THIS JUST HAPPENED - analysis, advice?


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DFW1911
October 7, 2006, 03:31 AM
Wow.

It does happen fast. Forgive my grammar or typos...I'm hyped. I'm sitting here checking the forum taking a break from my writing, listening to J. Cash, when I hear it: a 9mm report.

Here's what I do:

I can't tell if the shot came from the front or back of the house.

I inform my SO to get her SP101 and keep the dogs w/ her.

For some reason - probably military training - I grab the Armalite which has the Surefires, etc, and leave the Glock. This is surprising to me, since I thought the Glock was my right hand.

I use light and sound to my advantage: look, listen and wait. It's tough, but it works. I make my way outside, both front and back, and assume that horrible "ambush" posture; fortunately nothing materializes.

My neighbor across the way is out, he's heard the same, and together we wait. Again, nothing. He, too, is armed.

We meet and share our mutual respect. He's called the cops.

I'm going to drink the finest Whisky (probably a Spring Bank) and let my nerves settle.

Wow.

DFW1911

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calzoom
October 7, 2006, 03:37 AM
Reading your post and viewing your location. I'd put up the guns, go to bed and get some rest.:uhoh:

gunsmith
October 7, 2006, 04:09 AM
on grabbing a rifle, much better then a handgun in a firefight.

Nyet on going out doors if you dont have to, thats why cops get the big bucks and such.

Unless you had family or close out side to protect it's better to wait inside.

wouldn't this be better in strat and tat?

Skywarp
October 7, 2006, 04:16 AM
Sounds like a good plan to me.


Except the outside thing to me personally (totally untrained) you have an advantage in your house as you know the layout and control points. Outside there are way too many place to hide, behind cars, under cars, trees, sides of houses, shadows, in cars, behind your neighbor.

Aside from that you heard a 9mm report. I know its possible to identify reports, I work in arange and have gotten pretty good at ID'ing the various sounds but at an outside range I dont do as well but you can still tell a 9mm inside the house from one outside the house. Youre inside, they are at the point of firing outside, if you havent heardthem come in since the shot odds are they are still out there let the Spec Ops Militarized cops handle it. Your job is to ckeep them outside of your castle.

Did you check for signs of life on the neighbor before approaching him? Zombies are known to use bait to lure meals outside.

PlayboyPenguin
October 7, 2006, 04:26 AM
Sounds like a time to call the cops and stay indoors. If someone was trying to enter your home they would not have purposely discharged a weapon and if they discharged it by accident they would most likely flee. Get your gun and your dogs and sit and wait for the police in a part of the home where you are not an easy target. It may have just been a car backfiring.

mete
October 7, 2006, 08:08 AM
" make my way outside " ? That's leaving a defensible home and going to a dangerous location. Let the dogs roam the house to act as first warning and first defense if BGs enter !

Delta608
October 7, 2006, 08:27 AM
Not sure why you call the cops then run outside armed....Stay inside..IMO:D

Biker
October 7, 2006, 08:27 AM
How did you know that it was a 9mm you heard?

Biker

Chipperman
October 7, 2006, 08:57 AM
I thought the Glock was my right hand

That's if you don't have access to a long gun. You were wise to grab the AR over the Glock. Going outside, not so wise. You esposed yourself to risk both from a possible perp and from the Po-Po.

Think about it. Your neighbor just called the cops about a gunshot. They roll up to see you crouching outside your door holding a rifle. That could get messy really quickly.

Nicolai
October 7, 2006, 09:05 AM
Happened a few nights ago here. Couldn't ID the sounds, so stayed inside. Neighbor called a few minutes later and told us he had put eight rounds of .22LR into a rattler on his patio (in clear defiance of our HOA ban on shooting/hunting).
Think I agree with a lot of the threads--if you hear something suspicious, gather family members, grab guns, lights, and cell phones and stay where you can defend your family and yourself.

