Handgun and my 19 yearold friend


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GregGry
October 10, 2006, 08:21 PM
Hello, I apoligize if I put this in the wrong place. Here is the situation:

I am 22 years of age, and I have a good friend thats 19 years old (going to be 20 soon). He wants a handgun, looking for something like a xd40. Here is the problem. His mother and step father said they would go to the gun store with him, and buy the pistol for him, but he could not store the pistol at the house :scrutiny:. That was 4 months ago. Now that he has the money to buy one, his parents are telling him that they wont buy it for him (he would be paying for it). He is stuck between a rock and a hard place.

His blood related father could possibly buy it for him, but he doesn't want to go there because he doesn't care to talk with him much. Since his Mother and step father are no longer willing to buy it for him, he doesn't have many options. Both he and I live in Wisconsin.

Is there any way that he can have a pistol of his own? I am not going to buy one for him due to that being a straw purchase. I have thought that it might be a possibility if he buys the pistol from a person that isn't a FFL dealer, then he could own it legaly. Is this true? What about ammo purchases? Since you have to be 21 to buy handgun ammo, is the only option he has for buying ammo through his parents?

The last thing is, would it be legal for me to buy an xd40, and just let him use it when he goes to the range? The gun would be in my possesion at all times, except times when he is firing at the range. I will be at the range anytime he is firing it, so the gun will technically never leave my sight. That would be one option of allowing him to go to the range with my friends and I, since he can't rent a pistol. Then again I don't want to get into trouble because I am letting him use one of my pistols, and giving him ammo to use with the pistol. Its stupid that things have to be this complicated just because someone is a little more then a year younger then 21 :banghead:

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PlayboyPenguin
October 10, 2006, 08:23 PM
If he can't buy a gun legally then do not aid him in buying one...period. Trying to find a way to do it is a crime if he is the one paying for it..

GregGry
October 10, 2006, 08:28 PM
If you read what I posted, you would see that I am not aiding him in buying one. I was asking if there is any legal way he can obtain a pistol, and ammunition other then with his parents. That and if I can let him use a pistol I own while at the range, and under my supervision. I am not going to buy him a pistol or ammo. If I can't legaly let him use a pistol I have and ammo of my own while at a shooting range, then so be it. My only involvement in his situation is letting him know what his LEGAL options are besides having his parents buy him the pistol. After all informing someone on what the laws are and what they can do within the laws, isn't a crime.

SoCalShooter
October 10, 2006, 08:32 PM
PlayboyPenguin is right. Tell him to save his money its not that long. Go to the range and rent for now. Doing much else can be seen as trying to get a minor a weapon and you dont want that felony. So please just tell him to be patient. If the law says 21 for ammo and 21 for a handgun you should stick to it. Anything else can be considered a felony.

doggscube
October 10, 2006, 08:32 PM
402 posts and you don't know this is a gray area in which you don't want to be?

The closest I'd imagine you can get to buying a handgun for someone under 21 is to buy one just like the one he wants with your own money, keep your gun at your house, never let him have your gun except to let him shoot your gun, then sell your gun to him when he is of age.

If you're buying it, the key phrase above is "your gun." Don't do anything that can be seen as it not being your gun. Don't take his money.

-Jeff

GregGry
October 10, 2006, 08:40 PM
Again I will restate. I am not accepting money from him for anything. I am not buying him anything. I am just going to inform him of what his LEGAL options are. I have wanted a XD9 or a XD40 for a while. If I buy one it will be for myself. I need to know if I can LEGALY let him use a pistol of mine while on the range. That and if he has any other LEGAL ways to purchase a pistol. I know that it is a Grey area, and I am only involved enough to inform him on what he can do.

Also, I am pretty sure that in Wisconsin you can own a pistol at age 18. The problem is you can't legaly buy it from a FFL dealer.

RNB65
October 10, 2006, 08:45 PM
The 21 age limit is a federal law which only applies to guns sold by FFL licensed dealers. It does not apply to private sales. In many (most?) states, anyone over 18 can own a handgun. Check the gun laws in your state for the ownership age and then check the local papers for folks selling guns.

Jim K
October 10, 2006, 08:48 PM
The federal law prohibits licensees from selling a handgun to any person under 21. Private sales are controlled by state law, so if your state law permits, he could buy a handgun legally from you or someone else in the state. Check state and local laws, though; many states have the same restrictions as federal law.

I second the advice to NOT get sucked into a "straw man" purchase; that way lies trouble.

Jim

GregGry
October 10, 2006, 08:50 PM
948.60(2)(b)
(b) Except as provided in par. (c) , any person who intentionally sells, loans or gives a dangerous weapon to a person under 18 years of age is guilty of a Class I felony.



