Holocaust-gun control-actual #'s


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sonny
May 15, 2003, 03:38 PM
The Holocaust has been a topic at the local gun club lately and it's link to gun control and an asortment of other legal and political topics dealing with this tragic time in world history.
Well...if I know anything I know this is always a touchy subject to discuss but I would like to see.... with the moderators permision if we can discuss the facts on this subject.
How did it happen from the beggining?.....are there any verified numbers of people that died in the Holocaust?.....
I reaize this is sort of an open end question and I hope to learn something if others wish to join in......anyone?

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braindead0
May 15, 2003, 04:18 PM
You could probably find many answers at www.jpfo.org (or course some would say that's one side of the story.

Ian
May 15, 2003, 04:47 PM
How did the Holocaust happen, from the beginning? A whole book would only scratch the surface. Basically, from 1933 (when Hitler was appointed Chancellor) to 1940, Jews were gradually alienated from society by a long series of incremental laws. First they could not hold certain jobs or marry non-Jews, then their citizenship was revoked, and finally they were stripped of possessions. In 1940, the first of several major ghettos were formed and Jews in cities were concentrated in them. By 1941, the Final Solution - plans to exterminate European Jews to the last - had been formulated. The Einsatzgruppen followed the Wehrmacht into Russia, and were tasked with the wholesale executions (by gunshot) of Jews, as well as Communists and other "undesirables." Gas chamber experiments began in 1941, and by 1942 several major death camps (including Belzec, Auschwitz, and Majdanek) were operating. The mass killings continued for several years, and by 1944 some camps were beginning to shut down for lack of victims. You can find a much more detailed chronology here. (http://http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/timeline.html)

There is no exact record of the number of people murdered by the Nazi regime, as such records were not kept by the Germans. Furthermore, death was such a ubiquitous occurance throughout the Nazi system that even if they had attempted to record the number of deaths, it likely would have proved impossible.

The generally accepted estimate of Jewish deaths is between 5.5 and 6 million. The best and most detailed study of total deaths in the Holocaust that I know of is provided in Death By Government (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1560009276/qid=1053026565/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/002-8536721-5359209?v=glance&s=books&n=507846), by R.J. Rummel. Total deaths were probably in excess of 21 million.

As for the links between the Holocaust and gun control and other contemporary issues? There are certainly some important ones.

There can be no doubt that Jews were prohibited from owning weapons. Gun control in Germany, IIRC was begun under the Weimar Republic in the late 20s in the form of a system of gun registration. Hitler took it and expanded it, though I do not know exactly how this was applied to the Jews. They were not a heavily armed group to begin with. By the time serious restrictions were bering enforced against them, exact gun laws were immaterial anyway, as the Gestapo was above the law. In an environment where you could be shot for looking cross-eyed at a Stormtrooper, being found with a weapon was a guaranteed bullet.

However, I am not convinced that mere possession of guns could have saved the Jews. It would have made them a more difficult target, certainly, but not an impossible one. The keystone of the Holocaust was the obediance of the Jews. As a general group, they were convinved that of they just bowed their heads and did what they were told, they would survive somehow. I'm afraid that even if some of them had been armed, the vast majority would have willingly turned in their weapons when requested to do so by the Nazis (I do not mean to imply that there was no resistance - there was more of it than many people think, and much of it was extraordinarily heroic - but only a miniscule fraction of the victims put up such resistance). They never imagined that the Hitler would really be willing to simply exterminate them. At the very least, they believed that they held some value to the Nazis as slave laborers. I did a bit of research on the subject of Jewish resistance, and Oleg was kind enough to post it on his web site (http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/jewsfight.html) (thanks, Oleg!).

We have the advantage of knowing exactly what tyrants are capable of. I hope we can use that knowledge to make better decisions than the Jews (as a group) did.

Don Gwinn
May 15, 2003, 04:48 PM
No, there are no absolute numbers upon which everyone agrees. Most people who put any time in agree that somewhere from 4-8million is reasonable. At one time, the popular figure was 12 million, but new research has shown that was unlikely. Of course, that led a lot of Holocaust deniers to declare that the whole thing must be a fraud. One guy even told me "Last year 12 million Jews were supposed to have died. This year it's 6 million. If it keeps going this way, next year it'll be 3 million and soon it'll be zero.":rolleyes:

Ian
May 15, 2003, 04:51 PM
Heh. If you think the anti-gun propaganda is full of misused statistics and bogus logic, you really ought to read some of the Holocaust denial tripe. :)

Standing Wolf
May 15, 2003, 10:31 PM
Basically, from 1933...

I certainly don't dispute any of your facts, which are consistent with reading I did as a young man, and well presented. Let me merely add that German anti-Semitism of the previous century was merely the culmination of a long, montrous history of European anti-Semitism—and it's not over yet.

sonny
May 15, 2003, 10:57 PM
I would like to know what the highest and lowest figures are on total deaths and from where the statistics came from.
This above all was a major issue in our conversation at the club.
One member "did the math " and came to the conclusion that the 10 million deaths were physically impossible by stating a number of scenerios.
I asked her to show me her sources and she said she would...I would like to have something to show as well when we meet saturday.
By the way....we have a pretty large and diversified group at the ranges I attend including some holocaust survivors and we manage to keep our debates civil even when a subject as touchy as this comes up....believe it or not
:D

