Let's talk about Destructive Devices


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Evil Monkey
October 6, 2006, 07:25 PM
Why is it that in order to buy 40mm grenades you have to pay $200 tax for each one? It doesn't make sense. It's AMMO! We're not paying 200 for each shotgun shell to use in street sweepers and USAS 12 shotguns, why pay for the grenade?

Is it possible to open a plant domestically and start producing RPG-7 rocket launchers for the public, assuming they can afford them and live in a DD state? (It felt so good saying "RPG-7 rocket launchers for the public":evil: )

more questions to come when I learn more about DD's.:)

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MatthewVanitas
October 6, 2006, 07:40 PM
The red light and siren is flashing in the Liability Lawyers' Hall of Justice.

Squads of men in gray suits and briefcases are sliding down poles and piling into Jaguar APCs.


There's probably a very, very good reason that the manufacturers of 40mm grenades and the like don't sell them to the public, even with a DD stamp for every single round.

But I'm always open to learn new things, so I'll quit the snarky comments and watch the thread. -MV

DoubleTapDrew
October 6, 2006, 07:55 PM
The red light and siren is flashing in the Liability Lawyers' Hall of Justice.

Squads of men in gray suits and briefcases are sliding down poles and piling into Jaguar APCs.

HAHAHA! You owe me a keyboard

Assuming someone could afford to play with those wouldn't that be a carpal tunnel monday for the ATF agent that has to remove 100 or so 40mm rounds from the registry after a Knob Creek type of weekend and then sign another 100 form 4's that come in :banghead:

CleverNickname
October 6, 2006, 08:11 PM
26 USC § 5845
(f) Destructive device
The term “destructive device” means
(1) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas
(A) bomb,
(B) grenade,
(C) rocket having a propellent charge of more than four ounces,
(D) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce,
(E) mine, or
(F) similar device;
(2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode26/usc_sec_26_00005845----000-.html)

A 40mm grenade launcher falls under (2). A 40mm HE grenade falls under (1)d. If a 40mm grenade is not HE, like a practice chalk grenade, then it's not a DD.

ke6guj
October 6, 2006, 08:15 PM
You only need to pay $200 tax on exploding 40mm ammo. 40mm practice ammo with inert projectiles do not require the tax. Ammo for a DD is not always a DD itself, only if it has over a certain amount of explosive in it.

Same thing applies to your 12ga. If you had exploding 12ga. ammo, there would be a $200 tax on each piece.

That is the reason that .50BMG Rafuoss ammo is legal as pertaining to DD status, the debate on it is whether or not it is legal due to being stolen military property. Supposedly some has been sold legaly on the non-military market for testing purposes, and that is how it got loose, since the manufacturer doesn't normally sell to the public.

Fosbery
October 6, 2006, 08:23 PM
/me dons tinfoil hat.

DoubleTapDrew
October 7, 2006, 03:25 AM
What fun is practice ammo? I can toss around 1lb balls of lead and pretend they are practice grenades but it would be pretty boring.

GregGry
October 7, 2006, 03:52 AM
Same thing applies to your 12ga. If you had exploding 12ga. ammo, there would be a $200 tax on each piece.

http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=51&products_id=207

Crosshair
October 7, 2006, 04:59 AM
Assuming someone could afford to play with those wouldn't that be a carpal tunnel monday for the ATF agent that has to remove 100 or so 40mm rounds from the registry after a Knob Creek type of weekend and then sign another 100 form 4's that come in
Would suck to be that guy.:uhoh:

Fly320s
October 7, 2006, 01:56 PM
Would suck to be that guy.
Hey, that's why they are there.
Help keep the guy employed: go buy some DDs and NFA weapons.

Evil Monkey
October 7, 2006, 03:52 PM
Help keep the guy employed: go buy some DDs and NFA weapons.

:scrutiny: :confused:

Why in the world would you want to KEEP an ATF agent employed???

DirtyBrad
October 7, 2006, 06:39 PM
26 USC § 5845
(f) Destructive device
The term “destructive device” means
(1) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas
.
.
.
(2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes


According to (2), my potato gun (http://www.kickassquilts.com/Sgt-Tater.html) is a destructive device, but I've seen letters from the ATF saying they're not. Complicated and discretionary.

Jim K
October 7, 2006, 08:19 PM
"Why is it that in order to buy 40mm grenades you have to pay $200 tax for each one?"

