A question I always wanted to ask at TFL, but never did.


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WonderNine
January 5, 2003, 05:02 AM
Ok, there is no ammo section on this chat board so I cannot find a better place to ask this question.

I carry a .357 daily. This is my concealed carry piece at work and in public, at least for the time being. It is loaded with 4 rounds of Remington Golden Sabers.

I also carry and Uncle Mikes ammo wallet in my coat pocket loaded with 12 extra rounds of Golden Saber.

Now for my question. What is the chance of ammunition going off on it's own? Yes this is something I actually worry about. Can centerfire ammunition go off on it's own? Are extremes in temperature or G forces involved?

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JohnK
January 5, 2003, 05:14 AM
I'd say the chance of ammo going off on it's own without being cooked to several hundred degrees or hit with an electrical current that might cause a spark inside the case, are just above zero. Of course if something hits the primer just right it could cause it to fire, but that's not going off on its own.

I think there are other things to worry about that are more likely to happen, like being hit by lightning or winning the lottery. :)

Why only carry with 4 rounds? Do you have one of those 4 barreled derringers?

Marshall
January 5, 2003, 05:27 AM
Wondernine,

I think that is a proper question to ask, probably has crossed the minds of many. Actually though, your chances of a lightning strike are better! If you have concerns about it, throw those concerns away and enjoy one less thing to worry about.

In good conscious though, I could not end this without saying treat all ammo with care. ;)


Marshall :)

buttrap
January 5, 2003, 06:26 AM
Just dont carry the ammo in the same pocket with your spare batteries for the mini-mag light.

sasnofear
January 5, 2003, 06:47 AM
jus make sure u dont hit the primers & u'll be fine

sensop
January 5, 2003, 10:12 AM
"... loaded with 4 rounds ..." Wanna tell us about that? You gotta a four shooter?;)

Mike Irwin
January 5, 2003, 11:16 AM
Why do you only carry 4 rounds in your gun?

Modern handguns can be safely carried with a round under the hammer. The old strictures against carrying a round under the hammer no longer apply to most modern handguns due to advanced designs.

As for the possibility of your spare ammo going off on its own, it's EXTREMELY unlikely. Even if it did all it would likely do would be singe your pocket.

Harold Mayo
January 5, 2003, 02:18 PM
I was carrying a loaded 1911 on my dashboard (well, that's where it was when the cop got to my vehicle) when pulled over for speeding once. The LEO was angry that he couldn't get me for anything with a firearm but he did make it a point to tell me that I shouldn't carry a loaded gun on the dashboard in the summer because the heat from the sun could cause the rounds to detonate.

:rolleyes: :banghead:

Blackhawk
January 5, 2003, 02:23 PM
The chances are about as close to zero as you'll find in this life.

Dave R
January 5, 2003, 02:24 PM
I don't think you could make that ammo go off even if you were hit by lightning.

Lots of CCW holders and LEOs carry ammo on them day in and day out. You hear about negligent discharges from the gun, but you never hear about ammo going off on its own.

Be safe about it, but don't worry unecessarily.

4v50 Gary
January 5, 2003, 02:26 PM
Unless you're subject to spontaneous combustion (and I hope not), I don't think your body or the immediate environment will cause a "cook off" of your ammunition. Also don't think a car or motorcycle or even twisting in a fighter jet will cause the ammunition to go off, so don't worry about that either. Fortunately, we're all too slow. :)

BTW, what's with 4 rounds? You've got two empty chambers or different type of bullets in those chambers?

Redlg155
January 5, 2003, 02:38 PM
It is loaded with 4 rounds of Remington Golden Sabers.......I also carry and Uncle Mikes ammo wallet in my coat pocket loaded with 12 extra rounds of Golden Saber.


Duh...easy! So he can have three reloads instead of two!


Silly People!:D

Good SHooting
Red

MountainPeak
January 5, 2003, 02:43 PM
The chances are slim to none with none being the operative word!

Triad
January 5, 2003, 02:46 PM
Are extremes in temperature or G forces involved?
Remember that fighter aircraft are subject to some extreme G forces. They also carry fairly large amounts of ammo. No problem. Also, the guys that fly them carry guns, again no problem. If you find yourself in temps that might cause your ammo to go off, you'll either be moving away quickly or dead, so I wouldn't worry about it.

joeoim
January 5, 2003, 02:49 PM
I've left some .357s and .22s on the dash of the pickup (in the sun) and when I came back they were so hot you couldn't hold them in your hand. Don't know what it would take to make them ignite, they had been there all day. Been very careful of that since. I've carried .38 +ps in my pockets for years and found them so dinged they wouldn't chamber and had to throw them away. You would have to worry more about them not chambering than going off.

Keith
January 5, 2003, 03:02 PM
I was about 16 when I did this and I already know it was stupid thing to do...