Oleg Volk
May 16, 2003, 12:48 AM
Don't forget that several million Chinese and quite a few "soviet" people were murdered by bullet and starvation at the same time. German activities were only a part of the whole sordid picture.

gunsmith
May 16, 2003, 03:14 AM
was so bad,the nazi's were considered nice compared to the japanese...
http://www.tribo.org/nanking/
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140277447/103-5402417-2161443?vi=glance
http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/12.12.96/cover/china3-9650.html
http://www.guntruths.com/Resource/Book%20reviews/rape_of_nanking.htm

12.7x99mm
May 16, 2003, 03:21 AM
Holocaust... Which one?

winwun
May 16, 2003, 08:51 AM
As Ian said, Hitler wanted to have a "pure" race. This called for ridding the population of "Undesireables". Hitler decided who was "Undesireable". It wasn't only the jews, it was ANYONE who didn't fit the "ideal". Romanys (gypsies), blacks, cripples, he wanted rid of them all.

I have never read anything about the german prison population and how the "holocaust" affected them. Anyone have any info on this aspect?

Historically, the Jews have always been hated by the general population. Tuchman, in A Distant Mirror, details how, in the dark ages, a dissatisfied population would occasionally go Jew hunting.

Strangely, it has apparently created a reversal of the "take-it-and-shut-up" attitude of the Nazi years. The jews are now very agressive, very "strike-first". I guess recognizing that the survival of the race calls for it, it is no surprise.

matis
May 16, 2003, 11:06 AM
Very excellent reply, Ian.


Winwun,

Jews may have developed a strike-first attitude politically. But when it comes to the 2nd amendment -- they still don't get it.

As Ian points out, Jewish gun ownership may not have averted the holocaust -- because of the Nazis highly organized commitment to total annihilation of the Jews. But the holocaust was a culmination of 2000 years of scapegoating and Jew-hatred.

Although attacks against Jews have occured since our dispersion and some were of very large scale -- e.g. Jews forced en mass out of England, Spain and other countries -- most depredations against the Jews, have been of a scale where weapons ownership could indeed have prevented or at least ameliorated them.


I am proud to live in a country that has treated its Jews better than any other in history. I am, nevertheless, aware of the history of the Jews as perennial "strangers in a strange land".

In an earlier post I quoted the author of a text-book for commodities trading as saying, "...never buck a trend."

I took that advice to heart. I don't buck a 2000 year old trend.

My fascination with guns and my defence of 2nd amendment rights has far more to do with this trend than it does with the existence of other kinds of human predators.

Far too many Jews are liberal and anti-gun. They seem to have learned the wrong lesson from their own history.

Instead of realizing that ONLY they themselves can assure their safety, an attitude the Israelis well understand, most American and other diaspora Jews have learned to detest and abhor violence. And using guns for self-defence -- this they include in their definition of violence.

JPFO (Jews for the Protection of Firearms Ownership) is a wonderful organization, but they represent only a tiny fraction of American Jews.



It is very encouraging to me to encounter the posts of other gun-nut Jews on THR, but we've got our work cut out for us if we are to spread sanity among our fellow Jews.


Matis

Ian
May 16, 2003, 11:39 AM
Thanks, matis.

Standing Wolf - You're absolutely right. And the sentiments of the time weren't limited to Europe; Jews weren't a popular bunch here either.

12.7x99mm - There have been many genocides, but the label 'Holocaust' applies specifically to the Nazi-backed killings.

sonny - If it's numbers you want, find a copy of Rummel's Death By Government. Rummel is a history professor at the U of Hawaii, and the premise of his study is that the historic role of government includes not just the warm fuzzy things that civics textbooks talk about, but also murder of citizens. After introducing that thesis, the book becomes a very detailed statistical study of all the major democides in recent times (Communist China, Nationalist China, Communist Russia, Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, Cambodia, Armenia, and so on). It's an excellent study, and exhaustively researched.

FWIW, the individuals murdered by their governments in the 20th century alone would populate a nation between the US and Brazil in size.

moa
May 16, 2003, 07:13 PM
Something that has always puzzled me is why over the centuries in so many lands Jews have been often dispised and sometimes persecuted?

In some instances Jews flourished in environments that you would think not likely like Islamic Spain and a very Christian Germany of the Middle Ages and later.

Anybody have any insight on this?

Something that is most curious about the Nazis is that it appears virtually all their major concentration camps were also major armament production facilities that relied quite a bit on slave labor. You would think it would have been in the Nazi's best interest to utilize the camp inmates as slaves versus killing them off en masse.

But then again the Nazis were in a dreamworld. They did not even acknowledge they were engaged in a "total" war until 1943. They maintained near peacetime production of non-military commodities up to that point until Albert Speer became Armaments Minister. Speer could not believe what was going on when he took over. And Speer was as close to Hitler's buddy as you could get at that time.

Ewok
May 16, 2003, 08:02 PM
Something that has always puzzled me is why over the centuries in so many lands Jews have been often dispised and sometimes persecuted?The documentary Heritage: Civilization and the Jews (http://www.pbs.org/wnet/heritage/) gives a good introduction to the Jewish perspective on this.

winwun
May 16, 2003, 09:06 PM
What I think is truly pathetic is the "deal" struck by the vatican with the nazis and U. S. to keep quiet about the holocaust. With the Catholic church coming clean about past transgressions in a number of areas, perhaps this will be admitted to and apologized for also. It would be nice to know ALL the truth instead of the bits and pieces being leaked out.

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