What Gun for School Defense?


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Hypnogator
October 9, 2006, 12:34 AM
OK, your local school board has voted (with state blessings) to acquire a limited number of firearms for school defense against terrorists/active shooters. Teachers will not be permitted to carry concealed weapons due to security concerns, but a firearm or firearms will be secured in locked containers at several locations in the school with specially trained teachers/administrators carrying keys.

Because you are a firearms expert, the board has come to you for advice on what kind of firearms to obtain.

Special considerations: The most feasible scenarios would consist of shots made from 15 - 50' inside classrooms or hallways, but shots could conceivably be required as far as 100 yds on the athletic field.

Which of the above firearms would you recommend? Why? What caliber? What action type?

Enjoy!

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yongxingfreesty
October 9, 2006, 12:38 AM
anything is better than nothing

Geronimo45
October 9, 2006, 12:43 AM
AR 15? Evil black assault rifle. I'd go with a Mini-14, with a red-dot or a scope mounted on him. Wooden rifles don't look so evil to the great unwashed. Ruger would be forced to give high-cap mags.
Handguns - .38 specials - S&W or Ruger, no preference. For autoloaders... again, I'd love to see a Five-Seven, but they're awfully pricey. Probably something along the lines of a CZ 75 SP-01 - accepts lasergrips, tac. light.

If you wanted to go really cheap, Mosin-Nagant rifles cut to carbine length, Makarovs, Nagant revolvers, and CZ 52s.

xd9fan
October 9, 2006, 12:44 AM
whatever the general public is wearing in their day to day life. Just let CCW holders take their kids to school and carry on the grounds.

wow can america overthink an issue......

Euclidean
October 9, 2006, 01:04 AM
Interesting scenario. Not the model I'd prefer but interesting scenario nonetheless.

A strong possibility is Remington 870s. See, any gun that would be used in this way would be everybody's gun and nobody's gun, meaning it would get used by people who didn't particularly care about meticulously maintaining it, so we need to get a specimen that would be an effective firearm, but one that will run when quite dirty and neglected. The police have used them for many years this way.

Anything that would make a reasonable service weapon for a patrol officer would suffice though, because while it wouldn't be used for police work, it would be just as neglected. Whatever it is should have good armorer support too, and keep in mind once it's bought it MIGHT be replaced in 20 years if you're lucky.

But realistically it probably would be a pump shotgun, because they are the cheapest thing that meets service criteria. That's the real reason police had them for so many years. Schools would have whatever they could get the cheapest. I personally would purchase one of my own and practice with it constantly.

Now if I really could pick and the district wasn't half assing it, it'd be some AR15 variant fitted with a tactical light, laser sight, single point sling, and an Eotech with BUIS. It's what I know, and probably the best for the job, with some frangible rounds.

RNB65
October 9, 2006, 01:08 AM
AR15 carbine (16") with a Trijicon Reflex red dot sight. Easy to learn and easy to handle.

plexreticle
October 9, 2006, 01:09 AM
MP5/40

Euclidean
October 9, 2006, 01:18 AM
Anything select fire would not fly.

Okay first of all this model will never happen. The district's lawyers wouldn't let it.

Second of all if it did I can promise you that every concern that LE agencies have with regards to liability, the school would have. That means heavy triggers and semiautomatic or manual actions only.

Third, the odds are pretty good the only persons with the key would be the principal who would be off campus 75% of the time, and the vice principal who would be gone on those occassions the principal was present, and they would both have to use their keys together and enter a 16 digit PIN number and call the police, the school board, and the parents of all 700 children first to get permission.

Fourth, assuming we overcome that problem, a more logical assumption would be you'd have to pass some kind of qualifier to have a key. Seems logical enough. As someone who'd be interested, the only service firearms I have experience with are the neutered civilian versions of real weapons. I can't buy a full auto version to practice or train with, and I'd have no access to even be trained with a select fire weapon, because I'm not LE or military, no one would even consider training me for any amount of money.

This is a fun mental excercise.

SAG0282
October 9, 2006, 01:40 AM
Lots to keep in mind.....like it or not the idea of conspicuoulsly armed LEOs w/ "evil blackness" on hand is pretty unlikely.

GW/LE ran a thing on SROs a few years back that discussed the G34/G35 (GLOCK) concept with rigorous training for scenarios unique to being an SRO, and I have always liked this concept. The G34/G35s are concealable, as rugged as a Stryker, and in the right hands devastatingly accurate even out to fairly long-distances.

Zen21Tao
October 9, 2006, 08:17 AM
An M4 AR15 model is the ideal choice. A rifle or shotgun is almost always a better choice than a handgun. It have a more effective range, is more stable and is more accurate (considering the average firearm user as a base line). Under such conditions I feel a shotgun would not be a good choice do to over penetration and/or too side of a firing pattern. The .223 round is small enough to limit over penetration (such as through walls and doors) but still has the effective range of a rifle.

Another option could be an M4 AR15 platform in a 9mm carbine.

mp510
October 9, 2006, 09:56 AM
Let's see, shooting is going to be very close quarters, probably across a room, or down the hall.

A rifle would be inappropriate, you don't need the range one gives, even if that weapon is chambered for an intermediate round. Why go with a handgun if concealability is not necesary, and a .22 doesn't offer a stopping power guarantee. Full auto would be unpractical, and could end up with more colateral damage, which is NOT acceptable.

I would go shotgun. A Mossberg 500 or Remington 870, with Buckshot and slug options would be effective given the range, reliable, robust, easy to train people on, and cost effective- and money is a big deal for schools.

OpFlash
October 9, 2006, 10:20 AM
It would be a close in indoors engagement, I don't see trading shots at 100yds across the athletic field. However in an environment with such a huge chance for collateral damage to innocents you want high accuracy coupled with quick pointing/handling, and I think a AR15 carbine (M4) is just the ticket for that kind of scenario. Doomsday serial killers can well be using body armor as well so you want a rifle caliber, not a pistol, pistol carbine, or buckshot. The 5.56 is a good choice because it won't penetrate more than a pistol bullet through walls like a larger caliber rifle or shotgun slug but will penetrate most body armor.

