Costco is officially anti-gun, anti-CCW


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BlackOpsSec
October 13, 2006, 11:49 AM
up until my local Costco posted a "no firearms" sign recently (since my last visit), i figured they were not anti CCW. i saw the new sign when i went to Costco last night though. i sent them an email to ask about the sign and let them know i didn't agree with it. here is Costco's reply:

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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 14:15:33 +0000 (GMT)
From: Costco MemberServices <memberservice@costco.com>
Reply-To: memberservice@costco.com
To: x@blackopssec.com
Subject: Re: Warehouse Questions or Suggestions [#37946]
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Dear Ken,

Thank you for your email to Costco Wholesale.

In reference to your inquiry on our policy disallowing the carrying of firearms in our warehouse stores.
Costco does not believe that it is necessary for firearms to be brought into its warehouse stores, except in the case of authorized law enforcement officers. For the protection of all our members and employees, we feel this is a reasonable and prudent precaution to ensure a pleasant shopping experience and safe workplace. Our policy is meant to protect our members and employees in all warehouses around the world. This is not a new policy and we do not customize the policy for each individual city/county/state/country where we do business.
Bringing a firearm into our warehouse does not enhance the shopping experience. We are sorry the message you are hearing is that “we don’t want you.” It is the firearms that we exclude in the warehouses, not the carriers.


Thank you,

Costco Wholesale Corporation
memberservice@costco.com


http://www.blackopssec.com/img/costco.jpg

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armoredman
October 13, 2006, 11:52 AM
Good thing I don't shop there!

dasmi
October 13, 2006, 11:53 AM
Good thing they have that sign. It's real big and has red letters, I'm sure everyone will obey it. Costco must be the safest place in the world.

scout26
October 13, 2006, 12:04 PM
I don't shop at Costoco as they are very anti-2A/RKBA. I can't recall where I saw it, but they donate heavily to to Anti-2A organizations (like Brady, MMM, CPHV, Joyce Foundation, etc.)

Maybe someone has a link.

Here, found it.

http://www.buyblue.org/node/721/view/summary

Duramaximum
October 13, 2006, 12:10 PM
Can they actually stop you? What are they going to do if you get caught; tell you to leave? Spank you and take away your birthday? Can cops do anything if you have a CWP? As long as you have your CWP Costco should have to take a long walk off a short pier.

In Montana we can't pack in:
Government Buildings (Schools)
Financial Institutions (Banks)
Anyplace you can buy and consume alcohol within the same building (Bars)
Trains (Trains)

It doesn't say anything about pansy stores that don't like guns that put a sign up. I always referenced stuff like that to open carry.

When I was applying for my CWP, I talked to the Detective who was taking my fingerprints. I asked him whether the CWP was more of a permit to carry or a permit to conceal. He said both because here in Missoula, we have a ban on open carry (Stupid hippy town.) You just can't carry in the state listed locations. Anything else isn't really a concern to them in terms of can and can't carry excpet your job where they can fire you for not complying with company policy.

jlbraun
October 13, 2006, 12:16 PM
Once again the passive-aggressive "You don't neeeeeed a gunnnnnn."

$*&^ it, might be time to sell my stock.

Henry Bowman
October 13, 2006, 12:18 PM
The Costcos here in Ohio (where anti CCW signs are all too popular) are not posted.

Still, I read the smug "Bringing a firearm into our warehouse does not enhance the shopping experience" statement to be on par with racial discrimination. :fire:

cambeul41
October 13, 2006, 12:24 PM
to religious discrimination.

03Shadowbob
October 13, 2006, 12:26 PM
If they found out someone was CCW in the store I would think that they could:
1) ask you to leave
2) call the po-po and make a scene
3) ask you not to come back and if you did then you get arrested for trespassing
4) revoke your membership

If it does not state in the state statutes that it is illegal to do something then it simply isn't illegal. Right?

RNB65
October 13, 2006, 12:29 PM
Can they actually stop you?

You'll have to check the laws in your state. Here in VA it is a crime to CCW on private property which is clearly posted as no guns allowed.

Juna
October 13, 2006, 12:29 PM
For the protection of all our members and employees, we feel this is a reasonable and prudent precaution to ensure a pleasant shopping experience and safe workplace.

That's such a BS argument. The store would be safer with law abiding citizens carrying concealed firearms inside. Then if a BG decides to *gasp* disobey the sign and try to rob the place, he will be in for a big surprise and it's much less likely that innocent shoppers will get hurt.

Just because it "doesn't enhance the shopping experience" doesn't give them the right to violate our IIA rights!

Also, as an aside, why is it that off duty cops can CCW anywhere, but we can't. What makes them special? I mean, when they're on duty I can understand it, but off duty they're just civilians again. We can all receive very advanced firearms training just like the cops. So I've never understood that. Anyone care to explain?

Keith Wheeler
October 13, 2006, 12:34 PM
Folks like this just don't understand the difference between citizens and consumers.

Or, unfortunately, maybe they do.

Jorg Nysgerrig
October 13, 2006, 12:35 PM
I mean, when they're on duty I can understand it, but off duty they're just civilians again.

"In most jurisdictions, whether on or off duty, officers are expected to be armed and to exercise their authority whenever necessary." Source (http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos160.htm)

Third_Rail
October 13, 2006, 12:35 PM
I'll happily shop there until they have metal detectors. Good prices allow me to donate money to GOA, JPFO, etc.

Zundfolge
October 13, 2006, 12:35 PM
Bringing a firearm into our warehouse does not enhance the shopping experience.
Neither does forbiding law abiding licensed gun carriers from entering your warehouse.

If a law abiding individual carrying a gun (especially concealed) is bad for the "shopping experience" than a cop wearing a gun is just as bad.


The simple fact is that its not the guns that they don't want, its the people who believe it is acceptable to carry them legally.

DRMMR02
October 13, 2006, 12:36 PM
I mean, when they're on duty I can understand it, but off duty they're just civilians again. We can all receive very advanced firearms training just like the cops. So I've never understood that. Anyone care to explain?

Well not all departments and counties are like that. Many have a "24/7" idea about being "on duty". Knowing how to shoot is not the only part of being a police officer. They also have the training to actually apprehend and cuff suspects, as well as other training, like medical first response. In addition, they have a lot more discretion at their disposal when it comes to drawing and possibly discharging their firearms. Given those facts, plus the fact that they are sworn and get paid to do just that kind of job, it does make sense that they would have a few more privileges than others. I posted a thread in the Strategies forum about whether you would try to detain a mugger or let him go, and most people said "I would let the cops go after him, it's what they get paid for". Well, they're right. Going after bad guys is their job. And it doesn't always stop after they punch out.

gunsmith
October 13, 2006, 12:38 PM
I know you won't miss one customer but since concealed carry
is a growing segment of the population, it will contribute to a net loss
I am sure.
Gun owners, especially those with concealed permits, have gone through
back ground checks and generally have more income then felons and sex offenders
you seem to be catering to.

gunsmith
October 13, 2006, 12:44 PM
Here in Reno NV I go just about anywhere while packing, I ignore all signs except ones backed with a metal dectector. They can only ask you to leave, if you don't it's a tresspassing ticket.

Mossyrock
October 13, 2006, 12:51 PM
My response to that sign? Ignore it. That's why it's a concealed weapon. I don't think my local Costco has a sign posted, but even if they did, I would smile, show the door attendent my Costco card and keep walking. Is that 300 pound woman who checks my card going to keep me safe? I don't think so.....unless, of course, I can use her as cover. :neener:

Third_Rail
October 13, 2006, 12:52 PM
gunsmith - I'm fairly certain VT is the same way. Anywhere not specifically prohibited by law is allowed; one of the prohibitions is anywhere with metal detectors.

K-Romulus
October 13, 2006, 12:56 PM
If Rosie O' or Babs Streisand decided to "Drop By" (for whatever reason), would Costco tell the armed bodyguards to pound sand?

longeyes
October 13, 2006, 01:03 PM
The simple fact is that corporations are part of The Problem. And not just as regards the Second Amendment. Do I have to mention their role in promoting open borders? Corporations are about top-down control and the botom-line, not the values of the Founding Fathers.

Rev. DeadCorpse
October 13, 2006, 01:04 PM
I'm all for business owners being able to put in place ANY policies they want. It's their business, let the market decide.

