[Lone Star]

Handgunners often ask, "Which is the best handgun for bear defense?"

Be advised that the new issue of, "The Rifle" has an article by an Alaskan guide who's actually shot some big bears with revolvers.
He favors an S&W M629 Mountain Gun, and his daughter carries an S&W M65 .357. Penetration from either is adequate, with careful selection,which he details. Bullet placement is naturally vital!

He advises against HP's in .44 Magnum, as one he fired into a dead bear penetrated only some six inches. He points out that that same bullet would be devastating in a deer's chest!

This issue also contains the second part of Brian Pearce's discussion of Elmer Keith's and Skeeter Skelton's sixguns and favored loads. I think Pearce is our best all-round gun writer, and those who liked Elmer and Skeeter will love the photos. Even has one of Keith's old house near Durkee, OR. Has also a pre-war S&W .357 photo.

The more I consider today's gun magazines, the more I like, "Rifle" and its sister title, "The Handloader". (This does not necessarily endorse everything that John Barsness says about optics in these publications. I think he's somewhat prejudiced against German makers, and avoids pointing out they generally have cleaner internal construction than Japanese makers, and that binocular focus mechanisms are generally smoother and more "solid" feeling on Zeiss or Leica than on Jap brands, even the best ones. Tirade over, but he galls me sometimes with this stuff...)

Lone Star
P.S. IMPORTANT: I goofed: the magazine with the articles described is the June, "Handloader". See my post below, too.

[braindead0]

I prefer reading 'The High Road', at least then I can complain directly to the authors ;-)....

[braindead0]

Oh, and back on the subject.. I'll be out in the woods this summer, and I'll be carrying GP100 with 180gr FMJ moving plenty fast. I figure the 180gr FMJ's should provide sufficient penetration. If I had a 44 I'd probably load up some hardcast Keith lead bullets..

[sw442642]

This issue has been discussed at length on TFL. The most knowledgeable poster with Keith Rogan, IIRC.

The bottom line was that handguns are iffy but he recommended some very specific loads that might be OK.

[Lone Star]

I made an error above. The articles described are really in, "Handloader" for June. Because it's so similar to, "Rifle" and uses the same writers, my memory failed me.

I tried to economize and skip buying a magazine that probably wouldn't say anything that I didn't already know, but went back to Border's today and bought a copy.

Yes, the topic has been discussed here and in probably every gun magazine on the market. But this guide has actually shot handgun bullets into big bears, which most scribes tackling the subject haven't. Thus, and because the topic has wide appeal, I posted here.

Lone Star

[Brian Williams]

A nice DA 22 lr so I can knee cap the fella next to me and leave him as bear bait........:D



Somebody had to say it........:) :rolleyes:


I would carry my Taurus tracker in 45 LC loaded with 255 gr LSWC pushed by way to much 2400 powder it is only five rounds and if some "huge" Eastern PA black bear is chasing me I will not care if my Taurus shoots loose....


The Tracker is very accurate and packs like a K frame Smith

[Frohickey]

Since no one else has said it, I will.

The revolver you want for bear defense is one without a front sight. That way, it won't hurt as much when the bear shoves it up the nether region. :p

[Gordon]

Well Mountain Gun .44 ,unless out hunting bear then, a .454 Super Redhawk with aimpoint. In .44 Mag I was a believer in 300XTP load but I read a thread on a PROFESSIONAL bear 'control officer' who swears that 240XTP causes the bear more instantaneous pain than any other load. He says they forget about you and 'bite at wound' with 240xtp and they don't do that with any other load as consistently. That said I have a lot of 300xtp to use up!I have only shot a couple black bear with a .44 mag. and they died like a deer.:)

[SteelyDan]

Well, there are bears, and then there are brown bears. Around here we have plenty of the blackies, and I feel pretty darn comfortable with a .44. But if I were going camping or fishing or hiking or whatever in the brownies' turf, I'd want something bigger. Or, at the very least, some hot-loaded .44 cartridge by Garrett or the other folks who make the hot loads.

[Lone Star]

The guide in, "Handloader" said that a 180 grain Norma FMJ .357 killed one bear with a strike in the spine. He doesn't favor the very heavy bullets in .44, as they slow repeat shots, and they seem unnecessary for penetration.