Sheldon J
October 9, 2006, 10:47 AM
Don't know who voted for the shotgun but way too much collateral damage there unless you are using slugs or one of the bean bag rounds, but then if the BG were to wear a vest, you whack them with a 12 ga 3" mag slug it would break ribs and likely stop their heart.

Riffle nope too close of an engagement range here even for a tactical gun it would be tricky unless you are very well trained at say "Gun site"

Pistol, wheel gun or semi, but not a 9, most encounters would be in the 25-30' range and if after burning them in the vest does not get their attention then while they are off balance a head shot at that range would do it.

All encounters that I have read about WRT school's and Kids with guns seeking to do harm, and a adult with a gun intervened the kid turned to jelly when confronted with deadly force, so just a show of my be enough. As to the determined deviant... N how do you decide, every scenario would be different

I know this is cold but the facts and this discussion could save a life.

Euclidean
October 9, 2006, 10:57 AM
Here's something I think really needs to be pointed out here: Why is everyone ruling out long guns based on short range?

At any range, long or short, I shoot a long gun better than a handgun. I shoot it more accurately and more quickly. Long guns offer superior caliber choices and overall superior capabilities.

If the idea is there's a lock box on the wall with the emergency gun in it, it darn well better be something with some punch. We want this situation to end quickly and with as few shots as possible fired.

geekWithA.45
October 9, 2006, 11:04 AM
Intermediate carbine w/ choice of frangibles or hard ammo.

High Planes Drifter
October 9, 2006, 12:58 PM
Autoloading pistol. Something teachers can wear on them while conducting class; and conceal.

ronto
October 9, 2006, 03:11 PM
So simple even a teacher who probably doesn't like guns anyway can understand how to operate it, plus little chance of malfunction caused by the operator
or the firearm.
Spraying the place with 00 buck or automatic pistol or rifle fire would only endanger innocent bystanders.

BigO01
October 9, 2006, 03:42 PM
In a school setting with a bunch of left leaning teachers with next to no training I would go with Marlin lever guns and matching revolvers in .357 magnum .

Most people have seen more than a few Westerns and old cop shows and can figure out how to load a lever gun and a revolver .

The .357 is an effective caliber even out of a 4 inch barreled pistol with 125 gr JHP's for short to medium range a 16-20 inch rifle barrel easily extends this to 100-150 yards against humans , which I think is the max we could even begin to hope that a teacher would engage an invading force .

Oleg Volk
October 9, 2006, 03:49 PM
Untrained person cannot operate a lever action effectively, nor shoot a revolver well or reload it.

Pick something cheap and reliable and insist on training in shooting AND TARGET ID. The likelihood of the perp being visually similar to others in the building would be very high.

gego
October 9, 2006, 03:50 PM
This has already been thought out somewhat, so whatever a SWAT team would use in a similar situation seems most appropriate.

MD_Willington
October 9, 2006, 03:53 PM
Shotgun, as most people in the town I live in are quite familiar with them...

atk
October 9, 2006, 03:56 PM
There doesn't seem to be much comment about penetrating walls, so far, so I'll just mention it: Whatever firearm is chosen, it better not be capable of penetrating any walls - or even doors - between classrooms. There's way too many non-combatants in the area, and over-penetration is a MASSIVE concern, here. In fact, some schools have multiple floors, so it shouldn't be able to penetrate floors/ceilings, either.

It should be something that's on the person of the teacher at all times. Long guns are too easy to put down, and would probably get in the way of teaching if they were strapped to the teacher's body. And how does one cover the trigger of a long gun? I've never seen a holster big enough... With hand guns, at least you can put those into a concealment or retention holster, so the kids can't just reach up and pull the trigger.

If a long gun, is needed, several could be kept around the school, in safes, with teachers having the key(s), for those unusual cases where the long gun is really what's necessary.

As for training, if the school is going to implement a "bring a gun to school" policy, they can provide training to use firearms, so the revolver vs. semi debate can be resolved through training.

crunker
October 9, 2006, 04:31 PM
Striker-12 or Protecta shotgun, you don't have to worry about it failing to load since it's not an autoloader or semiautomatic.
That, and an AR-15 pistol. You're ready for when SHTF.

Justin
October 9, 2006, 05:18 PM
Yeah, because there's nothing quite like firing a rifle cartridge out of a pistol-length barrel inside a room.

AJ Dual
October 9, 2006, 05:52 PM
I voted for the M1 carbine, because that's the closest to what I would pick in this rather artificial scenario. i.e. Arms locked in "go to" boxes or cabinets.

Within the confines of the exercise, I would go with a semi-automatic pistol caliber carbine that had the best ergonomics and the simplest manual of arms possible. Something like a Beretta CX4 Storm or even the Hi-Point. Leave it "cruiser ready", safety off, chamber empty. Cock and shoot.

-Limited overpenetration (loaded with lightweight HP ammunition)
-Low recoil (than a shotgun or high powered rifle)
-Low blast (than intermediate cal. or high powered rifle)
-Stock + sight radius increases hittability over a handgun
-Moderate capacity (over a shotgun at least)
-More effective than handguns of the same caliber (Slight FPS increase, plus the ergonomic factors)

I thought about having a red-dot with either tritium/fiber optic lit Trijicon style, or a battery operated recticle, but with a dead-man switch that would turn it on when pulled out of the cabinet.

I would also consider putting some kind of recognition device or symbol on the carbine that was kept secret between school administrators and the local police. Something like a blaze orange triangle or plus sign. Just like how US/NATO/Coalition forces put marks and chevron shapes on their tanks…

If I could change the parameters, I would go with teachers armed with CCW handguns of their choice, as running to the "go to" box is problematic at best, unless so many arms are distributed around the school it's ridiculous. But that's not what the original poster is asking here.