That being said:

1. Setting your business up as a victim disarmament zone is the epitomy of "dumb". The first set of people to be in one of their stores when some nut comes in for a shooting spree instead of a shopping spree should sue COSTCO's asses off for failing to allow them their RKBA.

2. If you are carrying concealed, what they won't know won't hurt them.

Thefabulousfink
October 13, 2006, 01:08 PM
We are sorry the message you are hearing is that “we don’t want you.” It is the firearms that we exclude in the warehouses, not the carriers.


Oh, I get it!
They are just worried about firearms running amok in their store, shooting wildly, and endangering people. Well Costco every time I enter your store I will firearm safely in it's holster. Heaven forbid I left it out in the parking lot where it could cause all kinds of damage.:neener:

Actually, I think Costco is a liar. It IS the carriers they are worried about. Well Costco, I propose a deal: You let me carry in your store and I will give you my word as a gentleman to not shoot up the place.:rolleyes:

pax
October 13, 2006, 01:11 PM
"Why don't they just put up a sign that says, 'No Robberies or Murders Allowed'?" -- Don Stahlnecker

pax

Wesker
October 13, 2006, 01:15 PM
No where on that sign does it have the 30.06 bill which carries some legal clout. All they can do is tell you to leave if your piece is spotted.

Besides, isn't there a Sams Club around there?

Manedwolf
October 13, 2006, 01:16 PM
I now consider shopping in a Costco to be a higher-risk activity doing so in other warehouse stores.

One, less law-abiding citizens are carrying and able to stop an attacker. And two, just as with "gun free schools", a murderous rampager will be more likely to pick it as a target.

I want to shop where others of my fellow law-abiding citizens are armed. If some nutcase came in and started spraying, it'd be a lot better to see other fellow armed citizens besides yourself drawing and trying to line up a shot as you all went for hard cover...not just you and you alone.

I don't think BJs has this policy. Sam's is a waste of time to me, their prices on most items are HIGHER than major discount stores, especially electronics.

wdlsguy
October 13, 2006, 01:23 PM
No Guns = No $$$

petrel800
October 13, 2006, 01:23 PM
I was under the impression that in some states in order to stop licensed individuals from entering the premesis with a firearm, a certain sign had to be posted with ordinance numbers on it. If the sign did not comply with the law of that jurisdiction, then it had no legal baring to the individuals entering the premesis.

I will point out however, we get all up in arms about this sort of thing, but the next time you go to your local gun store look at what they have on the door. I know here in GA, especially in the Atlanta area, that they have absolutely no loaded firearms are allowed signs on their doors. Maybe we should clean up our ranks before we go crusading against the antis.

03Shadowbob
October 13, 2006, 01:33 PM
There's nothing in the FL Statutes, that I can find, that says it is against the law to carry into a costco. Below is the brief list of where you can't carry in FL.

Possession Restrictions
The following is a list of places where you are restricted from carrying a weapon or firearm even if you have a license. Please note that this is a simplified list. The places marked by an asterisk (*) may have exceptions or additional restrictions. See Section 790.06 (12), Florida Statutes for a complete listing.

any place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05
any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station
any detention facility, prison, or jail; any courthouse
any courtroom*
any polling place
any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district
any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof
any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms
any school administration building
any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption*
any elementary or secondary school facility
any area technical center
any college or university facility*
inside the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport*
any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law

Thefabulousfink
October 13, 2006, 01:36 PM
petrel800,

As far as gun stores go, most of the Mom&Pop stores up hear don't say anything. I believe Sportsman's Warehouse has some sort of policy, but I have brought in a couple firearms to buy accesories for and the managers all told me this:

"If you have a permit and the gun stays in your holster (out of sight) we don't much care. If you are going to be taking your gun out to size holsters, fit scopes, etc. we ask that you unload it and check it in at customer service."

It's nice living in a free state.

Edit: This was what the managers have told me for this one store, it is NOT official policy.

DoubleTapDrew
October 13, 2006, 01:44 PM
That's too bad, I like Costco's prices.
Nobody will see your CCW if you are properly carrying concealed, and if it ever has to come out, violating Costco's policy is the least of your concerns.
Bringing a firearm into our warehouse does not enhance the shopping experience. We are sorry the message you are hearing is that “we don’t want you.” It is the firearms that we exclude in the warehouses, not the carriers.

I suppose we should comply with their rules. I don't like the idea of tying up my gun on a leash outside the store but rules are rules. Maybe I can convince them that it's my "seeing eye gun"? :D

DRMMR02
October 13, 2006, 01:46 PM
I have a medical disability that makes me carry a gun. I'm not from the planet Krypton.

Protein anchor
October 13, 2006, 01:50 PM
DR...funny. I will have to go down there and see if my Costco has one f these signs. I need a holster first!

MillCreek
October 13, 2006, 01:59 PM
In Seattle, the home of Costco and where the founder and owner of Costco still lives, there are no such signs on the local Costcos. I have not seen such a sign on any Costco in Washington state. As suggested upthread, I suspect this may be due to the laws in a particular jurisdiction, like when I am in Texas, and see all the no-carry signs posted on businesses there.

Dravur
October 13, 2006, 02:54 PM
Corporations are all about the bottom line? wow! what a novel concept! I didn't know that they are supposed to be altruistic forms of a quasi-state. Of course businesses make decisions every day for the good of "Their Business" That is what a business does. They have absolutly no requirement for them to be someone's nanny or must hug a tree every day. they are in the business to.....make a profit for the people who own the business <Bonk>

So, when you think that a business should do X, whether conservative policy or liberal, they do that based on whether it is good for buisiness. There are some businesses who promote left wing causes as they think this is where their brad is buttered or the corporation likes to donate to pet causes. There are others whose only concern is making a profit. Again, nothing wrong with that.

Your only choice is whether you shop there or not. If you don't like their policies, take your biz elsewhere. If enough people stop buying there, they will have to adapt or close.

Henry Bowman
October 13, 2006, 03:03 PM
No where on that sign does it have the 30.06 bill which carries some legal clout. All they can do is tell you to leave if your piece is spotted.For those who have not noticed, there are parts of this world that are not in Texas.

I know, I know, the law in Texas is the law everywhere. Least that's what I wrote on the bar exam. :rolleyes:

Valkman
October 13, 2006, 03:13 PM
I haven't seen that sign here, and it would be worthless anyway legally. I walked by the same sign at a casino in Pahrump - means nothing in NV. I don't have to obey it, the bad guys won't obey it so it's definitely useless.

cbsbyte
October 13, 2006, 03:25 PM
The Costco near here does not have any signs up. Maybe it just your local store manager decision or a regional dicision. Personally I would not make a big deal about it since it is their property. They have the right to ask people not to carry firearms, just as you have the right not to shop there. I bet this decision is based on a Costco's Attorney's reason to fear a lawsuit.

Optical Serenity
October 13, 2006, 03:28 PM
A funny story about Costco:



About two years ago myself, another police officer, and my family to include two females, and a child, went to costco.

Now, mind you, the two of us were off duty so we simply had guns on in belt holsters. Matching glocks too. We were plain clothes, no costume, but we did have our work radios with us, as we were listening to a situation in progress in the area. So, we were walking around the store, and we hear:

"Radio to 1311 copy a Signal 54, Signal 69 at Costco..." followed by address.

Signal 54 = suspiscious person
Signal 69 = armed person

so, they go on:

"Signal 54 is going to be two males, appear hispanic, a child and two females, the two males are 69 with handguns, appear very 54 according to Costco management"

So, we looked at each other, and knew what was about to happen. With our badge & ID's in hand, we walked to the front of the store. Needless to say, several pd units arrived, and approached us. We didn't show badge or ID at first, but did have our radios in hand, 5.11 pants on, and polo shirts.

The officers looked at us, then became fairly upset at the costco employees and even said to them "WHAT EXACTLY LOOKS SUSPICIOUS ABOUT TWO GUYS WITH GUNS? ARE YOU KIDDING US?" and after we started to talk to them, a few of them actually recognized us too, we laughed it off, and ever since I have had a very low regard for Costco.

The fact of the matter is, this is Georgia...open carry by a licensed citizen is perfectly ok.. I think the costco employees were fairly surprised to see that while PD showed up very quickly, they thought the notion of two men simply shopping (with their family no less) was ludicris.