I had a box of .22's that were hit or miss on whether they'd go off - bad priming or maybe just old, I dunno. So, my buddy hid behind a tree while I tossed them in a fire and ran for the same tree. The fire was just a hot bed of coals and those rounds starting going off within seconds. The thing was that these rounds were hitting trees all around us and just bouncing off. Actually, it was mostly the cases flying around, which makes sense as that is the lighter of the two components.

Anyway, these things didn't have enough energy to even "stick" into tree bark. These were only .22's and defective ones to boot, but I suspect that even a centerfire round going off in your pocket - uncontained by a chamber - probably wouldn't hurt you too bad. Maybe an ugly surface wound and burns.

With that said, I find it hard to imagine how that would happen.

Keith

Mal H
January 5, 2003, 03:04 PM
I realize the question has been sufficiently answered, but what the hey, here's my $.02 worth.

On G forces - A fired full house .44 Magnum has been variously measured at from 1,000 to 1,500 G's. Bullets in the chambers don't go off.

On high temps - I believe a bullet has to be exposed to temps over 250 deg F for awhile before they even have a chance to spontaneously go off.

So, if you are exposed to either of the two situations above, believe me, you have a whole lot more to worry about than the ammo in your pocket going off by itself!!

El Rojo
January 5, 2003, 03:10 PM
I would worry about your situational awareness more than your rounds in your pocket cooking off. Even the spark thing I would find unlikely. Think of how many times you get shocked while you have ammo or a gun on you? My wife's dumb car shocks me everytime I touch the door to close it. And I am often armed and have never had a problem. The only problem I have is everytime I get out of a car, I expect it to shock me!

Mal H
January 5, 2003, 03:16 PM
A little OT hint El Rojo. Hold your car key tightly in your fingers and touch it to the metal on the door first. The static elec. will be spread out over a much larger area of your fingers and you won't even feel it.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

triggertime
January 5, 2003, 04:03 PM
Its highly unlikely that ammunition will detonate on its own outside of being smacked directly on the primer with sufficient force or thrown into a fire.

For what its worth, I've left magazines in the center console of the car in 100 degree heat and the ammunition inside them never cooked off. Sure the magazines were too hot to touch, but the ammunition was fine when it was shot at the range. No noticeable increase in pressure, no kabooms, no split cases, etc.

I'd be more concerned about carrying spare ammunition loosely in the pocket because it would be more suceptible to dents.

And if exposed primers and dents bother you, then carry your spare ammo in Bianchi Speed Strips.

Just remember not to carry anything else in the pocket along with them.

WonderNine
January 5, 2003, 04:40 PM
Why only carry with 4 rounds? Do you have one of those 4 barreled derringers?

Yep.

WonderNine
January 5, 2003, 04:42 PM
As for the possibility of your spare ammo going off on its own, it's EXTREMELY unlikely. Even if it did all it would likely do would be singe your pocket.

Wouldn't it blow up with the case going one way and the bullet going the other? You're saying it would just go ffffffffftt.

JohnK
January 5, 2003, 04:44 PM
That's the COP isn't it WonderNine? How is it when shooting full power magnums? Those looked like they had a bit more grip to them than most tiny 2 shot derringers and would be easier to control.

Triad
January 5, 2003, 04:47 PM
There have been studies on what happens to ammunition during house fires. They wanted to see how much danger the ammo posed to firemen. Basically what happens is it does go fffffffftt. The one I saw stated that what happens is the case ruptures. They said the primer MAY turn into a projectile, but it doesn't have alot of power to it if it does. The only real danger is if it's chambered when it burns off.

Justin
January 5, 2003, 04:58 PM
The only examples I can think of where heat caused ammo to cook off are the stories you see in the news now and then about somebody who puts a gun in the oven, and later the oven gets turned on and the oven's heat causes the gun to discharge.

Other than that I can't think of any sort of situation where you would even need to worry about it.

Harold Mayo
January 5, 2003, 05:26 PM
Not to sound like a "Rambo wannabe" or go OT, but carrying a few loose rounds in your pocket is an old trick that a lot of guys that I know do. The theory is that you still have rounds if you shoot your magazines empty. I don't personally see that there is any additional aid in doing that than in carrying an additional magazine but I do it at times, anyway. Makes me feel tactical.

Mike Irwin
January 5, 2003, 05:59 PM
"Wouldn't it blow up with the case going one way and the bullet going the other? You're saying it would just go ffffffffftt."

Yep, it pretty much would go ffffffft.

Smokeless powder is progressive burning, not explosive, Meaning that it burns faster and more efficiently the more pressure it's under.

In a gun you have a vessel that allows for pressure to develop rather nicely. The gun is essentially a pressure vessel.

