First Accidental Discharge, feeling pretty bad


October 6, 2006, 10:25 PM
Maybe I should call it a negligent discharge, since it was my negligence that caused it to happen in the first place. I was smoking a cigarette on the back porch, and usually when I go outside at night, I carry a handgun. Tonight, I grabbed my Dan Wesson model 14 .357 magnum.

Not having fired the gun in quite some time, I didn't remember how heavy the trigger pull was. So my intention was just to pull the trigger enough to make the hammer move a little and see if there was any trigger creep or anyhting.

Granted, i should have emptied the cylinder first. Morinic. Idiotic. I

Now I can't even think straight. I can't forgive myself. Normally, I pride myself on being overly careful and cautious. Geez, what a dumb#ss thing to do. Does anybody have any words of wisdom or anything to keep me from wanting to kick my own ass?

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Declaration Day
October 6, 2006, 10:29 PM
Well you made a mistake, atleast nobody was hurt. I don't think you need any words of wisdom; you'll remember this one for a long, long time, and I bet you'll be more cautious as a result.

October 6, 2006, 10:30 PM
First, make certain you know where the bullet went.

Then, let tomorrow be Day One with no negligent discharges.
You cannot take today away, but you can learn from it, integrate it into your psyche, and resolve to never violate the four rules again.
You have taken the first step. You are being honest with yourself, and accepting responsibility.
Begin anew, and be a safer shooter than you ever were before.

The Four Rules
1. All firearms are always loaded
2. Never let the muzzle of a firearm point at anything you are not willing to destroy
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot
4. Be sure of your target and what is behind it

October 6, 2006, 10:31 PM
Agreed. Glad no one was hurt.

Where was the muzzle pointed?

October 6, 2006, 10:33 PM
What did you hit?

October 6, 2006, 10:33 PM
Nope. Kick away!

Thanks for the reminder though, it can happen to any of us...a lot of people have trouble admitting they made a mistake. It speaks well of your character that you are willing to share your mistake. Glad it was just a wake up call and didn't result in any injuries.

October 6, 2006, 10:36 PM
Just punched a hole in my back porch, straight into the ground. For some reason, I remembered the "never point a weapon at..." part of the rules, just not the "keep finger outside of trigger guard at all times" part.

My wife is actually real understanding about all this. I thought this would buy me a one way ticket to no-gunsville, and I even felt like I deserved it. But she's being real supportive. Which is very nice.

October 6, 2006, 10:37 PM
I was starting to reply, but XavierBreath said it better than I could.

Just to add though... it was definitely a ND (c.f. Rule 3) - as long as you consider it as such, it sounds like you have a healthy attitude and will learn from this and be safer for it.

Thanks for standing up and sharing your mistake with us. If it makes you feel any better, that might make one of us that much more diligent the next time we're handling a firearm helpings avoid a costly mistake.


Taurus 66
October 6, 2006, 10:39 PM
If you're going to be testing the trigger pull or stunting exhibition, you really need to be checking to ensure cylinder is empty.

Words of wisdom here are that you're lucky you didn't hurt someone. In chronological order: The carelessness, mishandling, accidental discharge, luck that no one was maimed or killed, shot, and the bad feeling knowing what you did was wrong ... there's the real wisdom. What more can be said?

Now get over it. :)

October 6, 2006, 10:41 PM
My opinion only - but if we all never fail to apply rule #2 then no one gets hurt - just your pride!!!

Any ''fiddling'' with a gun of any sort is IMO if rule #2 in place not going to hurt anyone even if all other rules get broke. Bullet into ground - no biggie except for red face!

Regard this as a simple and salutary lesson. Those who have never had an ND are always in line to have one. :)

October 6, 2006, 10:41 PM
I think all the punishment and wisdom you need will be self administered. As long as you didn't hurt anyone, kill the dog, or do major damage , then all is well that ends well. :o

The last guy who was perfect got paraded through the streets and nailed to a cross - at least you don't have to worry about that now ! ;)

October 6, 2006, 10:51 PM
Well, somethings in life it's okay to make mistakes in, like golf, or a math quiz. It's not okay to make a mistake with firearms. I'm just really amazed at the level of my own stupidity tonight.

And to think how many times I quote the 4 rules to other people. Usually at least twice a week. Maybe I should take a bit of my own advice.

October 6, 2006, 10:54 PM
Just punched a hole in my back porch, straight into the ground.Sounds to me as though you at least had rule #2 in mind - no harm no foul.

As I keep bleating - that rule is the biggie IMO - no one hurt - just egg to wipe off face :D

October 6, 2006, 11:01 PM
You pulled all the way through a double action trigger while meaning to pull just enough to see if there was any creep?

I've got to be missing something here.