Ok since he is 19, then I guess I could legaly loan him a pistol on a range, since I see no mention of 18+

It does not apply to private sales. In many (most?) states, anyone over 18 can own a handgun. Check the gun laws in your state for the ownership age and then check the local papers for folks selling guns.

Ok thats what I have heard before. As far as I can tell there is no state law in Wisconsin that says someone thats 19 years old can't own a handgun. I know he can't buy from a FFL. I didn't want to tell him he could buy from private party, and then have that be illegal.

I second the advice to NOT get sucked into a "straw man" purchase; that way lies trouble.
Trust me, I am not going to do anything illegal. If I was going to do something illegal, I wouldn't be here asking for advice on how my friend can legaly purchase a firearm.

PlayboyPenguin
October 10, 2006, 08:56 PM
I did buy a handgun for my nephew who cannot yet buy one. However, it was a legitimate gift that I paid for myself and then put into his grandfather's name until he is old enough to put it in his name.

kirkcdl
October 10, 2006, 09:06 PM
As far as Federal law goes,the way I understand it,under 21 can own all the handguns he/she wants,they just can't buy one through a dealer.As far as buying from private parties,state law prevails.He can also be gifted a handgun and become the legal owner...However...make sure in any encounters he/she might have with Law Enforcement Officers that he/she understands the officer may not know this,and will probably act on the side of caution,that is,arrest and confiscate.Just be prepared for that possibility...

GregGry
October 10, 2006, 09:15 PM
Ok thanks for the information.

The only thing I don't understand, is the ammo issue. I know that he legaly can't buy ammo from a FFL dealer. Since any place around here that sells ammo also is a FFL dealer, I don't see how it would be possible for him to buy ammo without having his parents buy it for him..

cncguns
October 10, 2006, 10:26 PM
Possession
No state permit is required to possess a rifle, shotgun, or handgun. It is unlawful for a minor (a person under 18) to go armed with a handgun or for any person to sell, lend, or give a handgun to a minor. This does not apply to target shooting when the minor is under the supervision of an adult. It is unlawful for any person under 16, unless accompanied by a parent or guardian, to have in his possession or control any firearm. Persons between the ages of 14 and 16 who have a firearms safety certificate are exempt and may possess a firearm while alone. Those with a safety certificate who are between 12 and 14 may possess while accompanied by a parent or guardian.

This is a direct quote of the Wisconsin Possession Law, Hope it helps?

Car Knocker
October 10, 2006, 10:28 PM
GregGry,

I don't believe that there is a federal law that would prohibit any adult from buying handgun ammo and giving it to an underage person who can legally own a handgun.

I know that he legaly can't buy ammo from a FFL dealer.
To clarify, a person between the age of 18 and 21 can legally buy ammunition for a rifle or shotgun (unless state law precludes). If he possesses a handgun-caliber rifle, it is legal for him to buy ammo for it (a Camp-9 carbine, for example, or a HighPoint .40 carbine).

GregGry
October 10, 2006, 10:36 PM
Ok thanks again. I messed up and didn't include handgun ammo in that previous post. I know rifle ammo can be bought without a issue by someone under 21.

Sunray
October 10, 2006, 10:43 PM
"...can LEGALLY let him use a pistol of mine while on the range..." Sure. He's there as your guest. You just can't buy a handgun for him. You're not doing that anyway. WI says no firearms for under 18's without mom or pop being there. Your buddy isn't under 18. No big deal. You have to deal with Federal law too though.
Isn't it odd how governments will happily enlist an 18 year old for military service, but won't let the same 18 year old drink or own a handgun?

phonesysphonesys
October 10, 2006, 10:49 PM
It seems you are missing the point. His parents do not want him to have a handgun PERIOD. I would stay far away from this situation. I would advise him to wait until he is 21 and then he can do as he likes. It also keeps your butt out of a sling. Take him shooting and let him use your stuff.

Semper Fi

trainwreck100
October 10, 2006, 10:56 PM
The two things you could do would be to look at the NRA-ILA's website, they have state by state laws, or you could go to the sheriff's office or range where you'd be shooting and ask what would happen if you did what you're describing...since you own it, and he only gets to play at the range, I see no problem with it...but things are different out here where the range is the wheat field outside the back door.

Greg

GregGry
October 10, 2006, 11:05 PM
His parents originally agreed that they would buy him a handgun, provided he stored the gun someplace other then the house. I told him I wouldn't want a firearm that I couldn't have in my posession at all times. Realitically I will probably just tell him to wait, and that he can use mine on the range.

kd7nqb
October 10, 2006, 11:07 PM
In most states you can legally transfer it to him after purchasing. Also I am *not* advocating this but if he orders ammo online UPS puts a little ID required sticker but rarely if EVER cards.

