Help with #4 buckshot

[DirtyBrad]

I live in an apartment and have been looking to get some #4 buck for my HD shotgun. Looking for opinions on this vs. reduced recoil 00 and have a couple of questions.

I'm going with #4 because I'm concerned with over penetrating into my neighbors. I'm assuming I need to avoid steel for this reason, but what about nickel plated?

100% of my shotgun experience is with skeet and game loads, so I'm totally green about this stuff. Any other suggestions or thoughts would be much appreciated. Thanks.

[charby]

Not to be a downer but 4 buck will go through a drywall wall from across the room. Most shotshells will do that at that distance. Think of a baseball sized pattern at 12'.

-C

[junyo]

Sure somebody's posted this already but...
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

[silverlance]

is awfully small. why is it sitll called buck? can it actually take down a buck at distances over 5 feet away?

[quatin]

boxotruth suggests birdshot is the only type that won't go through drywall.

[Zundfolge]

boxotruth suggests birdshot is the only type that won't go through drywall.
They also suggest that overpenetration is just something we have to put up with.

But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

also

Notice that the #4 and #1 Buck penetrated 6 boards. In previous tests, 9mm, .45 ACP, and M-193 out of an AR all penetrated all 12 boards.

[Lee Lapin]

For genuine home defense- at ranges measured in mere feet- #4 buck should work. And you have at least a couple of options for reduced recoil loads in #4 as well. No matter what you are shooting, do not expect an instant stop even with a shotgun and buckshot- be prepared to immediately shoot again if necessary.

Ask your apartment manager or the maintenance guys where the firewalls are in your building- could be there is a brick wall already in place but out of sight that will solve your problem for you. But make sure that's the case, whatever they tell you. You wouldn't want to rely on bad info on this one.

If you don't have a firewall where you need it, create one as a backstop for your 'fatal funnel' - that being the area behind and in line with the backlit doorway to your saferoom, where as a tactically astute individual you will be hidden behind cover in the dark with the police on the phone and your white-light equipped shotgun covering the door, waiting for your misguided malintentioned miscreant to appear. In a rented apartment you're limited to nonpermanent barriers, and you will want to maintain some appearance of civility, so something like well constructed bookshelves absolutely loaded with books, magazines etc. will do the job nicely. Perhaps you suddenly need some filing cabinets to organize all your important papers (not to mention your brick collection)? Sufficiently robust furniture might do as a barrier as well, if you own some that will fit in the areas you need it. Let your imagination loose on the problem, something will no doubt materialize that will work for you.

Most anything that will be effective in stopping a goblin- whether delivered from handgun, rifle or shotgun- will go through a couple of layers of drywall, and maybe more. It's good of you to be aware of Rule 4 ( http://thehighroad.org/library/rules.html ) and considerate of you not to want to unnecessarily ventilate the neighbors with stray projectiles. If the present structure is inadequate to serve as a backstop, you are going to have to improvise something that will.

lpl/nc

[DirtyBrad]

I appreciate the feedback.

The BOT is one reason I decided to go with #4. It penetrated about 25% less than the 00, yet still seems to be regarded as a reliable stopper at household range.

silverlance, keep in mind that #4 buck and #4 bird aren't the same thing. #4 bird takes something like 135 pellets to an ounce, while the buck only takes about 20. I didn't realize this myself until I bought a box of #4 bird the other day and opened one up.

I like the ideas for the improvised backstops very much. In my place, I'd most likely be shooting from the bedroom, which means in effect shooting down a short hallway to the bedroom door.

The backstop there is the washer/dryer unit, drywall, then the heating and air-conditioning stuff, then the outer wall, which is brick. After that is the sidewalk, then about a quarter mile of woods. We're on the second floor.

That's a pretty ideal set-up and something I hadn't really thought about before. But even with good lanes of fire, I'd still like to do all I can do reduce the chance of hurting an innocent person.

It's impossible to say what would happen in an actual fight and it's certainly possible that a bad guy would get to an area without a secure backstop. If that means he's close enough to be an immediate threat to my girlfriend or I, my first priority is going to be on stopping him. I'd like all the extra insurance I can get if doing that is going to be with a background that's not 100%.