Tom Bri
October 6, 2006, 11:05 PM
Had one myself a couple of weeks ago. I have a bunch of 7 round mags and ONE eight rounder. I actually thought about this, and usually only load 7 in the eight round mag. I always count my shots, without even thinking about it, and I counted off 7, and stood down. I turned back to my car and noticed the hammer was back. Hmm, stuck my finger in the trigger guard and squeezed.....

Shot it right into the ground, a couple of yards from the car. So no harm done, thank God. But I went over and over that in my mind, figuring out how that happened, the chain of mental lapses I went through to get to the negligent discharge. A string of stupid errors, and I am glad no one was there to see it, or get hurt.

Hopefully, this will make me more mentally sharp.

Brings up the question though, is it wise to use mags with differing numbers of rounds? Not for me. I get zoned out too easily. I have to have a routine I follow. So I think I will make it a strong regular practice to only load seven in all my mags for that gun. Or maybe buy a bunch more eights and retire the sevens.

chestnut ridge
October 6, 2006, 11:26 PM
I managed to discharge a MAS 49/56 while in the living room.
It did make the house smell good for a few days.

CSA 357
October 6, 2006, 11:30 PM
Well no one was hurt, so you learned from it , some times it takes some thing like this to wake you up, i did it many years ago in the house as a kid, it scared the crap out of me! it happens and you learn to be more carefull , just saw on the news where a guy near here shot his self in the leg at his hunting camp, he bled to death before he could get help, so dont be to hard on your self, just be carefull! *csa*:)

October 7, 2006, 01:00 AM
Would it help you to feel better if you took your wonderful wife out for dinner? You are blessed to have her, and perhaps a nice evening out with her would be a good way to show her that and at the same time help you relax and recover.

October 7, 2006, 01:01 AM
Yet another reason to not smoke. Probably distracted you. Smoking is so not tactical.

October 7, 2006, 01:25 AM
It happens to the best of us, lucky you didn't hit anyone. You know the drill for next time.

Andrew Rothman
October 7, 2006, 01:32 AM
Simply, you screwed up, bigtime. You picked up a gun and pulled the trigger.

NDs are not inevitable -- they are 100% preventable.

Don't kick yourself around forever...but a few days would be perfectly appropriate.

October 7, 2006, 01:39 AM
that you did this speaks highly of you for being willing to be so openly honest with so many people. I think you learned a valuable lesson at very, very little cost. Sounds to me like you have a very nice wife also....treat her in a way that such a precious partner deserves.

October 7, 2006, 01:41 AM
Yet another reason to not smoke. Probably distracted you. Smoking is so not tactical.

Tatical is the new "cool". I can see it now "That's a pretty tactical new plasma TV you've got there".

On Topic: Thanks for coming on here and telling hundreds of people about your mistake. Anyone could have swept it under the table and gone on. It takes a big man to not only admit his mistakes, but hold them up for everyone to see and learn from. Thanks.

October 7, 2006, 01:45 AM
It happens to alot of us (

Nobody was hurt, your conscience bothers you about it (good sign!) and you're willing to admit your error.


October 7, 2006, 01:49 AM
Accept the fact that you had a serious mental lapse, that no one was hurt because of it and that you must learn from your mistake. The real problem NOW, going forward, is if you make that same mistake twice! Put it behind you, go to the range and deliberately run through the entire process as you practice.

October 7, 2006, 01:54 AM
Thanks for sharing.
You seem to have the right attitude and mindset about your ND.

It's also a good sobering reminder that it can happen to anyone when they violate the rules, even when they know better.

I'm going to the range tomorrow even a smidge more careful than usual.

October 7, 2006, 01:59 AM
Brings up the question though, is it wise to use mags with differing numbers of rounds?Doesn't matter, it's loaded. It's always loaded, unless the action is locked open.

If you're really focused on shooting, it's can be difficult to keep track of the number of rounds fired. I drop the hammer on an empty chamber in my 10/22 maybe 3 out of 4 times, even when I'm really trying to count my shots. :scrutiny:

Just remember it's loaded, until you've made it safe, and the action is open. :)

October 7, 2006, 02:07 AM
the other rules saved your hide.

saved mine in the past too.

everyone of the post helps remind us all, noobee and deaf vet
that you must never become complacent.

October 7, 2006, 04:12 AM
Some of the most careful gun handlers I know always have a story that begins with...

"There was this one time I thought my gun was unloaded..."

Live and learn.

October 7, 2006, 04:50 AM
when i read the title it took me back to a nd story in Iraq. i was not involved, but got the intel from the medics that got the body. they can be pretty ugly. just be thankfull that yourself or even worse someone you love didn't get hurt. i think you have learned your lesson, and you won't be doing it again. you will probally think about it alot for a while everytime you even see a gun. good luck in the future and be carefull!

