Lever carbine


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madmike
October 4, 2006, 11:51 AM
What's the consensus on .357 as a carbine defensive round?

(Consensus....right:))

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dracphelan
October 4, 2006, 01:26 PM
I own one, and it shoots real well. If a 357 round out of a handgun will take someone down, so will a round from a carbine. The only place it loses to other carbines is in speed of reloads and tacticool accessories. IMO, it does beat other non-revolver pistol caliber carbines (45 ACP, 9mm, 40) in range. I would trust a 357 out to about 150 yards. The semi-auto carbines out to 100 yards would be the distance I would trust them at.

For general information, I won both a Marlin 357magnum 1894 carbine and a Mechtech 1911 carbine conversion unit.

jbharned
October 4, 2006, 01:36 PM
Nasty.
The 125 load out of my 4" 686 is hot but when fired out of my Puma 92 lever gun it's amazing. About 3" groups at 100 yards and still faster than muzzle speed from my revolver. It's the original hillbilly assault rifle.

madmike
October 4, 2006, 01:38 PM
So, in a zombie/SHTF scenario, what range would you trust .357 against unarmored opponents?

ArmedBear
October 4, 2006, 01:40 PM
As far away as I could hit someone with iron sights.

ozwyn
October 4, 2006, 01:47 PM
for SHTF/Zombie/katrina I would definitely think well of .357 for the common expected uses from a carbine.

Add to the usefulness of the round in a revolver, the ability to digest .38 rounds and the likely commonplace ammunition and it looks like a pretty dang good prospect for a general purpose carbine.

but I am typing from a bias towards storing only one or two calibers of ammunition which can support a good range of uses.

High Planes Drifter
October 4, 2006, 02:13 PM
I read here on THR that Buffalo Bore offers a load that, when shot from a carbine, produces velocities near that of a 30-30. IIRC velocities were over 2200fps at the muzzle:eek:. A .35" projectile moving at that speed is nothing to sneeze at. A handy little carbine would be a great choice for defense IMO.

Stiletto Null
October 4, 2006, 02:28 PM
I still wish someone would make a .44-.308 wildcat. I guess .429-.308 would be more correct.

ArmedBear
October 4, 2006, 02:37 PM
Here is the Buffalo Bore ammo:

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#357

Another plus of the .357: this heavy stuff will work fine in any standard revolver, as well as the Marlin 1894, if you don't mind a little heavy recoil.

Rem700SD
October 4, 2006, 02:43 PM
Stiletto,
what about the .35 whelen cartridge? is that close?

Stiletto Null
October 4, 2006, 02:46 PM
Is .35 short-action?

I just think it would be awesome to have something like a FAL firing what amounts to .44 SuperMag.

ArmedBear
October 4, 2006, 02:46 PM
.35 Whelen is a necked-up .30-06 (a tad bigger than .338-06). Definitely not short-action.:)

It is, however, available in the new Remington 750 Woodsmaster semiauto rifle and carbine. And I've seen 10-rounders for it. So maybe not from a FAL, but you could put a few of 'em downrange pretty quick, from a light and compact little rifle.

Dave Markowitz
October 4, 2006, 02:55 PM
.357 Magnum from a rifle is a good defensive choice, IMO. Factory loads have the same energy at 100 yards from a carbine as they do from a revolver at the muzzle.

I would stick with 158 grain bullets rather than the 125s, however. The 125s from a carbine may expand so much at close range that they give insufficient penetration.

Ben Shepherd
October 4, 2006, 03:21 PM
As posted above:

With careful workup you can run a 158 grain 357 slug faster than a 30-30 runs a 150.

The 357 won't shoot as flat as the 30-30 however, due to the lousy B.C. of the pistol slug.

ArmedBear
October 4, 2006, 03:39 PM
The 357 won't shoot as flat as the 30-30 however, due to the lousy B.C. of the pistol slug.

True.

I think you can sight in the rifle for +/- 3" out to 150 yards or so for the .357, but a tad past 200 for the standard .30-30 (new Hornady plastic tips shoot flatter).

