[ChrisCox]

I'm a 5'10", 135# female who grew up with a 20g shotgun, looking for a CC gun / holster that I can wear in the Oklahoma summer while working on a ranch (along the interstate with all of the weirdos that come with that). I've applied for a carry permit and want something that can go anywhere with me once I get it. I typically wear a T shirt tucked in and wranglers. I've got a Springfield XD - 40 that I LOVE but it's just too big to carry all of the time and I tend to not have it when I need it. It does fit inside my waistband, but is not something I'd wear all day. I usually carry it in an Uncle Mikes sidekick cliped outside of my jeans. My XD has misfed 3 times (same box of ammo) and I'm afraid it might have been due to being under stress and I may have limp wristed it... (loud noise does scare away coyotes though). Makes me think I should get a revolver for CC reliablility as I WILL be under stress if I ever have to fire at a person.

I shot a s steel S&W J frame 38 the other day and do not really want to deal with more recoil than that had. My hand was just not comfortable on the grip either (I do not have small hands) but it's something I would carry before the XD. Are the little Kel Tec P3AT's reliable? How do they kick compared to the XD or J frame? I love the looks of the little semi autos but am afraid I might not be able to control it too well.

We are going to OKC this weekend gun shopping and I know I'll be overwhelmed with the choices...

Thanks for any help,

Chris

[NineseveN]

Why not an XD Subcompact in an easy shooting 9mm?
http://www.springfield-armory.com/prod-xdpstl-sub-compact.shtml

Maybe your hands are too large for that? Hmm, what about the XD don't you like for carry? That should give us a baseline on where your head is.

Also, an Unlce Mike's holster is not the ideal carry solution. A good holster with a stiff belt can make a gun more comfortable than you'd think. Personally, I say the carry position, holster/belt come before the gun under most circumstances.

[BullfrogKen]

Working on a ranch, in Wranglers, and a tucked in T shirt. . . I think you just gained the attention of a lot of the young men here, Chris.


How about a good, mid sized revolver, in a sturdy leather holster that attached with belt loops rather than a nylon clip on pouch? I know when I'm doing work, my S&W 66 or Colt Detective Special (Cobra) in a good leather holster with a sturdy belt is pretty secure and allows me to work without worrying about it.

[romma]

to THR,,, Are you a lawyer for the NRA? You two share the same name...

[miko]

Chris, one thing about J-frames is they have a gazillion grips of all sizes available for them - from the smallest, thinnest 2-finger, open backtrap Hogue Bantam to really bulky 2- and 3-finger ones.

I would suggest a steel or aluminum J-frame snub loaded with 38 +P in a pocket holster.
If you go with a steel J-frame tucked into a wasitband, try a 3-inch barrel model 60. It conceals almost as well (the grip is the conspicious part) and hits/aims better.

I would not let my wife carry a small semi-auto - period.

miko

[NineseveN]

I would not let my wife carry a small semi-auto - period.

Welcome to the 1920's! :rolleyes:


Some good info for the OP: www.corneredcat.com

[ChrisCox]

No Lawyer. Just a horse trainer (and I'm not the guy from australia either :) ).

I like the XD and the glocks but all of the little ones I've gotten my hands on have had such a short grip and are almost as bulky as the one I've got. I'm happy with the XD around here. I pull my shirt over it enough so that it's not real noticable - unless I want someone to see it. :evil:
I want something that will conceal better and that I don't have to change the way I dress to carry in public. (Holster suggestions would be appriciated too.) I'm not the Annie Oakley type, I just want to be able to protect myself.

Miko - I guess I need to look at a J frame with a bigger grip. That might make it more comfortable. Why wouldn't you let your wife carry a small semi auto pistol?

[Bazooka Joe71]

One of my buddies carried a Titanium Taurus .38 snubby for awhile, and he loved it. He carried it on his ankle under his jeans and never noticed it.