October 7, 2006, 09:02 AM
XavierBreath hit the nail on the head, as he often does. One silver lining to this cloud is that now, when it rains, you have a drain hole in your porch.

Ben Shepherd
October 7, 2006, 09:34 AM
This is why MUZZLE CONTROL is written at the top of the board during EVERY hunter education class I teach. And it gets mentioned at the beginning and end of EVERY class session.

If EVERYTHING else goes wrong, as long as the muzzle control issue is handled, all you need is a new pair of shorts.

Admiting your OOPS publicly helped a little right?

I wonder if the fact that this was your 100th post(officialy elevating you to senior member) was a fluke or if fate decided to make you a senior member AND give you gray hair at the same time?:D

October 7, 2006, 09:51 AM
holy cow... I'm a senior member now? Geez, what a way to make it to 100.

But yes, admitting it publicly does help. Everybody needs a little public flogging sometimes.

October 7, 2006, 10:21 AM
"Now I can't even think straight. I can't forgive myself. Normally, I pride myself on being overly careful and cautious. Geez, what a dumb#ss thing to do. Does anybody have any words of wisdom or anything to keep me from wanting to kick my own ass?"

No one was hurt, you learned a hard lesson. You wont do it again. Move on.

October 7, 2006, 11:00 AM
NDs are nature's way of telling you you aren't paying attention.

I've been much more careful since I got that .45 hole in my livingroom wall.

On the plus side, nobody even noticed.

October 7, 2006, 11:23 AM
About a year ago, while shooting a Chinese SKS with a crappy trigger, I sent a round over the hill headed for who knows where. Of course as soon as it happened I knew it was my own stupidity that caused it. ND? It certainly was. I felt sick for days, waiting for the news report of a shooting in my area and wondering who I would have to turn myself in to, to face the music. I thank the Lord of Firearms that the bullet evidently came down in open country. Needless to say, I am fully aware of what a catastrophe I could have caused. Any slight fault now causes instant clearing of whatever piece I happen to be firing at the time and safeties on. I enjoy sleeping well at night.

October 7, 2006, 06:44 PM
Words of wisdom? Don't do it again.

There's a Russian saying, sort of a weird blessing: "May that be the worst thing that ever happens to you."

October 7, 2006, 06:50 PM
I had one some time ago and murdered my neighbors new air conditioner. Besides the "Aw shucks" embarassment factor. The .45 ACP round went through the wall of my house like a hot knife thru butter. All my neighboring houses are built the same way, really gave me pause to think, "What if the muzzle had been pointed a few degrees in a different direction." I could have killed or injured someone several houses away. The $1360.00 for a new air conditioner taught me a good lesson. I have been decidedly more careful ever since. Truth be told, I'd bet that there are a lot of silent members of our "Idjit Club."

October 7, 2006, 07:04 PM
I had my first and only so far only (knock on wood) ND when I was fourteen years old. Learned my lesson well; guess you could say I've got an obsessive/compulsive disorder about checking guns to see if they're loaded.

Yet another reason to not smoke. Probably distracted you. Smoking is so not tactical.
Smoking can have tactical advantages. Face-to-face confrontation; flip lit cigarette into the BG's face, gives you time to back up and draw! :)

October 7, 2006, 09:21 PM
The rules kept you from having a disaster. Very good, you have paid attention and I will bet even more so now. Anyone who hasn't messed up will at some point and hopefully the multi-layer handling mantra will also protect them.

October 7, 2006, 09:43 PM
Smoking can have tactical advantages. Face-to-face confrontation; flip lit cigarette into the BG's face, gives you time to back up and draw!

So instead of a Mozambique drill, what would that be?

A Marlboro Drill!:D I like it!!!

October 7, 2006, 11:18 PM
at one time or another everyone has a slip up. my buddy likes to rib me about mine, and im glad he does. it helps me remember and think about what im doing.

on the other hand, my buddy needs no ribbing about his, as it shook him up bad. i dont think he will ever forget to take care when he is around a gun again.

thats the key. dont forget what happened and you will probably never do it again. leave yourself reminders if needed. keep the casing on a string around your neck. dig the bullet out of the dirt and wear it on a ring. whatever you need to do to never forget.

dont worry too much man, it was a learning experiance. it only cost you a hole in the porch and some pride. you got off cheap and no one got hurt. good deal all around if you ask me.

October 8, 2006, 01:10 AM
Never admitted it to anyone but pulled almost the same stunt 20+ years ago. I have yet to do it again. Sounds as though this will be your one incident, so just let it be a lessoned learned and never forget.