This is a worthy article that I'm glad I read.

I know of one grizzly in a park that was mauling a game warden, who killed it with an S&W M66 and "issued" 158 grain ammo, but don't know the brand. The effective round was the last of six that he "panic shot" into the chest as he lay under the bear.

The big Kodiak browns are much bigger. A .44 HP fired into a dead bear went in only about six inches. The Keith load seems good, and other solutions are in the article. The writer is a fellow named Shoemaker, who has guided several "name" gun writers, including the late Finn Aagard.

Lone Star

[munk]

I saw the film where the grizzly was being released, something went wrong, the ranger was on top of him instead of on top of the cage, and killed him with a 357

Full metal jacket stuff is not supposed to work with Brown bear- the jackets are too thin and the bullets deform.

Solids are the way to go- hard lead.

I would not use a Hornady 300 xtp or any controlled expansion bullet. But if that was what I had-

A 240 gr xtp might make the bear stop and bite at himself, or it might make him very angry at you. A couple anedotal events do a practise make.

Even people who've had to actually stop a bear have only their one or even several experiences to relate. They all agree the griz and brown are savage and unpredicatable.

There is a huge difference between hunting a bear with a revolver and stopping a charge. Even Smith's new 500 with 2500 fpe is less than I'd want to stop. By half.

when you are in trouble with a bear it is usually sudden- one is charging out of nowhere or a paw just reached around the bush. Many people state all you will get is one hurried shot at a blurred mass of fur.

That said, I read one writer who stated before Canadian Guides were forbidden to carry handguns many preferred the Ruger Single action in 41. Because it penetrated deep and the slightly less recoil from the 44 enabled a quicker second shot.

When I am in Griz land I carry the largest projectile weight for calibre I can. But I really have to wonder if in a crisis it will matter much if you had a 41, 45 Colt, 44, or even a 454.

Like most of you, Bear threads are interesting, I own a book on the subject and have kept many articles over the years, but have never had to deal with a bear. I did once play my harmonica for a young Black bear.

I tend to agree with those persons who have and say they will never again go into an area with Griz that does not allow them to be armed.

munk

[Quantrill]

I was told a story by Frank McGee (then C.O. of the NYPD Firearms Unit), about a rookie cop whose first assignment was patrol in the Bronx Zoo. The young officer knew only what he had been taught about guns in his police training. He carried a S&W model 10 with 158gr RN lead factory bullets. The young cop hears screams and runs over to the Polar Bears (BIG BEARS) and finds a mature male Polar Bear mauling a child (Pretty dumb kid if you ask me) who had crawled over (under) the bars. Not knowing that his service revolver was of little use for killing Polar Bears, he shot the bear once. DEAD, one shot, end of bear. Two morals to this (true) story: The Bronx Zoo gets really upset when anybody kills one of their bears, and don't be too surprised what factory .38sp RNL bullets can do. Quantrill

[stevelyn]

I live in the heart of big bear country and we have to deal with them every summer. I can't tell you how massive and powerful these animals are. I watched one place a paw on a dumpster and effortlessly push it down and grab a bag of trash. I tried to move the dumpster myself and could barely move it.
A handgun is marginal for a bear defense situation. They work fine if you can pick your shot and place the bullet where it needs to be. But with a charge you are much better off with a big bore rifle or a shotgun loaded with Brennekes.
However, that being said, if you have to rely on a revolver in .44 Mag. at least stoke it with the Garrett or Buffalo Bore loads or a similar homecooked recipe. These things are hot and nasty and can give you an edge over other off the shelf ammo.

[munk]

stevelyn; you make a lot of sense. Hey, you may want to examine whether or not to use a line from a character Danny Glover was in a film. His work in the Lethal Weapon series of movies is less than flattering to the NRA and the right to keep and bear arms.



munk

[stevelyn]

Munk,

I know Danny Glover is an A-1 leftist that opens is mouth quite often and confirms for the rest of us he dosen't know anything, but it is a cool line. I am looking for another one though.

[Wildalaska]

If I cant have a rifle or shotgun with buckshot I carry a Hi Cap 9mm...thats the one..