If a round goes off uncontained, though, the casing itself is a pressure vessel. As pressure begins to rise as the powder burns, the bullet begins to move and pops out. Once the bullet, essentially the cork in the bottle, pops, pressure drops very rapidly.

The powder doesn't have the chance to develop the pressures it needs to burn efficiently or completely. Chances are if a round did go off in your pocket you'd find a lot of unburned powder and soot.

The biggest danger in a situation like this is the primer cup. If the primer compound pops, it is an explosion, and the primer cup and develop significant velocity. At short range it's more than enough to cause an injury at short range.

MountainPeak
January 5, 2003, 06:21 PM
Wondernine, is this really a safety concern you have, or a question about how many rounds to carry in a pocket so women will think you are "REAL" happy to meet them.;) Just kidding, by the way, I was born and raised in ND. I would be more worried about a freezer lock on flesh than a discharge! Well to each his own.:) !! Take care, talked to my brother today and he said he was having a 40 degree day. Not bad for Jan..

larry_minn
January 6, 2003, 02:11 AM
Harold Mayo Talks about loose rds. I do that when I don't want to bother to carry spare mag. A Glock mag is as(almost) hard to carry as a second gun. So I often stick half a dozen loose rds into watch pocket of my jeans. My thought is that if I have to use my gun. (and thankfully it has only been for pest control and putting animals out of misery) I can be fully loaded afterwards.
If forced to defend myself do not want to be out of ammo before I am safe.

Gordon
January 6, 2003, 02:22 AM
I would be more worried about hitting a perp and not a bystander if your COP is anything like mine was. Trigger pull about 18 pounds, no sight picture to speak of and danged if I could keep all hits in 7 yd k zone -slow fire! I still liked the "thing" though and kept it about 5 years and yes carried "it" too. Dont put your gun in a micro wave though I got it on good authority it will go off in a minute after lightning storm ect.:)

griz
January 6, 2003, 07:58 AM
If you are looking for something to worry about, it's probably more likely that a round will NOT fire when you pull the trigger than one just going off by itself.

WonderNine
January 6, 2003, 11:32 PM
That's the COP isn't it WonderNine? How is it when shooting full power magnums? Those looked like they had a bit more grip to them than most tiny 2 shot derringers and would be easier to control. - JohnK

Yes, that's what I have. Bought it NIB awhile ago. I've fired about 200 rounds through it so far and I LOVE it! Very durable and well made piece. Takes a little longer to clean though with the 4 barrels :D

I used to have a titanium Taurus .41 magnum (415T) as CCW piece, but it was just too loud w/ the 210gr.'s and too big for front pocket carry anyways.

The Cop has pretty good control for a pocket gun. Reasonable sized grip with checkering. I shot about 50 full house 125gr. Remington magnums through it and you wouldn't believe the muzzle blast. The last time I shot it at the range was a few months ago at dusk, some 12 or 13 year old kids were watching me and one says to the other, "That's a .50 caliber." :D made me laugh.

It is also too loud though with the full house magnums. I carry it with Remington Sabers as they are downloaded to about a .38 spec. +P+ level. Short barreled guns don't really benefit that much from full powered loads anyways.

I would be more worried about hitting a perp and not a bystander if your COP is anything like mine was. Trigger pull about 18 pounds, no sight picture to speak of and danged if I could keep all hits in 7 yd k zone -slow fire! I still liked the "thing" though and kept it about 5 years and yes carried "it" too. - Gordon

True the trigger pull is heavy, but I'm able to pick off bucket sized targets at 25 yards. Gotta squeeze the trigger, but that's like with any other gun. Perhaps you had a lemon? My rate of fire tends to be very good as well. I did some tests where I would rapid fire four shots at a box 10 yards away, I was satisfied with the results.

My biggest problem with the gun is the reload time. You have to pull out each shell individually and load a new one in each chamber. Oh well, can't have it all I guess.

WonderNine
January 7, 2003, 12:20 AM
but carrying a few loose rounds in your pocket is an old trick that a lot of guys that I know do.

Why not use an ammo wallet or speed strip or stripper clips or moonclips or speedloaders or extra loaded mags ANYTHING but loose rounds in the pocket.

mowgli
January 11, 2003, 12:55 PM
I carry the extra rounds in the right pocket of my jacket so when I sweep it to go for the holster it hangs away from my body for a second. Makes clearing the holster a bit easier. A roll of nickles would work too, but you can't shoot nickles if you get in a real bind.

This thread also reminds me of something I read a while back about a Fire Department study with ammo cooking off in fires. It turned out that ammo outside of a gun wouldn't even penetrate a turnout coat.

I am thousands of miles away from my library so please forgive my lack of ability to cite the info. It would stop the nagging in my brain if someone could tell me where I read that report.

Gewehr98
January 11, 2003, 01:37 PM
http://www.derringer.de/n-cop8.jpg

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