October 8, 2006, 03:22 AM
My brother had a ND a few years back-he was deer hunting and had his Deer Rifle hanging by its sling on his should muzzle straight even with his ear. Well his mechanical Safty broke he didn't know it and the trigger caught a branch and BANG! still only has 20% hearing in that ear now. i was with that day woke up everyone that was there. Its scary when you don't expect that boom. Oh yeah bullet lodged in tree branch over head so that was the better part.

October 8, 2006, 04:03 PM
Fisrt NEGLIGENT discharge huh?

I agree with everyon so far: kick yourself around a few days and then get over it.

October 8, 2006, 04:46 PM
I guess so long as you're aware of your mistake and recall this unpleasantness from time to time to keep you "straight", it actually serves a purpose. It happens often enough to "seasoned" professionals. I've seen it personally, twice, once between my feet from a friend who was very experienced with firearms. Just like car accidents (fault or no fault), in fact, most everyone I know has been in a car accident.

October 8, 2006, 06:48 PM
I had mine 2yrs. ago at my parents house. Dad has a real nice security six that he keeps on top of his dresser, never loaded. I had to find out the hard way he keeps it loaded now. One window, DOA and a hole in the neighbors' yard. I am so dilligent now I will even check the chamber after watching someone else do it in front of me.

October 8, 2006, 06:50 PM
Probably degraded a bit.

I rejoice that no one was hurt.

October 8, 2006, 07:56 PM
And as P95 pointed out early on, that's why there are FOUR rules, so that if by chance or negligence one of the four is violated, the other 3 keep tradgedy at bay.

October 8, 2006, 10:39 PM
Live and learn, hankdatank1362. Thanks for telling your tale of woe.
<raises hand and stands up> I shot my moniter while "dry" firing.
I felt as a fool. Live and learn, eh?

Just a tangental thought ..

Projectiles interfacing with a surface at shallow angles ricochet.
Bullets will ricochet off "soft" stuff to include the earth, standing water, trees, etc.

'Cause knowing is half the battle :p

October 9, 2006, 12:43 PM
Well, here's a twist for you, recently a guy I handed my gun to had one with it. The trigger pull is only 2 lbs so when he cocked it pointing at the ground and then put his finger on the trigger to raise and take aim, off it went. Popped one right into the ground. Neither of us even batted an eye because he had maintained safe muzzle direction so it was really a non issue as far as I was concerned BUT I learned to always tell people about the trigger before I hand any gun to them. I vote for the take the wife to dinner idea. :D

October 9, 2006, 01:20 PM
The trigger pull is only 2 lbs so when he cocked it pointing at the ground and then put his finger on the trigger to raise and take aim, off it went.He violated Rule #3, but Rule #2 saved his butt. Works for me.

October 9, 2006, 02:21 PM
As long as rule No. 2 was observed, I see no biggie either. You remembered to have the gun pointed in a safe did right.

Its when a gun is not pointed in a safe direction, one should be hung by his nads. :D

Go in peace, and sin no more. Your penance is five hail S&W.


October 9, 2006, 02:28 PM
Mine made me a more dedicated safety advocate.

October 9, 2006, 02:37 PM
Its when a gun is not pointed in a safe direction, one should be hung by his nads. provided they haven't been shot off in the process. :p

November 7, 2006, 05:27 PM
A few months ago I was out with my fiancee. We got home, I went to The Safe, and took out my XD-9. I try not to store anything with a spring under compression, sooooo --- seeing that the striker indicator was out, I went to "clear" it. Ahem.

My normal routine with things going IN to the safe and OUT of the safe is the same: check for no mag, point in safe direction, cycle action, visually verify no round present, lower hammer/release striker/de-cock. I've been doing this for a long time. Everything gets checked going in and coming out.

Except for that time.

Put a niner through the floor. (Private home, full cement basement. JHP must have gone vertically down into a stud --- it vanished into the carpet.)

WHERE was my brain that night? Well, since I KNEW that the thing wasn't chambered, the rest of the process leaked out of my head. Oh, yeah --- Rule Number One.

BELIEVE ME --- no matter what you know or what anyone tells you, even if you've just disassembled the thing down to the pins --- it is ALWAYS loaded. Thank the heavens for the rest of the Rules. No one hurt, nothing visibly damaged.

Thirty years of safe handling. And, in a zillionth of a second, that "perfect" record --- pfffft!

On the plus side --- I think I'm sharper now than ever. But it took weeks before I could watch myself shaving again.

Unbelievably, my Incredibly Wonderful Lady came in, asked what happened --- and then crawled around on the floor until she found the case! We talked about the whole thing for days. She said I looked like I'd been convicted of something. And I had. I can think of things that could have made me feel worse --- like slipping up on those Other Rules. Her trust in me hasn't changed. Incredible.

I keep that case on my dresser. I am never going to forget it --- but I've stopped obsessing over it. It just pops into my head every time I handle a firearm --- which is a good thing, I trhink.