[abarth]

Chris, they have grip extension for both Glock and Xd. I have an XD subcompact in 9mm and it CC pretty well. I agree it is a bit bulky. If you want a thinner gun, how about a 1911 commander or officer in 45acp. They don't carry as much ammos as the XD, but more than a 6 shooter. I love the sight of a woman holding a SS 1911.;)

[MatthewVanitas]

The Kahr is worth checking out: extremely slim, available in 9mm or .40, steel or polymer frame, in various sizes.

Trigger is a little different from your XD, but not enormously so.

-MV

[mwpslp]

I have found the Kahr PM9 to be easily concealable as well. Very thin and tucks in low in an IWB holster.

[Soybomb]

Sig p239's usually get good reviews for being managable for the ladies!

The keltec p32 and p3at are good little guns as well. A bit harder to shoot but a less powerful cartridge so they're not bad at all.

[ChrisCox]

I don't figure I'll be getting into too many gun fights. 5 or 6 shots should be plenty.

I've been wanting to look at a Kahr 9mm PM9, I'm a little afraid of being able to control the recoil on such a little gun though. I'm really used to the trigger on the XD and had some trouble getting used to the pull on the J frame. I'm not used to the double action so would have to practice, but the guys tell me I shouldn't practice with it too much if it hurts. ("It won't matter if someone is coming at you") But I will not carry a gun that I am not comfortable with.

[NineseveN]

ChrisCox:

What kinda of a price range are you going for?

[Geronimo45]

Bersa .380, CZ 83, Beretta 84, Walther PPK/s, CZ RAMI.

[mwpslp]

Well should you decide to consider a CZ 83 I just listed one for sale on the forum today with holster and accessories.:D Actually the recoil on the PM9 is not nearly as bad as you might think for it's size.

[ChrisCox]

I hate to say this, but price isn't that big a deal. Of course I'd like to only spend a couple hundred, but I wouldn't be against spending $6-700 or more, if I had to, for the right set up where I'd feel safe & comfortable.

[NineseveN]

Maybe you could look into 1911's then. The slim profile and single stack setup make carrying a dream for most folks I know. You could go with a 4.25" barrel Commander (Colt, Smith and Wesson are two brands I prefer) or a 4" Springfield Armory Champion model (I have one and I really like it) and keep the overall gun small.

Springfield Armory and S&W have awesome service and lifetime warranties, I've never dealt with Colt. The thing with the SA Champion is that it has an odd guide rod set-up and it will cost you more to maintain it because you can only get the assembly from SA, whereas on the 4.25 Smith and Wessons, when it's time to change springs, you just change the springs, not the assembly. Both the S&W and the SA come in regular and lightweight models (I have a lightweight model). The lighter guns will have more felt recoil, but not by a lot.

http://www.springfield-armory.com/prod-pstl-1911-ch.shtml

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=14719&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15709&isFirearm=Y
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=14724&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15709&isFirearm=Y

I wouldn't worry about the recoil of the .45, many people (myself included) feel that it has less punch to it than a .40.

[weregunner]

Chris, How about a Kramer Confidant shirt holster? Made of mesh and fits under a shirt or blouse. Has two pockets on either side to carry the revolver or auto and on for spare ammo. One can wear a shirt with snaps and leave one undone if need to get to the weapon quickly or do a Hackathorn rip which is pulling hard enough to pop the snaps or buttons and then reach for the pistol. Don Hume,Galco, and Bianchi are supposed to have a women's line of holsters though my info may be dated a bit. Uncle Mikes holsters would find a fit for what ever you carry. The 3 inch Ruger SP101 5 shot revolver in .38 or .357magnum may be a good balance between portability and power. It is heavier and beefier than other snubs. This would alleviate recoil somewhat. 3 inch barrel would give a modest velocity boost and the sight radius would be longer and possibly give you a more accurate shot. SP101s are stainless stell. The revolver would allow ammo versatility. .38 specials for practice and .357 mags if that power is needed. Mas Ayoob and other writers have info on drawing firearms, even for women, form many different holsters and locations. Good luck.