I wonder. If #4 penetrates 6 boards and 00 penetrates 8 boards, do you think reduced recoil 00 might also penetrate 6 boards? If so, would it be better to pick #4 over 00 RR because you're getting the same penetration, but with almost three times the projectiles?

[Zundfolge]

I wonder. If #4 penetrates 6 boards and 00 penetrates 8 boards, do you think reduced recoil 00 might also penetrate 6 boards? If so, would it be better to pick #4 over 00 RR because you're getting the same penetration, but with almost three times the projectiles?
When you count all the projectiles together you'd have a point, however those more projectiles are going to have less energy each than the 00.

But honestly we're picking nits here as #4 and 00 are both going to be as effective against soft tissue at those short ranges (or at least the degree of difference will be negligible).

[DirtyBrad]

Less energy because of less mass, right? But same penetration, so the chances of one hitting a vital organ is higher.

I'm sure you're right in that it's academic, but I thought it was interesting.

[Steve C]

At the distance you'll be shooting in an appartment or house, generally 20' would be the maximum distance, any shotgun load is quite adequate against intruders. Over the years I've read many a newpaper article about an intruder behing shot with some home owners bird gun and very few of them lived. If you are worried about over penetration then just load one of those skeet or game loads. At house distances you're going to have to aim to make a hit. Arguments about needing 10 or 12" of penetration is nonsense. That bird shot may only penetrate 4 to 6" but try finding a spot in your center mass where vital organs are deeper than an inch or two. If you think 8 shot is too light get a box of 1-1/4 oz #4 or #6 Pheasant load.

Now if you engage an opponent at 50 yds or greater then buckshot and slugs would be the way to go.

[DirtyBrad]

Steve, I'm not sure I agree. I don't doubt that bird has stopped a lot of people. But I've read a bunch of stories myself about it not stopping. I'm just trying to get as reliable as I reasonably can.

What finally got me off my ass about this was patterning my shotgun last weekend. I brought my short barrel to the range and taped a piece of pine 1x2 up on the target less than twenty feet away. The few pellets that didn't just dent it only penetrated about as deep as they were wide.

I know that doesn't really translate to humans, but it makes me think a guy in winter clothes isn't going to be stopped too quickly by it.

If a guy broke in tonight and all I had was bird, I'd be glad to have it. But to me, spending the twenty bucks or so to buy enough buckshot to test on the range and keep in my gun is well worth it.

[junyo]

Over the years I've read many a newpaper article about an intruder behing shot with some home owners bird gun and very few of them lived.Birdshot can cause a really devastating wound that will kill efectively. Eventually. But killing isn't the goal. Instant, or as close to instant as possible, incapacitation is. As is often said here, there's only three ways to do that; destroy/disrupt the central nervous system, the brain, or cause a massive loss of blood pressure.
Arguments about needing 10 or 12" of penetration is nonsense. That bird shot may only penetrate 4 to 6" but try finding a spot in your center mass where vital organs are deeper than an inch or two. I'm sorry, but that's just really bad advice. On the average adult male, darn near anywhere on the torso has at least an inch or two of fat and muscle before you get to anything vital, more than that on a fat/muscular guy, the really critical stuff is protected by bone, and that all assumes a square on hit, with no obstructions. If you have to make a hit at an oblique angle, through clothing, a blocking limb, and abdominal bone/ muscle you'll need every bit of 12" to have a chance at an immediate incapacitation, and 15" would be better. You plan on the situation being adverse, not optimal.

[danurve]

#4 is awfully small. why is it sitll called buck? can it actually take down a buck at distances over 5 feet away?
I wouldn't use it for that even if it was legal. But, it does make a good coyote load.

[foghornl]

#4 BUCK shot is .24 in diameter, while #4 BIRD shot is .130

I don't remember where I got this chart, but here it is

[charby]

#4 birdshot at five feet in a 12 guage (2 3/4" highbrass) will blow a whole the size of a baseball in a rabid raccoon. This I have witnessed.

[sm]

I agree with Lee's Post #7.

No offense folks, but one has to investigate for themselves.