Face it if mr bear chages you from 20 feet away, unless you are in a tactical ready situation you aint gettin a shot off...

If he is making bluff charges 50 yards away, at least you have enough rounds to pop a few at his feet to scare him off.

You are not going to kill a charging brown bear with a handgun. Everytime I seea tourist with a 475 Linebaugh (long barrel) for bear protection, I laugh.

Now gimme a short barreled Marlin in 50 Alaskan with 450 grain kodiaks or 45/70-457 with 350 grain kodiaks and Im ready.

WildbiggunsisbetterAlaska

[munk]

Stevlyn; I'll keep my eyes peeled.



munk

[stevelyn]

This was found lurking in my inbox tonight and only reconfirms my original post on HGs for bear defense. Just be aware that the photos you are about to see are rather gruesome.

http://www.guned.com/pages/bear.htm

[Wildalaska]

Steve that stuff is an internet hoax (but great for scaring outsiders):D

WildiditopenseasonontouristsyetAlaska

[5pins]

Whenever this subject comes up I refer to this article in Handloder magazine.
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=627&id=48

[munk]

That's a pretty good article, 5pins, I mean, he says the same thing as myself so it must be good, right?

I will take a little nit pick though- he takes special attention to note the 44 special is more powerful than the .41 mag with a hand load of a 250 gr bullet at 1250fps. Since Federal makes a FACTORY load in the 41, never mind all the handloads, that does the same thing with a bullet of greater sectional density I must say; NAY


But that reminded me of what a friend used to say; if suitable guns had been available for the .44 Special there never would have been a .41 Underated cartridges both.

munk

[DeadCalm]

Well, I don't mean to sound like a wus, but many around here--in Montana where some of the best pepper spray was developed--say that your odds are better with the spray than any long gun or handgun. The author of "Bear Attacks" and a few other researchers (real interviews with real bear encountees and real forensic investigation, not someone blowing spray up a rat's nostrils) earnestly recommend pepper spray over a firearm. Nothing's 100% but the odds seem to favor the non-lethal alternative. The side benefit is that the bear gets to live and you don't have to explain to your state FW&P why you killed a grizz. Those folks can cause you a lot of time, grief, money, and licenses. Just a thought.
Ross

[munk]

Pepper spray better than a long gun? Baloney.

The problem with pepper spray is the effects are unpredictable. I think I've read most all bear literature around- like many here- it is such an interesting topic-

Better than a long gun??!! I'm certain many politically motivated foresters would like you to use pepper spray. Better than a dead bear.

I can see a handgun, or longun and pepper spray.

munk

[5pins]

Here is some more interesting info from Brian Pearce in the July 2002 issue.

More on Bears and Handguns

In Handloader No. 213, I wrote an article titled “Handguns for Bear Protection.” After seeing the article, a reader forwarded a most interesting story about a lady who recently stopped a grizzly charge at just a few feet with a .44 Magnum revolver.
We will refer to her as ”Ms. M.” It seems her line of work takes her to remote areas of Alaska, so she took a defensive bear safety course from Joe Nava, who has taught this class for over 40 years. Many of his 6,000 students have included state and federal employees. Apparently the class combines common sense things to do to prevent attacks, but in the event an attack occurs, students receive firearms (handgun and shotgun) training so they have a chance to survive.

Ms. M had purchased a .44 Magnum revolver and carried it in a hip holster on her right side. She practiced drawing and firing it as fast as she could and even “point and shoot in the event she did not have time to aim the gun precisely.” Practice sessions were extensive with the gun loaded and empty.
While working in a rather brushy area, with a notebook in hand, a large grizzly made a charge from the nearby brush. Ms. M dropped her notebook and began backing up as she drew her .44 Magnum and quickly fired. There was only time for one shot, and the bear fell dead between the dropped notebook and her feet. The bullet had passed through the skull of the bear.

After skinning the bear and turning the hide over to the Fish & Game Department (which is the law), Ms. M stated she believed the bear safety course saved her life. I may add that her mindset (she didn’t panic) and long practice sessions with her .44 Magnum are what really paid off.

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=748&id=56

[Frohickey]

I'm sure you've heard this story (http://www.gearreview.com/gearfaq/bearwarning.asp).

