fertilizer?

Did you know that you could get tons of amonium nitrate without a background check???

When did Alqaeda use assault rifles bought in the USA to launch a terrorist attack???????

The only influence the NRA has is 4 million members who go to the polls and vote.

Deanimator
October 4, 2006, 05:51 PM
Please lets not turn this forum into a Brit, or American bashing thread. Remember without Russias involvement its doubtful the U.S would have been very effective in the European theater. All countries that made sacrifices should be honored.

At the same time, it was the Molotov-Ribbontrop Pact which allowed the Germans to conquer Poland and western Europe. The Soviets were still delivering essential strategic goods to the Germans, the day they invaded the USSR.

Geno
October 4, 2006, 06:00 PM
We kicked their backsides once, and they haven't gotten over it. I am sure that if the English had been able to keep firearms away from us then, we would still be subjugated to the lunacy of this tripe now. Bring your tea bags. Flush them down the toilet at 6:00 p.m. Remember, flush 3 times. It's a long way to London.

Doc2005

Fosbery
October 4, 2006, 06:41 PM
We kicked their backsides once, and they haven't gotten over it. I am sure that if the English had been able to keep firearms away from us then, we would still be subjugated to the lunacy of this tripe now. Bring your tea bags. Flush them down the toilet at 6:00 p.m. Remember, flush 3 times. It's a long way to London.

Perhaps my moving to the US was a bad idea...

rbernie
October 4, 2006, 06:47 PM
Bring your tea bags. Flush them down the toilet at 6:00 p.m. Remember, flush 3 times. It's a long way to London.Do you flush an apple pie every time Sarah Brady says something stoooopid? Heck - you're probably going to put your plumbers' kids thru college, at this rate. :)

C'mon, guys. This is about a mentality, not a country. It *is* ironic that the UK seems destined to sink back into that mentality time and again, but it's hardly confined to their shores.

Rebecca Peters is not British, nor is Sarah Brady.

sm
October 4, 2006, 06:51 PM
UK -
I rec'd the most wonderful picture of a grandson and daughter of a Moderator here on THR.
This Moderator is originally from the UK, and is a legal US Citizen now, having worked hard, and done the paperdrill.
He teaches CCW and has introduce many to responsible firearm ownership and safe use.

New Zealand-
One of my closest friends on this Board is in NZ.

Australia-
I have communicated with many from Australia.

In real life, I have met this UK Mod in person, I stay in contact with him, and my buddy in NZ .

I have worked locally with many folks from UK, NZ, Australia.
Add the who knows where all , whom all I have attended classes with, from all over the world.

I am NOT going to paint with a broad brush countries - the people within and residing therein

Too many of these people have been here for the US, and still are side by side with us in conflicts around the world.

Oleg pays for this bandwith, he and his family are from the Soviet Union.

No, my role is to set by my living examples to promote Responsible Firearm Ownership.

Enough of us do this, we attract others, others in other locales, locally , further away, and other countries. My hope is have enough peoples fight with voice and votes to change the Political climates.

Hardest thing I personally had to deal with , the lady , of Vietnamese blood, a classmate.
I lost friends in 'Nam, and many that did come back, did not come back whole.

It was not this classmate's fault, she was not born yet, when this conflict was going on. I may not understand her Country, I did accept her, her wishes to be free, and enjoy freedoms as a US citizen as she is.

My perspectives you understand...

Harve Curry
October 5, 2006, 12:43 AM
Fosbery studies history, read his signature line.
It's the media again controlling the mindset of a majority of people who have not been taught history and that history is passe' .

22-rimfire
October 5, 2006, 12:59 AM
Fosbery, as far as I'm concerned, you're welcome here in the US anytime. But, please follow the immigration rules. :)

You can find just about any half-truth or or out-right lie in the press. It is one of the freedoms that are abused. I wish the press would police themselves, but that is probably way too much to expect.

"The price of freedom is as high as it ever was, but its (perceived) value is at an all time low." Great statement Mr. Henry Bowman! I like it.

got cope?
October 5, 2006, 01:39 AM
From the article. :banghead:
Is there hope for an end to America's gun violence?

Yes...

* With every high-profile mass murder, victims' advocates and gun-control lobbyists gain more visibility, and more influence

* Someone, eventually, will make the link to homeland security: why make it so easy for al-Qa'ida to acquire assault weapons?

* The numbers of American children who die in gun violence means sooner or later, the madness will stop

Eightball
October 5, 2006, 01:45 AM
it's not even worth commenting on. what is depressing, is that someone, somewhere is reading it and believing it...maybe lots of people.Yep. Very saddening.:(

And yet, the same people who believe this will never look at the data with corresponding/related values between gun usage/ownership and reduction of crime.

Or the fact that our police forces have been proven to have no duty to protect individual citizens' safety.

Or...................

You get my point.

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