What are the differences between these 2 Ranger bullets?


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mwpslp
October 10, 2006, 07:15 PM
Winchester has a Ranger SXT load in 9mm 124 gr in 2 versions. One says "Partition Gold" and the other says "Bonded". Can someone tell me the difference other than the bonded version costing a little more? Also does one make a better self defense load than the other? Thanks in advance for the help.

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Rampant_Colt
October 10, 2006, 07:31 PM
Winchester has a Ranger SXT load in 9mm 124 gr in 2 versions. One says "Partition Gold" and the other says "Bonded". Can someone tell me the difference other than the bonded version costing a little more? Also does one make a better self defense load than the other? Thanks in advance for the help.


Partition Gold 9mm's? I'm aware of the PG hunting loads they offer in .44mag and.357mag, but they aren't available in 9mm that i'm aware of... http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/handgunlist.aspx?cart=OW1tIEx1Z2Vy

The Ranger SXT are their older 'Law Enforcement Only' cartridges. They improved them by bonding the jacket to the lead inside. They are replaced by a better load known as Ranger T. The Ranger T's are better across the board for their intended use. I wouldn't hesitate to use the Ranger SXT for self-defense though. They are an improved design of the notorious Black Talon loading from the mid-90's

mwpslp
October 10, 2006, 07:34 PM
Well I am staring at a box of them marked "Law Enforcement Only" that say 124 gr 9mm partition gold.

Bruce333
October 10, 2006, 07:36 PM
Yup. 9mm partition gold: http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=873&osCsid=2fb9354042116e3d34cdd0b9b02914b7

here's what "partition" means: http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/muzzlepartition.aspx

a solid partition mid-section to lock the rear core in place

Rampant_Colt
October 10, 2006, 07:43 PM
Those must be relatively new.
I did a search and found this link in their Law Enforcement Only ammo:
http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/catalog/handgundetail.aspx?symbol=RA92P&cart=OW1tIEx1Z2Vy

They look like a promising load.
The SXT, Partition Gold and Ranger T loadings are distinctly different.

scout26
October 10, 2006, 08:23 PM
Didn't Winchester come out with the SXT's to "replace" the infamous Balck Talon's (aka "cop killer" :barf: ) bullets.

IIRC, SXT is the acronym for "Same eXact Thing". I love Marketing guys with a great sense of humor. :evil:

mwpslp
October 10, 2006, 08:27 PM
Yes I heard that as well but I was wondering about the differences in stopping ability between the "bonded" bullets and the "partition gold" bullets.

Odd Job
October 10, 2006, 09:29 PM
I have also been trying to find out the chronological development and names of the Ranger/Talon series. I wrote to Winchester and they didn't reply. The way I understand it (from various boards that I have searched) is like this:

1. The original Black Talon was a Lubalox coated JHP with sharp petals, nickel case.
2. Then came the Ranger SXT, which was the same projectile but loaded in a brass case.
3. Then came the Supreme SXT, which is a JHP with rounded petals, in a nickel case.
4. Then came the Ranger-T, which is a JHP with sharp petals, in a nickel case.

And to confuse things, they also have a Ranger JHP which is a JHP with no petals, in a brass case.

I have some of these, but I would like to get samples of these projectiles in matching fired/unfired pairs for my research. So far I have been unsuccessful :(

Here is a pic of some of the cartridges I have:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/WinchesterCartridges.jpg

As far as I have been able to find out, number 1 is the Ranger SXT, number 2 is the Supreme SXT, number 3 is a Silvertip and number 4 is a Ranger JHP.

mwpslp
October 11, 2006, 08:43 AM
In the photo it looks like #1 is the original Black Talon.

Odd Job
October 11, 2006, 09:07 AM
@ mwpslp

That's what I used to think, but I am now of the opinion that it is not the original Black Talon because it is in a brass case, not nickel. I would love an official comment from WIN about this.

dfaugh
October 11, 2006, 09:15 AM
1. The original Black Talon was a Lubalox coated JHP with sharp petals, nickel case.
2. Then came the Ranger SXT, which was the same projectile but loaded in a brass case.

I have a box of the original Black Talon +P+ 9mm. They have the coating, but they are brass cased, not nickel. I also have a couple boxes of the Ranger SXT (again 9mm +P+) They don't have the coating on the bullet, but are identical in all other respects (that are visible). And, of course the boxes are all marked "Law Enforcement Only".

I picked these up a LONG time ago (before "Black Talons became some kinda collectors item, and the prices went way up), not because they were BTs, but because they were +P+.

ceetee
October 11, 2006, 09:28 AM
IIRC, the marketing and advertising of the replacement for the Black Talon called it "Supreme eXpansion Talon" (or SXT).

I kinda like "Same eXact Thing" better, though...

Odd Job
October 11, 2006, 09:29 AM
@ dfaugh

Can you please post images of the box and one cartridge headstamp of your Black Talons?
Also, can you post a picture of the front of one of your Ranger SXT rounds? I would appreciate that greatly.

See here:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs12.htm

Scroll down to Winchester Black Talon revisited.