How about a simple answer? Because it's the law. If you don't like it, (1) work to change it (fat chance), (2) go to another country where 40mm grenades are legal (if there is one), or (3) say to hell with the law, get the grenades illegally if you can, and go to jail if you are caught.

Great choices.

Jim

Evil Monkey
October 7, 2006, 08:28 PM
A little bitter are we Jim?

gezzer
October 7, 2006, 10:13 PM
According to (2), my potato gun is a destructive device, but I've seen letters from the ATF saying they're not. Complicated and discretionary.


Nope it's loaded from the muzzle so it is a muzzleloader not a DD. Same as a muzzleloading cannon.

DirtyBrad
October 8, 2006, 12:10 AM
Actually, that one is loaded from the breech. No one rat me out.

Crosshair
October 8, 2006, 02:01 AM
Co-worker built a crew serviced potato gun in his science class in High School. They where shooting it off into the woods and accidently started raining potatos on the cross country team who happened to be running through the woods.:D I think he said they had it down to 10-15 seconds for a reload.

springmom
October 8, 2006, 02:06 AM
Can't.....breathe.....laughing......too.......hard.............:D

Springmom

DoubleTapDrew
October 8, 2006, 10:24 PM
Co-worker built a crew serviced potato gun in his science class in High School. They where shooting it off into the woods and accidently started raining potatos on the cross country team who happened to be running through the woods.
HAHAHA!! I can see the team captain saying "We're under fire!!! Take cover!" as the potato artillery spotter says "DIRECT HIT!! FIRE FOR EFFECT!"

Snake Eyes
October 9, 2006, 01:56 AM
A little bitter are we Jim?
I take it this is the first of Mr. Keenan's posts you've read?

On Topic:

El Tejon and Justin have (been) volunteered (by me) to lead the fight against tyranny, using the age old weapons of logic, lawyers and bull*****e. Start by voluteering here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=226347

We'll make 40mm exploding projectiles our next cause, once we've got the machinery built and oiled.

Crosshair
October 9, 2006, 03:50 AM
HAHAHA!! I can see the team captain saying "We're under fire!!! Take cover!" as the potato artillery spotter says "DIRECT HIT!! FIRE FOR EFFECT!"
From what he told me the cross country coach was running toward them screaming, "Cease fire, cease fire." They thought there was nobody in the woods but the timing just happened to be right.

plexreticle
October 9, 2006, 04:16 AM
Just curious, what's the difference between a missle and a rocket?

Eightball
October 9, 2006, 04:38 AM
From what he told me the cross country coach was running toward them screaming, "Cease fire, cease fire." They thought there was nobody in the woods but the timing just happened to be right.hee hee hee. "Hey, moving targets!" :evil:

Missiles are guided, rockets are not.

Limeyfellow
October 9, 2006, 04:48 AM
In many states, take NC since I am here for example they are classed as weapons of mass destruction. Not something you can easily convince the BATF to let you have one for civilian purposes. They don't want crazies such as Eric Rudolph to get ahold of them easier than they do today. Makes life more difficult in areas that require martial law too.

harvester of sorrow
October 9, 2006, 05:53 AM
Not something you can easily convince the BATF to let you have one for civilian purposes.

Luckily, you don't have to "convince" the BATFE to "let" you have one. If you can afford one, and aren't in a prohibited category, and IF your state allows them, you can have one. Period.

They don't want crazies such as Eric Rudolph to get ahold of them easier than they do today.

"Easier than they do today?" Disregarding the obviously fallacious assertion that "crazies" would try to obtain a weapon like this through legal channels, when was the last time you heard of an RPG or a M-79 being used in the commission of a crime?

Keith Wheeler
October 9, 2006, 10:21 AM
What fun is practice ammo? I can toss around 1lb balls of lead and pretend they are practice grenades but it would be pretty boring.

Kind of like saying "What fun is shooting a .22? I can toss around BBs and pretend they are real bullets but it would be pretty boring."

Ever try hitting something with a grenade launcher? It ain't easy, and even with practice grenades it's a fantastic challenge not to mention a bloody lot of fun.

DoubleTapDrew
October 11, 2006, 12:51 AM
Kind of like saying "What fun is shooting a .22? I can toss around BBs and pretend they are real bullets but it would be pretty boring."