I figure 150 yards is as far as I'd ever shoot an iron-sighted carbine defensively, or at most game. With some holdover, it'll shoot farther.

Interestingly, because of the BC of pistol slugs, a .44 Magnum carbine doesn't shoot any flatter than the .357, and runs out of energy just as quick. Up close, it packs a bit more punch, though that's really only an issue with big game or attacking bears.:)

madmike
October 4, 2006, 03:43 PM
I'm asking partly because that's my wife's preferred round and action. Heavier recoil she can handle but doesn't like.

So, anyone think .357 isn't powerful enough for self defense to 150 yards? Is a longer range desireable or practical with something else?

Stiletto Null
October 4, 2006, 03:47 PM
Well, 150yd starts to be a bit much for .357 bullets (low BCs)...ever consider an SKS? :D

madmike
October 4, 2006, 04:05 PM
She's not a fan of semi, and the SKS is waaay to nose heavy. What about a lever gun with 7.62X39?

Heavy Metal Hero
October 4, 2006, 04:17 PM
Defense....out to 150 yds? Why would need anything further? I would hope that at 150 yds you would be trying to escape rather than fight.

Ben Shepherd
October 4, 2006, 04:36 PM
For your stated purpose it's a perfect choice.

It has enough power to 150 easy enough, and ballistically at 150 it's ok. Past 150 is a different matter however.

The biggest reason it's a winning choice?

SHE likes it. What me, you, or any of our fellow internet commandos say doesn't matter. If she likes it, she'll shoot it. The more she shoots it, the more confident/comfortable she'll become.

That, my friend is THE key factor.

My wife?
EXACT same thing: Yugo's way too nose heavy. So what'd she pick?
My 16" octagon barreled, fancy stocked, 94 trapper with the "traditional" curved buttplate, and gold bead buckhorn sights. :eek: I'm not happy with it, but she is. And she said I can have a new rifle(within reason) for Christmas!!

sm
October 4, 2006, 05:08 PM
Positive

ArmedBear
October 4, 2006, 05:40 PM
7.62x39 is nearly identical to .30-30. Might as well just get a .30-30; they're easy to find.:)

A lever carbine is designed to fill the niche between a pistol and a "real" rifle, like a .30-06 with a scope and a bipod. For that, MPBR +/1 3" at 150 yards, and 200+ yard effectiveness is more than plenty!

Brian Williams
October 4, 2006, 06:00 PM
Absolutely

madmike
October 4, 2006, 07:34 PM
I was already convinced because she likes it and it is a good stopper.

The second part I was curious about (Send in the flames!):)

Is, if .357 from a carbine is considered a good stopper, why is MORE POWERFUL 5.56mm considered not by so many people?

I know the ballistics, I know what they'll do, I know how both handle...so is it just the "but that's a LITTLE .22!" thing I heard so many times on active duty? Or some other psychological block?

(And since her snub and 6" are both .357, it makes stocking ammo for SHTF REALLY easy...as well as the ARs and M4s we both have and were military trained on.)

ArmedBear
October 4, 2006, 08:00 PM
MORE POWERFUL 5.56mm

It has more energy because it's moving faster.

Terminal performance, however, can be quite different. 158 grains of slug is going to have a different effect on a target than 55 grains of spitzer.

Some argue that slower but bigger and heavier makes for a better "stopper."

I think that we'd all agree that a bowling ball, rolling slowly, is more likely to knock you off your feet than a tennis ball, at any speed you want.

That's the theory of the "slow and heavy" proponents. I can't say what's right.

Now I don't think that anyone thinks an EXPANDING .223 bullet at 150 yards or less is ineffective on a human attacker. That's not what the military uses, nor is it the longest range you might expect in battle -- not personal defense or law enforcement, but a military battle.

Apples and oranges, all 'round.:)

Stiletto Null
October 4, 2006, 08:04 PM
Well, .45ACP is pretty anemic in terms of kinetic energy.

Yet it seems to thump people down even in roundnose hardball form disproportionately better than 9mm.