Euclidean
October 9, 2006, 07:33 PM
This is actually a good post despite the very silly and unlikely constraints because it's an interesting mental excercise. The crazy thing is I was pondering it earlier and realized that this is exactly how our school manages other things such as thermostat controls and our defibrillator, so maybe it's not too out there.

I orginally suggested shotguns not because they're ideal or even good for the situation, but rather because they're effective and cheap. Schools aren't going to spring for anything that costs very much. They'd stick Hi Point carbines in those boxes if they thought they could get away with it. They'd buy a $500 lockbox and put a $150 gun in it all right...

The M1 Carbine is the right kind of thinking, but come on, schools are not going to go buy milsurps for this any more than police agencies are.

Frangible ammunition is prudent here in any event, but honestly defeating overpenetration outright is not going to happen, and will not matter so much because the terrorist's body is going to take a great deal of the kinetic energy out of whatever we shoot into it anyway.

So simple even a teacher who probably doesn't like guns anyway can understand how to operate it, plus little chance of malfunction caused by the operator or the firearm.

Spraying the place with 00 buck or automatic pistol or rifle fire would only endanger innocent bystanders.

Oh yes with our college degrees and stiff minimum GPA requirements we need the simplest devices possible.

My Texas CHL says I'm licensed to carry one of those super advanced and complicated bottom feeder things, but that's too complicated for me, I don't know how I ever qualified with it. I'm one of those dumbass "left leaning teachers with next to no training".

You know what screw the whole thing and just put a bucket of rocks in the faculty lounge.

The sheer amount of disrespect and hatred for the American educator on this forum is just astonishing.

Thefabulousfink
October 9, 2006, 07:46 PM
http://www.starshipmodeler.com/tech/ed_total.jpg

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:


Seriously, I think the best option is CCW. Americans aren't used to seeing hevily armed guards around children and we don't want schools looking like prisons. With CCW the kids can be protected while appearing to maintain the Status Quo.

Zach S
October 9, 2006, 07:55 PM
AR15s, or the more PC-looking mini 14s.

Eightball
October 9, 2006, 08:01 PM
M1 Carbine--easy to use, effective enough, not alot of recoil for the teachers who will be sensitive to it, more effective than a pistol (since you cannot carry the pistol on your person) at longer ranges, BUT--since it is one of those otherwise worthless rounds (crappy penetration, etc etc), it would be IDEAL for a school.

My 2 cents

Wes Janson
October 9, 2006, 11:39 PM
Cruiser-safe standard plane-Jane AR-15 with an EOTech left in a cruiser-safe condition inside a concealed locker within the office.

Macpherson
October 10, 2006, 06:58 PM
.38 revolvers with frangible loads, or barring that I second the Beretta Cx4 storm, in 9mm also with frangible loads. I cannot for the life of me imagine why anyone would suggest a shotgun for a school situation, would you also use one in a crowded shopping mall or a fair or nightclub?:confused: Shotguns have their place but a crowded chaotic indoor environment is not that place IMHO. Overpenetration is a very real concern here, and as long as the rounds are on target, you are putting hurt on the BG and stopping the fight. I have never heard of a school shooting where the perpetrators used body armor so I'm not sure why that is coming up here :uhoh:. Unless we are talking about a beslan type situation, with heavily armed and armored terrorists no amount of guns in the school would make a difference.

MSGT9410
October 10, 2006, 07:04 PM
What about a pistol caliber carbine, such as a semi-automatic MP5(/10 or /40), or even a Hi-Point. To me this would make sense, as it gives you some of the stability and range of a rifle (at least the amount of range that would be ideal for the distances enountered in a school), while, with the correct ammunition avoids problems of over penetration, thus preventing rounds from going through walls or BGs and hitting innocent students or faculty.

Hardtarget
October 10, 2006, 07:38 PM
I voted AR15 type. Nerves would stop any accuracy with a hand gun. A shotgun is just too many pellets all over the place. A rifle is a little more controllable, big enough to be seen, will have long distance requirement, good stopping power...its what I'd choose if asked to go do the job of stopping an attack in a local school. (hope I never have to go)
Mark

Texfire
October 10, 2006, 07:48 PM
I'd say that honoring, if not encouraging, concealed carry permits is the solution when practiced in addition to the standard practices of lockdowns, shelter in place and dynamic entry by law enforcement is the answer. But I don't have much hope for logic winning out.

Tex

ArfinGreebly
October 10, 2006, 08:20 PM
While I went with M1 Carbine in .30 cal, I think -- within the parameters of the scenario -- that one of the CX4 configurations would probably be better.

CX4 can be had in 9, 40, 45 (mine is 9), it's light, and a really wide range of ammo (including frangibles) can be had for all three calibres.

Beyond the scope of the scenario, I would favor CCW.

An interesting side effect of this is that once the hopolophobia is overcome, the tendency toward institutionalized irresponsibility (read: "socialism") would be abated.

Oh, and bring back rifle teams. Not to show my age or anything, but they had rifle teams when I wuz a mite.

SoCalShooter
October 10, 2006, 08:28 PM
Carbines are great hell even ruger mini 14 or mini 30 would do a good job. Although I voted for high power rifle such as an m1a or maybe ar 10. I can definet agree with the over penetration debate but I still like to have the firepower if I would need it.

Now what about a less lethal option such as stun guns or bean bag type weapons ?

EddieCoyle
October 10, 2006, 08:30 PM
How about an .88 Magnum? It'll shoot through schools. :neener:

DontBurnMyFlag
October 10, 2006, 08:47 PM
Autoloading pistols or revolvers with JHP rounds.
Shotguns with less lethal and standard ammuntions.

My reasoning is as follows.