To some extent none of these insures you won't have a problem. The old joke is that the Ranger tells the tourist that to avoid Grizzlies you should wear bells and use pepper spray if one attacks. Make lots of noise if your see grizzly scat, he continues, but don't worry if you see brown bear scat.

"How do you know if its grizzly or brown bear scat?", asks the tourist.

"The grizzly bear scat will have small bells in it and smell like pepper," says the ranger.

According to the link, brown bears might be attracted to pepper spray.
:what:

[Ala Dan]

Greeting's All-

I have been evading this question, cuz I don't think
any handgun caliber is adequate for bear's;
especially old griz!:) However, if out in the woods
and confronted by a mad bear (any type) and all
I had was a handgun; I would want my Smith &
Wesson .44 magnum 5" barrel, 629-5 "Classic".
Perhaps with one good, well placed shot old griz
would coming tumbling down!:D :rolleyes:

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[Poohgyrr]

Steve,

We passed those pictures around at work recently. Afterwards, I decided the absolute best rifle for big bears is whatever shoots the biggest bullets at the highest velocity. Then take three or four friends along, and everyone gets one of those rifles.

I've always thought a good handgun for big bears is a J frame .38. Just what you might want to end it all real quick...

:(

[munk]

We're used to dealing with certainties. When the 4 point Whitetail Buck is shot with a 30.06, and the 165 grain bullet enters his lung heart area; he dies.

As Ala Dan said, no handgun cartridge is a reliable stopper for bear. Many of them duplicate the power of blackpowder cartridges and rifles used in the settling of the West. Many of them are more powerfull. Certainly a Prospector in 1878 handed a Ruger Blackhawk 44 mag would be ecstatic once he realized how powerfull the gun was. (and we really should drop a case of ammo along with the gun, as he won't be able to make any more.) Those men met bears with much less.

An African heavy cartridge is called for to stop Brown bears.

But a 44 or 41 or 45 Colt can work. There is a good chance they will work. But I don't know if that's 70/30, 60/40, or 50/50. So when people talk of these rounds being woefully inadequate they mean you could die.

You might die if you had a 375 H&H in your hand at the ready before the attack.

What I am saying, is after all the reading of experts done in the lifetime of a shooting sports enthusiast, I don't think it matters whether you have a 44 or 45 Colt. I think it matters only a little bit more if you have a 454 Casul. I wouldn't bet on it mattering too much more if you had a 30/40 Krag. Somewhere around the 3006 level I think things improve. 338 is starting to get even better.

If you had the best biggest rifle in the world you could still die in a sudden grizzly attack. A conventional big bore revolver cartridge is your chance to live.


munk

[braindead0]

Perhaps a .577 t-rex pistol would do the job.. you'd probably break your arm.. but it beats being dead!

[355sigfan]

You are not going to kill a charging brown bear with a handgun. Everytime I seea tourist with a 475 Linebaugh (long barrel) for bear protection, I laugh.
END

I laugh when I see some nut in the woods with a 9mm when bears are around. A hot loaded six gun can stop a bear if your shot is well placed. A 9mm has little chance of anything other than lessening your own suffering if you remember to save one for yourself.
PAT

[Thumper]

My parents have a cabin in the middle of bear county and I get to go up there a pretty good bit.

When I'm out knocking around, my carry gun changes to a .45 Colt Blackhawk loaded with unprintable loads (Thanks, Mr. Linebaugh).

I realize that if I get between momma and cubs, however, it's all pretty much wishfull thinking.

[JShirley]

When I was planning on moving up to Alaska (before the 9-11 incident occurred), I was looking for a handgun powerful enough to use for bear defense, but compact enough to be concealable. I found such an arm in a 3" bl Smith 657.

I think we can all agree that no sidearm is the preferred choice vs large bruin, but a large caliber handgun with good loading beats the hell out of a dirty look and a prayer.

John

[munk]

It has to be better than playing dead.




munk

[JShirley]

"I'll play dead when I'm out of ammo."
John Shirley

[munk]

that works.



You get a good chance, that's all, not a certain outcome. My bear paranoia loads are in 41, 44, and 45 Colt.

You ever noticed everyone has a bear load, even in the San Gabriels outside of LA?