Also, the store offered no appologies to us or the responding officers.

Costco's behavior that day: :barf:

Note: That Costco, and others I have seen in Georgia do NOT have a sign up restricting firearms. Also Georgia law does not give businesses the right to use such signs. All they can do in GA is ask the person to leave.

crucible
October 13, 2006, 03:31 PM
I don't believe the COSTCO near my house is posted-good thing as they have doggone good gas prices. That said, Sam's Club is right down the street too, and I have no problem letting COSTCO know my and my family's decision to spent thousands of dollars yearly with thier biggest competitor if they do go out of thier way to post.

You'll have to check the laws in your state. Here in VA it is a crime to CCW on private property which is clearly posted as no guns allowed.

I don't believe that to be the case at all; if you are asked to leave you must, otherwise you can be prosecuted for trespassing of course. Do you have a link to the state laws to confirm?

C-

longeyes
October 13, 2006, 04:02 PM
Corporations are all about the bottom line? wow! what a novel concept! I didn't know that they are supposed to be altruistic forms of a quasi-state. Of course businesses make decisions every day for the good of "Their Business" That is what a business does. They have absolutly no requirement for them to be someone's nanny or must hug a tree every day. they are in the business to.....make a profit for the people who own the business <Bonk>

So, when you think that a business should do X, whether conservative policy or liberal, they do that based on whether it is good for buisiness. There are some businesses who promote left wing causes as they think this is where their brad is buttered or the corporation likes to donate to pet causes. There are others whose only concern is making a profit. Again, nothing wrong with that.

Count me as someone who believes that corporations are part of society and share certain political and cultural values with the nations that birthed them. Making a profit, in defiance of the basic principles of the Constitution (RKBA) and winking at immigration laws, is dishonorable. Yes, you heard me right. Without honoring those and other essential principles "business," as we know it, becomes an ignoble enterprise and very likely one without much of a future. I don't expect the generation of analysts, bean-counters, and "marketing" types to grasp this basic notion. Corporations have been anomalous from the outset and always uneasy allies of those who believe in liberty. The really "novel concept" is that your country comes first, and maybe it's time we reminded ourselves of that in our pursuit of life, liberty, and expanding profits.

Nicolai
October 13, 2006, 04:15 PM
Pretty interesting thread.
I quit going to Costco when their bigwigs decided to throw lots of $ at political candidates like John Kerry. Interesting that lots of consumers vote with their feet and their $ when a company like Costco goes bonehead.
Right after we got our CHL, my wife and I were at the Quarry Market in San Antonio and Whole Earth Provisions had one of the signs with a red circle surrounding a semi-automatic pistol and a red slash through it. My wife, bless her heart, said, "looks like they don't like Glocks, good thing we carry Smiths." Our only trip since to the Quarry Market was for a book signing by retired Texas Ranger H. Joaquin Jackson.

ZeSpectre
October 13, 2006, 04:28 PM
Guys, the psychology of many people (especially city dwellers) has been warped to the point that they can't conceive of anyone just wanting to carry a gun. Hell I have had people FREAK over my 4" pocket knife with the typical reaction of "JESUS, you have a KNIFE IN DC! WHY, ISN'T THAT ILLEGAL!!!"

So I often ask them what I'm supposed to do, gnaw boxes open with my teeth???

Dravur
October 13, 2006, 04:31 PM
A business as an entity is not a person and is not guaranteed rights by our country. A business as an entity is designed for one issue, to make money for it's owners. How it goes about this is up to its corporate culture. Do they break the law and hire illegals? do they give money to charities from both the left and the right? possibly, but that is a corporate decision.

In the former, hiring illegals, it is illegal and the business could suffer repurcussions. In the latter, they could lose business by donating to causes. Again, a business is not inherently evil and not inherently good. It exists for one reason. The people RUNNING the business may have their own agenda, but the business in and of itself is largely apolitical. Does Toyota have a responsibility to the U.S. to make the US Better? Or do they have a responsibility to Japan? Does Ford have a responsibility to the US or to Chile, where they also sell cars?

Business are reactionaries to government, but in and of themselves, they have nothing to do with government. It gets very silly claiming that businesses are behiolding to the government for anything. Businesses are businesses, nothing else. They work and react to the government and work within the structure, but have no morality of their own.

30 cal slob
October 13, 2006, 04:32 PM
costo's in my home state (Connecticut) are not posted.

come to think of it, i haven't seen any stores posted in nearby NY state either.

must be a local manager discretion thing (?).

ArmedBear
October 13, 2006, 05:23 PM
It's an insurance thing, no doubt.

However, they can't SAY that in the e-mail.

This message could be expensive to them: "You know, we really don't give a crap. Just keep it concealed. But we have to post that sign because our insurance is a lot higher if we tell them there are loaded firearms on premises."

Mac Attack
October 13, 2006, 05:27 PM
What Costco doesn't know won't hurt them. ;)

ArmedBear
October 13, 2006, 05:29 PM
My point exactly.

Zundfolge
October 13, 2006, 05:37 PM
It's an insurance thing, no doubt.
I hear that all the time and I don't buy it ... if that was true than EVERY STINKING BUSINESS would have signs up.

Its a political thing and/or its an ignorance thing, but I don't believe that insurance companies are forcing businesses to put up "No CCW" signs.

The key is to let businesses know that if they insist on making such political statements they will not get our (gun owners) money. Then they have to decide which is more important, their political statements or our money (and if enough of us let them know our money is leaving, they'll drop this scat right quick).

Juna
October 13, 2006, 05:38 PM
...one of the signs with a red circle surrounding a semi-automatic pistol and a red slash through it. My wife, bless her heart, said, "looks like they don't like Glocks, good thing we carry Smiths."

:p Looks like you're a lucky man! You've got yourself a keeper there.

ArmedBear
October 13, 2006, 05:42 PM
The key is to let businesses know that if they insist on making such political statements they will not get our (gun owners) money.

I agree with that, regardless of the reason.

All I can say is that, here in California, fear of lawsuits and high insurance premiums are a major driver in nearly every action taken by businesses, HOA's, etc. That does influence the approach you want to take.

If a business does something overtly political, I'd say get really aggressive up-front. Let them know you want your stores to stay out of politics, or support your side, and that doing otherwise is at their peril.

If a business does something out of a fear of liability, however, a more rational, lower-key approach -- firm but polite -- would be appropriate.

Juna
October 13, 2006, 05:53 PM
All I can say is that, here in California, fear of lawsuits and high insurance premiums are a major driver in nearly every action taken by businesses, HOA's, etc.

This is true of pretty much everything in this country in present days. The legal system has really screwed up a lot of our country by entertaining and pursuing frivolous lawsuits. Everything (including things dictating insurance premiums) is dictated by fear of law suits. It doesn't matter what it is... business, medicine, insurance, fast food, commercials, disclaimers in instruction manuals, warnings for plastic bags, etc.

Everybody is afraid of Sam Bernstein and the rest of the ambulance chasers, and it's all because our legal system allowed such law suits as McDonald's being sued for their coffee being hot. Now they have to put a warning on a coffee cup. All of those ridiculous warnings are everywhere because some idiot somewhere either tried to or did sue over what is painfully obvious to anyone with a pulse.

We, as a society, need some major tort reform to end frivolous law suits. We need to make it harder for a frivolous law suit to become an instant winning lottery ticket. The powers that be in the judicial system need to stop entertaining these ridiculous law suits. If this ever happens, places like Costco will have one less reason to put up signs like that. That said, I still think it's BS that they put that sign up.

tube_ee
October 13, 2006, 06:16 PM
and it's all because our legal system allowed such law suits as McDonald's being sued for their coffee being hot. Now they have to put a warning on a coffee cup.


There are many exapmles of frivoulous lawsuits, and many examples wehre they are successful. The McDonald's coffee suit isn't one of them.

McDonald's coffee pots kept coffe at 208 F. They had paid thousands of workman's comp claims over the years to employees badly burned by coffee. They'd had thousands of customer complaints, and even paid (out of court) for injuries sustained by the public from the coffee. They'd even been fined by several state safety departments. Why? Because it was cheaper to keep quietly paying docotr bills than to remove hundreds of thousands of coffee pots and replace them with ones that kept the coffee at a sane temperature.