Of course, terminal effects studies are horribly subjective, but I think as a rule of thumb, if you have two projectiles of equivalent kinetic energy, the one that's wider/heavier is probably going to do more damage.

madmike
October 4, 2006, 08:21 PM
If there were such a thing as a bullet that would knock someone off their feet, that might be a convincing argument.

In this case, the bullet that transfers the energy to the target will do the most damage.

Whether it shatters or mushrooms, the Ke goes into the target.

I'll have to send Old Painless some ammo to compare.

madmike
October 4, 2006, 08:24 PM
Well, .45ACP is pretty anemic in terms of kinetic energy.

Um... .45 is SUBSTANTIALLY more powerful than 9mm. Especially if you load it to the same pressures as modern 9mm, which is "hot" compared to the original.

9mm: 270-440 foot pounds

.45: 355-600 foot pounds

RKellogg
October 4, 2006, 09:40 PM
NOT TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT TO MUCH , BUT HAS ANYONE EVER HUNTED DEER WITH THE 357 - 44 MAG LEVERS . WHAT KIND OF GROUPS DO YOU GET AT 100 YARDS . I HAVE BEEN ON A LEVER ACTION KICK LATELY AND THESE SOUND LIKE THEY WOULD BE FUN TO HUNT DEER WITH . :confused:

Stiletto Null
October 4, 2006, 10:34 PM
WHOA THERE EASY ON THE CAPS

Anyway, Ruger calls their semiauto .44 carbine the "Deerslayer". Take that as you will. :)

I hear that people do juts fine with their .357 and .44 leverguns in hunting deer; just remember to keep your shots inside 100yd or so, they're really not meant for long range shooting.

ArmedBear
October 4, 2006, 11:22 PM
In this case, the bullet that transfers the energy to the target will do the most damage.

Well, first off, stopping is not about damage, it's about stopping. But you have the right idea.

That's where terminal performance comes in. A larger-caliber, heavier bullet will behave differently from a smaller caliber, lighter bullet. Energy matters, but there's more to life than ft-lbs. Transfer is not just about the energy that hits the target, but rather what happens to it then.

Otherwise, birdshot and buckshot would be equivalent in terms of penetration, and they're not. They do different things when they hit.

Less dramatic, but perhaps just as important, is the difference between a .223 bullet and a .357 bullet.

sm
October 4, 2006, 11:38 PM
madmike,
Your Posts #26 and #24 make this lever action .357 a no brainer.

Basically your wife picked out this action and caliber. Right there, no need to go further.
To futher support this action and caliber, she prefers, she also likes and carries a .357.

Hey madmike, we understand covering your backside - and preventing Gunhilda from writing about you. :D

I say your are covered on all flanks. Post pics of wife's new lever action in .357...:)

Steve

madmike
October 5, 2006, 12:19 AM
I have to get one and refit it with a pistol grip instead of straight stock, first. Then we'll see if she'll pose for Oleg again, like the infamous black powder revolver image.:evil:

High Planes Drifter
October 5, 2006, 08:48 AM
madmike wrote:
I have to get one and refit it with a pistol grip instead of straight stock, first.
---------------------------------

How would you do that with the gun being a leveraction Mike? If you find a way to attach a pistol grip, please post pics!:)

RKellog, both the .357 and 44 mag are fine deer guns for close work. My FIL killed an elk years ago with his Marlin .357.

madmike
October 5, 2006, 09:00 AM
Please look up the definition of a "pistol grip stock," and see Marlin and Winchester lever action catalogs for examples.

Brian Williams
October 5, 2006, 09:06 AM
Refitting a lever from a straight to a pistol grip is really fitting a pistol grip floorplate or triggerplate and lever along with all the requsite goodies on the floorplate and the buttstock. Some people have reported buying a new gun that was the opposite of what they had and swapping all the parts then selling the left over gun.

madmike
October 5, 2006, 09:16 AM
I've taken extensive looks and seen one mod. It can be done with some smithing to the tangs and a lever change.