DFW1911
October 7, 2006, 11:51 AM
Well, it was a 9mm. We - Marc and I - found a casing by a grove of trees behind Marc's house. That spot is kind of a teen hangout, so our guess is someone brought Daddy's gun and popped one. I'm sure it was a dare...or the dreaded "triple dog dare", and I think most of us know how that ends up.

How'd I know it was a 9mm? I didn't. It sounded like one, so it was my best guess. This time I was right, but I'll be wrong again.

Yes: in the house, outside of the house, contact w/ my neighbor. First, we did establish contact prior to me leaving the house.

Leaving the house. Here's my $.02: a person reacts to a situation. The reaction is based on training and real-life experiences and the context of the situation. We respond according to our level of training, our experiences, the situation as we understand it and intell we have on hand (been there :banghead: ) and our abilities.

The aforementioned "mix" of details makes one act. As far as last night, this is hard to explain, I just "knew" the best defense was a good offense, which is probably why I ignored my Glock and got the AR. It's also why I went outside. Also, please don't think I was running around the neighborhood screaming "take cover!!!...it's happening!!!" - I waited. I listened. I looked. I moved carefully and responded as needed. That's what we do.

Upon reflection, though, I was kind of on something like an "autopilot" state, but completely in the here-and-now, if that makes any sense. It's hard to explain. I think experience and training took over.

The good news is that everything turned out a-okay. Marc and I worked well w/ very little communication. My senses are - maybe - nearly as good as they were in the day :)

Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions.

Take care and be safe,
DFW1911

BTW: The Spring Bank 100 Proof is fantastic. Just use if AFTER the event, not BEFORE, as its consumption might hinder your thoughts a bit :D

oldfart
October 7, 2006, 01:41 PM
I live in an area of town where gunshots are heard fairly regularly. Normally they originate a block or two away and I just keep an eye on what might happen in that area but occasionally it gets closer. Here's what I do.
First, I kill all the lights inside the house, including the TV. Then I get a gun and start looking out windows to see what I can. I rarely call the police since they won't get here in time to do any good anyhow and I'll have to spend more time talking to tham than it's worth.
What I don't do is go outside without a very good reason. If I were to see somebody breaking into my garage I might go out the door farthest from the garage and circle around to challenge them. If I did go out, I'd have the wife lock the door behind me and keep watching until she needed to call 911 for help, and I hope I've impressed her with a healthy fear of calling the authorities (our cops tend to kill people and they're not too discriminating either, they occasionally get a witness rather than a perp.)
So far, I've only had to go outside once and that time it was a family friend trying to find a place out of the rain to sleep off a drunk. He sobered up fast when he saw the shotgun.

MaceWindu
October 7, 2006, 02:12 PM
Leaving the house. Here's my $.02: a person reacts to a situation. The reaction is based on training and real-life experiences and the context of the situation.

Leaving the house

You should NEVER leave cover and concealment when there is a possible hostile in the area. This is not a knock, just a tactical fact. You already KNOW he is armed based on the fact that you heard the report of the round fired.

The reaction is based on training

Train more.

Mace

Lupinus
October 7, 2006, 02:25 PM
Sounds good accept the going outside part. I have heard the same in my neighborhood, the one neighbor is one of those women who enjoys nothing more then baiting a guy into getting pissed off, the guy likes to carry a gun in his pocket apparently and on one occasion has fired a shot off into the air or the ground. Going outside in such a situation is bad juju and unless I hear her screaming bloody murder cause he is beating her withen an inch of her life or actually shooting her my butt is staying right where it is or moving behind more cover.

Get long gun, move to different part of the house if need be, I have two of those nosey neighbors who call the cops if the wind blows wrong and they don't seem to miss much since the cops end up there everytime she baits him into a fight so that base is covered by someone else.