The woman who's suit became (wrongly) the poster child for junk lawsuits filed suit asking for medical bills and 6 month's lost wages, after skin grafts and all the rest. The jury, after reviewing the full history of the thing, decided to punish McDonalds by making it more expensive to continue than to change. Speaking the only laguage a corporation understands. Niether the plaintiff, nor her lawyer, nor the judge, asked for a punitive damage award.

Finally, the judgement was substantially reduced on appeal, as almost always happens with these large, news-making punitive awards.

There are lots and lots of examples of this kind of behavior. Companies often disregard correctable, life-endangering flaws in their products because they calculate the risks as being smaller than the cost of fixing it. The Pinto, Vioxx, the Dalkon shield, the list goes on and on. Punitive damage awards reverse that calculation, and that's often a good thing.

If you're looking for an example of frivolous lawsuits, please find a better one. It's not hard. The woman in Arizona who sued God for 100K after she was struck by lightning comes immediately to mind...

As to the topic, you've got to evaluate the consequences of ignoring that sign, based on the laws where you live. It's their property, they can post it if they wanna. Me, I shop at Costco, because I like a business that offers me low prices while at the same time paying their workers decent wages and giving them benefits. Given the choice between an unposted Sam's Club and a posted Costco, I'd shop at the Costco. Why? Because while I dislike Costco's firearms policy, I dislike WalMart's policies and practices even more. You've got to make your choices, and there aren't any perfect ones.

--Shannon

carebear
October 13, 2006, 06:43 PM
Not posted in Alaska either. Signs prohibiting have to be of a certain size and wording to be valid or you haven't committed a violation of the carry law, which has specific penalties.

However, in the end, a store has the right to refuse service for any or no reason and if you don't comply and the cops are called it'd be trespassing (eventually).

In general, if they ask you to leave, you gotta go.

Guns_and_Labs
October 13, 2006, 06:44 PM
The woman in Arizona who sued God for 100K after she was struck by lightning comes immediately to mind...


I have to ask: in what jurisdiction did she file, and how did she serve the defendant?

DerringerUser
October 13, 2006, 06:52 PM
Dammit. Not im gonna feel guilty for shopping there. It really blows that they're anti-2A, they have great prices and great products. I wish these stores would just stay neutral on polotics.

Optical Serenity
October 13, 2006, 06:57 PM
Strange, just spoke to someone I know who works for them and he said they don't have any anti-gun policies in their corporate that he's ever seen.

he also made a good point. He said they make the bulk of their money on membership, and finance services to businesses. He said if you already have a membership, they make very little profit on most items you purchase in the store.

Guns_and_Labs
October 13, 2006, 06:59 PM
All I can say is that, here in California, fear of lawsuits and high insurance premiums are a major driver in nearly every action taken by businesses, HOA's, etc.

Well, I can actually see a rational point here. If there is a shooting onsite, Costco can try to defend itself, saying that they took all reasonable precautions, posted signs, etc. It's likely to be ineffective, but why not try?

On the other hand, I would also advise my client that they not take the sign too seriously, and adopt a "don't ask, don't tell" approach to lawful CCW.

Rem700SD
October 13, 2006, 06:59 PM
The important question you need them to answer is "if your policy prevents me from defending myself, are you accepting responsibility for my protection, i.e. liability?" That would make my attorney feel..safer. If he says yes...

Steelcore
October 13, 2006, 08:07 PM
I used to work for Price Club.Price Club was bought out by Costco in 92-93.Both have anti firearms poliicies.the PC that I worked at in VA had a sign over the front door.It dissapeared during one of the renovations.My shift started at 2am.I carried various weapons in my car the entire time I worked there.No way would I drive to work without some backup.I didn't carry on my person because it was too uncomfortable.Most everyone else carried a weapon.we used to show them off in the parking lot before mgtm showed up to let us in.The jamaicans carried machetes.Well used machetes........... 8-)

ZeSpectre
October 13, 2006, 08:22 PM
-------------begin quote-------------
The important question you need them to answer is "if your policy prevents me from defending myself, are you accepting responsibility for my protection, i.e. liability?" That would make my attorney feel..safer. If he says yes...
-------------end quote-------------

Oh that's GREAT! Somebody should send a reply to the Costco email and ask them that question. I'd LOVE to see what their response is to that question.

torpid
October 13, 2006, 08:53 PM
The important question you need them to answer is "if your policy prevents me from defending myself, are you accepting responsibility for my protection, i.e. liability?" That would make my attorney feel..safer. If he says yes...


Oh that's GREAT! Somebody should send a reply to the Costco email and ask them that question. I'd LOVE to see what their response is to that question.

I imagine the response would simply be along these lines:

"No, we accept no responsiblility for your protection if you choose to enter our stores. We regretfully understand if you choose to decline patronizing Costco due to our no firearms policy. However, you are always welcome to to shop in any of our stores provided you are unarmed while on the premesis."

longeyes
October 13, 2006, 09:16 PM
A business as an entity is not a person and is not guaranteed rights by our country. A business as an entity is designed for one issue, to make money for it's owners. How it goes about this is up to its corporate culture. Do they break the law and hire illegals? do they give money to charities from both the left and the right? possibly, but that is a corporate decision.

In the former, hiring illegals, it is illegal and the business could suffer repurcussions. In the latter, they could lose business by donating to causes. Again, a business is not inherently evil and not inherently good. It exists for one reason. The people RUNNING the business may have their own agenda, but the business in and of itself is largely apolitical. Does Toyota have a responsibility to the U.S. to make the US Better? Or do they have a responsibility to Japan? Does Ford have a responsibility to the US or to Chile, where they also sell cars?

Business are reactionaries to government, but in and of themselves, they have nothing to do with government. It gets very silly claiming that businesses are behiolding to the government for anything. Businesses are businesses, nothing else. They work and react to the government and work within the structure, but have no morality of their own.

"Sigh?" Congratulations, you've mastered Business 101, your masters must be very proud of you, you are now a credentialed bizbot.

Look, if you really want to believe that once you start working for a corporation you are no longer an individual human being with responsibility for you and what happens around you, that's your--excuse the expression--business, but don't look around you and wonder what's happening to your society while you're busy making money in an alleged vacuum. That "vacuum" is and was a social fiction. When a "corporate culture" runs afoul of the law and of the needs of the nation it becomes expendable, no matter how "profitable" it may be. There are more measures of wealth and well-being than the P&L.

Dravur
October 13, 2006, 11:25 PM
a business does not have a soul, it cannot make decisions...... I hope that is simple enough for you.... The PEOPLE running these businesses make decisions that can hurt or help the business. The business, in and of itself cannot do this and are completely devoid of feelings.

Some businesses are RUN to the detriment of themselves and /or their employees. Some businesses are run to the great joy of their employees, shareholders and management.

But, and here is the rub.... Businesses do not have any other thing to do but to make money... The people who run a business are people, with all their failings. Some of the people can be socialists, or conservatives, but a business is neither.

Corporations are not the focus of evil that so many socialists complain about... When Wal-mart makes the decision to stop selling guns, for example, they are doing it for a reason that may be valid or not. They may be putting something else int here that sells better or they may cave to government or legal pressure.. This is a decision the people who run the business make, but it has absolutely nothing to do with a business or corporation being evil.

Corporations who move jobs offshore are simply responding to the fact that manufacturing costs in this country are higher than in others and to compete, they move off shore. Is that evil or wrong? no. that means we have made ourselve uncompetitive in the global market. Our businesses, run by people must adapt and stay competitive.

Businesses never operate in a vaccuum. They must compete every day and deal with other corporations, regulations from the state and yes, they must worry about the P&L. Theoretically, they should be doing this within the letter of the law. The only business that operates in a vaccuum is the government which does not have to compete and can compel the minions to pay for whatever they want based on the barrell of a gun.

SAG0282
October 13, 2006, 11:32 PM
Shameful, but a) I dont shop there and wouldnt because of this, and b) even if I did, that signs holds ZERO legal weight in my state.

longeyes
October 13, 2006, 11:49 PM
a business does not have a soul, it cannot make decisions...... I hope that is simple enough for you.... The PEOPLE running these businesses make decisions that can hurt or help the business. The business, in and of itself cannot do this and are completely devoid of feelings.