MachIVshooter
October 11, 2006, 12:47 AM
In most states you can legally transfer it to him after purchasing.

That's called straw purchase and carries a hefty federal sentence.

Only way he could do this would be to gift it, but there can be no exchange of currency, goods or labor here.

That said, if WI law does not specifically prohitbit 18 and up from possession, he can buy one privately. This can be a hazy area, as whether it was a private purchase or a straw purchase is very open to interpretation; the primary factor distinguishing the two being the amount of time the origianl purchaser owned the firearm. If he had it for 7 years, it was clearly private party sale. But if he had it for 7 days, it would likely be prosecuted as a straw purchase.

Eightball
October 11, 2006, 01:07 AM
Is there any way that he can have a pistol of his own? Yes. If whatever handgun is given to him as a gift, it is perfectly legit. Buying one for someone who can't is a straw purchase. If there's something in your collection he enjoys, and you want to give it to him, you can--then go buy something else.

There are no federal laws that say someone between 18 and 21 cannot use/own/operate a handgun; the only laws on the books pertain to persons under the age of 18. HOWEVER, he cannot purchase the pistol or ammunition legally, unless it happens to be for a lever-action (hey, revolver ammo is common) or other longarm.

Tread carefully. I was one of the people to have a revolver given to me at 19, but it was not purchased for me specifically. Its one of those questionable loop hole/grey areas in the law.

salvador31c
October 11, 2006, 03:45 AM
Oh Yes Loop holes in the system. if in your area one can own a hand gun at the age of 18 it is my understanding said person can purchase a hand gun from a private party but not a ffl dealer as federal law states. the ammo is a whole other problem if he orders ammo online UPS puts a little ID required sticker but rarely if EVER cards. but there :scrutiny: are ways around that:what:

When i first wanted a handgun at the age of 18 i did some research asking many police officers and checking as your doing for local laws and found out that i could own and buy a handgun from a private party to my dismay many folks didnt want to sell to me and my mother said no and my father has a slight blemish in his record so when i did find a person to sell me a Handgun leagally i paid a nice private party mark up to say as i still do:fire:


Do check local laws before moving forward

Omaha-BeenGlockin
October 11, 2006, 01:19 PM
Why not get a cool rifle--like say an AR-15---which he can legally own---shoot it and use it in the next year while he saves up for a pistol when he can legally own it too???

TX1911fan
October 11, 2006, 01:30 PM
If the law in that state allows 18 year olds to own handguns, you certainly can sell him one of yours, right? A straw purchase is only if you make a purchase for someone who is not legally permitted to own one. If it is legal for him to own one, then how would your selling a handgun to him be a straw purchase (assuming there are not other reasons he is not permitted to own it).

Now, if you are going to buy the gun he wants just to sell it to him, you may get into trouble with the 4473(?) form, since you have to answer "yes" to the question as to whether you are buying this for yourself or not. Let him look at your guns, and see if there is one he likes. If so, either let him use it when you guys go to the range, or sell it to him. Seems ok to me. Am I wrong?

PlayboyPenguin
October 11, 2006, 01:36 PM
I was told that the law here in Oregon is you cannot sell to anyone who cannot legally "purchase" a firearm. I am trying to sell one of mine so I had to call my local sheriff and ask. Of course they are not always right.

AJ Dual
October 11, 2006, 01:58 PM
He should just wait on the handgun. It sounds like he's only got 13+ months to go. Other than portability/concealability and their cultural mystique, in practical terms of power, accuracy, and range, handguns are inferior devices to long arms in all other respects.

In the meantime, he should focus on a rifle of some kind. Probably just a .22 to get the fundamentals. As others have pointed out, there are also plenty of long guns that have all the "sex appeal" of the handgun if not more. Show him a Kel-Tec Sub2000, or a Beretta CX4 Storm if he dosen't believe you. (He'd have the 21/handgun ammo problem, but if he gets an fill-in Wally-Worlder, he can honestly say "rifle" when they ask, and they'll probably sell 9mm to him, unless he looks extremely young, or dosen't have a "clean cut" look about him…)

Maybe he should look into shooting trap at Boxhorns out in Muskego. They rent shotguns for an extra dollar over the $7 for a non-member to shoot a round of trap. They'll even give you lessons for a $20 donation to the youth program.

If he likes it, he can join a trap leauge, he dosen't need to know anybody, after he gets handicapped, they'll pair him up with people of like ability. They don't even have to shoot together.