Swapping two guns out may be the easiest, though not the cheapest. But it's an idea.

ndh87
October 5, 2006, 01:41 PM
NOT TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT TO MUCH , BUT HAS ANYONE EVER HUNTED DEER WITH THE 357 - 44 MAG LEVERS . WHAT KIND OF GROUPS DO YOU GET AT 100 YARDS . I HAVE BEEN ON A LEVER ACTION KICK LATELY AND THESE SOUND LIKE THEY WOULD BE FUN TO HUNT DEER WITH .

I've hunted with my marlin model 1894ss (.44mag) it drops deer without a problem anywhere inside 100 yards (assuming you get a good hit) and the accuracy is EXCELENT. Its quite easily my favorite rifle.

ArmedBear
October 5, 2006, 02:04 PM
You can buy a pistol grip .357. It's a tad more expensive than a Marlin 1894, but it's a rather fine-looking piece.:)

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,3422.htm

http://www.buffaloarms.com/prodimg/CA213.jpg

madmike
October 5, 2006, 03:48 PM
That's actually a semi pistol grip, and :eek: I can buy 3-4 Marlins for that price.

sm
October 5, 2006, 04:19 PM
madmike,
YOU are having too much fun with all this. Pistol Grip - next you will share your wife wants a Pony and that will lead to needing a scabbard.

"Sorry about the mess in your studio Mr.Volk." clop, clop, clop...:D

Gee, you sound like the kind of guy that would give his daughter a purple poodle shooter...;)

"Daughter, does this Pistol Grip lever action in .357 make mommie's butt look big?"
"No mom, but that wood clashes really bad with those shoes..."

<ducks>

Steve

madmike
October 5, 2006, 05:01 PM
Pony, bah.

She wants a Thompson and a gloss red Auburn coupe.

sm
October 5, 2006, 06:08 PM
That will get her style points...:)

ARKIESTEEL
October 5, 2006, 06:21 PM
I got a .45 long colt 1894 that I have used for deer in brush behind the house. 200 grain corbons work great.

madmike
October 5, 2006, 06:44 PM
The last photo got her style points and me braggin rights:evil:

Mike_in_OC
October 6, 2006, 12:41 AM
Best thing about a .357 Lever is the variety of ammo. You can shoot very mild .38 specials up to hot 180-200gr .357.

Its my trunk gun.

jjohnson
October 6, 2006, 08:15 AM
Oh, come on, if the lady likes it, you already have your answer.

Good thing is, it's not a bad answer at all. Points made are all pretty good - if you stick with the original question. Sure, other calibers may be better, other actions may be more appropriate, (mention of SKS) but if the real question is about the .357 in a lever carbine for the lady - thumbs up :D

I have a Rossi (Puma, 92) in .357 and it's easy to hit with, the 125gr hollow points are lethal, and at anything like a 'defense' range, plenty of firepower, easy for the 'casual' shooter (like my wife) to deal with. And oh, yeah, ammo is a no brainer there. Cheap 158gr lead RN .38s for plinking (if you don't reload) available anywhere, hot magnum ammo for real business - there's not a down side to the equation. External hammer is a bonus, too, when you hand a 'casual shooter' a weapon or have one of those 'home defense' situations - it's easy to tell if it's ready to go or not.

madmike
October 6, 2006, 08:23 AM
She's a combat photographer for the Army. Not exactly a "casual shooter." She just likes levers.

And I also wanted the secondary answer about .223 vs .357, since there is a Browning lever in .223 and it would match with our other ammo.

ArmedBear
October 6, 2006, 12:42 PM
Don't touch the Browning lever. It's a dangerous gun to handle, unless you have the money budgeted.:D

Seriously, though, they don't list .223 Rem on the website. They list .22-250 Rem and .243 Win.

madmike
October 6, 2006, 12:58 PM
It used to be in .223, but I prefer the Marlin.

dracphelan
October 6, 2006, 01:39 PM
Mike, Marlin is the brand I own. I love it. If you want more information, you can also check out the forums at http://www.leverguns.com

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