Some businesses are RUN to the detriment of themselves and /or their employees. Some businesses are run to the great joy of their employees, shareholders and management.

But, and here is the rub.... Businesses do not have any other thing to do but to make money... The people who run a business are people, with all their failings. Some of the people can be socialists, or conservatives, but a business is neither.

No, it's simple enough for you, though. Believe it or not, it's not difficult to grasp that there are human beings running a non-human entity called a business. It's interesting to see that you can disconnect the people running a business and informing its culture from the business itself. No doubt that explains a great deal about the kind of country we have evolved and why we can't quite seem to grasp all too often why America is having the problems it's having. I don't recall attacking businesses; I am calling to account those who participate in them and, unfortunately, also hide behind them.

bouis
October 14, 2006, 12:38 AM
The reason that McDonalds had the coffee that hot in the first place was because customers want hot coffee.

This in my mind should be an absolute defense to product liability lawsuits.

Dravur
October 14, 2006, 12:42 AM
as a business entity, according to your mind, they should do the things that may not contribute to the bottom line, perhaps causing the business to fail all to go to whatever pet cause that you have determined that they should join in. Who makes that decision for the business? The people running the business or the all mighty government or special interest group that does not have the businesses' best interest at heart?

So, if a labor union, say at ford or GM has hurt business sooooo bad that they cannot afford to make cars and trucks and Toyota and Subaru can afford to make cars better and cheaper, we should be forced to buy a Ford or GM, just because it is good for the country <which, FYI, it is not> Should a benign government force the people and businesses to be generous with bennies and pay when that same strategy will cause a business to go out of business? I believe France does this and they are the model for efficiency and global commerce. <crap, dripping Sarcasm on the floor>

Who is this mythical person that is going to make all our dreams come true in this economy? Should we nationalize all companies that we dont agree with?

Sorry, Capitalism is the best system. Incentives matter in this world. Businesses will come and go, fail and succeed, but the notion that businesses should be required to respond to some ethereal notion of goodness is just plain silly.

cyco668
October 14, 2006, 03:29 AM
I don't shop at Costco, so I don't care about their policies. However, if I disaree with a stores policy, I have the option of not shopping there. They are free to make certain policies, such as no firearms, and I am free to spend my money elsewheres. Or I could just not carry a gun into a store and go shopping. Choice is mine.

The 2nd Amemdment has nothing to do with CCW, it says we have the right to keep and bear arms to maintain a well regulated Militia so we can be called upon, by Congress, to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions (Art. I, Sect. 8, Cl. 15). The reason why I own firearms is Amendment IV. We have a right to be secure in our persons, houses...etc. How better to secure yourself and home than with a few locks and some guns? I know that the 2nd Amenedment is the favorite one with this audience and few people will agree with my viewpoint, but look at the 4th Amendment and see if you can interpret it to say you have the right to carry firearms to "be secure". (I didn't see Costco mentioned in the Constitution... lol)

carebear
October 14, 2006, 03:44 AM
While I disagree in detail with your interpretation of the 2nd Amendment (it sounds basically like Cornell's "new" yet discredited "civic right" concept), I do agree that the 2nd has nothing to do with the right of Costco to bar carry on their property.

It's a private property rights issue, government shouldn't be telling private companies who they can or can not serve or hire for any reason.

Anteater1717
October 14, 2006, 03:51 AM
And i was waiting for kirkland brand firearms:(

DesertShooter
October 14, 2006, 11:11 AM
The Southland Corporation ("7-11" convenience stores) also has a "No guns allowed" policy, franchise-wide.

Several years ago, as a LEO, I responded to a "robbery just occurred" radio call at a "7-11" store. The clerk didn't WANT me inside the store, even though I was in full police uniform, because I was armed! I had to ask that clerk if he he had asked the ARMED robbery suspect to leave the store!
His reply? A very meek "No"!

Guns have been "demonized". NRA members are looked upon as being "ultra-right wing 'militia' members"!
Oh, if you own guns and have small children, you're looked upon as being an "irresponsible" parent!

I remember back when I was 7 or 8 years old (I'm now 60), and my teacher asked all of us to stand and tell the class about what we had done over the weekend. When it was my turn, I proudly stood up and reported that my dad and I had gone target shooting in the desert. The teacher didn't flinch one bit, and even said something along the lines of, "Oh, you must have had a fun time!". Now? I'd probably expelled or suspended from school, and my parents would be investigated for "neglect" by the Department of Children's Services!

Guns are "evil"? When will the idiots figure out that PEOPLE are evil, and not just the "bad guys" should be able to be armed?

George S.
October 14, 2006, 11:22 AM
None of the Costco stores in my area have any signs posted that state that firearms are not allowed. In any event, if your weapon is concealed then nobody should know in the first place.

Sometimes it's so hard to find an employee to help with a question or problem, I can't imagine that they would even be looking for armed citizens. Even the checkout people are too busy to watch people.

It would be too funny to see Costco install metal detectors at their entrances. At my local stores, all of the shopping carts are kept outside and they are metal. Everybody and their brother going into the stores has car keys, cell phones, and who knows what else. It would take hours to get people into the store when they open in the morning.

wingman
October 14, 2006, 11:31 AM
but the notion that businesses should be required to respond to some ethereal notion of goodness is just plain silly.

Sad that you seem to believe that, however it indicates the problem we have
in modern America, greed, lack of standards and morals.
Nothing wrong with making a profit unless you destroy the nation in the process.

langenc
October 14, 2006, 11:32 AM
I did not read all posts.

You need to get a supply of do not shop cards and leave them in those posted stores. Just ignorance on their part. Most likely NOT a policy as one poster noted OHIO stores are not posted.

DBabsJr
October 14, 2006, 12:02 PM
Business are reactionaries to government, but in and of themselves, they have nothing to do with government.

Businesses are an extension of the ones who run said businesses. If it were true that they have nothing to do with government, then my political donations would have a lot more value. As it is, though, my measly donations next to gigantic corporate donations mean little.

Why do we still have an illegal immigration problem?
What was the Abramhoff scandal really all about?
Whitewater? Mariana Islands? Enron? etc...

The key concept in all of these issues is the significance of corporate money's influence on government policy. If enough of corporate america (i.e. The Government) decides gun ownership is bad, then bye bye 2nd Amendment.

longeyes
October 14, 2006, 12:21 PM
I was very specific. That was no anti-capitalism screed on my part. I said corporations need to consider more than the bottom-line. They especially need to consider whether they are contributing to the dissolution of the nation and certainly to whether they are breaking the law or taking advantage of lawlessness. I'll stand by that. †he corporations, as shortsighted as ever, don't care whether America is nothing but a Third World shopping mall in 25 years; hey, they'll go where the profits are. Or they think they will. I'm wagering the whole system is in for some well-deserved shocks. Please don't create straw men in order to lecture us on the obvious benefits of the free market. We all got that theory a long time ago; would that the realities matched the academic theories. The global free market is great for China and for those here who work, openly or covertly, for China.

aspen1964
October 14, 2006, 01:33 PM
When are you people going to realize that so many of these big-box store corporations are not your friends..they just want your money & as much as they can get you to spend there...don't live your live solely by the bargain-dollar sale...it's degrading...Walmart, Target, Costco, etc...:p..here comes the cattle being herded to save five bucks...MOOOOOOOOOOO!! The free-entereprise and capitalism must be based on some principles of integrity or we get what America's corporations have degenerated down to what we have today...at least the stores and manufacturing companies of America's distant past had some class and pride of their service and products...and some kind of civic responsibilty..for the most part..the thing today's business generation lacks is vision...remember the good ole' rock n roll generation who said they despised the greed and such in the previous generation and how they were going to change the world...and they threw out many or most of the previous morals saying they were outdated, then as they grew older they discovered money and started making as much as they could and without any morals to guide what they would or would not do to get more...you are seeing the decaying and downfall of any principles in business and government & society..they changed the world alright..into a flushing toilet where society goes further & further down into the sewer...

TallPine
October 14, 2006, 03:05 PM
Costco does not believe that it is necessary for firearms to be brought into its warehouse stores, except in the case of authorized law enforcement officers.

It's not necessary to bring your car keys into the store either, so just leave them in the ignition switch of your car.:rolleyes:


Bringing a firearm into our warehouse does not enhance the shopping experience.