[kludge]

Does OK require concealed carry? I'd say keep it on your hip when working on the ranch - unconcealed - is it private property? The last thing I would want is an IWB holster while trying to work.

For the times you need to go concealed, I'd recommend a 'fanny pack' holster that you keep in the truck. I've seen some nice leather ones at the local gun show that have a separate zipper on the front for your wallet, etc., and don't scream GUN! when worn by a woman.

I also have an XD-40 and love it!!! If you already have a gun you love there's no reason to get another gun IMHO, though I would go with Masaad Ayoob and say, if you do want a compact, get the compact version of the XD-40, then pratice with one is practice with the other. Yes it's hard(er) to carry concealed in summer clothing, and I prefer to tuck my t-shirts with jeans too, but I'm never in jeans in the summer... but I don't work on a ranch either. I generally wear shorts and untucked doesn't look out of place.

[miko]

miko: would not let my wife carry a small semi-auto - period.
Welcome to the 1920's!

What? She says the same thing – “To my way of thinking, a minimal effective caliber for defense is .380 ACP. '”.


Miko - I guess I need to look at a J frame with a bigger grip. That might make it more comfortable. Why wouldn't you let your wife carry a small semi auto pistol?
Small semi-autos are much, much more sensitive to the variations in ammo, cleanliness, good grip and just plain chance when it comes to cycling reliably. If the stars come together and it does manage to shoot more than once, there is still the issue of bullet effectiveness.

A 2 or 3” barrel J-frame or Ruger 101 is the biggest punch one can pack in a size/weight and it is not sensitive at all to ammo power, bullet shape, obstructions (might need to shoot from inside a purse or pocket or when sgrappling with a bad guy), limp-wresting, etc.

In small semi-autos, I would recommend looking at a Kahr in .40 – the steel frame, not a polymer. Steel frames do not have problems that polymers experience – related to limp-wristing (weak grip) and others. The recoil with a steel frame is amazingly mild – I checked it with .40, not 9mm and it was less than I expected.

With regard to the trigger pull, find the way to exercise your trigger finger. The effort is not usual for most humans (unless you are a masseuse), so that muscle is very weak but responds to training real fast. In a few weeks you will be puzzled by someone referring to 8-10 lbs as “heavy” pull.

miko

[antsi]

-------quote-----
I've been wanting to look at a Kahr 9mm PM9, I'm a little afraid of being able to control the recoil on such a little gun though.
------------------

A great small gun for soaking up recoil is the SIG P239 in 9mm. They are relativley small and flat, but the slide is machined from a solid piece of stainless steel. This makes it a bit heavy for its size, but very sweet-shooting. This same gun comes chambered in 40SW and 357SIG and it is still quite manageable in those calibers. In 9mm, it shoots "like buttah."

If SIG's DA-SA trigger issues and decocking trouble you, you could look at a 239 with SIG's new DAK trigger system.

Second the notion regarding open carry - would it be acceptable where you are going? Most concealed carry options are somewhat awkward for physical farm/ranch work.

[ChrisCox]

I'm waiting on my CC permit. I do open carry at home (ranch) quite a bit but don't want to get too much of a reputation so I try to keep it covered most of the time when people are around. I'm trying to sell to the public, so am kinda caught between welcoming visitors and being scared of 'em. A lot of our customers (especially from other countries) are not comfortable when the see the 22 (varmint gun) in the barn let alone if they knew why I had my T shirt untucked...

We did some experimenting with the XD and are pretty sure it was the ammo and not me. Cannot do anything to get it to make a mistake on this box. If I'm going to buy something to carry though, I want it to work every time I pull the trigger. And be small enough to carry even when I don't think I"ll need it...

[tegemu]

Welcome aboard. I don't think there is a better source for info about women and guns than PAX's website, www.corneredcat.com . That lady knows whereof she speaks and you will most likely find superb guidance on your questions there. Her site is a fun read as well, and loaded with info valuable to men too.