Ever try hitting something with a grenade launcher? It ain't easy, and even with practice grenades it's a fantastic challenge not to mention a bloody lot of fun.
I'm not saying it's easy or not fun. I love shooting .22 and BB guns. But if I'm shooting an M79/M203/etc. it would be a heck of a lot more fun to have a nice BOOM when it impacts rather than a burst of chalk or whatever the projectiles are made out of. Seems like more like an expensive potato gun if you can't shoot the good stuff.
BTW- the ball of lead/grenade reference was referring to not being able to get hand grenades, not 40mm stuff.

Odd Job
October 11, 2006, 02:28 PM
Speaking of destructive devices....I wouldn't mind having a go on one of these:

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn55-e.htm

CypherNinja
October 11, 2006, 03:15 PM
I've been drooling over Lahti's for as long as I've known about them.


http://www.thegunzone.com/people/lahti.html


http://www.ohioordnanceworks.com/lahti/l.htm


:D :D :D

Exposure
October 11, 2006, 04:05 PM
Even if live 40MM HE grenades weren't considered DD's would you really want to deal with a dud round sitting downrange and needing to be disposed of? :eek:


As others have already stated, 40MM HE grenades are considered DD's because they have an explosive charge of more than 1/4 ounce in them.

crunker
October 11, 2006, 09:44 PM
I've never even seen 40mm grenades on sale anywhere, I wonder why....

It would be best to get a 12 ga. shell and put an explosive charge in it (less than NFA amount). No tax no hassle easy access explosive fun.

Jim K
October 11, 2006, 09:51 PM
Bitter? Maybe.

I get sick and tired of people ranting about the law and trying to figure out ways to evade it. Then if they get caught, they pi*s and moan and cry that no one told them it was illegal to make your own machinegun or buy grenades. If you know the law, and choose, for whatever reason, to disobey it, then shut up and take the consequences if you get caught. But quit trying to convince naive people that it is OK, hoping that some kid will take you up on it and get in trouble or hurt someone else.

Jim

zahc
October 11, 2006, 10:10 PM
It doesn't make sense.

Well of course it doesn't.

boonie
October 11, 2006, 10:18 PM
I don't know if this would work, but you could try registering the 40mm brass casing as the DD, then reload it or send it back to the manufacturer for "repair" every time you shoot it. :rolleyes:

I see practice ammo as being fun for DD's, but I wouldn't want to get involved with live explosive rounds, even if they weren't extremely difficult to get.

As Exposure mentioned, dud rounds would be quite a problem.

On top of that, I'd say that even when the round goes off, it's kinda dangerous. These aren't like bullets, which rarely ricochet back to you.

The thing is gonna blow up and throw frag all over the place, when it works correctly. It may be a small chance, but there's still a chance that the frag will come back to you.
This is especially a problem if you land the thing short of your target.

Maybe I'm overestimating what a 40mm grenade can do, but I'd want to be wearing armor, helmet, serious safety glasses and probably have some kind of sandbag wall to shoot it from.

If you look around a bit, you'll find graphic photos of the aftermath of a bad 40mm "bird bomb" round. The thing detonated in the barrel and shredded the shooter's hand pretty badly. Even without the real grenades, the 40mm launchers seem somewhat hazardous.

I'm all for repealing the NFA, but I'm just pointing out that some of this stuff isn't safe to play with.


That said, I've heard rumor that there are a couple DD registered hand grenades out there. Anyone know if that's true?

USMC_2674
October 11, 2006, 10:27 PM
You can register the 40mm casing as a DD.

The major problem we are dealing with when talking about 40mm HE grenades isn't getting them (you can buy the fuses if you try hard enough, and they can be reloaded... just spend $2,000 and get 10 grenades that you can shoot each session)...

The problem is STORING them. If you thought registering them was a pain in the ass... look up the regs for storage of said explosives.

Semper Fideli

swampgator
October 11, 2006, 10:48 PM
Anyone ever given any thought as to where you'd fire these things. At one point in time I used to know the max effective range of 40 mm against area (450 yards sound right to anyone?). I seriously doubt that most people have enough land to safely fire off one of these puppies. The only time I ever did was on a range about the size of a small city.

Evil Monkey
October 11, 2006, 11:30 PM
But quit trying to convince naive people that it is OK, hoping that some kid will take you up on it and get in trouble or hurt someone else.

I'm not convincing anybody to do anything so what the hell are you talking about?

USMC_2674
October 12, 2006, 12:34 AM
Currently I own a 40mm launcher and reload for it (not HE due to expense of storage, but I have registered 40mm casings).

Quite a few people have access to a safe range for these. Farmland, ranches, etc.