No one ever said that it did. ( What the heck is a "shopping experience" anyway...? ) But it just might save your life in the parking lot. ;)



Oh and BTW, a corporate charter is a special dispensation granted by the state, allowing a group of real individual persons to combine their capital and operate a business with limited liability to the stockholders. This dispensation allows the corporation to act as a "fictitious" person, including the right to sue and be sued on its own behalf apart from its stockholders. So it is ridiculous to say that a corporation owes nothing back to the society which granted its existence in the first place. Otherwise, we would be a nation of sole proprietorships and partnerships.

Prince Yamato
October 14, 2006, 06:42 PM
Well now,

you should just go to a wholesale store where bringing a gun in ENHANCES the shopping experience.

Green Lantern
October 15, 2006, 12:21 PM
Thanks for the heads up...

BTW, if you haven't already, you may want to join and submit this to the new anticcw.com website! :cool:

Langenator
October 15, 2006, 01:15 PM
I visited my local Costco yesterday (up here in the Great Wet North we don't have many alternatives-I only know of one Sam's Club, and it's 50 miles from here.)

I looked all over, and didn't see any "No firearms" signs.

Unisaw
October 15, 2006, 02:32 PM
I went to a Costco in Seattle yesterday and saw no sign despite looking for one. In any event, concealed means concealed as long as it's legal.

jeepmor
October 15, 2006, 02:42 PM
Costco does not believe that it is necessary for firearms to be brought into its warehouse stores, except in the case of authorized law enforcement officers. For the protection of all our members and employees, we feel this is a reasonable and prudent precaution to ensure a pleasant shopping experience and safe workplace. Our policy is meant to protect our members and employees in all warehouses around the world.


No guns allowed, how it that protection? Someone goes off the deep end fighting over some garment and we need to wait for the police?

Funny thing is, now that I've embraced CCW, I'm feeling more secure knowing roughly 4 in 100 of those Costco customers are CCW holders in my area. :D I think this is a mistake, but condoning would offer some huge legal ramifications I'm sure.

jeepmor

PressCheck
October 15, 2006, 03:20 PM
No signs here in Northern **********.

Sean Dempsey
October 15, 2006, 04:03 PM
While I don't really have an opinion on this, I believe you cannot carry a CCW into private businesses here in Utah if they have posted a restriction, and it could jeoprodize your permit status.

That being said at the same time - I know LOTS of folks with guns and CCW permits, all legal, that I would not want having guns. My CCW class alone had a dozen or so low-IQ redneck, well... idiots in it.

Just because someone gets a concealed firearms permit does NOT make them smart and/or responsible. I know plenty of slack-jawed southern utah back-country morons who have CCW permits and parade their guns around like it's going out of style.

So again, I am not commenting that Costco is right or wrong... but there's definitley some people I think are too unintelligent and irresponsible, but still have CCW's and have more guns than some small countries.

If your vehicle has a "Calvin" urinating on something, or any sexual innuendo or pun about "ram" "cummins" or "stroke", you should have all firearm privledges, and oxygen privledges, revoked. :)

crazed_ss
October 15, 2006, 04:27 PM
No signs here in Northern **********.
lol.. probably because virtually no one has a permit. :(

Jorg Nysgerrig
October 15, 2006, 04:30 PM
I believe you cannot carry a CCW into private businesses here in Utah if they have posted a restriction, and it could jeoprodize your permit status. ... My CCW class alone had a dozen or so low-IQ redneck, well... idiots in it.

You might want to know the law a little better before throwing stones.

What about private businesses? Can they post signs prohibiting someone from carrying a gun into their business, even though the person has a concealed firearms permit?
Naturally, private property owners may apply whatever restrictions they want. Whether or not these restrictions violate one's constitutional rights is for the civil courts to decide. But the only statutory restrictions on a permit holder are secured areas such as airports and federal buildings. Source (http://bci.utah.gov/CFP/CFPFAQ/FAQPrivate.html)

There are addtional laws regarding churchs and private residences (http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_0C058.htm) who give notice, but nothing about businesses.

TexasRifleman
October 15, 2006, 05:06 PM
No signs at the 3 I have been to in Texas, either the standard "No Guns" sign or the Texas specific sign.

So, not sure what to think.

It's possible your email was answered by someone giving not the corporate policy, but their own opinion via the company email. You only emailed "memberservices". That email address is probably dealt with by several employees.

I know at my company "info@xxx.com" gets to the in boxes of close to 50 people.

I'd escalate if you're really interested in finding the corporate stance.

It's pretty easy for some low level PR schmuck to send a reply like you got.

I'd think if the company was really strong opinioned they would have signs consistently.

Don't blame Costco yet for the actions of (possibly) just one employee.

More info is needed. Send an email to someone higher in the food chain along with the response you received.

BlackOpsSec
October 16, 2006, 07:58 PM
the really ironic thing, if you look at this from a purely logical or prudential perspective, is that posting a "no firearms" is illogical ... it doesn't make sense when you consider the expectations and outcomes.

if Costco posts a sign: it immediately becomes an issue and they lose some customers.

if Costco doesn't post a sign: nobody knows the difference, its not an issue, and they don't lose (or gain) any customers.

kw

p.s. and until somebody can provide real evidence that insurance companies require the signs, and explain why 99.5% of businesses disregard the purported insurance requirement and don't post a sign, i don't think the insurance argument should be considered.

Alan Fud
October 21, 2006, 03:02 AM
More info is needed. Send an email to someone higher in the food chain along with the response you received. I just sent a letter to the gentleman who made the statement and to my local Costco requesting a FULL refund of my annual membership fee ... Mr. Peter Wong
Assistant Warehouse Manager #783
COSTCO WHOLESALE
12011 Technology Drive
Eden Prairie, MN. 55344


Dear Mr. Wong:


I read with great interest the recent letter that you sent to Mr. Krafft dated October 15, 2006 explaining your Firearms Ban policy (see photocopy of said letter enclosed (http://www.keepandbeararms.com/bruce_costco_letter.pdf)).

I completely AGREE with you that as private establishment, you certainly have the right to institute such a gun restriction. However, as a LICENSED gun owner, I also have to right to decide where and how I spend my money.

If I have a choice between a place that allows me to carry my firearm and a place that forbids me from carrying my firearm, I will ALWAYS pick the place that welcomes me WITH my firearm.

Therefore, effective immediately, I will no longer be shopping at my local Costco where I have been a member since 1993. Nor, will I be renewing my membership when it expires. I will be sending a photocopy of this correspondence to my local Costco so that they will understand why they are losing my business after all of these year. And, as promised in your letter, asking them for a refund of annual membership fee IN FULL.

Thank you for informing us of your company's policy regarding firearms. I will do my best to pass this information along to as many people as I can. ... should be interesting to see what kind of reply I receive.

solareclipse
October 21, 2006, 04:20 AM
there is nothing that makes a cop more justified in totting around a gun than me, especially out of uniform. all these policies that end up in "except for cops" are pathetic.

but, a lot of the guys around here actually deholster when their shift ends and go around picking their kids from activities while still in uniform.. without the gun... it's insane...

carebear
October 21, 2006, 05:38 AM
I'm inclined to doubt that it is really "corporate policy" and not just some schmuck talking out of their 4th point of contact.

The number of THR members whose local stores (like mine) do not carry any such signs, while anecdotal and thus not evidence, strongly suggests it's nothing even approaching a "corporate policy". If it were, there'd be a whole lot of stores in violation and no one can really believe corporate doesn't send QC inspectors and regional manager types around to check such things.

LenS
October 22, 2006, 01:30 AM
If one wants to check this out from the top (no postings in MA or NH that I've ever seen) . . .

James D. Sinegal
President and Chief Executive Officer
from: http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=83830&p=irol-govManage

Although I couldn't find his Email address, extrapolating from others, it is likely to be jsinegal@costco.com

Address:
Corporate Office
999 Lake Drive
Issaquah, WA 98027

I also wonder if this isn't local/regional policy somewhere.

gunsmith
October 22, 2006, 02:04 AM
he hardly ever carries off duty.
I don't understand it at all

skwerl
October 22, 2006, 10:28 PM
In South Carolina a business may post a sign and you must obey the warning (it's only a misdemeanor, not a big deal, but you will lose your permit for 5 years if convicted :what: ). However, the sign has to be in the exact dimensions and colors as stated in the CWP regs and it has to be posted at each entrance to the building or property and at a certain height. For example, the local mall has signs posted all over it. The Sears entrance to the mall is not posted, so it is perfectly legal to carry in the mall; and hey, who doesn't go to Sears first anyway? Even outdoor events like a swap meet can post a sign. There is one near here that has an incorrect sign at all entrances, once again it's legal to carry there. Since the law does stipulate all entrances, not just public ones, one might stretch it a little, and could, for instance, walk around and see if delivery bays or employee entrances are posted too.

