UK Gun Control = AK47s for Bad Guys


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Thin Black Line
October 13, 2006, 09:41 AM
Yep, cutting up a law-abiding citizen's semi-automatic magazine fed
rifle really made a difference....:rolleyes:


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2401628,00.html

The Times October 13, 2006

Troops accused of gun-running for cocaine and cash

By Daniel McGrory and Dominic Kennedy


NINE British soldiers are facing a court martial for allegedly smuggling guns out of Iraq to sell for drugs and cash. Investigators fear that weapons and ammunition being trafficked by troops from war zones will end up in the hands of gangsters.

The soldiers from the 3rd Battalion The Yorkshire Regiment are accused of buying cocaine from gangs in Germany, where their unit was based. Royal Military Police have investigated claims that the alleged drugs were sold to other British troops still serving in Iraq.

A former security official involved in tracing the flow of battlefield weapons to the criminal underground told The Times yesterday: “This is happening far more often than the authorities choose to admit and it is hard to stop the practice.”

He believes that troops are adept at hiding weapons and ammunition among military hardware being shipped back to Britain.

The cache is dispersed among hundreds of shipping containers. If the arms are found the military cannot prove who owns them. If they slip through searches the smugglers collect and dispose of them quickly to drug gangs who are always in the market for weapons, the official said.

Investigators say that the weapons are worth more if ammunition is also provided.

“An AK47 rifle with 200 rounds will go for between £2,000 and £3,000. A Glock pistol, which is used by the new Iraqi police force, will fetch more than £1,000, as long as there is ammunition, as that is far harder to get than the guns,” the source added.

This year a group of 120 police recruits who were being trained in southern Iraq all claimed to have lost their pistols. Some were later found on the black market in Basra. Military authorities concede that soldiers have brought home war trophies since Classical times but the fear is that weaponry is being smuggled back to sell to criminals.

A recent investigation by The Times reported that a lethal collection of illicit weaponry from Iraq, Afghanistan and Kosovo had been seized.

The risk of weapons reaching gangs was highlighted by the murder in Hertfordshire in 2003 of the gangster Dave King, who was shot with an AK47. It was the first time that a Kalashnikov had been used by British street criminals. It was believed that the rifle had been brought back by a serviceman from the Balkans.

Charges were announced yesterday by the Army Prosecuting Authority against nine soldiers who served in Iraq last year. The men were then with The Duke of Wellington’s Regiment, which was amalgamated into The Yorkshire Regiment that was formed in June. The armoured infantry unit is now based at Battlesbury Barracks in Warminster, Wiltshire.

The investigation is reported to involve soldiers from another regiment. The Ministry of Defence has not said whether the weapons allegedly sold were British army issue or were taken from Iraqi soldiers or police, or insurgent groups.

The men are due to appear at Catterick Garrison on November 30 when arrangements for a court martial may be decided.

One of the men involved is understood to be a constituent of Patrick Mercer, the Conservative spokesman on homeland security, who has criticised the time it has taken the Ministry of Defence to carry out its investigation. The MoD set up Operation Plunder to search vehicles and baggage for military trophies and souvenirs.

Documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act and information from Revenue & Customs show that 19 seizures of weapons and ammunition have been made in Britain since 2000.

A month after the fall of Baghdad in 2003, the first weaponry from Iraq was discovered in Britain: two SKS AR rifles.

Since then an RPG7 rocket-propelled grenade launcher from Iraq, a 60mm Iraqi mortar, a 140mm shell casing and ammunition has been seized.

Perhaps the most impressive trophy was a gold-plated AK47, presumed stolen from one of Saddam Hussein’s palaces.

HAULS THAT WENT MISSING IN ACTION

A gold-plated AK47, presumed stolen from one of Saddam Hussein’s palaces, was seized by Customs at Heathrow in packages addressed to the US

In October last year two US soldiers were jailed for conspiring to import guns from Iraq. The weapons had been hidden in the rewelded bases of oxygen tanks. The haul included 17 Russian-made AK47s and a Chinese rifle to Fort Campbell, Kentucky

Within two months of the West’s invasion of Afghanistan in October 2001, the first of ten seizures of ammunition, shell and cartridge casings, was being made in Britain

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sterling180
October 13, 2006, 09:45 AM
Just think in 1987,an ordinary citizen could own an AK47,until Micheal Ryan,misused his,by killing people in Hungerford,with it.

You can still get them in the UK,but the have to be straight-pull versions only,except in .22lr versions.

Rem700SD
October 13, 2006, 10:41 AM
as long as there is ammunition, as that is far harder to get than the guns

Alas, the profit margin is almost always in the consumables....

Cromlech
October 13, 2006, 04:38 PM
You can still get them in the UK,but the have to be straight-pull versions only,except in .22lr versions.