I talked with the guys at the range about it. After some yakking, turns out it's fairly hard to find anyone who hasn't done something --- let's call it "vacuum-headed" --- at some time. One guy shot his car once, someone else holed the roof. (That's form two ex-cops, BTW.) And this post might get a lot of "Me? Never's," and that's a good thing.

Deb's OK, your wife's OK, you're OK, I'm OK.

I'd like to think that we're safer now than a lot of folks who've never had the "joy" of getting a warning instead of a ticket ...

Read a story online about a guy who was an instructor, was showing his girlfriend safety procedure, could have SWORN he'd loaded Snap Caps --- then put one through the back wall and into the woods. If you look, you can find the story. It was an individual web upload, not a post. It was a confession. He has a profound appreciation for the "Safe Direction" part, too.

November 7, 2006, 08:02 PM
"So my intention was just to pull the trigger enough to make the hammer move a little and see if there was any trigger creep or anyhting.

Whats next, looking down the barrel so you can see if the cylinder lines up just before the hammer drops? Seriously, that is something "The Three Stooges" would do, this shouldn't be glossed over with a "no ones hurt so no harm no foul" attitude, the other members not the thread starter. Any of you guys want a neighbor that has accidents with a loaded gun?? I sure as hell don't, no excuses, no margin for error, these are weapons, not popguns.

November 7, 2006, 08:56 PM
Remember the rules of gun safety, accidents do happen atleast you did not hurt yourself or someone else or damage anything important. Still not excusable so do not let it happen again. :(

Mr White
November 7, 2006, 09:18 PM
It all boils down to this:
You screwed up big. Not HUGE, but big.
You know you screwed up big.
Everyone here knows you screwed up big.
You were very lucky. Appreciate that.
Learn from your mistake and don't make it again.
Nuff said.

Note to self... if you ever meet hankdatank1362 and he invites you outside for a smoke, politely decline. :D

Stainless Chili
November 8, 2006, 07:12 AM
As noted ..

Was it loud?

Another item that results in the same Bang is grabbing a mag to operations-check a gun you just cleaned/reassembled/whatever, but using a loaded mag by mistake.

I keep loaded mags far, far away from any gun I'm cleaning.

November 8, 2006, 08:21 AM
it can happen to any of us

That statement is just a way of excusing bad choices when handling firearms.

People who make a conscience effort to ignore the safety rules when handling firearms, will have an AD at some time.

Those of us who don't, will never have one unless it relates to a mechanical failure of the firearm its self.

Please don't include me in your reasoning.

November 8, 2006, 10:10 AM
I really appreciate anyone who is willing to share their stories about accidental/negligent discharges.
I know it takes a big person to admit when they have messed up and then to pass it along in order to remind others to not make the same mistakes.
Thus far, I have never had anything like that happen to me. When I read about how easily and quickly it can happen to others I know that I am far from exempt.:D
Thanks again for sharing. Hopefully these type stories will make all of us more contentious.:)

November 8, 2006, 10:45 AM
Brain fart.... Been there, done that.

Back in the early 1970's I had been shooting my SNS Galesi in the back yard and "thought" it was empty.

I walked away with the pistol pointing down by my side and pulled the trigger, "just because" and bored a nice little 25cal. hole in the ground very close to my left little toe...

You just know that would have been painful... Both to my pinkie toe AND my pride..

I try and be smarter now.

IMO if the Good Lord lets'ya get away with one such act of stupidity you should endeavour not to repeat it. :D

Best Wishes from one who's done it too....

J. Pomeroy

November 8, 2006, 10:51 AM
Big difference to me is, if you have a discharge through a handling misshap its bad but a true accident. You cannot compare that to pulling a trigger on a loaded gun to see how the trigger feels, thats irresponsible and no slack should be given. I am 100% with "feedthehogs" please don't include me in the group of "when not if." If you play around with firearms of any kind then its a "when" situation, treat them as the deadly weapons they are and it doesn't happen save for mechanical failures. That includes doing trigger work to lighten a trigger, or speed drawing with a loaded weapon, no accident then, you've removed the safety factor.

November 8, 2006, 11:18 AM
Hey Folks, cut the guy some slack.

"To Err is Human" and all that stuff..

The leo idiot "thought" he was just as "professional" as apparently a couple of you posters do and still he managed to shoot himself in the thigh with his 40cal. Glock in front of a classroom of impressionable children.

People do stupid things sometimes.. With firearms, axes, hammers, pizza's.. You name it, someone has hurt themselves, or others with it..

That's why the word ACCIDENT was invented...

I'll betcha that particular mistake won't be repeated, so it was an accident, hopefully a lesson learned, and let it go at that.