SECTION 23‑31‑235. Sign requirements.



(A) Notwithstanding any other provision of this article, any requirement of or allowance for the posting of signs prohibiting the carrying of a concealable weapon upon any premises shall only be satisfied by a sign expressing the prohibition in both written language interdict and universal sign language.



(B) All signs must be posted at each entrance into a building where a concealable weapon permit holder is prohibited from carrying a concealable weapon and must be:

(1) clearly visible from outside the building;

(2) eight inches wide by twelve inches tall in size;

(3) contain the words “NO CONCEALABLE WEAPONS ALLOWED” in black one‑inch tall uppercase type at the bottom of the sign and centered between the lateral edges of the sign;

(4) contain a black silhouette of a handgun inside a circle seven inches in diameter with a diagonal line that runs from the lower left to the upper right at a forty‑five degree angle from the horizontal;

(5) a diameter of a circle; and

(6) placed not less than forty inches and not more than sixty inches from the bottom of the building’s entrance door.



(C) If the premises where concealable weapons are prohibited does not have doors, then the signs contained in subsection (A) must be:

(1) thirty‑six inches wide by forty‑eight inches tall in size;

(2) contain the words “NO CONCEALABLE WEAPONS ALLOWED” in black three‑ inch tall uppercase type at the bottom of the sign and centered between the lateral edges of the sign;

(3) contain a black silhouette of a handgun inside a circle thirty‑four inches in diameter with a diagonal line that is two inches wide and runs from the lower left to the upper right at a forty‑five degree angle from the horizontal and must be a diameter of a circle whose circumference is two inches wide;

(4) placed not less than forty inches and not more than ninety‑six inches above the ground;

(5) posted in sufficient quantities to be clearly visible from any point of entry onto the premises.

That's directly from the regulation.

Look for those kind of loop holes that those ignorant :cuss: knuckleheads don't know about, and you'll be amazed at how many places are now legal to carry in.

Best to all. And while this is my first post here, I think, I've been reading here (lurking) quite a while. Great place, great people!
The Skwerl

carebear
October 22, 2006, 10:36 PM
The Sears Mall here has the same loophole, the entrances to Sears aren't posted and the entrance from Sears to the Mall proper isn't either.

Go Sears!

Trebor
October 23, 2006, 12:49 PM
The woman in Arizona who sued God for 100K after she was struck by lightning comes immediately to mind...



I have to ask: in what jurisdiction did she file, and how did she serve the defendant?

I don't remember the jurisdiction, but I do recall that, after a "careful and diligent search" the case was dismissed because "The court can not find evidence of God in this jurisdiction."

shooting time
October 23, 2006, 12:55 PM
I had to go tomy local costco friday and made it a point to look for signs which i did not find.maybe because it is in KENNESAW Ga. Where it's the law to have a gun

TexasRifleman
October 23, 2006, 01:40 PM
I'm becoming more and more convinced as this thread goes that the email was NOT corportate policy but the reply of one air headed moron working in customer service.

No one has seen a posted Costco in 4 pages of this that I can find.

Alan Fud
October 24, 2006, 04:22 AM
Except that one of their managers states IN WRITING and ON COMPANY LETTERHEAD (http://www.keepandbeararms.com/bruce_costco_letter.pdf) that it IS a corportate policy.

Malum Prohibitum
October 24, 2006, 10:33 AM
No signs in Georgia.

Robert Hairless
October 24, 2006, 01:23 PM
longeyes:

The simple fact is that corporations are part of The Problem. And not just as regards the Second Amendment. Do I have to mention their role in promoting open borders? Corporations are about top-down control and the botom-line, not the values of the Founding Fathers.

Juvenile twaddle. All manufacturers of firearms and ammunition are corporations, and so are their distributors and large retail outlets. The NRA is a corporation and so are its affiliates such as the ILA. Gun Owners of America is a corporation and so is the Second Amendment Foundation. Most grassroots pro-gun groups are corporations, such as Pro-Gun New Hampshire, Inc.

Corporations are simply legal entities, and there are many different kinds of corporations. They are not inherently pro-gun or anti-gun, nor are they inherently big or small, rich or poor, honest or crooked, good or bad, profitable or unprofitable.

A great many Americans own shares in corporations and depend upon them to feed, cloathe, and house them and their children. They aren't evil. Many of them belong to this and other forums focused on firearms and they would be financially devastated if corporations were destroyed or weakened by people who, operating from a basis of ignorance and prejudice, lump all corporations together and attack them as you do here.

You might as well say that firearms "are part of The Problem," attack them and the people who own them, and advocate that they be banned because some people misuse them.

carebear
October 24, 2006, 01:39 PM
Except that one of their managers states IN WRITING and ON COMPANY LETTERHEAD that it IS a corportate policy.

There's a lot of people in any company with the title "manager" and all of them have access to company letterhead. That doesn't mean they have any idea of corporate policy or any real authority to speak.

The Costco individual who replied to that letter you posted is an assistant store manager. I was one of those at 19 at Zales. Whoopdee frikkin' do.

Seeing that there are so many stores not posted, it is the least uniformly applied and easily and blatantly ignored "corporate policy" I've ever heard of. Regional and store General Manager's heads should be rolling across the country (say, every single one in Alaska for starters) at that kind of policy violation.

Even if it is a true policy, if it is going to be unenforced, I don't have to care until my store infringes on my right or I find out the company as a whole directly supports laws banning ownership. If they just don't, on paper, want guns on their private property, so be it.

MeanStreaker
October 25, 2006, 11:43 AM
I'm becoming more and more convinced as this thread goes that the email was NOT corportate policy but the reply of one air headed moron working in customer service.

No one has seen a posted Costco in 4 pages of this that I can find.

I can confirm that it is corporate policy. I called all four locations in Ohio yesterday asking about it. Every manager I talked to knew of it.

If you listen to last night's archived episode of NRANews.com's "Cam & Company", fast forward an hour and twenty minutes into the show for more info on this and Ohioans For Concealed Carry. You can listen until the next live broadcast begins Wed at 9 EDT.

TexasRifleman
October 25, 2006, 11:46 AM
I can confirm that it is corporate policy. I called all four locations in Ohio yesterday asking about it. Every manager I talked to knew of it.

Please show the confirmation in writing from a company website or document other than an email or hearsay.

If it's corporate policy it will be in writing somewhere. If it's not then it's not really corporate policy, just manager by manager which is an entirely different thing, or state by state, or region by region, however they do it.

If it is indeed corporate policy why do hardly any of the stores enforce their companies' policy?

Just hearing some folks say they talked to someone that said they knew doesn't really mean much, no offense.

carebear
October 25, 2006, 12:10 PM
meanstreaker,

I want to emphasize that I'm not doubting you or the other posters who have local stores that have signs up, nor am I saying you all weren't told that it was corporate policy by managers that work for Costco.

What I and others are saying is that if it really IS a nationwide corporate policy, the corporation is not enforcing it in what appears to be a sizeable group of states.

That is not something corporations do, policy is policy and people get in trouble for breaking it. Since there are obvious and numerous violations (like all the stores in the entire State of Alaska not being posted) it really casts doubt on the claims of those individual managers you have talked to that it is really a nationwide policy.

Unisaw
December 22, 2006, 01:35 PM
The following recent incident at a Costco store in Spokane doesn't help our cause:

Shoppers flee after gunshot in Costco restroom

By The Associated Press


SPOKANE - Shoppers began fleeing a Costco store Thursday after a man in a restroom stall dropped his pistol, accidentally firing a bullet into the wall, a Spokane County sheriff's spokesman said.

The 59-year-old man, who was not identified by the sheriff's office, was released after deputies determined he had a valid concealed weapon permit and hadn't broken any laws.

