Armor piercing ammo in the North Hollywood shootout


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jagdpanzer347
October 11, 2006, 02:33 PM
Does anybody know if the bandits in this shootout had true AP ammo? I must have heard the term "armor piercing" at least six times while watching Shootout last night. I'm willing to bet it was mild steel core Norinco or it's equivalant. Anybody have the definitive answer?

-jagdpanzer

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SoCalShooter
October 11, 2006, 02:42 PM
Media hype i believe. My understanding from "real" reports is that it was standard off the shelf ammo, nothing special. A round from most AK's is going to be armor piercing most police body armor that I have seen (and shot at) has only stopped up to a .44spcl.


*Side note* had an opportunity to shoot at my friends body armor cause he was replacing it with dragon, the army stopped a .44spcl but a 30-06 round went right through it.

Rev. DeadCorpse
October 11, 2006, 02:55 PM
Most rifle ammo will defeat Level III-A body armor. That's 30 layers of Kevlar 129. III-A is rated to stop a .44 magnum at 1400fps, but most rifle ammo (other than rimfire) starts at about 1700 fps and goes up from there. Level III will supposedly stop a 7.62x51 (standard .308). Source table (http://www.bulletproofme.com/NIJ_Test_Rounds_CHART.shtml)

My Witness 10mm shooting 135gr HP with a "hot" load chrono's at 1720fps +/- a few fps.

Trauma plates are ballistic steel or exotic ceramic and have individual ratings based on penetration of various rounds.

True AP ammo has a steel or tungsten penetrator designed to defeat light armor. Some Eastern bloc mil-surp ammo is steel cored. SS109 was the US Mil-spec designation for steel cored 62gr .223 rounds.

If anyone can spot any errors in any of the above, please point it out to me will ya'? :)

Gah!!! Spelling Nazi's!!!! ;)

History Prof
October 11, 2006, 03:15 PM
If anyone can spot any errors in any of the above, please point it out ot me will ya'? Just in the last line.:neener: Sorry, I couldn't resist. Been reading lots of papers the past week....

hso
October 11, 2006, 03:25 PM
Agreed. Media hype, or stupidity.

Chinese AK ammo had a mild steel core and was not AP.

Shooter973
October 11, 2006, 05:39 PM
The media almost always portrays any Full Metal jacket ammo as Armor piercing ammo. They don't know the difference and don't care to be very accurate about such things!!!:banghead:
As stated above most regular soft point rifle ammo will penetrate a bullet resistant vest, let alone FMJ's.

Cromlech
October 11, 2006, 05:39 PM
Yeah, this is the media we are talking about. They seem to think every Tom, Dick and Harry has access to 'cop killer' ammunition that has the AP properties of top-spec military stuff, as well as the expanding properties of hollowpoints. :rolleyes:

Your HP ammo = COP KILLA O NOES! :eek:

Your so called 'AP' ammo = COP CAR/APC KILLA O NOES! :what:

moewadle
October 11, 2006, 06:30 PM
two nights ago on The History Channel or if you had not seen it previously I see by my TV schedule that SHOOTOUT will be broadcast again on the History Channel on Thursday, tomorrow, Oct 12 at 10 PM Central Time. I had missed it so I am going to watch it and wanted to let you all know.

ArmedBear
October 11, 2006, 06:36 PM
most police body armor that I have seen (and shot at)

Uh...:evil:

gezzer
October 11, 2006, 09:57 PM
7.62x39 penetrates 99% of police armor so does the 30/30 therefore to the media they ARE armor piercing. Police officers they interview who are usually NON-experts agree or push that agenda.

MartinBrody
October 11, 2006, 11:46 PM
Don't know the facts on armor piercing, but the news coverage I have seen refers to the police being outgunned. You later see an armored police vehicle tearing down a shack looking for them and police snipers on roofs.

By the way, it was a bunch of cops wearing shorts and vests rolling up in a cruiser with guns blazing out the window that stopped the 2nd shooter (the 1st commited suicide). How could they be outgunned, I'm sure they had a heck of a SWAT team complete with M-16s & MP-5s. Probably the same deal as columbine, the first on the scene were waiting for SWAT but could not contain the subjects. With all those shotguns I can't believe no one got a headshot. Maybe the police were concerned with their backstop and didn't want any more lead flying around.

ndh87
October 11, 2006, 11:55 PM
to the media every long guns is an AK, and any bullet is AP. its not their fault, they're just all morons....they dont know the difference.

MudPuppy
October 12, 2006, 12:33 AM
I too was curious about the repeated reference to armor piercing ammo on the History Channel's Shootout show.

Does anyone know what they were using? (ammo wise?)

DirtyBrad
October 12, 2006, 12:54 AM
Thanks for the heads up on the next airing. DVR set.

I was just reading about this the other day and was also surprised about the lack of head shots. The article I read made it seem like any cop that did anything was immediately pinned down by the robbers. But it also said there were like a zillion cops. Seems weird that no one had a chance to take a good aimed shot from cover.

Don't mean to Monday morning QB, just not clear on the situation. I hope the show proves educational.

gak
October 12, 2006, 04:31 AM
My guess is none of the cops had much experience (who does?) of being shot at by fully automatic weapons, so they were finding cover rather then exposing and trying for aimed shots. I'd only feel safe in an Abrams.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

RioShooter
October 12, 2006, 07:38 AM
to the media every long guns is an AK, and any bullet is AP. its not their fault, they're just all morons....they dont know the difference.

In this case, they were using AK's. They also had drum magazines. One more thing, they were modified to fire full-auto.

The first responders were definitely out-gunned. IIRC, it was at least 30 minutes before SWAT arrived.

MechAg94
October 12, 2006, 09:39 AM
I didn't see it so I am not sure if this is the same incident as talked about before. I imagine the cops were forced to maintain some distance from the shooters, and their pistols/shotguns were not effective at that distance. Were the shooters wearing helmets?

I have suggested before that some LEO's ought to carry 30-30 lever guns as backup rifles in their cars instead of shotguns. I think that would be much more effective. I guess that is assuming their can't afford M16's for everyone. 30-30's are much cheaper easier to use IMHO.

lysander
October 12, 2006, 10:24 AM
At the same time HC was running this "Shootout" show, MSNBC was running a one hour docu-newsy-magaziny show on the North Hollywood shootout. They described the AP ammo as having an "extra sharp tip" and a "steel core" because it was designed to destroy tanks, artillery and aircraft.

....I guess I now understand why they want all those AK type rifles banned.

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