-Easy to use
-no fear of over penetration
-fits the basic parameters for self defense


I have more but Im pressed for time hahaha

GW
October 10, 2006, 10:30 PM
Much as I love the M1A, schools are in neighborhoods so 308 is just too much power
My vote is for AR-15 actually an M-4 type with frangible ammo and I prefer an Eotech sight Also a handgun, semi-auto for backup


My reasoning: School grounds also include play yards and fields which may mean 100 yard+ shots may be required so IMHO that tosses out pistol caliber rifles and shotguns


At my school we have "Code Red" which is essentially an armed intruder on the campus. The kids are to be locked into their rooms or the nearest room available if SHTF during lunch or recess. From there we huddle on the floor and wait for either the cavalry or the bad guy, whichever comes first, hence the need for the backup handgun.

In my fantasy world, there would be 3 AR's on the campus (with the teachers/staff trained appropriately in their use and when to use them as well as team tactics) They would be in the office and 2 classrooms in essentially a triangle configuration They would be in smash cases, ie if the glass is broken on that case, alarms go off at the PD, sheriffs and school district office, pinpointing where the case was broken and launching the flying squad.
The handguns would be worn CCW at all times and the wearers would also be carrying walkie-talkies as well
Lugging a rifle on the playground well, just doesn't look too good and also tells the BG who to shoot first.

longeyes
October 10, 2006, 10:42 PM
Whatever Sky Marshals carry. Personally I'd opt for a Glock 19 or 17.

Anything in a "lock box" is going to be out of reach or, more likely, stolen long before it's needed.

Sylvan-Forge
October 10, 2006, 11:32 PM
Conceal carry by teachers and staff.

Knowledge of who is qualified and carrying is restricted. Need to know basis.

Training guidelines and requirements to be decided by each state.

Best to let individual select their own weapon. Must be concealed.

Participation is optional, of course.

Let the thugs assume all teachers are armed.

rangerruck
October 10, 2006, 11:46 PM
you need something that everyon can use, without any training hardly, and without much aiming, can put someone down.

GW
October 11, 2006, 04:17 AM
There is no such gun! and do you really want untrained people firing guns in a crowded school?

WolfMansDad
October 11, 2006, 03:28 PM
Same as any indoor scenario, with lots of innocent bystanders. Keep it in a lock-box (small safe) close at hand. Only teachers with training should have them, and there should be some sort of identification system so the SWAT team doesn't mistake the teacher for the shooter when they get to campus. Oh, and the principal ought to know who in his building is armed and with what.

Leave the ARs to the SWAT guys. A rifle inside a building with lots of kids around just doesn't seem like a good idea to me!

Case could be made for a well-concealed pistol as well.

Really, though, a good intelligence network among the kids is MUCH more important than having a gun. You've got to know what's going on around you, who is disgruntled, and who is likely to be violent. Next on the list of things to have would be jiu jitsu and verbal conflict resolution skills. After that a cell phone on you at all times. A firearm is WAY down on that list.

Stiletto Null
October 11, 2006, 04:13 PM
I orginally suggested shotguns not because they're ideal or even good for the situation, but rather because they're effective and cheap. Schools aren't going to spring for anything that costs very much. They'd stick Hi Point carbines in those boxes if they thought they could get away with it. They'd buy a $500 lockbox and put a $150 gun in it all right...You say that like it'd be a bad thing, though.

Hi Point carbines are accurate, reliable, and shoot commonly available ammunition. Put the faux-Storm stock on, and they're even comfortable. $300 would get you (as a large scale institutional buyer, I assume you could swing a decent discount) a "pretty nice looking" carbine with a reflex optic.

My poll choice was "high powered" rifle, but it'd be a .243 FAL or somesuch. More thump than 5.56x45 and better trajectory than 7.62x39, not as much kick as .308.

TBH, a school shooting scenario would not require massive amounts of firepower; engagement distances could be decently long for a high school (if the shooter ventures outside), but I wouldn't plan on having to engage more than maybe two people.

hso
October 11, 2006, 04:34 PM
No gun is suitable under ths scenario.

There isn't enough time or money in any school budget to properly train a small group of teachers at each school for this task so weapons would be more of a liability than beneficial. The requirements would be the same as having a tac team to respond to attacks. Prohibitively expensive for initial training and ongoing training for each team so what you get is amatures trying to do the job of professionals.

If the problem isn't severe enough to put electronic badged entrances or armed guards at every school then it certainly isn't serious enough to put guns into the hands of a group of half trained school staff and educators.

Exemptions to CCW restrictions on shool grounds need to be put in place for school employees. This removes the certainty of a soft target for these fiends and allows the teacher at the scene at the time to choose to respond or not.

bclark1
October 11, 2006, 04:38 PM
in lieu of letting CCL holders who know their own stuff carry their own stuff, i'd muse on shotguns with buck. you don't want would-be rambos to have guns they'll try and take precision HRT-style shots with, you want more of a hold-off weapon til the pros arrive, and one that is effective yet takes relatively little skill to employ. rifles are silly, you hear people worrying about overpenetration all the time, what happens when the trained teacher goes down and ms. lollypop fresh out of college freaks and empties the rest of the mag all over the place, bullets going through several rooms worth of drywall left and right? you don't need the range anyway, and pistols would require far more training to get people effective with. pump shotguns are cheap too.

.45Guy
October 11, 2006, 04:49 PM
in lieu of letting CCL holders who know their own stuff carry their own stuff, i'd muse on shotguns with buck. you don't want would-be rambos to have guns they'll try and take precision HRT-style shots with, you want more of a hold-off weapon til the pros arrive, and one that is effective yet takes relatively little skill to employ. rifles are silly, you hear people worrying about overpenetration all the time, what happens when the trained teacher goes down and ms. lollypop fresh out of college freaks and empties the rest of the mag all over the place, bullets going through several rooms worth of drywall left and right? you don't need the range anyway, and pistols would require far more training to get people effective with. pump shotguns are cheap too.