We need to start a thread on Cougar loads. Yeppers.




munk

[Wildalaska]

I laugh when I see some nut in the woods with a 9mm when bears are around.

I laugh when people refer to others who have mad an educted choice as "nuts"

Whatever:barf:

[355sigfan]

I laugh when people refer to others who have mad an educted choice as "nuts"

Whatever
END

That’s funny you laughed at the tourist who obviously made a wise educated (not educted) in caring a big bore six-gun. Anchorage is not exactly wild Alaska. Come to the bush if you want to see the real Alaska. Not trying to start a war but its funny how you don't like it when the shoe is on the other foot.

PAT

[stevelyn]

Poohgyrr,

I couldn't agree with you more.

[Gordy Wesen]

Yea Baby:

http://www.wildwestguns.com/CoPilot_And_Guide_Rifles/body_copilot_and_guide_rifles.html

[gunsmith]

In the Catskill mtn resort area.
A Cop shot it (way to late)
by shooting all of his .40sw he had in his
glock.
The baby's mom screamed,a crowd of new yorkers
banged pots and made noise,making the
bear run faster with the infant in it's mouth.
I was living in NYCity when the kid climbed into
they polar bear tank at central park zoo
if my memory serves me well the cop had a
hi cap 9mm that he used to kill 2 polar bears
(I guess no one told him you can't do that);)
What I remember most about that incident
was everyone in the media was against the cop
who tried to save the 10 yr old kid:fire:

[gunsmith]

you don't need to be in AK to worry
about bears
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/bear020820.html
Witnesses reported seeing the young bear with the baby in its mouth as it ambled into dense woods 20 feet from the bungalow.
Isaac Abraham, a community leader from Brooklyn, said people desperately tried to save the girl. "People started chasing the bear, throwing rocks at it," he said. ...
I am still looking for the central park incident

[gunsmith]

http://www.igorilla.com/gorilla/animal/2002/bears_calif_fire.html

[gunsmith]

Kristy L. Abbott, 27, of Harrisburg, Ore., has returned to work at American Safari Cruises, according to her father, Ralph Abbott, speaking from his home in Harrisburg. She could not be reached for comment.

Abbott told troopers that she was jogging on Petersburg Mountain Trail about 5 p.m. Wednesday when she saw a black bear ahead. She stopped and sounded a portable air horn, but the bear charged.
http://www.igorilla.com/gorilla/animal/2002/black_bear_anchorage.html
:rolleyes:

[Gordon]

Kristy would have been better off with my 629 mountain revolver with 300grain Hornady XTP ammo in it!:evil:

[Poohgyrr]

Don't they use silver bells anymore ??

[Frohickey]

The bear eventually dropped the New York City infant, but she had severe injuries to her head and neck, and was pronounced dead at Ellenville Hospital, said Fallsburg Police Chief Brent Lawrence.

Its time to ban bears. Do it for the children!!!!

[munk]

No, but because of the actions of a few bad bears, all the bears will now have to register their teeth.




munk

[foghornl]

Just to be Mr. Wise N. Hiemer here...

////smarmy mode on

revolver for bear defense? Ahnold's GE mini-gun from "Predator"

////smarmy mode off

[Dwayne Russell]

Since no one else has said it, I will.

The revolver you want for bear defense is one without a front sight. That way, it won't hurt as much when the bear shoves it up the nether region. :p

When most mauling survivors are interviewed they all say the same thing. "It happend so fast I couldn't do a thing". I used to laugh about that until my neighbor of 26 years was attacked by a bear while clearing deadfall. He said he removed the axe from his pack horse and had walked over to the fallen tree. Slipping his rifle from his shoulder he rested it against the tree as he was about to cut. He heard a noise above him and before he could drop his axe the bear was nearly on top of him. The bear came flying down the hill and got snagged on some deadfall and tripped. He then slammed hard into the downed tree between them. Even stunned he then lunged back into the bush and was gone before John could even reach his rifle. And it was only 2' away! It happened so fast I never had a chance he said.