I am interested in obtaining one of the straight pull AK models someday. :D

TallPine
October 13, 2006, 05:10 PM
One of my many fears about gun control is that more criminals will have fully automatic weapons. Why not, if all guns are illegal anyway? In for a penny, in for pound

Cromlech
October 13, 2006, 05:19 PM
Tallpine, your fears have been confirmed in the U.K already.

A Mac 10 was used, amongst other weapons, in this case.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/03/19/ngang19.xml

El Tejon
October 13, 2006, 06:38 PM
This article is a complete and total lie!

Afterall we have learned on THR that absolutely no guns, I repeat no guns are being smuggled out of Iraq!:scrutiny: :rolleyes:

jnojr
October 13, 2006, 06:54 PM
One of my many fears about gun control is that more criminals will have fully automatic weapons. Why not, if all guns are illegal anyway?

That, and they get lots of "free" crimes, anyway. If someone is arrested for parole violations, robbery, burglary, weapons charges, etc. they might technically face dozens or hundreds of years in prison... but half the charges will just not be prosecuted because others are a stronger case, then more are plea-bargained away, then sentencing is light because "it just wouldn't be fair to sentence him to a significant percentage of his life in prison", then he earns "good behavior credits" and is ultimately released early anyway because of overcrowding.

A career criminal might see several months or a couple of years of prison at a time, and then their sentence is done... they're already felons and so aren't losing anything more. They go right back to committing crimes and illegally possesing weapons to start the cycle all over again. An additional gun charge, or having a full auto, doesn't really mean anything. It's all a joke.

But if I get dinged up for some ridiculous "weapons violation", my life is over. *** is wrong with our society?

Lucky
October 13, 2006, 07:03 PM
"Royal Military Police have investigated claims that the alleged drugs were sold to other British troops still serving in Iraq."

Umm, support our troops? Seriously though, if cocaine helps them stay alive, then they should be allowed. A friend in the Brit army told me that if you smoke pot and are caught, you're out of there. Use cocaine, and you get rehab and can come back.

Cromlech
October 13, 2006, 07:52 PM
I agree, in situations where certain troops (special forces, maybe) could use something to keep them wired for a period of time, then I have no objection.

Cannabis is fine, in my opnion, while on leave. Nice sort of thing to calm you down, but not what you want to be under the influence of in combat (just a guess, as it mongs you out).

El Tejon
October 13, 2006, 08:05 PM
jnojr, come now, gun laws are meant to disarm you, not criminals, career or otherwise.

Sarah Brady admits that criminals will always have guns. The anti-civil rights lobby gives not one whit about crime. The care deeply about disarming the citizenry.

Afterall an armed man would be able to object to their utopian socialistic vision!:D

Autolycus
October 14, 2006, 02:17 AM
War trophies are an idea just as old as war. It seems terrible that they would deny a soldier them.

Especially denying a veterans teh right to own fully automatic weapons while expecting them to carry one in defense of their country.

Thin Black Line
October 14, 2006, 10:29 AM
Afterall we have learned on THR that absolutely no guns, I repeat no guns are being smuggled out of Iraq!

It's hard for the average soldier to do. Not as hard for the average
contractor.

War trophies are an idea just as old as war. It seems terrible that they would deny a soldier them.


We were allowed knives, bayonets, and helmets (with a letter from your
CDR) this time around, but a friend from Gulf I would have been in big trouble
had he done the same back then. He did smuggle back a Republican Guard
Black Beret in his shorts, though :D

Even combat vets are not allowed firearms because our fedgov is at its core
against individuals owning firearms.

El Tejon
October 14, 2006, 10:47 AM
May be hard to do, but smuggling is taking place more and more.

The rumor around the federal courthouses is that ATFE had yet another round of discussions with DoA and DoN on re-doing inspections.

Fosbery
October 14, 2006, 01:57 PM
I wish I knew some of these guys, I wouldn't mind an AK or three.

xd9fan
October 14, 2006, 04:30 PM
Is there any movement to take back your basic human right to self protection and gun rights in the UK? Seems like after 1997 everything is going down hill.

Fosbery
October 14, 2006, 05:57 PM
Well, there is a strong gun lobby in the UK (relative to other Uk lobby groups, not relative to the US gun lobby obviously) but as far as I am aware it focuses entirely on sports and hunting. There is a large proportion of gun owners who are very much for the RKBA and very much for arms for defence and all that but this feeling never gets voiced officially. Partly because it just won't fly and partly because any talk of self-defence or being secure from opression will immediately be jumped upon by the left wing media as terrorist activity, militia activity, insane gun nut activity etc. Some target shooting clubs ban the wearing of camouflage (except by serving military personel) as it gives them a bad, non-sporting image.