Finally a sane response.

jerkyman45
October 11, 2006, 04:56 PM
A few Remmington 870s would be nice, but this kind of thing isn't practical. The most practical would be letting CCW teachers to carry their own.

shield20
October 11, 2006, 05:37 PM
Beretta CX4 Storm in 9mm, with 15 rnd mags loaded with light and fast HPs.

More precise, easier to shoot, handy, low recoil, low noise, accurate.

Fosbery
October 11, 2006, 05:52 PM
Semi-auto only FN P90 or HK MP7 with holosights.

Small and compact, large magazine capacity, ambidextrous, good penetration on body armour but not through flesh or walls, good stopping power.

Stauble
October 11, 2006, 06:52 PM
when i voted other i had Uzi in mind because of its small caliber, which wont over penetrate and go through walls. it can sort of fuunction as a rifle so it would be more accurate then a handgun. with a 30 or 50rd magazine in it you wont have to worry bout reloading too much.
an MP-5 would work just as well

realistically though i think that CCW holding teachers ought to have the option of carrying. and i think that everyone ought to take a gun safety course. hell they teach our kids bout safe sex at some schools so why not gun safety too?

Fosbery
October 11, 2006, 07:29 PM
Some schools? Not to go off topic but I'm seriously worried if there are schools not informing students about that sort of thing.

GW
October 11, 2006, 09:04 PM
in lieu of letting CCL holders who know their own stuff carry their own stuff, i'd muse on shotguns with buck. you don't want would-be rambos to have guns they'll try and take precision HRT-style shots with, you want more of a hold-off weapon til the pros arrive, and one that is effective yet takes relatively little skill to employ. rifles are silly, you hear people worrying about overpenetration all the time, what happens when the trained teacher goes down and ms. lollypop fresh out of college freaks and empties the rest of the mag all over the place, bullets going through several rooms worth of drywall left and right? you don't need the range anyway, and pistols would require far more training to get people effective with. pump shotguns are cheap too.

And Ms Lollypop wouldn't do the same with a shotgun?:rolleyes:

Why is that so many people think a shotgun requires little or no training?:banghead:
Each shell launches from 8 to 12 .32 caliber projectiles all at once and even the best ammo produces the occasional flyer that strays inches from the group even at close range. A shotgun in close quarters, especially in a crowded school, requires far greater skill than a handgun or rifle.

bclark1
October 11, 2006, 09:37 PM
like i said, no HRT shots, i'm not expecting anyone at a school to deliver precision fire. the teachers are on defense, not offense, and if it's a guy with any skill they just want to keep him from entering their area of protection before the professionals get on scene. you'd be putting pellets down hallways not likely to exceed the effective range of 50 yards, if that. with a rifle, or pistol, you'd have somewhere between two-tenths and fourt-tenths of an inch diameter to put on your target, which takes skill under stress. just going for a quick google check, with a shotgun, you've got more than 6 up to 20 inches of diameter (http://www.internetarmory.com/shotgun_ammo.htm) to work with between 7 and 20 yards. much easier. if you're concerned about spray and pray, the inexperienced teacher would also not likely be carrying shotgun speedloaders, so emptying the tube would be single digit shots at best, as opposed to spray and pray on a rifle hi-cap. a quick google search shows that buckshot will penetrate 12-16 inches (http://www.frfrogspad.com/shotgun.htm) of gelatin at 7 yards, which is about what handgun JHPs would. maybe you can throw some xtreme shock in the M249 you think the principal should be blastin away with, as it won't overpenetrate (um, or something, err), but then again the bullets would be attracted to the BG's and dodge the kids because they're so awesome.

GW
October 12, 2006, 01:57 AM
maybe you can throw some xtreme shock in the M249 you think the principal should be blastin away with, as it won't overpenetrate (um, or something, err), but then again the bullets would be attracted to the BG's and dodge the kids because they're so awesome

You seem to think that about buckshot
So what's a teacher to do when the loony is across the playground at recess shooting at the kids? Do you want to try telling me the pattern width of your buckshot at 100 yards?

And, since you know how to Google may I suggest you look up "Frangible ammunition" which will hopefully allay some of your overpenetration concerns for rifle ammo in the principal's SAW.

And why not HRT style headshots with a rifle?

Joe Demko
October 12, 2006, 08:42 AM
The main thing school personnel should be doing is getting the children to cover. Returning fire and taking down badguys would be secondary to that if the option even existed.

The sheer amount of disrespect and hatred for the American educator on this forum is just astonishing.

Get used to it. Both here and at TFL I've heard teachers called so many foul names, with "socialist" being an especially popular one, that I no longer bother replying. The bizarre fantasies the chief offenders have about the way school systems work indicates that they aren't sufficiently in touch with reality to be worth the energy of a reply anyway. Many of them truly, honestly believe that we issue grades based on "self-esteem" for example.

Keith Wheeler
October 12, 2006, 10:30 AM
Get used to it. Both here and at TFL I've heard teachers called so many foul names, with "socialist" being an especially popular one, that I no longer bother replying. The bizarre fantasies the chief offenders have about the way school systems work indicates that they aren't sufficiently in touch with reality to be worth the energy of a reply anyway. Many of them truly, honestly believe that we issue grades based on "self-esteem" for example.

Yep all teachers are socialist atheists anti-gunners bent on destroying what it really means to be Uh-mare-i-kan, only interested in turning out brainwashed wimps. :rolleyes:

Being an awful fence sitting moderate/libertarian, it seems to me that this is just another situation where the left wants to say "why can't we just make the problems go away" and the right has to find some scape-goat to blame the problems on.