I haven't checked recently, but Daniel Boone out by Holy Hill has "vintage military shoots" a few times a year that are open to the public

He would get waxed by the old coots with match-tuned Springfileds, handloads, and, wind meters, but he could still have fun and learn a few things even with a $99 Mosin Nagant from Dunham's… If he says he's a nwebie in advance, someone at Boone should show him the ropes.

I think if he's engaged in some kind of formal shooting activity that's done on a regular basis, like trap or Highpower shoots, and not just into owning a gun because it's "cool", his parents might come around. I think that mildly pro-gun or gun-neutral parents freak out at the idea of a handgun because of the percieved ability to stuff it in a pocket when going out and "getting in trouble", regardless of your personality or level of demonstrated responsibility.

Frankly, if he's living under his parent's roof, even after he's 21 they could forbid him from keeping a firearm, since it's thier house, thier rules, no matter how old he is.

If he can swing it so he's permitted to posess and securely store long-arms under his control at home, gets a few long guns, and at least a $99 Homak cabinet from Dunham's or Wally-World, by the time he's 21, throwing a handgun or two in there shouldn't be much of a problem if he's still living at home.

I didn't tell my parents anything, and I just "exercised my rights" started buying long guns at 18, when they eventualy found out by the time I was 21, they weren't thrilled, but being conservative and gun-neutral, it wasn't the end of the world. One night of minor peevishness on their part, some negotiating, then it never came up again. Since I wanted a new car and needed their co-signature, I agreed to sell a few guns for the down payment, and I went and got a security cabinet for the rest of my guns. Since it was already water under the bridge, after that, I was able to throw whatever I wanted in there until I moved out of the house at 23.

Since his parents were willing, even temporarily, to buy him a handgun, he could probably go this route. If not, he should get started with long guns, and you can store them for him.

Just_a_dude_with_a_gun
October 11, 2006, 02:13 PM
Yeah, you don't want to go there.

http://dts.ystoretools.com/1092/images/250x1000/strawman.jpg

XavierBreath
October 11, 2006, 02:18 PM
He wants a XD40.
He does not want to do a private party sale.
His parents are against him owning a gun.
He still lives at home.
His parents say no gun in the house.

You buy a XD40.
You buy ammo.
You let him shoot your XD40 at the range.

I don't know Greg. That's just bad juju, no matter what the nuances of the laws are. I often teach minors and teens to shoot. I always, always get an OK from the parents. Knowing that there are two adults (his parents) willing and able to complicate your life and endanger your rights to keep and bear arms through civil litigation, no matter how spurious, would make me say no way.

Friends are great to have. Friends will not endanger your freedom for something they want to do or own.

Hanzo581
October 11, 2006, 02:46 PM
agreed, just tell him to wait, no sense getting yourself in trouble just because he does not have patience

knuckles
October 11, 2006, 02:47 PM
If there's something in your collection he enjoys, and you want to give it to him, you can--then go buy something else.


So how long does a gun need to be in your collection before you can give it to someone?

I don't really see how the parents figure into the equation since he is the age of majority other than as XB mentioned that they might make things difficult, except that:

His parents originally agreed that they would buy him a handgun, provided he stored the gun someplace other then the house.

So, his parents are, at least partially, on board not to mention the fact that they were willing to engage in the same activity that our OP has presented. However, Greg has included a somewhat ambiguous (at least me) caveat that:

I told him I wouldn't want a firearm that I couldn't have in my posession at all times.

I am not sure what that means. Perhaps that you will buy the gun, sell it to your friend and keep it at your house?

I don't know, these kinda posts should probably be heavily regulated on the board perhaps, since it asks relative laymen (such as myself) to comment on legal matters where they have no business doing so....

kfranz
October 11, 2006, 02:55 PM
Your friend doesn't need an pistol, he needs to move out on his own.

Justin
October 11, 2006, 05:14 PM
He wants a XD40.
He does not want to do a private party sale.
His parents are against him owning a gun.
He still lives at home.
His parents say no gun in the house.

You buy a XD40.
You buy ammo.
You let him shoot your XD40 at the range.

I don't know Greg. That's just bad juju, no matter what the nuances of the laws are. I often teach minors and teens to shoot. I always, always get an OK from the parents. Knowing that there are two adults (his parents) willing and able to complicate your life and endanger your rights to keep and bear arms through civil litigation, no matter how spurious, would make me say no way.

Friends are great to have. Friends will not endanger your freedom for something they want to do or own.

Xavier's comment is worth repeating, and pretty much covers it all, you're messing around with a situation that has the potential to screw things up for the both of you.

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