Personally, I want to start up an 'extremist' movement in the UK to lobby, not just for better laws for sportsmen and hunters, but for the inalienable right to keep and bear arms. However, I think I'll just move to the US :rolleyes:

Cromlech
October 14, 2006, 06:30 PM
Fosbery is right, and although it may seem like the U.K 'shooting family' is full of a bunch of quitters, there just aren't enough of us to make a difference.

Hell, all of the major gun restrictions were put in place before I turned 13, not much I could do about it. :mad:

G36-UK
October 14, 2006, 06:37 PM
Hell, all of the major gun restrictions were put in place before I turned 13, not much I could do about it.

Same here. It's a shame that gun owners are all painted as "nuts", despite being more mentally balanced than the antis over here.

Odd Job
October 14, 2006, 07:09 PM
It's a shame that gun owners are all painted as "nuts", despite being more mentally balanced than the antis over here.


Even if you don't have guns but you belong to a club and use their guns, you get frowned upon by the general populace. I tried to get colleagues of mine from the hospitals to come down to the range on visitors' day, but most of them say they don't like guns. Guns are bad. Guns kill. The only success I have had was with some Aussies and South Africans, and one or two guys who had a military background before they became health professionals. The UK is hampered by evils that are protected by a mechanism that is half made of political correctness and half made by a ridiculous nanny attitude. It's fast becoming a state where a citizen won't take a crap without phoning up some spineless official and asking how many squares of toilet paper he is allowed to use.

It is a damn shame. The 'greatness' of Great Britain is fading daily. Criminals and religious extremists (who I like to call arse-fezzes) have every whim catered to, and the ordinary decent guy on the street is the one who gets no joy when things go sour. And he can't protect himself, because he is denied the means.
I wonder if our other UK friends here on THR will agree with me that something is seriously wrong with the UK, and that this 'disease' is evident in the type of TV content we have. You see Chavs, delinquents, morons and lay-abouts on the news, on watchdog programs and on various documentaries daily. These kids such as the ones you see on Super Nanny, are a product of parents not exercising the proper discipline and decent upbringing of their kids. They sit there and smile benevolently while these little tykes run around swearing, trashing the house and not respecting any adults. And that is the problem. What you see there is the UK's future. In about 30 years time when these dipsticks are running the country, it won't be a question of whether you get your guns back, it will be a question of whether the country can keep its head above water.

Fosbery
October 14, 2006, 07:27 PM
Got to agree. British society has gone right down the crapper.

Though I must say I've had much success spreading the good word of shooting. My wife now shoots, most of my work colleagues, friends and family have tried it - my nephew is now a regular shooter.

Most of the people I talk to agree with me on the Question of Guns to some degree. Many people think guns for defence etc are good and that guns are beneficial to society, but that there needs to be liscencing or that things like machineguns and grenade launchers should not be allowed. These people are clrearly not insane, blind antis or idiots. I may disagree and say "no, there should be NO restriction" but let's face it, making grenade launchers illegal isn't exactly the work of Satan (aka Tony Blair). I have met a couple of die hard antis but most people I speak to are not inherently anti, they've just come to accept gun control as a good thing without thinking. WHen you make them think about it logically, they realise the stupidity of the idea. One bloke told me he had never, ever met anyone who thought gun control was a bad thing - "it's just crazy enough that it makes sense... I guess I agree with you" :D

G36-UK
October 14, 2006, 10:53 PM
I agree with both of you.

Personally, I'm not much of a real gun enthusiast (with the exception of quite a few that aren't ownable here), but I'm not one of the irrational few who demands a ban on guns just because I can't think of a use. Law abiding people use them, that's good enough for me.

The problem is, people over here generally don't care about Practical Pistol, or clay pigeon shooting, or even Airsoft and paintball. Despite the vast differences between the various firearm and replica enthusiasts of the UK, the media and the anti-gun groups lump them together under the term "gun nuts". Unfortunately, they seem to enjoy lumping the actions of criminals in with the law-abiding.

Although each of the groups in the UK are different in ways, we must stand together, instead of seeing each other as sacrifices to buy ourselves more time.

(Apologies if this doesn't make any sense, but it's 2:46AM and I've run out of tea, so I'll say goodnight.)

Green Lantern
October 14, 2006, 11:21 PM
Don't worry 'bout a thing, UK people! I'm sure your ace government and law enforcement will take these bad guys down HARD! :cool:

That is, assuming "ace" = backwards-thinking nimrod and bully...

And "bad guys" = grandmother that gets a broken arm from a band of teenage thugs, a woman that *gasp* yelled the "f-word" at ANOTHER band of teenage thugs, and a 14-year old girl that didn't want to be a forced, unpaid engligh-language tutor...:uhoh:

Screw amnesty for illegal aliens.....I think it's high time America offered mass-immigration deals for a group that really NEEDS it - the subject-victims of life in the U.K.!