It does get tiring. I'm just glad my wife doesn't visit this forum, all the anti-teacher sentiment here would make her feel worse about dealing with the already difficult challenges of trying to be a good educator.

http://www.teamsanctuary.com/images/steph.jpg

hso
October 12, 2006, 11:34 AM
The anti-teacher anti-education morons are as guilty of focusing on the outlying examples to prove their predjudice as the Brady Bunch.:banghead:

ndh87
October 12, 2006, 02:03 PM
I would probably argue against a shotgun for this situation due to the fact that buckshot tends to spread out...which is the last thing you want when you have innocent bystanders nearby, possibly downrange, etc. Also because of that i wouldnt want to have to wrry about over penetration, even though many school walls are cinderblock, we all know that it doesnt take much from a .223 or 7.62x39 to go through a wall (after a few shots) I think i would favor a revolver set up to shoot .45 ACP, plenty of knockdown, and a lower risk of over penetration. However, seeing as most school walls are concrete, brick, etc. i wouldnt be too worried about using a .38.

However, realisticaly i'd have to say the most likely weapon to be favored for such a situation would be some sort of taser. (the ones with the darts and wires)

Carl N. Brown
October 12, 2006, 03:10 PM
OK, a weapon in a school locker for emergency is the same
concept as a ship's captain having a weapons locker for
piracy or mutiny. Except who is going to be using the weapon?

I vote for an M79 blooper shooting nylon beanbags containing
lead shot: less-lethal weapon that a teacher or assistant
principal might actually aim and fire in good conscience.

Predators attack schools precsiely because they are an
environment where the defensive use of lethal weapons
is hard to think of.

I would be reluctant to fire in a school: too much potential
for collateral damage.

laurafan
October 12, 2006, 04:32 PM
I'd vote for a Benelli loaded with less lethal rounds ( beanbag, rubber ball ). Give teachers willing to undergo some training the lethal ammo. The benelli can swap the round chamber without having to unload the mag.

bclark1
October 12, 2006, 04:57 PM
GW man, they're teachers, not professionals. if you're a teacher, great, and i hope we've got more like you, but i don't think there is a prayer that we'll get the majority of the educational employees up to snuff for shooting actively, and even if we could it would raise a lot of policy issues. my point of view is that it if a school implemented a violence strategy would be short-range and reactive, and the goals of the teachers would be to corral and shield the children, not expressly to eliminate the threat. the premise of a "teacher response team" donning riot gear and storming the gymnasium is preposterous, and the point of employing this would be to buy the officers outside time and provide a defensive option for classrooms. i understand some schools do lockdown drills already, and that is my impression of what would happen, they'd try to isolate the students from the threat, not create a proactive resistence to neutralize it. for that purpose, i think shotguns are the best balance you'll get. they are easier to use with relatively little training for reasons cited - why don't more people shoot trap with pistols if not? their limited capacity encourages discretion, because you're not going to spray and pray if you'll be reloading one shell at a time every five seconds. they're best utilized at close ranges, which reinforces the intention by my assumptions, to stop an aggressor attempting to get into one of the student lockdown points. in terms of actually acquiring and storing them at a school, they're relatively cheap, they're robust and require little maintenance, and their large size (even with the barrel removed) decreases the likelihood of theft, as opposed to pistols or modular compact rifles that can be broken down with ease. i don't deny the shortcomings you've mentioned, and others, like how the teachers are SOL if the shooters are wearing armor. but grounded in reality, this is my opinion of the option that has the fewest drawbacks. you don't have to agree, but just try and understand what i'm getting at. it's been fun and you can have the last word if you're so inclined.

jonnyc
October 12, 2006, 08:26 PM
#1 - I'm nuts about guns (very different from a gun-nut).

#2 - I've been teaching in a public High School for almost 15 years (I better not spell anything wrong!).

#3 - No amount of training will make teachers or administrators proficient shooters.

#4 - Turn-over of teachers, and especially administrators, is so high that proper training is largely irrelevant.

#5 - Allowing CCW holders to carry in school, with possible state police supervision, is the most practical solution.

#6 - One step better would be the provision of a few pump shotguns loaded with less-than-lethal ammunition. Anything more is too dangerous and irresponsible. Not sure at this time how best to regulate or mandate their use. I'd be happy to have one locked in my closet.

#7 - As stated above, teachers can't be expected to turn into SWAT-jockeys and hunt down a hallway attacker. First priority is cover and isolation. The idea of being relatively defenseless in the face of a direct attack does scare the crap out of me. My classroom does contain a number of strategically-placed bits of wood, metal, and throwable furniture.

GW
October 12, 2006, 08:42 PM
i don't deny the shortcomings you've mentioned, and others, like how the teachers are SOL if the shooters are wearing armor. but grounded in reality, this is my opinion of the option that has the fewest drawbacks. you don't have to agree
Well I understand your POV better and will have to simply agree to disagree.
My whole stance is simply based on saving kids lives.
Back in the 80's here in California we had a lunatic name of Purdy who went onto a Stockton school playground and shot a bunch of kids with an AK-47 clone. I like to believe that a trained teacher/anybody with a rifle could have taken him out quickly and perhaps saved a few lives. And maybe saved CA from some very onerous laws too as it turned out:banghead:
The idea of herding all the kids into a room just doesn't cut it for me but in that situation, you are absolutely right that a shotgun would be the better choice if the BG come through the door.
I also admit that I am a rarirty/oddity in that I am a teacher who has taken a lot of firearms training courses, so I am confident in my skills with the rifle (2 courses of tactical rifle) and know (or at least I like to think I know:D ) the strengths and limitations of the riot gun (3 tactical shotgun courses).
Unfortunately, the bottom line here is that this is all just wishful thinking, at least here in California
Some day I would like to shake you and your wife's hand though
Teacher's who enjoy the shooting sports are rare jewels indeed
Be well.

GW
October 12, 2006, 08:54 PM
#3 - No amount of training will make teachers or administrators proficient shooters.
Why do you feel this way? Anyone motivated to take the training would probably be willing to practice and stay proficient. There are always exceptions to this but I think that statement is just wrong.



#4 - Turn-over of teachers, and especially administrators, is so high that proper training is largely irrelevant.