[Doug S]

If you can get over the caliber, the Kel-Tec P32 has a pretty good reputation for reliability. I and two friends bought early models 30XXX, and all three were flawless. You can carry it anywhere without a problem. My car keys take up more room in my pocket. You could hide it with minimal effort.

[Marshall]

I think a J Frame in an IWH would be your best bet. I carry a model 60, steel 357 Mag J Frame in my jeans all the time, I forget it's there.

You might look at a Model 637 S&W J Frame in .38 special. It's the 642's brother except with an exposed hammer. I prefer them.

There's 187 million IWB holster for J Frames. Do a search on them and you'll have all kinds of brands to look into. :)

Model 637 (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&productId=14761&tabselected=tech&isFirearm=Y&parent_category_rn=)

[ChrisCox]

Thank you to EVERYONE for all of the help and info so far!!!
Okay, so I'm leaning towards a steel or airweight S&W 642 type. Maybe a Kel Tec P3AT or P11 or Kahr PM9 or .40. I do not want an exposed hammer.

Anyone had any experience with a J frame in a smart carry? From the pictures I've seen on the website it should work real good with a semi auto but I've yet to hear about someone carrying a revolver in one.

[Paladin7]

Hi Chris, just thinking about your requirements... you need something sufficiently reliable, powerful, comfortable to shoot, and comfortable to carry around the ranch. A companion, always with you...

I like the revolver option. Two things you may want to consider. If you are using a J Frame S&W, Craig Spegel wood boot grips make a great difference and don't add bulk. You can get the rubber Uncle Mike's version (very cheap) to try out. I wouldn't consider carrying rubber stocks as they will pull at your covering garment and may compromise concealment. Stick with wood.

Call Teddy Jacobsen www.actionsbyt.com and get an action job on that gun. It will make a world of difference, and if done by Teddy, reliability will not be compromised. Teddy is the best in the business (only does action work) and semi retired but explain your situation and I'm sure he will help.

If you go the auto route... a Kahr K9 Elite 98 or Elite 2000 is a good choice. The Elite models appear to have a faster trigger reset. Stick with the all steel models as they are generally more reliable than the polymer guns. They are heavier but shoot great. Kahr does have its QC issues, so examine the gun carefully (field strip prior to purchase). Also, you need a proper holster for the Kahr that covers the trigger.

I think strong side outside the waistband carry covered by a photographers vest, or something similar may work well for you. It will certainly be the most comfortable for all day carry. If you opt for inside the waistband try the Milt Sparks Versa Max. These are great custom holsters that can be worn IWB and are tuckable (shirt can be worn over them).

http://www.miltsparks.com/

Those are my thoughts, hope this helps...

[kludge]

Chris, I will give you my experience on the guns your list...

My wife has a P-11 and it's quite concelable, I carry it when I can't carry the XD. It has been flawless, and can be had for less than $250 around here. the recoil is snappy, but if you can handle the XD-40, you shouldn't have a problem here. The trigger does take some getting used to; it's quite heavy. It's not quite the pocket gun that the P3AT is, but it's quite a bit more powerful. Most say the recoil of the P3AT is as bad or worse than the P-11.

Another you might consider... Kel-Tec is now shipping the new PF-9, a cross between the P3AT (the trigger mechanism) and the P-11 (the barrel) in 9mm, will handle +P ammo in occasional use, and is said to have a much better trigger. See this thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=225871

The PF-9 is a single stack magazine, and the P-11 is a double stack, so the size is about the same but the PF-9 is thinner. I plan on buying one.

My mom has a hammerless Airweight, I've carried it and it's the most comfortable IWB I have used. Recoil is fairly smart, and I recommend a grip that will allow you to get your pinky on there. The size of the grip is nice for womens' hand too.

[ETXhiker]

Wow, option anxiety yet?

If you like the Kahr, check out the steel frame K-9. It is heavier, yes, but it's very compact and you can shoot it without the recoil slam of the j-frames or the polymer Kahrs.