On the long gun vs handgun if you can go with the long arm do so, there is a reason my long guns are considered primary weapons and handguns side arms. Unless you are using something along the lines of a .22 most rifles are going to give you more power then even well respected man stoppers like the .45. More power, better accuracy, more range, and if you have a carbine that is either semi auto or a fast to work action like a lever is plenty fast enough.

DFW1911
October 7, 2006, 05:47 PM
All,

Thanks for the feedback and advice - much appreciated.

You should NEVER leave cover and concealment when there is a possible hostile in the area. This is not a knock, just a tactical fact. You already KNOW he is armed based on the fact that you heard the report of the round fired.

:scrutiny:

Umm...cover and concealment are everywhere, not just in the house. Learning how to use them effectively is important if you ever have to go outside.

They teach this stuff in training :D

Take care,
DFW1911

BlkHawk73
October 7, 2006, 06:18 PM
Regardless of anything else, no way I'm leaving the house whcih has my family inside. I'm with those thinking staying inside and controling the personal space of your home is priority. I don't see going looking for trouble as the best and safest idea by any means.

Jim K
October 7, 2006, 07:13 PM
If I called the cops, grabbed a gun and ran outside to play war everytime I heard a shot, I would look pretty silly. Folks shoot around here all the time and a lot in hunting season. And I live in MD, not Texas.

Jim

MaceWindu
October 7, 2006, 07:32 PM
I use light and sound to my advantage: look, listen and wait. It's tough, but it works. I make my way outside, both front and back, and assume that horrible "ambush" posture; fortunately nothing materializes.


I can see here where you "made your way outside", gee you must have cover and concealment all around your house or wear it on your back.

You don't want scrutiny, don't put material like this on the internet where everyone can read it.

Don't ask for: "analysis, advice?" :scrutiny:

Mace

DRMMR02
October 7, 2006, 07:39 PM
thats why cops get the big bucks and such.



HAHAHAHAHAHA



:(

DFW1911
October 7, 2006, 08:39 PM
If I called the cops, grabbed a gun and ran outside to play war everytime I heard a shot, I would look pretty silly.

ROTFL...brilliant!

I can see here where you "made your way outside", gee you must have cover and concealment all around your house or wear it on your back.


It was part of my Jedi training :neener:

Take Care,
DFW1911

MaceWindu
October 8, 2006, 01:21 AM
analysis, advice

Ya screwed da pooch...:D

MW

Raph84
October 8, 2006, 02:12 AM
Did everyone who posts get up on the wrong side of the bed today? This is like the fourth thread today that has devolved to "you is a stupid dumb head"

How about a bit more constructive criticism than "screwed the pooch":banghead:

strambo
October 8, 2006, 03:21 AM
Well, I aggree mostly with the stay inside part...but as a counter point what is a Neighborhood Watch and what should they do? When do you decide to take the next step and go from protecting just your home, to helping protect the neighborhood?

The perp in this case saw (If they stayed to look) a coordinated, armed investigation. This street will not be victimized easily. Folks look out for each other instead of staying inside waiting for harm to come to them.

Yes, there is an increased risk to your family (slight if they are armed, trained)and a potential of problems with the police. On the other hand, in the long run, the risk to your family is less by living in such a protective neighborhood (what if you aren't home, but your neighbor is?) Since you called, and expect the police, that can be handled. Just go in or put the gun out of sight when they arrive. If you are using cover, they won't instantly see you. The answer to risk is to manage it, not bail on a course of action because of it. Unless said risk cannot be managed effectively enough to offset the potential gain. This is a process though, not just ID the risk and bail without thinking of mitigating strategies.

I think the idea of more proactive (Term used very loosly...not talking regular armed patrols) neighborhood protection is good. Need ideas on how to safely impliment this to keep the BGs out and everyone safe. If successful, police friendly fire won't be possible...because they won't need to be called to your safe neighborhood. Off hand, informal walks with good neighbors through the neighborhood (CCW if armed, definitely cell phone), cameras in problem locations, informal phone tree of trusted, willing neighbors who can help in an emergeny. The emergency doesn't have to be crime, it can be helping the old lady down the street in a power outage, or keeping tabs on somebody with an abusive ex. Id-ing safe houses (the willing, competent neighbors) where poeple know they can go to for med attention or to get help.