Why would the training be irrelevant?
Teachers do jump schools but that doesn't mean they would forget their training.

Squidward
October 12, 2006, 11:23 PM
I agree with hso.

jonnyc
October 12, 2006, 11:35 PM
Hi GW.
To answer your second first, I've probably seen more teachers move out of state and/or leave the profession than transfer to another school. Also, part of the training discussed above involved team activities. Constant changes of team members can seriously degrade the effectiveness of a team.
As doctors make the worst patients, so do teachers make the worst students. I have endured many horrific in-services where lots of training took place, but nothing was learned. I guess highly motivated shooter-teachers would go the extra mile to attain mastery, but I had in mind a wider, state-mandated pool of teachers who would place security training further down the list, somewhere around "Differentiated Instruction" and UBD.:eek:

S&Wfan
October 12, 2006, 11:46 PM
Hi,

Forget the "assault rifles." Not gonna happen in this country of so many folks who have never handled guns and fear 'em for irrational reasons.

Forget the shotguns. I wouldn't want my kid nearby when a nervous teacher swung the scattergun around. Heck, even Cheney got a little trigger happy with one.

Forget tons of training bucks spent on tens of thousands of teachers.

THE ONLY ECONOMICAL, EFFECTIVE SOLUTION . . . IS CCW CARRY . . . BY CURRENT CCW HOLDERS WHO TEACH!

Of course, these folks would need training, certification AND recertification on an annual basis.


BEST GUN?

I agree, the locked up Rambo rifles WON'T stop the initial attack and bloodletting. I'd leave this to law enforcement.

No, the best gun would be a stealthy gun that could be carried safely and totally undetectable on a daily basis by the teachers in the classrooms.

WHEN LOCKDOWN IS SIGNALED, MOST OF THE KIDS ARE SAFE . . . and the only folks in danger will be those locked in a single classroom with a BG.

BEST GUN? A Kel-Tec P32 . . . UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL, could neutralize the threat OR, even better, force the BG to surrender without a shot fired.

A .32ACP round would not be as great a threat to others.

Yep, stealth carry would keep a lot of BGs away . . . and eliminating schools as ultimate "soft targets" should be the goal.

GW
October 13, 2006, 12:22 AM
I have endured many horrific in-services where lots of training took place, but nothing was learned.

Ok you got me there:)

Keith Wheeler
October 13, 2006, 11:30 AM
#3 - No amount of training will make teachers or administrators proficient shooters.

...

#5 - Allowing CCW holders to carry in school, with possible state police supervision, is the most practical solution.

Uh what? So anyone who is a teacher can't be trained to be a proficient enough shooter to obtain a CCW?

jonnyc
October 13, 2006, 05:55 PM
Just what I said. Mandating teachers, even willing ones, to become shooters will not work. However, there are already lots of shooters who are already teachers. They can be trained to shoot in a school environment. The equation will not work in the other direction.

The Deer Hunter
October 13, 2006, 06:07 PM
SHotguns would be good, although, if the shooter(s) is in a crowd, or a crowded part of the school a rifle wouldnt be a bad choice

Juna
October 13, 2006, 08:32 PM
While I think an M4 would be nicely suited for the job, I don't think that would ever fly with the antis and the liberal media (not that that should stop it from happening in a fair world where the IIA is valued). I think auto-loading pistols or revolvers would be far more likely to be put in a school for starters. The media would plaster pictures of M16s and AK-47s and the words "assault rifle" all over the front pages. I can see it now... "assault rifles allowed in schools," (not that that's a bad thing, IMO).

db_tanker
October 13, 2006, 09:04 PM
A simple wheelgun in 38 special. Its concealable so that you can keep it "out of sight out of mind" and it still has a good amount of stopping power.

I don't think a Mossberg or a poodle-shooter in math class is somthing that should be needed or what we depend on.

The simple fact that the teachers and principals are CCW would be plenty of deterent, IMO.


MTCW
D

billybob
October 13, 2006, 09:58 PM
There isn't enough time or money in any school budget to properly train a small group of teachers at each school for this task so weapons would be more of a liability than beneficial.

hso had the ONLY sane answer.

From reading some of the others, I'd say...Airsoft.

:barf:

RioShooter
October 14, 2006, 12:20 PM
Don't know who voted for the shotgun but way too much collateral damage there unless you are using slugs or one of the bean bag rounds, but then if the BG were to wear a vest, you whack them with a 12 ga 3" mag slug it would break ribs and likely stop their heart.

I disagree; partially. My Mossberg Persuader loaded with "00" buckshot will pattern in the COM out to 30 feet. Shooting across a classroom would not be a problem. However, if I had to shoot down a LONG hallway, I agree a rifle would be better.

cyco668
October 15, 2006, 12:27 AM
Teacher's shouldn't be relied on to fire the weapon's just because the have a job of being a teacher. Some of my teachers have been alcoholics, very small in stature, or just someone I wouldn't entrust my life with in a crisis situation involving guns. I even had a teacher who commited suicide. With a registered handgun no less.
My answer to this post is this: Use the arsenal from the local prison system. What are those guards using? Their weapons are for close range indoors and distance outdoors. They also have to worry about not hitting bystanders and they have lethal and non-lethal options. The state already procured the weapons and ammo, and the guns have been tried and tested.
Option 2: Halon. Replace the sprinkler system with a halon system. It'll stop the bad guys AND put out fires. See the benefits? If the bad guys are outside, get all the students inside, then set off the halon. That way the bad guys wont have any targets and will leave. See how a halon system will get rid of the bad guys? (once again, I'm sure no one is going to agree with me...)

KC&97TA
October 15, 2006, 02:08 AM
I'd like to say a 9mm AR-15, but I really wish someone made a .45acp AR-15. In a school, I'd worry about over penetration, so I'd stay low on the caliber, but want to back a punch, like a .45acp hand gun, but with a little more accuracy and range.