If you THINK you are too "professional", or "train too well" to have an accident or make a mistake you either never heard of "Murphy's Law", or have never driven a motorcycle.

I'm not trying to start a war here, but as long as we are humans, poop happens...

If the originator of the thread comes back next week and says "It happened AGAIN" that's different.

Best Wishes,

J. Pomeroy

November 8, 2006, 01:37 PM
Well then, would you say there is a difference between an accident and a "stupid, needless, careless, no-need-to -have-happened accident?" As in this case. :banghead:

Eleven Mike
November 8, 2006, 01:41 PM
My wife is actually real understanding about all this. I thought this would buy me a one way ticket to no-gunsville, and I even felt like I deserved it. But she's being real supportive. Which is very nice.
She's glad you're alive.

November 8, 2006, 01:56 PM

What I would say is that you and I have a difference of opinion on this issue. I'm way too old to play the pissing contest with you, so I'm sure you'll excuse me if I don't play any more.

Best Wishes,

J. Pomeroy

November 8, 2006, 02:40 PM
The most important thing to remember if you handle guns, handguns...always have it pointed in a safe direction. Never sweep anyones area, or carelessly point it at a living being unless you plan to shoot.

There is no excuse to carelessly point a firearm in someone's direction, be it a person or a dewelling...or, inside your own home. The walls are too thin.

Its also a good idea to keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.

How much trouble is it to open the cylinder, or rack the slide to see if the firearm is empty of loaded rounds. Pulling the trigger to see if its loaded is pretty lame excuse.

Be safe, be sure.


November 8, 2006, 02:45 PM

Please DO NOT answer the following question on the forum, just answer it to yourself:

Was alcohol involved?

The reason for the question, and the reasoning behind not answering publicly should be obvious.:)

November 8, 2006, 04:37 PM
Hey Folks, cut the guy some slack.

Not in a million years.

What he did was a stupid, idiotic thing to do. Why should I cut him slack? After the billions and billions of times firearms safety is posted here, and someone does something this silly, why do you feel they deserve slack?

It's not an accident. Your 4 year old daughter spilling her milk at the dinner table is an accident, being lacksidasical with a lethal weapon, is not.

Nobody will ever get slack from me because they became careless, lazy, and irresponcible with a weapon. They don't deserve it.

November 8, 2006, 05:40 PM
Redemption. Without it mankind fails.

The human is a learning being. He learns from his own mistakes and those of others.

I've had car accidents. Even caused a couple. I learned from them. I didn't kill or cripple anyone, although one of those accidents surely could have done so. I've attended a fatal auto accident, though it's not clear whether the survivor actually learned from it. The driver certainly didn't. But I did.

I've had knife accidents. Never lost any fingers or toes, although one was close.

I've burned myself on stoves and other appliances and an engine or two. No permanent scarring. Lots of respect for hot metal, though.

I've done some stupid stuff that should have cost me an eye. I've still got both of them.

I've done some things that have killed others. Like rock climbing after dark in an unfamiliar canyon. Either God loves me, or I'm one of the luckier S.O.B.s alive.

I've watched others make spectacular mistakes. I've learned from those, and occasionally so have they.

I have learned that it is foolish to declare that it's just not possible that one will ever make such-and-such a mistake.

Most of my mistakes have been fairly low-cost: no injuries (or minor ones), and occasional property damage.

What I've learned from this rather checkered history of mistakes -- both mine and others -- has literally kept me alive due to Condition Yellow responsiveness.

My wife, on the other hand, has never had an traffic accident or a ticket. She insists I do the driving on long trips and in any iffy situations. Why? I asked her. She says I'm more alert to danger and impending accidents than she is, and I keep my cool under stress. I got that way by living through more mistakes.

I have my rituals regarding cars and trucks, and these rituals have kept me from needing to change tires in the rain, have tow trucks retrieve me from strange places, or paying outrageous repair fees in remote towns. They've also kept me from being stranded in hostile/uninhabited terrain. And driving over the neighbor's kids. And so on.

So far, all my firearms mistakes have been supervised and attended by further instruction. No loud bangs. No damage. Just learning experiences. I've adopted a ritual similar to those used by many of you. Once I learned the Four Commandments, I modified my rituals accordingly.

I've had more than my share of redemption.

Guilt doesn't make you more competent. Neither does chronic worry. Guilt and worry can, however, distract you enough to make MORE mistakes.

Learn the lesson offered by the event. Park the guilt and worry.

Help others learn, so that the benefit is shared.

Know that you can do it right in the future.

You'll find your redemption.

November 8, 2006, 07:12 PM
The human is a learning being

Your right.
A human should learn ahead of time how to do things the correct way and realize that when you choose to ignore what you know to be true, you will have consequences.