Last summer we did a 26 mile pack trip with our horses through the Maccarib Pass in the Canadian Rockies. This is Grizzly country and two hikers had been killed on that very trail by bears. We proceeded very cautiously on that trip and took no chances. On another trip I came across a brown bear cub in a meadow all by itself. It was terribly unnerving backing my horses out of that meadow knowing mom was watching my every step. I had visions of scattered pack animals and a horrible ending for one of us.

I switched from a 6" Dan Wesson .44 to a 5.5" .500 Linebaugh this past year as a packing gun. But realistically I doubt that anyone could get a shot off at a bear with any degree of accuracy. They attack so swiftly that unless you in open country and have some distance between you there is probably no chance of clearing leather, get sighted and hitting your target before he tosses you about like a beer can at the superbowl. Keep in mind these animals can run uphill at speeds near 35 mph. Thats about as fast as a horse can run. The Canadian Grizzly's and Brown bears I have seen have claws bigger than a man's fingers and believe me they are sharp! I usually laugh when someone says forget the .44, carry a .357 so you can get off a second shot!! Yeah Right! Carry Vaseline!!!

Theres probably a 95% chance you would never get a round off. If you do you had better pray it was large in caliber, high velocity, and struck in just right place.

As for me I won't be hanging around waiting to take a shot. I will be too busy making sure there is a hiker, or more tasty backpacker between us.

[MCgunner]

I've often wondered why .357 wouldn't penetrate as well as .44. A long .357 bullet looks to have at least as much sectional density as a 300 grain .44 and the velocities are similar. Sure, the .357 doesn't have either the energy or the bullet diameter, but that seems irrelevant to me since neither caliber has enough on a big bruin on Kodiak Island. Seems sorta like shooting a human with a .25 auto, you pays your money, you takes your chances with either one. I don't think I'd be significantly better gunned with my hot loaded .45 colt against one of those things than my easier to carry .357 with heavy bullets. I'd much rather have a .338 on me. Even my SKS with FMJ ammo and its 20 round magazine would seem preferable and easier to carry than some of those huge revolvers. Sure, the SKS is a pop gun, but aimed fire is easier and you have 20 rounds on tap with mine. I think I'd still wanna save the last round for myself, though.:rolleyes: I don't think there's an easily carried firearm I'd trust to stop a big brownie before it ate me. Bullet placement would be critical. I guess I'll worry about it if I ever get to go fishing on Kodiak Island.

You never see guys up in the arctic in polar bear habitat without a LARGE caliber rifle. Those are the real dangerous bears, actually will hunt you for meat. :uhoh: Even on TV when they're filming up there, they'll be packin' big rifles. Of course, if you were one of the first Americans, you might have had to take on a cave bear with a friggin' spear. Imagine that THAT felt like! :eek:

[tracer]

I went fly fishing in Lewis & Clark in Montana a few summers back.A Bozeman native told us of an accidental release of a single squirt of pepper spray in a building of approximately 3500 square feet.He said within 2 seconds everyone was coughing up lunch,including him.

[Dwayne Russell]

. . . . . . Even my SKS with FMJ ammo and its 20 round magazine would seem preferable and easier to carry than some of those huge revolvers. . . . . .

You know I think there is big misconception about these big bore revolvers. The .500 Linebaugh is built on a single action Ruger frame and is actually quite light. The new Freedom Arms .500 Wyo Express is also very light. And with 4 3/4" to 6" barrels they are hardly what I would call huge. I think if folks had a chance to shoot these guns they would be pleasantly surprised. These new big fifty class revolvers from FA and Linebaugh are really world class packable protection for those who prefer not to carry a high powered rifle. The do recoil sharply but its not unmanagable. My wife shoots one and has no problem handling the recoil.

Over the last couple of years in Cody, WY they ave been testing nearly every round in penetration tests. The 500 Linebaugh was second only to the mighty 45-70! And in a few months we will find out how the new .500 Wyoming Express will rate. With a little practice these guns are actually quite fun to shoot, easy to pack along, and highly effective against dangerous game.

I would never put these two revolvers in the same class as the overweight behemoth that S&W calls their .500 Sadly this round didn't perform well on the penetration tests.

I saw John Linebaugh not long ago and he had this revolver with him. He is calling it the Alaskan. This is a beautiful gun and the grips were spectacular. Light, packable and powerful! Thanks John!

33510