So my choice would be a Tommy Gun :uhoh:

GW
October 15, 2006, 05:10 AM
Teacher's shouldn't be relied on to fire the weapon's just because the have a job of being a teacher. Some of my teachers have been alcoholics, very small in stature, or just someone I wouldn't entrust my life with in a crisis situation involving guns. I even had a teacher who commited suicide. With a registered handgun no less.
My answer to this post is this: Use the arsenal from the local prison system. What are those guards using? Their weapons are for close range indoors and distance outdoors. They also have to worry about not hitting bystanders and they have lethal and non-lethal options. The state already procured the weapons and ammo, and the guns have been tried and tested.
Option 2: Halon. Replace the sprinkler system with a halon system. It'll stop the bad guys AND put out fires. See the benefits? If the bad guys are outside, get all the students inside, then set off the halon. That way the bad guys wont have any targets and will leave. See how a halon system will get rid of the bad guys? (once again, I'm sure no one is going to agree with me...)

I think you miss the point
Teachers are the best candidates because they are THERE on the scene when SHTF not 15 minutes away racing in in a patrol car. As for the various mishaps and shortcomings of your teachers well guess what! Police have the same problems with alcoholism and suicide.

As for prison guards, when it is a deadly situation they use rifles & shotguns
Halon has possibilities except that classrooms aren't airtight and that gas gets in ther as well,

cyco668
October 15, 2006, 08:59 AM
"Halon has possibilities except that classrooms aren't airtight and that gas gets in ther as well"
I was hoping that would happen ;)
I was joking about the halon. I wasn't serious, just my attempt at satire and cynicism. Hopefully everybody took it as a stupid joke.

My HS had a security guard. I have no idea if she was armed, but i know she carried handcuffs and pepper spray. She wasn't a regular rent-a-cop. She was a County or school (i'm not sure which) employee who conducted investigations for vandalism and theft. Since security guards aren't really an option for every school, how about giving the ROTC kids real rifles? They already have spiffy uniforms and the drill teams have helmets.

Alot of people support the carbines. I love 10mm's. So how about the Olympic Arms 10mm AR15 style carbines?

Hardware
October 15, 2006, 10:51 AM
I'd vote for a pistol caliber carbine with frangible ammo. The longer sight radius is going to make an inexpert shooter more accurate than a pistol.

I'm sure this will happen right after I have to wash my car to get all the poop off it from the flying pigs.

1) It is a matter of cubic money. They'll never spend in any meaningful way on school defense.

2) They'll never open the schools and community up to the sort of legal exposure if ;
a) An innocent person is hit by a stray round.
b) Anybody is injured in a school rampage, even if it is by a rampager.
c) Heaven forbid if an unauthorized person or a kid gets their hands on one of these weapons.
d) Just having weapons in a school.

3) The chance of you or your child being injured or killed by a school rampager is so remote, you have a better chance of winning the lottery.

Sylvan-Forge
October 16, 2006, 04:40 AM
State certified annual training course.

Curriculum could be time on SOP, basic marksmanship, draw and fire, move and fire, cover and concealment, etc. not unlike gunsite, thunderranch, blackwater, etc.

Volunteering teachers can seek out all the additional instruction they want, perhaps with some training schools offering accredited courses that go toward the training requirement. I would imagine that a teacher could get a discount rate for training. Need I say the words?

Longarms are pretty much out within the classroom environment for many reasons, such as theft, unauthorized use, etc.

Flexible and rapid response is best achieved with a concealed sidearm by teacher and staff on the school grounds.
Operational security is best achieved with a concealed sidearm.
No one knows who is armed and who is not (hopefully). This is the key.

Teachers could have a sit down together to drive this point home.
Consciencous objectors advised to keep their traps shut. As in, it is your duty as a public school teacher, if you will not carry, to at least maintain operational security and keep silent on the issue.
Might be a fun vacation for some teachers to buddy up and head off to Gunsite academy or the likes.

As far as legal .. does the state think parents of murdered kids are not going to seek damages for failing to implement defenses?
State requires children are educated.
State provides for schools.
State is responsible for child safety while going to, at, and going from school.
So, if the state does not want to be open to liability, they must implement a viable and realistic means of immediate defense.

The best means, IMO, is concealed carry.

Hypnogator
October 18, 2006, 09:42 PM
Didn't mean to abandon this topic, but I've been unable to log on for a few days because Verizon decided, with no warning, to terminate their data program. :cuss: :fire: :cuss: I'm now a Sprint user, FWIW. :neener: :neener: :neener:

I should have added "pistol caliber carbine" to the poll -- that's what happens when you post at midnight after a l-o-n-g day's drive. :uhoh:

Anyway, my take on the problem: I would recommend the M-1 Carbine or a pistol caliber carbine. Since there are no constraints on size, it would be ridiculous to issue handguns of any type. They're much harder to shoot accurately, and the possibility of having to take long shots down hallways or outside on school grounds pretty well eliminates them from consideration. High powered rifles are out, because of concerns about overpenetration, and because they're not all that easy to shoot for the recoil-shy. Shotguns would tend to be high recoiling also, albeit somewhat easier to use. IMHO, even intermediate caliber cartridges such as the 5.56mm & 7.62X39 raise concerns about overpenetration, and the recoil, while negligible to an experienced shooter, may be daunting to a teacher who has only been to the range a couple of times. The .22 RF's wouldn't necessarily be a bad choice, but would lack the penetration to pierce even the most rudimentary armor. The M-1 Carbine in .30 Carbine is one of the easiest and most fool-proof weapons there is to shoot, and the recoil shouldn't affect even the most recoil-shy. Loaded with soft-point hunting ammo, it is quite effective, and mine, at least, is very accurate out to a couple of hundred yards. A pistol caliber carbine in .40 S&W or .45 ACP would be equally as effective, although I'm not entirely certain that any are as easy to use as the M-1.

Thanks to all who replied! :D :D :D

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