I too played with HE in the services (Semper Fi), and the blast range is small enough that you don't have to worry about it really unless you are incredibly stupid. And if you are that dumb, you'll find a way to kill yourself anyways ;)

The HE 40mm's have a minimum range, it requires several rotations to arm once it leaves the barrel.

Semper Fidelis

Eightball
October 12, 2006, 01:58 AM
If you thought registering them was a pain in the ass... look up the regs for storage of said explosives.What, under my bed or in my trunk aren't good enough? :uhoh: :eek:

swampgator
October 12, 2006, 05:46 PM
Quite a few people have access to a safe range for these. Farmland, ranches, etc.
Yep, but most people don't.

I too played with HE in the services (Semper Fi), and the blast range is small enough that you don't have to worry about it really unless you are incredibly stupid. And if you are that dumb, you'll find a way to kill yourself anyways
An AD with HE isn't a "man can't believe I did that!" thread. More like "We lost a good friend" thread.

The HE 40mm's have a minimum range, it requires several rotations to arm once it leaves the barrel.
Remember that from training. I'm thinking either 15 yards or 15 rotations. Can't remember, it's been awhile.

Don't get me wrong while I firmly believe in the right to keep and bear arms, I also believe that there are a lot of people that shouldn't play with explosives.

CypherNinja
October 12, 2006, 05:55 PM
Just throwing this out. Apparently there is alot of fun ammo (short of all out HE) available for the 37mm flare launchers, which I understand are not regulated. With one of those you could 80% of the fun at like 1% of the cost. :evil:


Also, grenades are only a small part of the DD scene. Anybody got some good info on artillery? :evil: :evil: :evil:

Correia
October 12, 2006, 06:10 PM
I know a bit about this stuff.

Storage rules are killer. And your local compliance inspector will be out to check your bunker. And when I say bunker, I'm not exagerating. You need to be well off of the road also.

40mm isn't as safe to use as regular ammo either. You need the rotations to spin arm, however it is relatively common for something to bind inside the grenade and it doesn't arm. It lands out in the desert, a partial rotation away from being armed. Then when somebody picks up grenade, the piece of grit or whatever that is binding it falls out, and boo yah, live grenade.

That is why these things are usually shot only in specific ranges. You don't want to wander around at the end of the range looking for unexploded shells.

Practice rounds are perfectly legal, and they are a blast. The person that said it was like chucking a lead ball has no clue. Unless you can lob that lead ball 400+ yards through a window of course... (M79s are awesome)

There is actually a pretty active DD community in the US. They are quiet, and tend to have large amounts of disposable income. The quiet part comes in because the local community will usually raise all manner of hell when they find out that there is something called a Destructive Device Manufacturer in their neighborhood.

Correia
October 12, 2006, 06:11 PM
Artilery, mortars, destructive rockets, etc. fall under the same general framework of laws.

There are actually quite a few of these active and registered in the US.

Justin
October 12, 2006, 06:24 PM
We'll make 40mm exploding projectiles our next cause, once we've got the machinery built and oiled.

Booya. First suppressors, next, grenade launchers. :D

DoubleTapDrew
October 13, 2006, 12:29 AM
Anyone ever given any thought as to where you'd fire these things. At one point in time I used to know the max effective range of 40 mm against area (450 yards sound right to anyone?). I seriously doubt that most people have enough land to safely fire off one of these puppies. The only time I ever did was on a range about the size of a small city.
I wasn't in the military and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I saw an episode of Mail Call where they did a deal on the Mk19. The Mk19 instructor said the effective range was 2000 meters IIRC. They engaged tanks out to 1200 meters or so on the show with about 8 round bursts. That was probably one of my favorite episodes! The whole gun, tripod and all comes off the ground when it thumps. I believe the Mk19 rounds are loaded a lot hotter than what you'd fire out of a shoulder fired 40mm though.

boonie
October 13, 2006, 12:45 AM
Sounds like I was wrong on the dangerous range for 40mm grenades.

I'm curious, how stable are these things?
We've all read how explosives can deteriorate and become unstable with time/exposure. Is something like a 40mm grenade safe to sit in your safe (bunker) for a couple years? Do you need to dispose of them pretty quickly?

Or is deterioration mainly a problem with explosives that have been out sitting in a swamp for 40 years?


I was joking about registering the casing. I'm surprised that the BATFE would allow that, knowing how arbitrary some of their other rulings have been.