[pax]

Chris ~

Nix the airweight option. Pleasant to hold, hurts to shoot.

Whatever you choose, make sure it fits your hand: http://www.corneredcat.com/FirstGun/TryOnGun.htm

pax

[Doug S]

Nix the airweight option. Pleasant to hold, hurts to shoot.


I'll second that motion.

[ChrisCox]

I bought a S&W 642 Airweight at the gun show yesterday for $275. Used, but didn't look like it had ever even been shot. Put it into the $15 Thunderwear I got with it and my husband didn't know I was wearing it all morning (very comfortable, but I thought it looked obvious). I'm no marksman, but at 5 yards I put every round in the target and the 5th hit the bullseye. It doesn't have much recoil at all, and fits my hand real well. The trigger pull is so smooth I was dry firing it last night with a quarter on the front sight without any problem. Need to go out and buy more ammo...

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU to everyone for all of their help. This is the first handgun that I have ever purchased and I could not be happier with it. :)

[NineseveN]

Congrats! Now let's talk about rifles. ;) J/k, enjoy your new piece, the S&W is a fine wheelgun and it should serve you well.

[ndh87]

Nix the airweight option. Pleasant to hold, hurts to shoot.

this is true, cutting weight tends to add recoil. personally i'd rather carry arround a few extra ounces and be able to make a decent follow up shot. have you considered a smaller model glock? i have a glock 17 and it is very reliable and pretty tough. cant go wrong with a good revolver though

[ChrisCox]

This airweight doesn't fire much different than my XD 40. About the same recoil, just a longer trigger pull - but it's smooth and I cannot feel the double action part like I did on the other S&W 38 I fired. I never realized what a difference there can be between different guns in the same model.

I've been carrying it for 11 hours and I don't think we are going to be sharing it... it's mine. :neener:

[Doug S]

I'm surprised to hear you say that the 642 recoil isn't bad. Have you been shooting 158 gr +P. This load has been something of a standard in the caliber for years, and I'll admit that I don't find it all that pleasant to shoot in a 642. As a matter of fact, after shooting my 642, and transitioning to my G26, the G26 recoil feels more like a 22 in comparison. Otherwise, I agree the 642 is a great carry gun. Funny, I never thought of myself as a recoil wuss:o .

[ChrisCox]

The bullets just say R P 38 SPL on them. There are about 4 different kinds of shells in the box I got them out of so I don't know which ones came in it. I'm sure they are a light target load, which I plan to stay with for a while until I get much better with it. No sense in wasting money, hearing and possible pain if I don't have to. :) We'll get some hollow point's with a bigger load when I start carrying off the ranch. I don't think I'll notice the difference if I ever get in a possition to NEED it though.

(About recoil - Your talking to the grown up little girl (6) who, after getting fairly good with the 22 was given the "big" rifle. Dad told me to be careful because it kicks. I held it away from my shoulder, got thrown on my back and was bruised really bad. Mom was not happy, but that's one of my first memory's. Taught me to really hang on to anything I've ever shot!)

[Doug S]

ChrisCox,

Sounds like you made a good choice. I agree that it is probably good to get some practice in before moving up to +P loads. I've read that many people are now recommending a 135 grain load developed specifically for 2in snubs. You may find it a nice compromise load. After you get used to the gun, you might want to move up to +p, as 38 Special from a 2in barrel is not known for its great ballistics. In regard to recoil, I'm not saying that the 642 is unmanageable, but it does take some practice to shoot it accurately and quickly with decent power loads. I think most people find the recoil of the Airweight S&W revolvers, stout, but manageable. Regular practice with your intended carry round is important, but yes I agree that in the "heat of the moment" that you probably won't hear the shot, or feel the recoil at all. Even so, your body (hand) will respond to the shot physically, and this is why it is important to be familiar with the recoil of your carry round. Please understand, that I'm not lecturing you, I'm sure you are knowledgeable. I'm simply speaking in general concerning the topic.

[cloudcroft]

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