Stumbling thru life only learning from mistakes is a miserable way to live and wearing your accidents as a badge of honor gets you first place in the Darwin awards.

I employee 12 people.
A so called accident only happens when those twelve choose to ignore the rules or common sense such as:

1. Running into the building with a forklift cause you chose to operate it without a spotter.
2. Ripped your hand to shreds cause you chose to drill something in the press while holding it in your hand instead of a vise.
3. Set your clothes on fire cause you spilled acetone then chose to lite a cigarette.
4. Dropped a $425,000.00 boat from 5 stories up cause you chose to operate the forklift you were not checked out on because you wanted to help.

I could go on for hours but the point is that everytime someone chose to ignore the rules, thats when the "accident" excuse was used.

Handling firearms is serious business. If you can't follow the rules, give your guns away before someone gets killed.

November 8, 2006, 08:31 PM
I had one once. 5 years ago maybe. At the range.

I had been firing my varmint AR, had a 10 round magazine in the rifle. Something messed up, I forget what, so I stopped shooting, did not clear the rifle, and started fiddling around with whatever it was. My finger on my left hand found the trigger while I was holding onto the rifle and fiddling with it with my right hand.

The rifle was always facing down range on the bipod, but I felt extraordinarily stupid for quite a while after that.

November 8, 2006, 08:35 PM
Lest my position be misinterpreted . . .

I do not advocate carelessness.
I do not advocate clumsiness.
I do not advocate irresponsibility.

I have good, if not excellent, reflexes; have better than average powers of observation; have a well-developed sense of self preservation; have a decent IQ; have better than average reasoning powers; have lived long enough to grip life's realities reasonably well.

And I am STILL NOT IMMUNE from mistakes or accidents.

I understand that some people equate ACCIDENT = IRRESPONSIBLE.
I understand that some people equate MISTAKE = STUPID.

I work with some people like that. When you catch them in a mistake (these are engineers) they snap into denial -- sometimes belligerently. They cannot deal with "fault" gracefully. And they certainly can't just allow someone to learn from a mistake: they gotta turn it into a grudge, constantly inflicting it on the guy.

In my line of work, a mistake can cost the company a six-figure or seven-figure sum. They still happen. Firing first offenders has been tried. It's more expensive than ensuring that the transgressor LEARNS from it and banks the wisdom. We've got guys who have made million-dollar errors. Keeping them has allowed them to make million-dollar advances in our technolgies. On balance, the older, wiser, battle-scarred veterans have more value, and are able to gently guide the noobs through the shoals. I've been the noob. Now I'm one of the old guys. My boss led me gently through two years of sand bars and corral reefs. My errors have been less costly because I've been allowed to learn from some of his blunders.

We have procedures that confine most of the mistakes to a sort of isolated "sandbox" -- kind of like doing surgery on cadavers rather than live patients -- so that, like surgeons, by the time it really counts, all the uncertainty and doubt has been removed.

For some specialized things, we even do extensive, repetitious dummy runs. And we do it until we can do it right repeatedly. This "drill until flawless" routine has rescued our butts more than once.

"Stuff" still happens. "Stuff" happens to surgeons, too.

Guilt NEVER helps. Neither do worry & anxiety.

If you CAN'T learn from it, you're done. If you CAN'T move on, taking the wisdom with you, you're done.

We expect you to learn. We expect you to bank the wisdom.

And we expect that, in the future, you'll do it right.

November 8, 2006, 09:19 PM
Tripping and falling so your gun goes off is an accident, checking trigger creep on a KNOWN loaded weapon is INSANE. There is a difference, its not OK, its not something that should ever happen, and as others have said, if you can't be safe with your weapon you shouldn't have one, period.

November 8, 2006, 09:26 PM
Don't beat yourself to death! Do something about it.

In 1979 I shot out the window of a brand new pickup with a Ruger Mk 1, while going down the road at 65 mph. Stupid, Stupid, Stupid!
I felt like i should just sell my guns and quit. But, I got some good training, and more good training, and never ever forgot how easily I could have killed someone. I think of that incident everytime I pick up a firearm. I tell every new shooter that story, and then teach them the correct way to handle firearms.

I guess this is my way to atone for my careless act. If i can pass proper firearms handling along to newcomers, maybe I can save someone from feeling the way i did, or worse.

Anyway, my .02 worth. There isn't any excuse for being careless, but after it's over...Now What Are You Going To Do About It?

Ron James
November 8, 2006, 09:35 PM
Mistakes happen, I did the same thing you did, stupid yes. This why I don't like cocked and locked. Sooner or later a UD will happen, why make it easy. This has happened to the best and most experience people. I'm not trying to flame or start a rant but if anyone states that they are too carefull to ever have it happen are just deluting themself. It will happen, sooner or later. I have personly seen a highly trained and experience 1911 user clear his gun forgeting to drop the mag, chamber a round , and then pull the trigger to drop the hammer. After he stoped shaking, I thought he was going to cry( he didn't but his head was hanging low). Remember The only perfect man was JC and they hung him on a cross, so yes it can. will and does happen.