Deputies said the man was carrying the .357-caliber semiautomatic pistol in a shoulder holster, but it fell out while he was in a restroom stall around noon on Thursday, Sgt. Dave Reagan said in a statement.

Another patron in the restroom alerted store employees after looking over the stall to find the gun owner fumbling with the pistol. Costco workers began evacuating the building, and deputies were called to the scene.

Authorities said the pistol was designed not to misfire when dropped, and deputies suggested the owner have it checked for defects.

They also said the ammunition was several years old, and the bullet that was fired did not manage to penetrate the restroom wall.

mljdeckard
December 22, 2006, 01:39 PM
I haven't been to Costco here in Ogden for a while, but they didn't have a sign up when I was there.

Can'thavenuthingood
December 22, 2006, 04:36 PM
They also said the ammunition was several years old, and the bullet that was fired did not manage to penetrate the restroom wall.


Great, so now I have to go an freshen up my ammo stocks with new stuff so I can get the proper penetration.

Here in California this wouldn't have happened because the state has provided us with an approved list of guns that are drop tested for just this occurence.
They are taking care of us, with the states help we will out live everyone.:D

Vick

birdv
December 22, 2006, 04:40 PM
In Texas it must be a 30.06 sign

.45 AUTO
December 23, 2006, 12:03 PM
Firearms always "enhance" my shopping experience.:D

George S.
December 23, 2006, 03:31 PM
Except that one of their managers states IN WRITING and ON COMPANY LETTERHEAD that it IS a corportate policy.

After reading the letter, I think that the store manager that wrote it is either new to the corporation or he is not as informed as he should be (or wants to be).

First of all, COSTCO is a corporation headquarted in Washington state so a letter written on company letterhead with a Minnesota address and phone number is coming from a specific store or a regional office.

The letter says in part that COSTO is a private membership club with restriction on who can become a member. That simply is not true. While you do need a merbership card to purchase items at the store, anyone can become a member of COSTCO simply by going to the store, fill out the application form and pay the membership fee. That is clearly stated at the stores and on the company website. You can even join online!.

And here in WA, state laws says you do not even have to be a member of COSTCO to get a prescription filled at the pharmacy. Show your prescription to the door checker and you go right in. You pay at the pharmacy, not through the checkout lines.

The COSTCO website www.costco.com does not have any information there that holds up what was written in that letter with regards to carrying a concealed weapon. The author of the letter is IMHO, "speaking out of turn" and he appears to be basing the "rules" on his personal beliefs and not necessiarily any specific corporate policy.

Meanstreaker- Calling stores in Ohio may give you an idea of what Ohio stores and their managers do or understand in terms of operating their stores, the only way to fully confirm any COSTCO policy on firearms is to contact the corporate headquarters in Seattle. Their address is:
COSTCO
PO Box 34331
Seattle, WA 98124

You may be told that there is a corporate policy of restricting firearms, but it's entirely possible that that decision is left up to the individual stores.

I have never seen any sort of "no firearms" signage in the Washington and Oregon stores whee I have shopped.

Gunrnr
December 23, 2006, 04:29 PM
Well that relly BLOWS! I didn't notice a sign at the Costco on Alexander Blvd., in Albuquerque, but I might have missed it, too. The Sam's Clubs and WWs are and have been posted for some time...DESPITE the fact that the very first CCL-Holder shooting in New Mexico occurred at a WW, while a WW EMPLOYEE was in the process of being stabbed by her SO inside the store and a 70-ish year-old CCL man saved her flippin' life!

In NM, it is illegal to carry on the premisis of a business which posts, and can lead to charges and loss of license.

...go figure~!

gunsmith
December 23, 2006, 09:16 PM
an article , a ccw dropped his gun, which went bang at a costco
in Washington state somewhere.
afaik hewasn't charged with anything.

in NV they can post but all it means is you are tresspassing if you don't leave when asked.

Spreadfire Arms
December 23, 2006, 09:36 PM
funny, im in CA at the moment and i went to Costco 2 days ago and didn't see a sign there. nevertheless i carried in their beloved store. i guess it wasn't a big deal because nobody noticed.

i should have requested that they carry ammo by the case though. i'm sure they would have pooped in their shorts.

Unisaw
December 23, 2006, 09:50 PM
Gunsmith, that would be post #109.

bogie
December 23, 2006, 10:06 PM
1) Talk to the manager's manager. Talk to corp headquarters. Tell 'em you plan to shop at Sam's.

2) DEFINITELY talk to the area/region folks of ANY wally world or sam's club that posts. That is NOT their company policy.

leadcounsel
January 6, 2007, 06:12 PM
I'd be interested to see if courts would enforce civil liability toward a business that prohibited shoppers from arming themselves and were later hurt by an armed assailant on the shoppers property... sort of like a premisis liability theory. I suppose the business would have to know or should know that armed assailant hurt people on their property. Or, alternately, if you complied and left your gun in your car and it was stolen would the store be liable for the theft (which was predictable) or any injuries resulting from it. Possibly on the theft, probably not on the injuries. Just a thought though.

Aguila Blanca
January 7, 2007, 01:58 AM
I will point out however, we get all up in arms about this sort of thing, but the next time you go to your local gun store look at what they have on the door. I know here in GA, especially in the Atlanta area, that they have absolutely no loaded firearms are allowed signs on their doors. Maybe we should clean up our ranks before we go crusading against the antis.
Yep. The indoor range where I shoot has a "No loaded firearms beyond this point" sign at the entrance door. The sign pre-dates the current ownership, who did NOT have a similar sign at the door when it was just a gun shop. None of the regular customers pays any attention, the owner knows it, and the customers know that he knows it.

But the insurance company wants the sign.

It's like the signs in auto repair shops that say "No customers in shop area." I've never yet been in a dealership that tried to stop me from talking to the mechanic working on my vehicle, to see what he was finding. But having the sign is an insurance requirement. I guess the insurance people think at least some people will be deterred by the silly signs.

thrasher64
January 7, 2007, 05:05 AM
No signs here at my 3 local Costco's and I carry in each (concealed)

But even if its policy its not going to stop me till the have a metal detector at the entrance :neener:

tellner
January 7, 2007, 05:47 AM
No signs at any of the Costcos we go to.

I wouldn't completely blame them, though. After the recent "I was playing with my gun in the bathroom and it went off" debacle it's not hard to understand why "Someone could have been killed, and we're the nearest deep pocket" would trump "By gum it's my gawd-given right to carry this thing anywhere I want, and don't you forget it!" It doesn't take too many idiots to ruin things for the decent people when there's real money at stake.

veloce851
January 7, 2007, 11:45 AM
I'm actually happy to see more and more businesses posting signs prohibiting CCWs.

Because it's beginning to create a niche market for future business owners.

How many of you would leave a current staple business in favor of one that actually encourages CCW?

I'd gladly pay a small percentage premium to support a business that supported my 2A rights.

murph50
January 7, 2007, 12:11 PM
I've been carrying at my Costco for the last couple years. I had heard about this policy through one of our state gun orgs. Last week I found the sign --high above an inside entry door. I decided to talk to the manager about this. Unfortunately they have quite a few managers so I kept this ones name in case it's needed. She told me that firearms where not allowed unless you had a permit--then it's ok--that seems reasonable I guess--BTW I do have a CCW.
Also noticed on the state gun org site that another Costco on the other side of town had repented and removed the no gun sign.
NOTE:the sign at my Costco says no weapons/guns or sharp/pointy objects.This place sells knives and utility knives and Leathermans etc. so what's the deal with that?My self defense rig includes gun and knife and will continue to do so unless I'm informed otherwise and at that point my Costco membership will end.
Note again: This store has no armed security what-so -ever. Not in the store or the parking lot. Doesn't seem prudent in this day and age.

F4GIB
January 7, 2007, 12:43 PM
There is a sign at the COSTCO store in St. Louis Park, Minnesota. But not other nearby stores.

Posting seems to be a manager's choice.
The COMPANY's anti-gun policy is not.

You can continue buying there (because you save a dime) but if so, you are contributing to the anti-gun cause. I don't shop at COSTCO.

Shovelhead
January 7, 2007, 12:59 PM
I haven't seen any signs at the Costco in Fairfax County, (Ox Road) location.
I've CC'ed in there on many occasions.

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