It does not matter what anyone writes in a magazine, on a box of ammo, any testing and evalulation, or Internet. All any of this information is - is a reference, or starting point.

Even the known trainers will write, do videos, and have training - they will all share with you - you have to investigate for yourself.

Some of us actually do / have shot inside buildings. There is a difference in shooting inside a structure and just shooting the materials that structure is made with.

Drywall for example reacts different when installed, than when just propped up on a shooting range.

Sum of the whole - not individual parts-Anon.

Firewalls for structures , including Apartments vary. Just like the codes for electrical, HVAC, and plumbing codes do over the years.

At 51 I am still doing what my Mentors did, and shared with me when I was wee brat.
I actually shoot and test for myself, sure I use for reference, and starting points what Mentors and all shared.
I Shoot dirt, just like my Mentors first showed me in late '50s. We called it Scientific Dirt/ Mud Test. Basically shooting into containers of dirt. Gelatin? Umm that was Jello and a special treat.

Pattern boards we literally wore out.

Why was furniture often placed as it was in home or business? Fatal Funnel , or shooting lanes or similar names.

Hey, I stopped an immediate threat when I was a kid , and used Cover , not concealement - Cover when I did so insides the two bedroom frame house I was raised in. Yeah , I dischared a firearm from cover inside my house.

--

Real threat of being kidnapped, yeah I know about this all too well. One reason I had a ugly Chest of Drawers I paid $10 for, and inside was steel plates and bricks. I had something similar in my bedroom, and one my shooting lanes, ME using 12 ga slugs in an Apt mind you and .45ACP was that Ugly Dresser as a backstop.

I chose that apartment for a reason. I had the firewall where it was, BOTH sides of me and how constructed, brick front, and I was on the 3rd floor.

I had shot a very similar construction out in the country. Yeah, one of my bosses, foot the bill and we "built" a similar set up for me, and body guards to actually shoot.

My carry load, was FMJ in my 1911, as some of these Thugs wore vests back then even. I practiced head shots, neck shots, Femoral artery shots, knees.

How raised - what you do.

Later, working in an OR...hey I have seen folks survive 00 buck, die from #9 target loads. Seen a fellow put a .357 in his mouth and live, done the organ harvest on the lady that died from a .22 fired from a NAA mini revolver.

When a drunken Rookie cop , and his buddies drunk, as neighbors got upset with the video game, and "tried" to shoot the TV with a Glock .40 and missed, I hit the deck in my apartment. I had also beefed up that apartment with steel , brick and whatnot.

Shots went the other way...but when I hear a shot, I hit the deck and head for cover.

I knew, them .40s could NOT penetrate my beefed up system. I had shot them with handguns , rifles and shotguns before being installed.

How raised - what you do.

I am a huge believer in dedicated .38spl wheel guns for Apartment dwellers for a reason. Loaded with standard pressure 158 gr LWSC or LSWC-HP. Heck of lot easier to answer the door for one thing. A whole lot harder for a Thug to grab that gun , if he is standing over you while in bed.

Oh yeah, just to give some weebie-jeebies. Ask me how many folks have been surprised by someone in their apt . Oh yeah. Especially cute gals. Apt mgrs give out master keys to maintanence folks, exterminators and whomever else.

No big effort to find out when someone leaves and returns. Not hard at all to slip in while asleep, or be hidden and wait until the shower runs or they get undressed for bed.

Shotguns I like, lots of trigger time. But a dedicated .38spl, on person, entering or exiting a dwelling works. Works while in the shower, or in bed, or answering a door.

Some of us know this all too well.

Focus on the threat/ target. Get training on avoidance, and HOW to deal with it. Actually investigate for yourself.
Focus more on threat/ target and less on guns and ammo.

Software - not Hardware.

Biggest threat most folks have in an Apartment? Fire.
Most Apartments have the electric smoke detectors. Lot of good those are if the power is out.

Get your own battery operated ones, fire extinguishers , flashlights- including bedroom, and get rope, or something to allow you to escape off back balcony.

Lot a good a Ultimate shotgun and whoopie loads do when the fire is at front door and you are on second level or higher...