Odd Job
October 11, 2006, 09:32 AM
@ ceetee

The Supreme SXT is definitely different from the Black Talon. These are the main differences:

1. The Supreme SXT has rounded petals.
2. The Supreme SXT does not have the Lubalox coating.
3. The Supreme SXT has 8 petals whereas the Black Talon has only 6.

dfaugh
October 11, 2006, 09:36 AM
Odd Job,
I'll try, however my digital camera (4 years old, so in the computer world, it's officially an antique!) doesn't like to take close up shots. It used to, but not any more. Maybe I can do it with my scanner.

Odd Job
October 11, 2006, 09:42 AM
@ dfaugh

The scanner will be more than adequate, even for the headstamp and the nose of the cartridge. I recently submitted unknown headstamps to the AFTE forum, after scanning the cases on the glass directly. They were very happy with the quality, and incorporated them in their headstamp database!

Odd Job
October 11, 2006, 09:49 AM
Here is a scan of the nose of a Supreme SXT, done on my Epson scanner, resting directly on the glass. That detail is good enough for what I want to see. Specks = dust on the glass.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/SupremeSXT.jpg

Phil DeGraves
October 11, 2006, 11:13 AM
As I understand it, the black "coating" is not a coating at all; just the color of the bullet after processing and manufacture. The SXT is "coated" to give it the gold color for the sake of the PC police. The NAACP and other racist groups complained about the "black" look of the bullet.

hotpig
October 12, 2006, 02:27 AM
The Ranger ammo has gone through many designs over the years. The original Ranger SXT Controlled Expansion Technology were probably the left over Black Talons.

http://www.prestostore.com/cgi-bin/storefront.pl?ref=hotpig27&pg=28456

Winchester did some changes to the powder and latter changed to brass cases and 50 round boxes.

In 1998 they stopped production of the black lubalox coated Ranger SXT. It was replaced with the Ranger T-Series and is still there most popular Ranger product.

In 2001 if I remember right they started production on the Ranger Partition Gold. The PG ammo was expensive compared to the T-Series and the budget Ranger jhp ammo.After two years production stopped due to low sales.

In 2005 the Ranger T-Series 9mm 124+P was added to the line also production on the bonded series ammo started. The bonded ammo is still hard to get. Next week will make it a full year since I ordered the bonded line. So far I have only received the 9mm 124+P and 357Sig.

odd job already covered the Supreme SXT in earlier posts.

hotpig
October 12, 2006, 02:42 AM
Back to mwpslp original question.

Since the Partition Gold is a discontinued item I would stash it away. It may be good for cash or trading some day. The PG ammo was not on the market long and the bonded is just getting to the market. I have not seen or heard data on any real live flesh and bone shooting with either round yet.

Odd Job
October 12, 2006, 08:34 AM
@ hotpig

Thanks very much for posting that SXT Controlled Expansion info. Is that the original Ranger SXT or is it another version of the Ranger SXT? If it is the original, then the information in the Tactical Briefs that I linked is wrong. That would mean that the original Black Talon was in the brass case and the Ranger SXT was in the nickel case. Edit: or does this mean that SXTs were produced in brass and nickel cases?

I would love a bullet board with all those Winchester cartridges lined up in chronolgical order. It just seems impossible to get all the information in one place. And contradictions abound on the net.

FilJos
October 12, 2006, 11:01 AM
A few years ago my buddy and I went to the range to do some fun shooting and plinking. Before we left we asked to borrow my dad's last service 9mm. He also gave us a bunch of ammo for it, stating "go ahead and just shoot this stuff up, it's been sitting around and I'm not gonna use it."

We went to the range, shot up all 350 rounds or so of the ammo and later that day while looking stuff up on the internet realized how much we could have sold those Black Talons for. :banghead:

It's amazing what some people were paying for them.

hotpig
October 12, 2006, 11:14 AM
The picture is of a early Ranger box. It was just repackaged Black Talon ammo. Winchester did do some changes later and changed the Ranger to the brass case.

Winchester used to make a sales demo display on their Ranger products. I have only seen one a few years ago. It had what you are looking for but it had all of their Ranger products including rifle and shotgun loads. I did not buy it because they wanted 1200.00 for it.

hotpig
October 12, 2006, 11:42 AM
Black Talon prices are down compared to what they used to be. Back in the early days of online auction boards 9mm BT sold as low as 46.00 per box. The highest bid that I remember was 64.00.

Everybody that had it stashed away put it on auction. The market was flooded for a while and it drove the price down.By the early part of this decade it had dropped to 22.00 per box.

In the past few years the old black tip Ranger SXT ammo in 44 mag,357mag,380,45+P and 9mm +P+ have climbed up in value.

The 44 and 357 will always be collectable since they stopped production in the Ranger line even before they stopped production of the other lubalox SXT ammo. The .380 was never made in the BT so Ranger SXT was the only option if you wanted a talon for this caliber. The +P and +P+ rounds will also hold their value because of a couple of reasons. The BT was not made in a hot round and they often were often hard to find even back when they were in production. Winchester did not do large production runs of these loads and PD's generally grabbed them up fast.

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