Fosbery
October 15, 2006, 09:45 AM
it's high time America offered mass-immigration deals for a group that really NEEDS it - the subject-victims of life in the U.K.!

Amen to that :D

Cromlech
October 15, 2006, 10:44 AM
We should all club together and buy/rent a small property with a few rooms, while citizenship is sorted out. :D

Odd Job
October 15, 2006, 11:49 AM
If I didn't have professional limitations imposed upon me, I would make every effort to go to the US. Even without those limitations I would effectively be demoting myself and killing all my research. So unfortunately for me, the US is not an option.
If there is one good thing about the UK, it is that the career prospects of a radiographer are far better than those in the US and in SA. I should make it clear therefore that I am very grateful for the professional development I have had in the UK, but I fear for the future of this country.
Well, maybe Australia will give me the overall best balance of job satisfaction and standard of living. Their firearms rules must surely be better than the UK's.

Stickjockey
October 15, 2006, 01:56 PM
Not by much, now.

Thin Black Line
October 15, 2006, 04:20 PM
I tried to get colleagues of mine from the hospitals to come down to the range on visitors' day, but most of them say they don't like guns. Guns are bad. Guns kill.

Sadly, there is a very similar attitude in the health, human services, and
education fields here as well. I took a grad med school student (psychiatry)
out shooting --his first time. He gave it an honest try, but you could tell he
was really intimidated by the weapon itself (yes, there's some irony).

Although he decided "guns really aren't my thing" on the plus side he did
state that people who could use them safely and responsibly were fine.

He now has a very successful private practice in a rural area of a
CCW state. He works too much and wouldn't have time for the range
anyway.

LAR-15
October 15, 2006, 04:47 PM
With all the AKs awash in Eastern Europe is a wonder not more are being smuggled into the EU.

Or are they?

Thin Black Line
October 15, 2006, 05:00 PM
Well, according to IANSA....

sterling180
October 20, 2006, 12:32 PM
Their firearms rules must surely be better than the UK's.

Yes and no OddJob. Firstly,unfortunately Australia's gun laws are similar to the UKs,but with a few exceptions-here and there.I will list what they can have,what we can have and what we both can have,below.It seems easier to get a license for a gun in the UK,then in Australia,from what I have read in threads-on this website.

Australia:
Banned all semi-automatic rifles after the Port Arthur Massacre in 1996,the weapons were finally handed in in 1997,at the same time of the handgun buyback,here in the UK.Pump and semi-auto shotguns,were included in the 1996,ban in Australia-too.PM John Howard,who hates guns,was delighted to see the end of them,by helping to create ridiculous laws,to counter his fear of them.

Pump-action rifles survived the 1996,gun ban.They are still common,with those persons who once hunted with semi-automatics.Unfortunately the arrogant and snobbish,sporters in the UK and from the UK Deer Society,told the government,that UK citizens,didn't need them.

Handguns wern't touched in 1996,but became more severly regulated and in 2002,after a Chinese student killed several students with a .38 revolver-a new gun ban was introduced,that banned all short-barrelled pistols.Also more stringent regulations were put on pistols and a shooter can wait upto 18 months for a license-for a handgun.

The UK:

I think that you know about Hungerford and Dunblane,so I won't go in to it,at all-but we still retained pump-action shotguns,semi-auto shotguns and .22 rifles,in those two formats-as well.Hand guns survived the 1988 gun purges and ban,but only for another decade.

Pistols were banned,none spared sadly,in 1997 and in 1998,except for LBRs and LBPs.

If you went to Australia,you could own a handgun,but not a pump-action shotgun or a straight-pull rifle,that resembled a semi-automatic,military rifle.However there have been stories,of some shipments,from the UK-getting through,into some states.

However pumps and semi's are making appearences in some shooting disciplines,over there-in some states.:) :)

In the UK,you could own both but not a standard handgun,but you could have owned all three,before 1997.

So take your pick and see which country,you would rather,live in.The general populance,is very similar too,with slightly more shooters.

The antis,from both nations, still want bolt,pump and lever actions,banned over there as they do here.Both anti organizations are similar,in both content,attitude and in main views:not suprisingly because both are twined,with each other after Port Arthur and Dunblane.

By the way, I have seen clips of that new dystopian fim "Children of Men" and I can imagine what the future,will be like for us in the future-if we had all of our guns removed and if the situation,in terms of terrorists and other undesirables,get more so out of hand,than at present.

Odd Job
October 20, 2006, 01:02 PM
@ Stirling180

Thanks for the info, that makes things a bit clearer. So basically the question for me would be 'how short is short' in terms of the barrel length restriction in Oz. If I could get a SIG P226, that would trump any long arm advantages that the UK may have. It seems to me that the handguns being available at least in part, is the main advantage of Oz over UK.

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