Keith Wheeler
October 13, 2006, 11:10 AM
If you look around a bit, you'll find graphic photos of the aftermath of a bad 40mm "bird bomb" round. The thing detonated in the barrel and shredded the shooter's hand pretty badly. Even without the real grenades, the 40mm launchers seem somewhat hazardous.

I'm all for repealing the NFA, but I'm just pointing out that some of this stuff isn't safe to play with.

That wasn't a 40mm, it was one of those junky trash pipe 37mm "flare" launchers with a highly illegal, incredibly stupid home-made round in it. Now I'm not blaming the operator for all the stupidity, he purchased a "safe binary explosive" from a slime-ball firm, and believed the bogus lines they used for marketing their "product". Still it was a questionable product firing a very questionable round, not the same thing as firing a professionally made 40mm HE round from a '203.

I won't touch one of those 37mm things. Junk. An M203, on the other hand, is on my want list, even if I just get to shoot "practice" rounds. You've got to be really careful with those "flare launchers", some of them are poorly made.

Of course if you want the fun of throwing practice grenades without the cost of a 40mm, you could always go the rifle grenade route....but man oh man those things kick.

Beren
October 13, 2006, 11:44 AM
Dang it, stop tempting me with threads like these. Is the M203 considered a DD, or only the explosive rounds? Thanks a lot, now I want one.

Keith Wheeler
October 13, 2006, 11:57 AM
Dang it, stop tempting me with threads like these. Is the M203 considered a DD, or only the explosive rounds? Thanks a lot, now I want one.

Both. However a receiver for a '203 is title I.

Wanna play?

Buy a receiver, ships to your FFL, $1500 to $2000, depending on whose and what you want.

File a form 1. Need a CLEO sign off unless your trust/LLC/INC is making the DD. Send $200 to our alphabet soup friends. "For my collection and all legal purposes." :D Having a trust/LLC makes it easier, unless your CLEO will sign off on you having a "grenade launcher".

Form 1 comes back, buy the barrel $400~$500, and there you go, M203. M79s are quite a bit more expensive, say $7k for the receiver.

Search for "Impact Guns" or "Mr. 40mm".

These prices are from memory, and may or may not reflect the market. YMMV. Future looking statements and all...

boonie
October 13, 2006, 06:38 PM
Thanks for the correction Keith, I did not realize that it was a iffy half homemade 37mm device.

OldBillThundercheif
October 13, 2006, 07:58 PM
Dang NFA...

I guess I have to wait until I win big at the casino before I can get my Mk47.
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k223/zarganuts/mk47.jpg

DoubleTapDrew
October 13, 2006, 08:21 PM
That would look so good mounted to my truck! I need to win the lottery

FIFTYGUY
October 16, 2006, 09:51 PM
It's already been pointed out:

1) You have to register each round of HE ammo as a DD, and remove it from the Registry when it's destroyed (fired). This actaully *is* a huge paperwork problem with flashbangs ("diversionary/distraction devices"), since each one is a DD and they get used quite often.

2) You have storage issues, practically and legally.

3) You have disposal issues, with the "duds" on your range. Not fun.

4) You have safety issues, especially with short rounds. I heard a guy tell once how an idiot on his boat shot at a shark with an 40mm HE round. Water slows down the velocity of the round, but does little to stop the spinning. Since the rounds are spin-armed, under the assumption that a certain number of spins equals a safe distance IN AIR, shooting into water can cause the rounds to explode at the water's surface. If the water's surface is four feet away from your muzzle, you will get sprayed with more than just water.

I have an M203 I put together, but I usually shoot practice rounds. They're plenty fun enough (especially at the indoor range :p ). But if you want something practical for home defense (which seems to be the theme here at THR :) ):

http://www.ebr-inc.net/40mm.asp

This stuff is great. It really makes your 40mm grenade launcher (under the rifle of your choice) into a sensible option for home defense. I shot the #4 fangible buckshot load, and put 100 holes through a piece of 1/2" sheetrock. Two layers of sheetrock would probably stop half of those 100 projectiles, and four would probably stop all of them. So you don't have to worry much about overpenetration. OTOH, just point, shoot, and get a mop. Switch to the rifle if they're wearing body armor and the holes in their limbs don't stop them.

FIFTYGUY
October 16, 2006, 09:51 PM
My latest project:

http://members.aol.com/fiftyguy/featherduster.html

Quit complaining about how much *your* reloads cost. :p

OldBillThundercheif
October 16, 2006, 11:54 PM
Good Lord!

2/3lb of propellant per round? Now that's what I would call a Destructive Device.

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