November 8, 2006, 10:13 PM
Funny but the only ones who say that are ones that did it.......

Ron James
November 8, 2006, 10:22 PM
Yes PythonGuy, and I know it will never, never happen to you. Perhaps when you've had 50 years of firearm experience and you've never had a U/D I will then pat you on the back. Good luck and shoot safe.

November 8, 2006, 10:39 PM
I had a near AD not too long ago and I'm hesitant to even post it.

Not really close to an AD, but somehow I swept the safety off my .45 while holstering or unholstering. At least, that's what I think happened, I can't imagine taking it off safe any other time. I took it off at home and went through the routine of pointing it at the floor in the laundry room, dropped mage,unsafe and dropped mag and *crap* it was already off safe. Nobody was in any danger but it scared me a tad... I know better... I vaguely remember messing with the position of my holster and I think I may have swept it off by some massive brain fart.

I'm on time-out right now... I'm still packing, and luckily I follow the 4 rules but it was a nice wake up... I try not to worry about AD's.. it's much easier to just think "4 rules, 4 rules" while handling firearms than worrying about "No, AD's, No AD's.".... I'm knocking on wood like mad god knows bad luck hits everyone eventually but geesh... I wish to God I was perfect. As long as I never point the darn thing at anyone I should be ok even if lightning strikes. I would like to be the perfect guy who chides everyone with an AD or ND for not following the rules, but on the other hand, you're still running the risk of getting T-Boned by somone for that .10 second you turn on the yellow arrow while some doofus hauls butt in his crappy Honda trying to get the jump on a crappy Toyota in the other direction. Moral of the story... #### happens... as long as it doesn't happen to you it's all good!

November 9, 2006, 06:10 AM
I find the safety swept off on my Kimber quite frequently.....your still perfectly safe if the gun is in a proper holster covering the trigger and you dont put your finger on the trigger.

November 9, 2006, 08:30 AM
but if anyone states that they are too carefull to ever have it happen are just deluting themself. It will happen, sooner or later.

Your wrong period. Been handling firearms for 45 years. Know lots of folks who have the same or more time handling guns. None of them never had AD's.

None of us are perfect or claim to be. But if the definition of being perfect is following safe gun handling 100% of the time, then I'm guilty.
That's it. It's really that simple.

Other people's ad's never used to bother me but it seems to happen more often, they are taken too lightly, I or someone I know could be the victim of an AD from someone else and what really torques me is the growing trend of "it can happen to anyone".

Being a highly trained or experienced gun handler means absolutely nothing if you ignore the safety rules.

This ain't brain surgery folks. But it sure is treated as such it seems.

November 9, 2006, 09:18 AM
I'll respond to SixForSure's question, no, alcohol was not involved. However STUPIDITY was running rampant in the Negligent discharge I described. I don't think there is such a thing as an accidental discharge.

November 9, 2006, 09:25 AM
We learn by doing it WRONG, not by doing it right.
Lesson Learned.


November 9, 2006, 05:57 PM
We learn by doing it WRONG, not by doing it right.

So does that mean a pilot can't learn to fly a plane correctly unless he crashes it first?

I guess when I learned to fly, I just shoulda stole a plane and figured it out after crashin a time or two.
Shame I wasted all that time and money with an instructor.
What was I thinkin?

Learn to do things the right way first. Its possible you know.

There are such things as schools, teachers, instructors, trainers and such.

No really, there are.

November 9, 2006, 06:16 PM
Where's the "smilie" for "beating a dead horse" when ya need it?

It seems roughly 8 out of 10 who responded to this thread understand that humans make mistakes..

The other two disagree..

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, we've all expressed ours, so we should probably just let this issue die of it's own weight..

Anyone need rental property?


Best Wishes,

J. Pomeroy

November 10, 2006, 12:10 AM
Yeah, I appreciate all your guy's concern and all (even you guys who have never had a ND or a car wreck or skidmarks in your underwear)...

but this is major PITW. I shot a hole in my porch. I wasn't drunk. Just stupid. I thought this thread died a long time ago...

November 10, 2006, 05:36 AM
Where's the "smilie" for "beating a dead horse" when ya need it?

Yea, your right.

Gun safety discussions around here are like beating a dead horse.
Or is that accidently shooting a dead horse?

November 10, 2006, 06:45 AM
Yep, This 'un's done.

Be safe folks.

If you would like to start a new, general thread about gun safety concepts, feel free.

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