Just food for thought, I don't have a real personal opinion yet, just leaning towards proactive...I bought a house that I've only lived in for 10 days in 7 months, so I don't have neighborhood protection experience to draw from.

DFW1911
October 8, 2006, 03:27 AM
Yep, things seem to have gotten to a personal sort of level, too bad. Though I'm new here, it does seem that the some Senior members forget this is The High Road and pay no attention to the rules.

For example:

Ya screwed da pooch...:D

MW

Wow. Pretty low, especially for a Jedi...or a least someone who pretends to be a Jedi...which is a fictional character:uhoh:

I'm sure Master Yoda or Mods will lock this one down, it does seem to have gotten a bit out of hand.

strambo
October 8, 2006, 03:39 AM
DFW, I think going outside was fine in and of itself. Think about the risks you incurred by doing so vs the potential reward. Now develop strategies to minimize those risks while magnifying the rewards. Conduct an After Action Review.

Example: Sustain:

1) Coordination with neighbor. Will help reduce friendly fire between you.
2) Armed wife and gave instructions
3) Id'ed who was going to call police

Needs Improvement:

1) Risk to family by leaving them. Posible Fix: get spouse and kids more training for emergency situations.

2) Risk of going out into unknown situation from known environment. Possible Fix: Better lighting, cameras, communication with neighbor on what they see. Pre-ID good areas of cover and concealment for future use.

3) Fratricide risk from police: Possible Fix: good communication with dispatch. Id areas where you can observe without being highly visible to police, or area where you are extremely visible and obviously not a perp. Also, think hard about weapons choice while outside adn what will look suspicious. Consider a concealed pistol instead of rifle to avoid fratricide.

That's just a quick, off the top of my head, example of the process.

Vairochana
October 8, 2006, 03:49 AM
I agree with the comment about reacting with your training.
I have reacted to noises a few times at night, I keep a shotgun handy and have carried this to check the house/yard etc: however on the few times where I have been serious (ie very sure there was a threat) I picked up either a knife of a sword.
I have done a lot of sword training and feel very comfortable with one, and I have used one in a SD situation.
I should add though that where I live there is a very small chance of someone breaking in with a firearm and if I go outside I send my mastiff and bull terrier out first ( I have trained them to search the yard).
We also hear gunshots fairly often but these are usually from the properties down the track and the targets are most likely foxes.

Diamondback6
October 8, 2006, 04:21 AM
+1 to Strambo's commentary. Good call arming up the SO and grabbing the rifle, not-so-good leaving the residence and not having good comms.

Small suggestion next time: get yours into an interior room with only one entry/exit, let the dogs prowl inside the house, wait for BGs if any to come to you, or the dogs to have 'em pinned down.

On the whole, a little fine-tuning would help, but you've got a good foundation and the wisdom to learn from errors before they become permanent mistakes.

DFW1911, keep that head up, and don't let 'em get to ya. Just keep on keepin' on...

To the rest of us, how 'bout confining it to after-action analysis like "what was right or wrong, and why", not lobbing invective at the OP. This IS the High Road, after all...

plexreticle
October 8, 2006, 04:30 AM
You grabbed the right gun. Handguns are for when you don't have a long gun.

strambo
October 8, 2006, 05:04 AM
Just keep on keepin' on...Heh, reminds me of "Frank the Tank" in "Old School" when his wife says she wants a divorce. "You...just keep on truckin'!" :D ;)

And...on topic; How to meet and approach and identify potential squared away neighbors for the high-speed (more than just a sign) neighborhood watch program? How do you start it? Ideas?...I guess I'll start with the local police and what they recommend and go from there.

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